Why play a Rogue?

[Argo]

I've played Rogues almost exclusively for the past 15 years (I've played a Halfling Rogue daggerthrower, a Gnome Rogue Conman and Forger, a Whisper Gnome wandmonkey, a Human Rogue dual-wielder of handaxes, an Elf Rogue Archer, a Dwarf Rogue Trapsmith, an Orc Rogue athlete who sneak attacks with a Greatsword, and every other combination you can think of).

But in sitting down to build my Rogue for my first game of 5th edition, I'm truly confused. Why play this class?

Sneak Attack can now only be performed with "finesse weapons", so forget about making use of a high Strength score to be worth anything in combat. And only with the first attack, so forget Two-Weapon Fighting.

Skill points are gone, having been replaced by proficiencies, which basically everyone has. So forget about being useful outside of combat. Expertise lets you be extra good at 2 things, though, which I guess is good.

Use Magic Device is only available at level 13, so forget about using wands.

The Criminal Background gives any character who takes it proficiency with Stealth, Deception and Thieves' Tools, which is basically everything a Rogue is "needed" for.

So why shouldn't I play a Monk or a Warlock or a Barbarian or a Sorcerer with a Criminal Background, and basically trade away double proficiency bonus on 2 skills for an entire suite of class abilities, and STILL be able to do everything a Rogue can do?

What makes the Rogue special in 5th edition that I'm not seeing? What has happened to my favorite class?

[Scirocco]

The Rogue's previous role of trap-disabler has been removed, to be sure, but you still get to be an excellent skill-monkey (along with the bard) eventually becoming really good at four skills. Sneak-attacking works perfectly well at range thus enabling a sniper role should you so desire, and in melee you can now add Dex to damage, which with SA will allow you to inflict significant damage with just finesse weapons.

Other than that you've go the three archetypes - the boring, classic "Thief", the party face and master striker "Assassin", and the master of magic-stealing stuff (plus excellent Illusion/Enchantment casting) in the form of the Arcane Trickster.

They took the rogue's most uninteresting class feature (trap-finding) and put it under a tool/skill proficiencies that anyone could pick up, and that's a good thing.

Edit: Two Weapon fighting is just bad in this edition, for everyone, not just Rogues.

[Rallicus]

Expertise, being able to disengage as a bonus action at level 2, sneak attack, thief's reflexes, uncanny dodge...

Yes, other classes can nab a background and become good at "thievish" (wow this is actually a word?) stuff. This is actually a good thing, in my opinion; it emphasizes the fact that the rogue is a class, not necessarily a way of life. That means even a wizard can be a criminal, B&E'ing peoples' homes and being a conniving little monster. It also means that you don't have to have a spellcaster with knock or a bard or rogue in your party for the DM to add traps, locked doors, etc.

[Ghost Nappa]

There are only 18 skills in the game. Rogue is guaranteed 6 of them.


You'll get four from a decent sized list from Rogue, 2 from your background, and potentially some more from Race.

Elves can get Perception.
Variant Humans get 1 of their choice.
Half-Elves get 2 of their choice.
Half-Orcs get Intimidation.

So basically, you can very easily get 8 out of the 18 skills in the game by playing a Half-Elf Rogue. That is literally the most in the game at Level 1. (Bards get 1 less but have a lot more freedom with what they pick.) The only way to get more would be to multi-class to Bard at some point after Rogue 1.

This is ignoring all of the other benefits of Rogue.

[hawklost]

The Disengage action and Dash action have saved my Rogue more often than I can count. At least every game session that we have a fight in, I have used Disengage to pull back and shoot enemies or even charge in, strike one and then hop back behind the tank.

The group is joking around a lot making fun of my character for acting like a hyperactive rabbit with all the hopping around he does in combat.

Dash has been used multiple times to allow my character to get through a narrow area where the party is effectively blocking the way. I can either scout out way in front and then get back to the party in a round when I see something that I need to report (sure, they know I am there then) or I can get through a bottleneck area much easier than the rest of the party to allow more freedom of movement.

[hawklost]

There are only 18 skills in the game. Rogue is guaranteed 6 of them.


You'll get four from a decent sized list from Rogue, 2 from your background, and potentially some more from Race.

Elves can get Perception.
Variant Humans get 1 of their choice.
Half-Elves get 2 of their choice.
Half-Orcs get Intimidation.

So basically, you can very easily get 8 out of the 18 skills in the game by playing a Half-Elf Rogue. That is literally the most in the game at Level 1. (Bards get 1 less but have a lot more freedom with what they pick.) The only way to get more would be to multi-class to Bard at some point after Rogue 1.

This is ignoring all of the other benefits of Rogue.

Or Multi-class Cleric (Knowledge domain). That also gives you 2 extra.

Somewhere around here is a thread with a way to get all 18 skills by level 7, assuming you can take feats.
EDIT: Here it is http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369324-Lowest-level-build-to-gain-proficiency-in-all-skills

[Oscredwin]

TWF means you can take a second attempt at SA if you miss, cunning action means you have something else to do with your bonus action if you hit with your main attack. This gets them two shots at their main attack mode (Sneak Attack) which, in addition to them having advantage a lot, makes them crazy accurate.

[Gnomes2169]

Well let's see... Sneak attack, cunning action, evasion, uncanny dodge, taking 10 on literally every skill check, deciding that (once a day) you do not fail a d20 roll, slippery mind, free blindsense (10' of it) and elusive... Oh, and cunning action. I cannot emphasize enough how awesome it is. All day long, you can use your bonus action to dash, disengage or hide and you give yourself advantage on attacks for free all day, every day? Ummmm... Yes?

Sneak attack is still a great source of DPS, though you can only apply it once/ turn now. It's still one of the best single-attack burst damage effects in the game (making it absolutely ruinous for casters at high level, as it will wreck their concentration checks), and it puts your DPR close to that of a fighter if the fighter hits with all of his attacks. With the ability to get advantage on the attack roll from cunning action (via use of the hide action and clever use of cover) you are likely going to land your sneak attack, and automatically qualify for sneak attack if you have advantage or your melee buddy is adjacent to the critter you are shooting.

Cunning action makes you batman. Rule #1 of life is always be batman.

Evasion and uncanny dodge together basically make it so attacks against you won't be all that likely to burn away all of your HP too quickly. Evasion being a passive 1/2 or 0 damage on a dex save (depending on how you roll), and uncanny dodge being 1/2 damage from a successful weapon attack as a reaction. Whick, looking at late game weapon attacks in the MM, is a very, very nice feature to have, even for creatures with only melee attacks. (Melee creatures will typically be able to close the gap...).

For other defensive bonuses, look at slippery mind (free proficiency in Wisdom saving throws) and Elusive (no one ever has advantage against you. Ever).

Taking 10 and an auto-success are self-explanitory as far as being awesome goes, in my proffessional opinion.

Note, of all these things, only evasion and uncanny dodge are shared by other classes... And rogues are the only ones to get both. Oh, and they get another ability score increase over the other classes you listed, so better stats/ more feats.

Note, this is without any of the subclass features, which just make your rogue that much better and unique... And you're asking why one should play a rogue? Really?

Also, I don't get what you mean by your strength/ finness weapon comment. The change buffs the rogue in every way, at no cost to the class from a 3.5/ PF perspective (Rogues can now literally ignore str as it does nothing for their damage, allowing them to focus purely on their dex+whatever mental score they choose). So... I'm a little confused by the comment, to say the least.

[Argo]

Also, I don't get what you mean by your strength/ finness weapon comment. The change buffs the rogue in every way, at no cost to the class from a 3.5/ PF perspective (Rogues can now literally ignore str as it does nothing for their damage, allowing them to focus purely on their dex+whatever mental score they choose). So... I'm a little confused by the comment, to say the least.

Meaning that since you can only sneak attack with a finesse weapon, you're restricted to using rapiers and daggers instead of being able to use any weapon you choose. In 3.5 a level one Rogue could use their level 1 feat to gain proficiency in any weapon and then use it to sneak attack. Greatsword, Greataxe, Spiked Chain, Great Falchion. Or be an Elf and Sneak Attack with a Longsword and Longbow.

In 5e, the Rogue is proficient with the Longsword, but you can't sneak attack with it.

Being able to ignore strength is good, from a point-buy perspective. But since the RAW way to generate ability scores in 5e is random roll, what does a high strength score do for me? I have an 18 in Dex and a 16 in Str, and it's either totally useless, or I ignore my class's signature combat ability.

[Sartharina]

I've played Rogues almost exclusively for the past 15 years (I've played a Halfling Rogue daggerthrower, a Gnome Rogue Conman and Forger, a Whisper Gnome wandmonkey, a Human Rogue dual-wielder of handaxes, an Elf Rogue Archer, a Dwarf Rogue Trapsmith, an Orc Rogue athlete who sneak attacks with a Greatsword, and every other combination you can think of).

But in sitting down to build my Rogue for my first game of 5th edition, I'm truly confused. Why play this class?

Sneak Attack can now only be performed with "finesse weapons", so forget about making use of a high Strength score to be worth anything in combat. And only with the first attack, so forget Two-Weapon Fighting.

Skill points are gone, having been replaced by proficiencies, which basically everyone has. So forget about being useful outside of combat. Expertise lets you be extra good at 2 things, though, which I guess is good.

Use Magic Device is only available at level 13, so forget about using wands.

The Criminal Background gives any character who takes it proficiency with Stealth, Deception and Thieves' Tools, which is basically everything a Rogue is "needed" for.

So why shouldn't I play a Monk or a Warlock or a Barbarian or a Sorcerer with a Criminal Background, and basically trade away double proficiency bonus on 2 skills for an entire suite of class abilities, and STILL be able to do everything a Rogue can do?

What makes the Rogue special in 5th edition that I'm not seeing? What has happened to my favorite class?
1. You don't need STR at all - You get DEX to damage with Finesse Weapons, and only two-handed weapons deal more damage than Finesse weapons baseline. Your Sneak Attack damage keeps pace or even exceeds the damage output of extra attacks. It also works at any range, against any target. You can Sneak-Attack snipe someone from as far away as you care if you can get advantage against them - a Sharpshooter Assassin can kill someone from 600 feet away with a Sneak Attack, for example.
2. You get more skills than everyone else, and two of those are excellent (To the point of almost trivializing the d20 roll at high levels). You don't NEED to take the Criminal background to have proficiency with Thieves Tools. You also get Skill Mastery, which removes the lower half of the die.

You also gain unmatched mobility, thanks to the ability to hide, disengage, dash, or offhand attack every round as a Bonus action. You can hide in combat, serving as a potent lurker, chase down anyone, and escape at a whim. Burglars get even crazier, with the ability to snatch or use items as a bonus action.

You also gain Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, giving you nearly unmatched survivability.

[1of3]

Actually, anyone can use wands. The UMD feature help with scrolls, but if they are willing to roll and maybe burn the scroll without effect, anyone else can use scrolls, too. So the feature does not do very much, unless there are special items in the campaign, like relics from ancient bloodlines that only work with descendents and stuff like that.

But assassins doing the assinating have the highest single target damage in the game at level 19.

[charlesk]

Well for me the answer is simply "because it's fun". I only got to play one for three levels, but it was still pretty neat.

I went human for the Mobility feat at level 1, and with the extra dash action at level 2 I was giving the DM fits. Then at level 3 I got fire bolt, and our DM ruled that SA damage could apply to spells, and I was not exactly the weakest member of the party.

Plus fun with illusions, skills, etc. And at higher levels, mobility and evasion.

I'm no expert but I enjoyed the class and with some higher level illusions would have been a riot. Oh and the special mage hand is neat too. :) A 5-die cantrip with 9 SA dice on it would be nothing to sneeze at.

[hawklost]

Meaning that since you can only sneak attack with a finesse weapon, you're restricted to using rapiers and daggers instead of being able to use any weapon you choose. In 3.5 a level one Rogue could use their level 1 feat to gain proficiency in any weapon and then use it to sneak attack. Greatsword, Greataxe, Spiked Chain, Great Falchion. Or be an Elf and Sneak Attack with a Longsword and Longbow.

In 5e, the Rogue is proficient with the Longsword, but you can't sneak attack with it.

Being able to ignore strength is good, from a point-buy perspective. But since the RAW way to generate ability scores in 5e is random roll, what does a high strength score do for me? I have an 18 in Dex and a 16 in Str, and it's either totally useless, or I ignore my class's signature combat ability.

3.5 Sneak Attack
- Target must be denied Dex bonus
- OR Rogue must be flanking
- Creature must be alive and have a discernible anatomy (No undead or Constructs or Plants ect)
-- Sneak Attack damage is not multiplied when Crit
- Can get sneak attack every attack in a round (if meeting restrictions)

5e Sneak Attack
- Ally must be within 5 feet of target (threatening) - Better than before
- Any time the Rogue has Advantage on the attack - Better than before
- Weapon Must be Finesse Weapon - More Restrictive
- Can Attack Any Creature (including Undead/Plants) - Better than before
- Sneak Attack damage multiplies with Crit -- much better than before
- Can only get 1 sneak attack a Round (if meeting restrictions) - More Restrictive

Seems like for Sneak Attack, the Rogue is better in 5e than 3.5

[Sartharina]

Being able to ignore strength is good, from a point-buy perspective. But since the RAW way to generate ability scores in 5e is random roll, what does a high strength score do for me? I have an 18 in Dex and a 16 in Str, and it's either totally useless, or I ignore my class's signature combat ability.Well... if you're lucky enough to have a 16 in what should be a dump stat (Meaning your CON, INT, CHA, and possibly WIS should be above 16 as well) it still gives a bonus to Athletics checks, knocking people around/down in combat, carrying Phat Lewtz, and other goodies. You can blame the inability to Sneak Attack with non-Finesse weapons on Other Players, who bitched about it during the playtest.

Oh yeah - STR also determines the distance you can jump. A STR 16 Rogue can jump 6 more feet further than a STR 10 Rogue. This can be valuable for mobility (Especially if you're a Halfling.)

[hawklost]

You can also get your Athletics check up with such a high Str score and make one of your expertise into Athletics. You now have the best shove effect of any person, easily beating out a Fighter. (Shove can knock down an enemy or push them back)

[Argo]

Well... if you're lucky enough to have a 16 in what should be a dump stat (Meaning your CON, INT, CHA, and possibly WIS should be above 16 as well) it still gives a bonus to Athletics checks, knocking people around/down in combat, carrying Phat Lewtz, and other goodies. You can blame the inability to Sneak Attack with non-Finesse weapons on Other Players, who bitched about it during the playtest.

I was using that to make a point, and can move that 16 to another ability. I put it there initially when I rolled, before reading all the descriptions of how everything works because of my character concept of a warrior from a tribe that values physical prowess and death in battle above all else who had been exiled from his tribe in dishonor when it was revealed that he carried an illness, and forced to resort to a life of crime. I was thinking about a physically powerful and athletic rogue who would sneak attack with a polearm, with Con as my dumpstat. But that seems to be impossible in this edition, and so I have to rethink my concept.

[Gnomes2169]

Meaning that since you can only sneak attack with a finesse weapon, you're restricted to using rapiers and daggers instead of being able to use any weapon you choose. In 3.5 a level one Rogue could use their level 1 feat to gain proficiency in any weapon and then use it to sneak attack. Greatsword, Greataxe, Spiked Chain, Great Falchion. Or be an Elf and Sneak Attack with a Longsword and Longbow.

In 5e, the Rogue is proficient with the Longsword, but you can't sneak attack with it.

Being able to ignore strength is good, from a point-buy perspective. But since the RAW way to generate ability scores in 5e is random roll, what does a high strength score do for me? I have an 18 in Dex and a 16 in Str, and it's either totally useless, or I ignore my class's signature combat ability.

The answer to your question is simple: Put your 16 somewhere else. Unless you are a pack mule for the party, you have no need or desire for a high str score as a rogue. I would suggest constitution, as those saving throws are murder...

[Sartharina]

I was using that to make a point, and can move that 16 to another ability. I put it there initially when I rolled, before reading all the descriptions of how everything works because of my character concept of a warrior from a tribe that values physical prowess and death in battle above all else who had been exiled from his tribe in dishonor when it was revealed that he carried an illness, and forced to resort to a life of crime. I was thinking about a physically powerful and athletic rogue who would sneak attack with a polearm, with Con as my dumpstat. But that seems to be impossible in this edition, and so I have to rethink my concept.You can request to be able to make Sneak Attacks with any weapon you're proficient with from your GM.

[Theodoxus]

Just a point of fact, since it wasn't brought up and while it might be irrelevant to the build, should at least be pointed out: Finesse weapons can use Strength or Dexterity to hit/damage. So having a High Strength rogue to emulate whatever (maybe you wanted a dwarf and armor proficiencies...) isn't detrimental to sneak attack.

[Theodoxus]

I was using that to make a point, and can move that 16 to another ability. I put it there initially when I rolled, before reading all the descriptions of how everything works because of my character concept of a warrior from a tribe that values physical prowess and death in battle above all else who had been exiled from his tribe in dishonor when it was revealed that he carried an illness, and forced to resort to a life of crime. I was thinking about a physically powerful and athletic rogue who would sneak attack with a polearm, with Con as my dumpstat. But that seems to be impossible in this edition, and so I have to rethink my concept.

So... you come here, asking why anyone would play a rogue, when you actually mean, why would anyone play a rogue that can't sneak attack? Just because there's essentially one build (the backstabbing two handed weapon using powerbuilder) that isn't supported by 5th Ed, the whole class just stinks?

Since my favorite character I ever played was a halfling rogue/barbarian with a greatsword - I can see where you're coming from. I can't recreate my favorite toon either. I didn't come bitching to the boards about the fact that my combo doesn't work (even worse than yours, since halflings get disad with heavy weapons). I accepted it, and looked at what the class does offer and built a similar concept that took the fun parts of the character and meshed them with the fun parts of the class.

It wasn't until I was really looking at the longsword and realizing that using it two handed provided the same damage as a small greatsword in 3rd, that I finally grokked that I could play the same little guy... just without sneak - or a kindly GM (a definitive possibility).

[Sidmen]

I was using that to make a point, and can move that 16 to another ability. I put it there initially when I rolled, before reading all the descriptions of how everything works because of my character concept of a warrior from a tribe that values physical prowess and death in battle above all else who had been exiled from his tribe in dishonor when it was revealed that he carried an illness, and forced to resort to a life of crime. I was thinking about a physically powerful and athletic rogue who would sneak attack with a polearm, with Con as my dumpstat. But that seems to be impossible in this edition, and so I have to rethink my concept.

Or use the classes/backgrounds that actually fit your concept. Seriously, you may as well be complaining about the Wizard not fitting this concept.

I read your concept and immediately said "Criminal Fighter". You're a warrior from a tribe that values physical prowess. That right there points me directly to Fighter and Barbarian. Then you swivel to being dishonored exile forced into a life of crime. That points to the criminal background.

[Oscredwin]

I was using that to make a point, and can move that 16 to another ability. I put it there initially when I rolled, before reading all the descriptions of how everything works because of my character concept of a warrior from a tribe that values physical prowess and death in battle above all else who had been exiled from his tribe in dishonor when it was revealed that he carried an illness, and forced to resort to a life of crime. I was thinking about a physically powerful and athletic rogue who would sneak attack with a polearm, with Con as my dumpstat. But that seems to be impossible in this edition, and so I have to rethink my concept.

Have you considered a barbarian with a criminal background (I suggest wearing armor)? That sounds like it would fit your concept in this edition.

[rollingForInit]

1. You don't need STR at all - You get DEX to damage with Finesse Weapons, and only two-handed weapons deal more damage than Finesse weapons baseline. Your Sneak Attack damage keeps pace or even exceeds the damage output of extra attacks. It also works at any range, against any target. You can Sneak-Attack snipe someone from as far away as you care if you can get advantage against them - a Sharpshooter Assassin can kill someone from 600 feet away with a Sneak Attack, for example.



So... you come here, asking why anyone would play a rogue, when you actually mean, why would anyone play a rogue that can't sneak attack? Just because there's essentially one build (the backstabbing two handed weapon using powerbuilder) that isn't supported by 5th Ed, the whole class just stinks?


I think what Argo meant is that a whole lineup of builds are no longer viable, both from a mechanical point-of-view (no being able to wield larger weapons) and also from an RP-PoV since you can no longer play, say, a brutish ruffian who's a rogue and relies on strength. Because having someone like that run around with a rapier sounds a bit silly (to me at least). Whereas dual-wielding battleaxes or having a longsword definitely feels more appropriate. Basically, the rogue must be a dexterous, agile character.

Personally, if I were the DM, I'd houserule and allow any weapon wielded in one hand to qualify for sneak attack. I'd say that a two-handed weapon (such as a greataxe) doesn't feel very sneaky, but a battleaxe in one hand (or one in each)? Sure, why not, and it doesn't deal more damage than a rapier anyway.

Aside from that, I think the rogue class is freaking awesome in this edition.

[Ellington]

Here's some selling points:

- Great at skill checks, arguably the best (bard being the other contender)
- Sneak attack gives you decent damage and promotes unconventional approaches to a fight, which some people find exciting
- Cunning action gives you a bunch of options not available to any other class
- Amazing subclasses (in my opinion the best ones of them all): Thief that offers a bunch of utility and cunning action becomes limited only by your imagination, assassin which can blow people up before a fight starts and the arcane trickster which gains access to the most powerful tool in d&d: magic

Out of all the Player's Handbook classes I think the Rogue is my favorite, much better than previous iterations. I for one am happy you don't need to dual wield, for example, to optimize your damage output as was the case in 3.5.

[Easy_Lee]

Can anyone confirm that sneak attack damage is untyped? I'd assume it falls under the same heading as the weapon that dealt it, but if my memory serves, it's not specified.

If untyped, sneak attack is now one of the most consistent sources of damage in the game. It's equally useful against everything so long as you have advantage or an ally within 5'. That's nothing to scoff at.

Thief rogues are hard to catch, able to steal just about anything, and eventually able to use any magic item they ever find. Having a Jarlaxle is nothing to scoff at either. It's worth noting that thieves eventually taking a bonus surprise round is functionally superior to assassins getting a guaranteed crit round: you double your average damage either way, but the thief gets an additional bonus and move.

Cunning action, as stated, is very useful. It's made rogue a popular dip, and assassin has made rogue an even more popular dip.

Other classes can do many of the same things, but rogues get them very early and, with expertise, very consistently. The value of not needing to roll cannot be overstated. The value of not needing to rest often cannot be quantified.

There are many reasons to like rogue this edition, particularly the crossbow expert type.

[Argo]

I think what Argo meant is that a whole lineup of builds are no longer viable, both from a mechanical point-of-view (no being able to wield larger weapons) and also from an RP-PoV since you can no longer play, say, a brutish ruffian who's a rogue and relies on strength. Because having someone like that run around with a rapier sounds a bit silly (to me at least). Whereas dual-wielding battleaxes or having a longsword definitely feels more appropriate. Basically, the rogue must be a dexterous, agile character.

That's exactly what I meant.

I do have to say, though, that most of the responses that you all have offered up have shown me that the Rogue in 5th e is indeed a class with a lot of freedom, and not necessarily a locked-down, limited shadow of its former self.

[Argo]

Also, when making the OP I hadn't read far enough to get to page 198 where it breaks down combat, so I didn't know what a "bonus action" was or how cool that would be. I had assumed it would be like being able to take an extra "Sudden Action" or whatever it was in 3.5 instead of being able to have every turn essentially be 1.5 turns. That's pretty amazing.

[Person_Man]

Why play a 5E Rogue? Cunning Action, Assassinate, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and eventually Elusive. Those are the cool semi-unique things a Rogue can do that other classes can't do. You're very mobile, have solid damage output, you eventually become very tanky. Your Skills and Expertise are also useful, especially at low levels, though in some cases their usefulness can replaced by certain spells (Pass Without Trace and the Bard's inspiration abilities being the most notable examples). The Rogue is currently my favorite non-full caster class. (With my favorite caster classes currently being the Warlock and Druid, though the Bard and Sorcerer are arguably the most powerful).

[Sartharina]

I do have to say, though, that most of the responses that you all have offered up have shown me that the Rogue in 5th e is indeed a class with a lot of freedom, and not necessarily a locked-down, limited shadow of its former self.
The 5e rogue really exemplifies the Classic Rogue very well as well. In 3.5e, in order to play as a dagger master, you needed about a million-billion feats (Point Blank Shot for Everything, Weapon Focus to offset ****ty BAB, Weapon Finesse, and Two-weapon Fighting come to mind) just to get off the ground, and you'd almost never get a Sneak Attack - and you NEEDED to get multiple Sneak Attacks per round to keep up with anyone else who's optimized, which lead to all sorts of munchkin bull**** like Blinking Flask Rogues (or "Stabbing from Behind Curtain" rogues) and most monsters were immune to sneak attack anyway. And setting up sneak attacks was obnoxiously hard. And while they had a fair number of skill points, 12 of their 8 were already locked into Open Lock, Disable Device, Move Silently, Hide, Spot, Search, Listen, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, Balance, Use Magic Device, and Bluff.

[Boci]

The 5e rogue really exemplifies the Classic Rogue very well as well. In 3.5e, in order to play as a dagger master, you needed about a million-billion feats (Point Blank Shot for Everything, Weapon Focus to offset ****ty BAB, Weapon Finesse, and Two-weapon Fighting come to mind)

You are not wrong that rogues in 3.5 needed a lot of feats, but some of those are questionable. You definitely did not need weapon focus, ditto on point blank shot. You only needed those if they were for preqs, the +1 to hit (and 1 damage for PBS) alone certainly was not worth a feat. You needed two weapon fighting and weapon finesse, quickdraw, ect.

[Sartharina]

You are not wrong that rogues in 3.5 needed a lot of feats, but some of those are questionable. You definitely did not need weapon focus, ditto on point blank shot. You only needed those if they were for preqs, the +1 to hit (and 1 damage for PBS) alone certainly was not worth a feat. You needed two weapon fighting and weapon finesse, quickdraw, ect.
Point Blank Shot's needed for Far Shot (To get a dagger's range to something respectable) and Precise Shot (So you can throw into melee).

[Boci]

Point Blank Shot's needed for Far Shot (To get a dagger's range to something respectable) and Precise Shot (So you can throw into melee).

Far shot is of questionable use. Precise shot is nice, but there were way of getting that without burning two feats. The bigger problem was that it was difficult to be good at melee and range in 3.5, and you would get much better results from specializing in one and having maybe a couple of options for the latter if it ever came up. If 5e let's a rogue do both easier then that's a good feature.

[LtDarien]

5e Sneak Attack
- Can only get 1 sneak attack a Round (if meeting restrictions) - More Restrictive


Just want to point out that Sneak Attack is once per turn not once per round, so you can get Sneak Attack with reactions (Opportunity Attack) as well.

[Easy_Lee]

Not that it's relevant to 5e, but for 3.5, the rogue / master thrower using halfling skiprocks was close to as optimized as it was possible to get for a sneak attacking rogue.

- attacks target touch (MT class feature)
- sleight of hand to ignore dex and qualify for sneak attack (MT, they didn't see you throw it)
- good range
- throw two rocks at once every attack (MT), two sneak attacks per throw
- rocks hit an additional nearby target, which counts as an additional attack and qualifies for sneak attack by RAW (skiprock)
- ask your DM to let you imbue a pouch with returning from which to throw your rocks, ignore the rule that says ammo is destroyed on use or argue that the rocks are a weapon and not ammo

Basically, the character always attacks AC 10, gets up to four attacks per thrown rock (minimum 2, double dice), always gets sneak attack if the target isn't immune, and attacks from range. Very impressive once it came online in the early teens.

[BW022]

But in sitting down to build my Rogue for my first game of 5th edition, I'm truly confused. Why play this class?


In all likelihood, you shouldn't play a rogue. Most players play certain classes because it best represents their style, likes, or concept in a character... not because it gives you something with no penalties.



Sneak Attack can now only be performed with "finesse weapons", so forget about making use of a high Strength score to be worth anything in combat. And only with the first attack, so forget Two-Weapon Fighting.


High strength works fine with finesse weapons. You can use either your strength or dexterity bonus with them. No... you can't sneak attack with a longsword or two-handed weapon. This makes logical sense. If you absolutely can't stand the fact you don't get an extra 1 hp of damage per attack... don't play the rogue or any two-weapon fighting character.

I fail to see how minor mechanics affect your concept of a character, or why only 5E mechanics now make a class unplayable? Did you similarly refuse to play a 3.5 rogue because you had to have someone exactly opposite you to get flanking? Did you refuges to play a 3.5 rogue because you had to take two-weapon fighting as a feat and suffered penalties to attacks and off-hand damage?

Sorry... if your concept is you want to be attacking with two-weapons... fine. Attack with two weapons. If you allow the mechanics of the game to prevent you from selecting a concept... that's your fault. You are either building a character you want to play -- and darn whether it is optimal (in whatever bizarre way you think you can determine that mathematically) or you are going to try to make some strange character based solely on numbers. I personally think the later is a fools errand given the complexity and diversity of D&D encounters... let alone the fact it is a roleplaying game and an intelligent player will always outperform an average player regardless of how optimized their characters are.



Skill points are gone, having been replaced by proficiencies, which basically everyone has. So forget about being useful outside of combat. Expertise lets you be extra good at 2 things, though, which I guess is good.

Use Magic Device is only available at level 13, so forget about using wands.

The Criminal Background gives any character who takes it proficiency with Stealth, Deception and Thieves' Tools, which is basically everything a Rogue is "needed" for.


And did you refuse to play 3.5, because bards had access to all the rogue skills? Monks and rangers had most of them, anyone could cross class skills, multi-classing immediately gave you access to skills, and various feats also gave you access to skills? Lots of classes had access to stealth, search, open locks, disable devices, etc. I don't see any big difference here.

The simple fact is that a 5E rogue is simply likely to be better at those skills -- and doesn't have to take certain backgrounds or feats to gain access to those skills.



So why shouldn't I play a Monk or a Warlock or a Barbarian or a Sorcerer with a Criminal Background, and basically trade away double proficiency bonus on 2 skills for an entire suite of class abilities, and STILL be able to do everything a Rogue can do?


You probably shouldn't. If a rogue to you means the ability to have stealth and open locks... then you can play any class which has access to those skills.

Others will pick classes which best represent their character concepts and play styles. If I want to be a nomadic scout... I don't see my character as fighting with fists or no armor (no monk), casting spells (warlock), raging and swinging large weapons (barbarian), unarmed and casting spells (sorcerer), etc. so... I'll play rogue with the outlander background.

The fact that you have to select a criminal background to make your 'rogue'.. immediately excludes every non-criminal character concept? How about a noble con-artist? How about a gnome guild member? A sailor? A religious apprentice of a trickery god?



What makes the Rogue special in 5th edition that I'm not seeing? What has happened to my favorite class?

Absolutely nothing. All classes are merely a representation of a set of skills and abilities which best reflects a base to use as your character concept. If your character concept is too far removed from one class... play another.

If you don't care about your character concept and you simply want to make the character who you think is the most powerful (by whatever criteria you choose)... then play whatever class you like. If you think that a barbarian with the criminal background is more powerful than a rogue... and that's what a character means to you... then by all means play one.

IMO, all character classes are roughly balanced in power. Certainly enough that they are likely to overwhelm play as per 3.5 and are typically well within the skill/experience level of the players to counter. If you play a rogue and someone else players a barbarian/criminal... I seriously doubt the barbarian will outshine you.

[Sartharina]

If 5e let's a rogue do both easier then that's a good feature.It does, fortunately!

[Strill]

Sneak Attack can now only be performed with "finesse weapons", so forget about making use of a high Strength score to be worth anything in combat. And only with the first attack, so forget Two-Weapon Fighting.Finesse weapons can use either STR or DEX for damage, although there's no reason to go with STR over DEX apart from novelty. Two-weapon fighting gives you better accuracy in case your first attack misses.


Skill points are gone, having been replaced by proficiencies, which basically everyone has. So forget about being useful outside of combat. Expertise lets you be extra good at 2 things, though, which I guess is good.You're greatly underestimating Expertise. It's incredibly powerful and trivializes skill checks.


Use Magic Device is only available at level 13, so forget about using wands.Wands are usable by anyone. Use Magic Device is for scrolls and other arcane thingamabobs.


The Criminal Background gives any character who takes it proficiency with Stealth, Deception and Thieves' Tools, which is basically everything a Rogue is "needed" for.

So why shouldn't I play a Monk or a Warlock or a Barbarian or a Sorcerer with a Criminal Background, and basically trade away double proficiency bonus on 2 skills for an entire suite of class abilities, and STILL be able to do everything a Rogue can do?Because they don't have nearly as much DEX, and they don't 'get expertise. Rogues only require DEX and CON, which makes them exceptional since the vast majority of classes require three attributes.


What makes the Rogue special in 5th edition that I'm not seeing? What has happened to my favorite class?Sneak Attack damage on par with other damage-dealers, high accuracy due to ease of getting Advantage, and only needing to land one sneak attack per turn. Extreme mobility due to Cunning Action. Incredibly powerful skills due to Expertise.