"I'm a Lizard Woman from the Dawn of Time..."

[Red Fel]

... And this is my character build.

Hello again, my duckies! It's time for another hopefully entertaining build thread! The goal of this one is to create Madame Vastra from the BBC's Doctor Who. But in D&D, which will be sort of the same, except completely different.

First, some background for the non-watchers of the show, in spoilers.


So, what's a Silurian, you ask? Well, it's this.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/41/Silurians_2010.jpg/275px-Silurians_2010.jpg

Silurians are an ancient reptilian people, Homo reptilia, who inhabited the Earth prior to the rise of humanity. As the dinosaurs reached their twilight, the Silurians went underground - literally. They sealed themselves in underground hibernation. Periodically, this hibernation was disturbed, and Silurian colonies wrestled with their conflicting desires - the desire to live in peace with other lifeforms, and the desire to take back the surface that is rightfully theirs from the inferior apes abusing the planet.

Silurians are highly intelligent, well-advanced, and gifted warriors. They are skilled with melee and ranged weaponry, and possess a tongue with which they can lash out, similar to a frog's, that can deliver a powerful venom.


So who is Madame Vastra?

http://www.whensallymetsally.co.uk/files/9513/5648/4428/Madame-Vastra.jpg
Good evening. I'm a lizard woman from the dawn of time.

Madame Vastra is a Silurian who has settled comfortably into Victorian society, owning a stately home which is managed by her maid-slash-wife, and her butler, a genetically engineered soldier from outer space serving penance as a nurse. All perfectly normal. She is exceptionally intelligent, provides detective services to Scotland Yard, and is used by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle as the model for his character Sherlock Holmes. (Doyle omits the part about Holmes being a lizard woman with a wife and potato-alien butler.) She is also exceptionally canny with regard to people, very discerning of emotions and truths, and quite handy with a blade.
With introductions out of the way, let's begin.

If I were playing this character in PF, it would be remarkably easy. Take Grippli (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-grippli), add Agile Tongue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/agile-tongue-grippli), go with a Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) for martial combat and delivery of touch spells with the tongue. Maybe throw in Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage) (Shadow (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/shadow-bloodline) or similar) for kicks. I'm still open to suggestions on that point, though; being a tiny frog person isn't as, hmm, elegant as I'd like.

Playing 3.5, on the other hand, becomes both simple and complicated. Simple, because there are many options that touch on what I'm looking for. Complicated, because there are so many options, none of them precisely what I want. Kobolds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm) are a classic go-to option for lizard people, but then again, they're Kobolds. Lizardfolk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lizardfolk.htm) are an option, but they have an Int penalty and an LA. Skarn and Rilkans are options, but they look more like people with scaley-bits, not like people with actual scales. Diabolus might be an entertaining choice, as they look monstrous and have that poisoned tail bit, but the LA makes them embarrassing. Dragonborn template is an option as well, but doesn't quite hit the nail on the head. And again, none of these people have a tongue attack (or reasonable facsimile thereof). On the other hand, classes are fairly straightforward; Duskblade or Warblade could do quite nicely for a character who's extremely intelligent but also combat-capable.

So, bringing it around to you: Let's brainstorm. Let's figure out how to build Madame Vastra, or at least an adequate expy. What we need: Reptilian, or at least monstrous in appearance. Tongue attack, or similar. Highly intelligent, but also melee-capable. Classy.
And, of course, the rules: Sources: PF or 3.0/3.5. No mixing. If PF, no third party, except for DSP. Preference given for materials available on the PF SRD. If 3.0/3.5, no Dragon Magazine. Dragon Compendium okay. Classes: Any. Must have martial ability. Ideally, Int-focused, but not mandatory. Races: Any, but as mentioned above, must have reptilian appearance. Levels: Any. Alignment: Any Good. Cheese: Playable. (No Pun-Pun, DCS, or TO.)
The goal is to take an entertaining television character concept and turn it into a functional and enjoyable tabletop character. Ready, then?

Pencils up, and... Begin!

[dysprosium]

Could you add the reptilian template from Savage Species to a human as a start? At least then the character would look the part.

Forked Tongue feat from Serpent Kingdoms?

Just as a very rough start.

[Red Fel]

Could you add the reptilian template from Savage Species to a human as a start? At least then the character would look the part.

Hmm... I have Savage Species back at home, I'll take a look at the stats when I get there. That's LA +2, right?

I seem to recall a Chameleon template somewhere else. Adds Reptilian subtype, adds a 10' tongue attack too. There's an option.


Forked Tongue feat from Serpent Kingdoms?

As I recall, Forked Tongue doesn't actually give you any kind of attack, just a bonus to Bluff and verbal spells. Relevant, but not vital. Still, you're right, it's a start.

[Ironsides]

Well if we are allowing Dreamscarred Press material I would go with Warder and more specifically the Zweihander Sentinel Archetype. Since Madame Vastra likes Katanas I would bend the rules a bit and add the Bushi template to the Zweihander Sentinel Archetype. This adds proficiency with Katanas and the Bushido code Honesty gives her the ability to discern lies and helps her investigative abilities.

My build would be something like this:
This build focuses on wielding a Katana two-handed.
Martial Disciplines: Scarlet Throne (Sense Motive), Iron Tortoise (Bluff), Golden Lion (Diplomacy), Mithril Current (Perform (Dance))
25 point buy
STR: 14 DEX: 10 CON: 12 INT: 18 WIS: 10 CHA: 10
Skill points: 8
Alternative Racial Trait: Toxic Skin
LVL 1: Quick Draw(<- from Bushi Template), Agile Tongue (Grippli),
LVL 3: Bushido Honesty (<- from Template), Martial Charge
Then choose Advanced Study feats for additional maneuvers/stances.

Madame Vastra always struck me as someone who likes to investigate things but could also take out bad guys whenever the need arose. Also the class skills of this build really mesh well with what you want to do socially. Hope you like it.

[Boci]

The Daelkyr Half-Blood race from Magic of Eberron could fit. As an aberration they can look non-human, and the tongue could be a symbiot, but without some minor mechanical tweaks it won't be a perfect fit.

[ranagrande]

Speaking of Savage Species, the Anthropomorphic Lizard has no LA or racial HD. The Anthropomorphic Large and Huge Vipers also have no LA, but the have 2 and 3 HD respectively. Monstrous Humanoid HD are decent though.

For the tongue attack, you could pick up the Mohrg's Tongue graft from Libris Mortis.

[Red Fel]

Okay. First, checked out the Reptilian template in SS. LA +2, which hurts. Adds Reptilian subtype, +2 nat AC, claws, senses, physical stats. It's nice from a flavor standpoint, although it lacks the special attack; a little less nice from an optimization standpoint. But worth noting.


Well if we are allowing Dreamscarred Press material I would go with Warder and more specifically the Zweihander Sentinel Archetype. Since Madame Vastra likes Katanas I would bend the rules a bit and add the Bushi template to the Zweihander Sentinel Archetype. This adds proficiency with Katanas and the Bushido code Honesty gives her the ability to discern lies and helps her investigative abilities.

Ooh, this is exciting. I haven't looked much in depth into the new PoW stuff. Let's see... Warder is the Int-based tanky build, right? And as for the archetype... I like it. Lose shields, but gain AC if you're two-handing. Lose Bluff, but gain Sense Motive (great for Vastra). Fun stuff.


My build would be something like this:
This build focuses on wielding a Katana two-handed.
Martial Disciplines: Scarlet Throne (Sense Motive), Iron Tortoise (Bluff), Golden Lion (Diplomacy), Mithril Current (Perform (Dance))
25 point buy
STR: 14 DEX: 10 CON: 12 INT: 18 WIS: 10 CHA: 10
Skill points: 8
Alternative Racial Trait: Toxic Skin
LVL 1: Quick Draw(<- from Bushi Template), Agile Tongue (Grippli),
LVL 3: Bushido Honesty (<- from Template), Martial Charge
Then choose Advanced Study feats for additional maneuvers/stances.

Madame Vastra always struck me as someone who likes to investigate things but could also take out bad guys whenever the need arose. Also the class skills of this build really mesh well with what you want to do socially. Hope you like it.

I do indeed like! I don't know about the Bushi template (like I said, new to PoW), but it makes sense. Admittedly, the racial -2 Str hurts, but overall I think you got a really good feel for the character. My only real concern is that unless there is a maneuver that specifically applies a debuff on a touch attack, Agile Tongue isn't going to do all that much. But overall, it definitely captures the feel.


The Daelkyr Half-Blood race from Magic of Eberron could fit. As an aberration they can look non-human, and the tongue could be a symbiot, but without some minor mechanical tweaks it won't be a perfect fit.

Hmm... As I recall, Daelkyr Half-Bloods just look like pale humans with an odd affinity for bugs. But fair point. And I'm pretty sure that the Tongueworm symbiont is precisely as described - a creature that lives in the mouth of the host and launches a paralytic poisonous barb. Good call!


Speaking of Savage Species, the Anthropomorphic Lizard has no LA or racial HD. The Anthropomorphic Large and Huge Vipers also have no LA, but the have 2 and 3 HD respectively. Monstrous Humanoid HD are decent though.

For the tongue attack, you could pick up the Mohrg's Tongue graft from Libris Mortis.

Let's see... Anthropomorphic Lizard is a Small with no HD or LA, nice. (Anthro Giant Lizard is Med, but +2 LA and an additional 2 HD.) And I see the vipers there too. Yeah, I'd like to avoid HD if possible; LA could potentially be bought off, but HD are forever. Further, the Lizard has massive penalties to Str and Cha, only 20 speed, and no real features to speak of. It does grant Weapon Finesse, though, so that's nice. Overall... I think the general rule is that most Anthro Animals aren't worth it, really. Still, fair point.

And excellent point with Mohrg's Tongue. Ignoring for the moment the fact that you're taking a terrifying piece of a terrifying animated rotting corpse and sewing it into your mouth, it fits the bill quite nicely!

[Urpriest]

The Chameleon template is from Underdark. It's LA +1, and grants large stealth bonuses and a tongue attack. The tongue doesn't have a built-in debuff, but essentially gives you a touch attack with 10ft reach that you can use to layer on spells or the like. If you get immune to poison somehow, you could just douse it in poison, alternatively, Poison Spell metamagic feat on some gish build.

[Ironsides]

I think that Zweihander Sentinel losing Bluff instead of Acrobatics as a class skill is a copy and paste error. From the PDF it says that "The Broken Blade’s associated skill is Acrobatics, and its associated weapon groups are close, monk, and natural (page 28)." Which leads to "The Iron Tortoise discipline’s associated skill is Bluff, and its associated weapon groups are axes, heavy blades, and close weapons (page 28)."

"The warder gains access to the Scarlet Throne discipline and loses access to Broken Blade. Bluff is no longer a class skill; Sense Motive is now a class skill (page 129)."

"Armament Shield (Ex): When wielding a onehanded weapon in two hands or a two-handed weapon, the weapon is treated as a light shield for the purposes of performing a shield bash attack on an opponent. The warder smashes with the butt of a spear-haft, the pommel of a greatsword, or the broadside of her axe. All are essentially the same and are treated as light shields for the purposes of shieldbash attacks or martial maneuvers to be used with a weapon of this type (such as Iron Tortoise maneuvers that require a shield to function)(page 129)."

The I added the bold portions for emphasis. I think that originally that Iron Tortoise was removed but the designers added it back in at the last moment but forgot to change the relevant class skill.

[Red Fel]

The Chameleon template is from Underdark. It's LA +1, and grants large stealth bonuses and a tongue attack. The tongue doesn't have a built-in debuff, but essentially gives you a touch attack with 10ft reach that you can use to layer on spells or the like. If you get immune to poison somehow, you could just douse it in poison, alternatively, Poison Spell metamagic feat on some gish build.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Doesn't it also grant the Reptilian subtype? Frankly, that's a pretty great winner, right there, assuming LA buyoff.


I think that Zweihander Sentinel losing Bluff instead of Acrobatics as a class skill is a copy and paste error. From the PDF it says that "The Broken Blade’s associated skill is Acrobatics, and its associated weapon groups are close, monk, and natural (page 28)." Which leads to "The Iron Tortoise discipline’s associated skill is Bluff, and its associated weapon groups are axes, heavy blades, and close weapons (page 28)."

"The warder gains access to the Scarlet Throne discipline and loses access to Broken Blade. Bluff is no longer a class skill; Sense Motive is now a class skill (page 129)."

"Armament Shield (Ex): When wielding a onehanded weapon in two hands or a two-handed weapon, the weapon is treated as a light shield for the purposes of performing a shield bash attack on an opponent. The warder smashes with the butt of a spear-haft, the pommel of a greatsword, or the broadside of her axe. All are essentially the same and are treated as light shields for the purposes of shieldbash attacks or martial maneuvers to be used with a weapon of this type (such as Iron Tortoise maneuvers that require a shield to function)(page 129)."

The I added the bold portions for emphasis. I think that originally that Iron Tortoise was removed but the designers added it back in at the last moment but forgot to change the relevant class skill.

That does definitely make things better. Frankly, I see a social-and-investigation-oriented Vastra getting more use out of Bluff than out of Acrobatics. On the other hand, in continuity, the character tends to be quite blunt. ("There are two refreshments in your world the color of red wine. This... is not red wine.") But Bluff also has combat applications (feint), which is good for a character like her. So I'd call it a net positive.

[Xerlith]

I would go with a Dragonborn (Mind) Fire Elf Factotum 8/Warblade12.

That fits both her early warlike nature and the vast skillset she displays later.

And I don't think the tongue attack is really worth it. She uses it once, maybe twice throughout the series. I'd just fluff it as an unarmed attack vs a flatfooted (Sapphire Nightmare Blade?) foe and not try to overflavor that. Then again, that IS a part of the character...

[Bronk]

This is pretty interesting... but which Vastra are we talking about? The poor lady is continually getting nerfed. Here's what I would go with:

Race:
I think the best race for her would be a Yuan-ti Pureblood. It fits pretty well, since there are so many types of Silurians, their history and timelines are so muddled, and likewise the Yuan-ti were created with a slew of other reptilian races by the Sarrukh long ago. They look pretty much spot on... humanoid with reptillian features, which could include a snakelike tongue. They also get four racial hit dice, blind fight and alertness as bonus feats, bonus intelligence, and have sneaky skills which fit Vastra's entire Silurian tough and stealthy subrace well.

Class:
Rogue all the way. The class fits her sneaky style very well: Stealth, sneak attack, evasion, and special abilities like slippery mind are good for her. Maybe one level of Aristocrat for flavor and to account for her extensive and rich estate.

Particular Feats:
Wedded to History: She's been around a long time... most of it was probably in hibernation, but she's still very long lived.
Leadership: She has her wife, Jenny, as a Thief/Assassin type cohort and a lot of connections throughout her city.
Wild Cohort: Her other companion, the Sontaran warrior, was dumb as a post even before dying and being reanimated a couple of days too late, but now he's basically a smallish dire ape wearing custom armor and a very minor int boost paired with a pearl of speech.

Particular Skills to have:
Use Magic Device: All that advanced technology is now comprised of magic items.
Lucid Dreaming: She has that dream tech as well.

Particular Skills to not have:
Sense Motive: She always believes in the Doctor, buys into his lies wholeheartedly, and generally misinterprets the motives of others.

Magic Items (known):
Sometimes has a pair of brilliant energy swords, sometimes normal swords.
Sometimes has a blaster: perhaps a shrunken staff of 'disintegrate'.
Magical apparatus of dream communication
Sleep potions
Access to Strax's healing device.

[Boci]

This is pretty interesting... but which Vastra are we talking about? The poor lady is continually getting nerfed. Here's what I would go with:

Race:
I think the best race for her would be a Yuan-ti Pureblood.

That ECL+6 though, meaning the game needs to start at level 7+ for you to play her. The 4 racial hitdie will prevent her from dying to a stray arrow, but it will delay class features. Furthermore she get's no skill points for the 2 LA, and the 4 hitdie are monstrous humanoid, granting her a measly 2 skills, so 14 in total, + whatever her class gives. That is at best 26 (+8 for a level in rogue, +4 for int) for a 7th level character who needs a lot of skills.

[Telonius]

If you're open to homebrew, I put together an ancient Lizardfolk race for the campaign I'm currently running. They're basically a Silurian stand-in. I called them the Marru (being the mysterious race that created Sandstorm's "Marruspawn," and giving the opportunity for some Whovian pyramid-diving). The stats are as a regular Lizardfolk, except:

+3 Natural AC (replaces +5)
+2 Str, +2 Int, -2 Dex (replaces standard lizardfolk stat adjustments)
No racial hitdice

(I don't use Favored Class or multiclass XP penalties, but I'd put them down as Favored Class: Any).

[Phelix-Mu]

If you're open to homebrew, I put together an ancient Lizardfolk race for the campaign I'm currently running. They're basically a Silurian stand-in. I called them the Marru (being the mysterious race that created Sandstorm's "Marruspawn," and giving the opportunity for some Whovian pyramid-diving).

Are you aware of the villain from 5th Doctor called "the Mara?" Might be a nice tie in, for anyone that actually gets such vintage jokes (seriously dating myself here). That villain even had a giant-snake true form. The original episode, unless I miss my mark, was "The Kinda." Man, rather depressing that I can't actually be sure of that.

[Bronk]

Are you aware of the villain from 5th Doctor called "the Mara?" Might be a nice tie in, for anyone that actually gets such vintage jokes (seriously dating myself here). That villain even had a giant-snake true form. The original episode, unless I miss my mark, was "The Kinda." Man, rather depressing that I can't actually be sure of that.

Without looking it up, I'm pretty sure that's one of the Mara episodes. That could be a shapechanging race though (with lucid dreaming?), since sometimes it's a wee snake, sometime's it's a giant snake, and sometimes it's a bunch of old people and a creepy clown. Fun times!

[Phelix-Mu]

Without looking it up, I'm pretty sure that's one of the Mara episodes. That could be a shapechanging race though (with lucid dreaming?), since sometimes it's a wee snake, sometime's it's a giant snake, and sometimes it's a bunch of old people and a creepy clown. Fun times!

Honestly, those were some of the trippiest Who episodes of that regeneration (one of my favs). And the one from the future, with the old man and the snake. Man, don't watch that stuff while high/sleepy/alone in the dark. Serious confusing dream fodder.

[Bronk]

Honestly, those were some of the trippiest Who episodes of that regeneration (one of my favs). And the one from the future, with the old man and the snake. Man, don't watch that stuff while high/sleepy/alone in the dark. Serious confusing dream fodder.

The ones that gave me nightmares as a kid were the Zygons and the spiders from the third doctor's last episodes...

[Phelix-Mu]

The ones that gave me nightmares as a kid were the Zygons and the spiders from the third doctor's last episodes...

Yeah. Lol, spiders on the back. And with that weird voice. And the guy can't quite see it, but he knows it was there. Super creepy.

The episode with the superintelligent bacteria that was going to take over the world, until the Doctor nanoscaled in there and saved the day (notable for being the episode where the Doctor got K-9). That one freaked me out back in the day.

Anyway, apologies, Red Fel. Some hardcore Whovian stuff just happened, but we'll let you get on with your build experiment, lol.

[dysprosium]

Wedded to History is a good thematic feat but that is from Dragon Magazine 354.

Though the argument can be made for the inclusion of this one, it originates from a disallowed source. That would be up to Red Fel though.

[Red Fel]

I would go with a Dragonborn (Mind) Fire Elf Factotum 8/Warblade12.

That fits both her early warlike nature and the vast skillset she displays later.

And I don't think the tongue attack is really worth it. She uses it once, maybe twice throughout the series. I'd just fluff it as an unarmed attack vs a flatfooted (Sapphire Nightmare Blade?) foe and not try to overflavor that. Then again, that IS a part of the character...

Let me see... Dragonborn Fire Elf nets to +2 Int, -2 Cha, right? It does lose all of an elf's abilities (except, I think, weapon proficiencies) but Dragonborn gets the look. You do make a fair point about the tongue - she doesn't use it at all often - but I still feel like it has to be there. I love your class choices, however - Factotum and Warblade are really, really good for her character.


Race:
I think the best race for her would be a Yuan-ti Pureblood. It fits pretty well, since there are so many types of Silurians, their history and timelines are so muddled, and likewise the Yuan-ti were created with a slew of other reptilian races by the Sarrukh long ago. They look pretty much spot on... humanoid with reptillian features, which could include a snakelike tongue. They also get four racial hit dice, blind fight and alertness as bonus feats, bonus intelligence, and have sneaky skills which fit Vastra's entire Silurian tough and stealthy subrace well.

I'll let Boci answer this part:


That ECL+6 though, meaning the game needs to start at level 7+ for you to play her. The 4 racial hitdie will prevent her from dying to a stray arrow, but it will delay class features. Furthermore she get's no skill points for the 2 LA, and the 4 hitdie are monstrous humanoid, granting her a measly 2 skills, so 14 in total, + whatever her class gives. That is at best 26 (+8 for a level in rogue, +4 for int) for a 7th level character who needs a lot of skills.

Yeah. The adjustment hurts, a lot. I like Yuan-Ti for her, but I'd really prefer less of a leveling penalty. Moving on.


Class:
Rogue all the way. The class fits her sneaky style very well: Stealth, sneak attack, evasion, and special abilities like slippery mind are good for her. Maybe one level of Aristocrat for flavor and to account for her extensive and rich estate.

Hmm. On the one hand, Rogue does give the sneaky bits, SA, stealth, and skills. And that's good. On the other... Well, no. Let's be fair to Rogue here. When you reclassify her gear as magic devices (and I agree with that), having UMD is valuable. She gets to be a skillmonkey and decent face. It's not a terrible idea. And I agree that a level of Aristocrat isn't that bad, either. It's a fair cop.


Particular Feats:
Wedded to History: She's been around a long time... most of it was probably in hibernation, but she's still very long lived.
Leadership: She has her wife, Jenny, as a Thief/Assassin type cohort and a lot of connections throughout her city.
Wild Cohort: Her other companion, the Sontaran warrior, was dumb as a post even before dying and being reanimated a couple of days too late, but now he's basically a smallish dire ape wearing custom armor and a very minor int boost paired with a pearl of speech.

On the one hand, I'm generally averse to Leadership, one of the more bannable feats. On the other, you make a good point about her wife, and seeing Strax as a trained dire ape is just one of the funniest things I've read all day. My hat, it is no longer on.


Particular Skills to have:
Use Magic Device: All that advanced technology is now comprised of magic items.
Lucid Dreaming: She has that dream tech as well.

Agree, agree.


Particular Skills to not have:
Sense Motive: She always believes in the Doctor, buys into his lies wholeheartedly, and generally misinterprets the motives of others.

Disagree. Yes, she was confused when she first emerged from hibernation, and yes, she is a different species and Jenny helps her to better understand humans. But I wouldn't say she blindly believes the Doctor - she pushes him and is sensitive to his feelings. (For instance, the scenes in Demon's Run.) Further, she is keenly intuitive, as shown in her interview of Clara (the one-word test). Finally, she is a detective, and it's kind of hard to do that without a good Sense Motive roll.


Magic Items (known):
Sometimes has a pair of brilliant energy swords, sometimes normal swords.
Sometimes has a blaster: perhaps a shrunken staff of 'disintegrate'.
Magical apparatus of dream communication
Sleep potions
Access to Strax's healing device.

Excellent points!


If you're open to homebrew, I put together an ancient Lizardfolk race for the campaign I'm currently running. They're basically a Silurian stand-in. I called them the Marru (being the mysterious race that created Sandstorm's "Marruspawn," and giving the opportunity for some Whovian pyramid-diving).

I should have put that in the OP. I'd prefer to avoid homebrew if possible. Still, yours does look interesting.

I'm going to avoid quoting all of the subsequent Doctor Who posts, except to observe: Wasn't the Mara that thing that possessed Teegan at one point? Or am I thinking somebody else?


Anyway, apologies, Red Fel. Some hardcore Whovian stuff just happened, but we'll let you get on with your build experiment, lol.

None needed, chief. If this build thread didn't inspire Doctor-related tangents, I'd be disappointed.

So, where does that leave us? I think there's a general consensus that a PF Grippli is a good choice, either as a Magus or a Warder (Zweihander Sentinel). 3.5 does open up more, but it sounds as though possible options include: Chameleon template Yuan-Ti Pureblood (but man, do those adjustments hurt) Dragonborn Fire Elf Mohrg's Tongue graft or Tongueworm symbiont Rogue or Factotum/Warblade
Did I miss anything?

So, let's move forward. We have the pieces, let's start assembling them! Thoughts?

[paperarmor]

Disclaimer:(I've seen exactly one episode with her in it and didn't care for it. Liked her though.)
Maybe Neraph with the Chameleon Template on a Social focused Factotum? that way you get the tongue, lizardy appearance, Factotum awesomeness and outsider goodies.

Or refluff Changlings as the Dinofolk and build her with Changling Rogue Sub levels since people in victorian england somehow don't feak all kinds of crap out at her (Somehow) then she must have some alien mojo. An Changling Rogue because it just seems to fit a holmes type.

[Nettlekid]

I'm not sure about race, but as for class I think I'd go with something psionic like Psion, Psychic Warrior, Ardent, or Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b). An Int/Wis focus seems appropriate, many of the more intelligent creatures in the Doctor Who series have varying levels of psychic powers, and based on power selection you could have a lot of buffing powers which augment physical strength and dexterity. Plus you get to use the Glorytongue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20020925a) power, which I think works really well for the Silurian's tongue attack. Psychic Rogue probably fits best, since it's more Rogue than Psychic and offers good skills. While she's physically capable, she's much more about intrigue and tactics than outright strength and power.

[Red Fel]

I realized I forgot to comment on Wedded to History. Three things. First, it's Dragon Magazine, which means I'm automatically wary of it. Second, it tends to apply to a character who has lived through history, not one who has slept through it, although the argument can be made for some versions (e.g. Golden Ager). Third, I'm not particularly sure which of the backgrounds, if any, would be appropriate for Vastra. Golden Ager could explain her affinity for advanced or alien magical devices, Wanderer could give her useful skill boosts, but I'm not sure if any fit. Overall, flavorful, but I don't know about suitable.

Moving on.


Disclaimer:(I've seen exactly one episode with her in it and didn't care for it. Liked her though.)
Maybe Neraph with the Chameleon Template on a Social focused Factotum? that way you get the tongue, lizardy appearance, Factotum awesomeness and outsider goodies.

... Huh. Now there's a thought. I don't recall, are Neraphs LA +0? Because I'm totally okay with that. Basically, reptilian frog-person. Don't they have that neat blurring trick, too? Fits a Chameleon creature nicely. Intriguing.


Or refluff Changlings as the Dinofolk and build her with Changling Rogue Sub levels since people in victorian england somehow don't feak all kinds of crap out at her (Somehow) then she must have some alien mojo. An Changling Rogue because it just seems to fit a holmes type.

As I recall, she probably employs a combination of perception filters and reliance on the assumption of humans that aliens don't exist. And then she does something silly like announcing the title of this thread. But fair point with the Rogue bit.


I'm not sure about race, but as for class I think I'd go with something psionic like Psion, Psychic Warrior, Ardent, or Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b). An Int/Wis focus seems appropriate, many of the more intelligent creatures in the Doctor Who series have varying levels of psychic powers, and based on power selection you could have a lot of buffing powers which augment physical strength and dexterity. Plus you get to use the Glorytongue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20020925a) power, which I think works really well for the Silurian's tongue attack. Psychic Rogue probably fits best, since it's more Rogue than Psychic and offers good skills. While she's physically capable, she's much more about intrigue and tactics than outright strength and power.

Hmm. You know, you're right to a certain extent - a lot of Doctor Who aliens are psychic to some degree. Silurians, as I recall, are not, but psionics could be used to explain some of her abilities. PsyRogues are Int-based, which is great, and they get SA and some useful powers. They also have a very extensive skill list, which is excellent. I'm not that big a fan of that Glorytongue power, but it has some merit. That said, she seems a much more "mundane" (apart from being a reptilian humanoid with an envenomed tongue, a catburglar-maid for a wife, and a genetically engineered soldier-nurse for a butler) character, and I'd like to see what I can do with less casting.

If I were going with psionics, however, I think PsyRogue is precisely what the Doctor ordered.

[Vhaidara]

If you do go with Rogue, I would say go either Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17 or the reverse and pick up Daring Outlaw. I haven't seen any of the older doctors (<9), but I recall her being a very capable combatant. The Swashbuckler emphasizes her combat abilities by making her pretty Str independent (Dex to hit, Int to damage).

Generally, I would favor one of the following builds for her
Rogue 17/Swashbuckler 3
Swashuckler 17/Rogue 3
Factotum 8/Warblade 9/Swashbuckler 3
Factotum 8/Warblade 12

And, of course, if you can gestalt, just take your choice of Rogue/Swash and tack it onto Factotum/Warblade.

And Psy-Rogue can be subbed for regular Rogue

Racially, Reptilian Human is pretty spot on for the Silurians, and can be bought off at a reasonable level.

For the tongue, I present 2 ideas
1. Request it as a trade for the Claws you got from the template (the preferable way, but not guaranteed)
2. Refluff the Mohrg Tongue Graft as a Yuan-Ti instead of an Undead graft and make it a snake.

[Red Fel]

If you do go with Rogue, I would say go either Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17 or the reverse and pick up Daring Outlaw. I haven't seen any of the older doctors (<9), but I recall her being a very capable combatant. The Swashbuckler emphasizes her combat abilities by making her pretty Str independent (Dex to hit, Int to damage).

Knowledge of Classic Who is unnecessary; she debuted in the Matt Smith era. And I think you've got a good feel for her abilities, based on your suggestion.


Generally, I would favor one of the following builds for her
Rogue 17/Swashbuckler 3
Swashuckler 17/Rogue 3
Factotum 8/Warblade 9/Swashbuckler 3
Factotum 8/Warblade 12

I like Rogue 3/ Swash 17 more than Rogue 17/ Swash 3, simply because Swash progression gets me more than Rogue progression (apart from Rogue's skill points). I like Factotum and Warblade more than Rogue or Swashbuckler, because they do even more, and have a greater Int-focus. But I do like the possibility of a Swash dip for Int to damage.


And, of course, if you can gestalt, just take your choice of Rogue/Swash and tack it onto Factotum/Warblade.

I'd like to avoid gestalt, but I agree, that would be mighty handy indeed.


And Psy-Rogue can be subbed for regular Rogue

Very true. In theory, it might even qualify for Daring Outlaw.


Racially, Reptilian Human is pretty spot on for the Silurians, and can be bought off at a reasonable level.

For the tongue, I present 2 ideas
1. Request it as a trade for the Claws you got from the template (the preferable way, but not guaranteed)
2. Refluff the Mohrg Tongue Graft as a Yuan-Ti instead of an Undead graft and make it a snake.

It's certainly beefy, I'll agree, and the LA is small enough that buyoff can make reasonable work of it.

And you make a fair point about both the trade and the graft.

[Vhaidara]

She did? I was under the impression that she dropped somewhere before that. Not entirely sure why. Must rewatch.

Well, to do it with Psy Rogue, you would need to take Psy-Rogue to 4. And while it wouldn't stack your PR and Swash levels for anything, it would allow you to count your Swash levels as being Rogue levels for SA purposes (this logic is what causes SA Thug Fighter 3/Swash 3/Feat Rogue 14 nonsense).

The Factotum/Warblade is basically a higher power version for an "all books allowed" campaign. The Swash/Rogue is for if you have to try and deal with limited books (Core + Completes).

[Phelix-Mu]

Are you familiar with the older silurians materials? They are very informative to the Doctor's issues regarding Vastra and the rest of her race in the episode, was it...The Hungry Earth (I know that's the one that re-introduces the silurians generally)? They tried to make her story stand alone, but at the same time deal with some of the similar issues in that introductory episode (lizards v apes, racist/xenophobic behavior on both sides, etc).

I won't go into it here, but it's a very interesting history, and the old silurians eps (the longer eps, so an arc in 3rd and an arc in 5th, if I'm not mistaken) were classics. One of them was called Sea Devils, I think, the other is escaping me at the moment.

[Red Fel]

She did? I was under the impression that she dropped somewhere before that. Not entirely sure why. Must rewatch.

Silurians dropped lots of times (see below). And the actress who played Vastra, as I recall, played the Silurian sisters in The Hungry Earth. But Vastra first showed up later than that. When a Good Man Goes to War, I think.


Well, to do it with Psy Rogue, you would need to take Psy-Rogue to 4. And while it wouldn't stack your PR and Swash levels for anything, it would allow you to count your Swash levels as being Rogue levels for SA purposes (this logic is what causes SA Thug Fighter 3/Swash 3/Feat Rogue 14 nonsense).

The Factotum/Warblade is basically a higher power version for an "all books allowed" campaign. The Swash/Rogue is for if you have to try and deal with limited books (Core + Completes).

I gotcha. Yeah, I prefer Factotum/Warblade when possible, but I see your logic.


Are you familiar with the older silurians materials? They are very informative to the Doctor's issues regarding Vastra and the rest of her race in the episode, was it...The Hungry Earth (I know that's the one that re-introduces the silurians generally)? They tried to make her story stand alone, but at the same time deal with some of the similar issues in that introductory episode (lizards v apes, racist/xenophobic behavior on both sides, etc).

I won't go into it here, but it's a very interesting history, and the old silurians eps (the longer eps, so an arc in 3rd and an arc in 5th, if I'm not mistaken) were classics. One of them was called Sea Devils, I think, the other is escaping me at the moment.

I think you're right, both the third Doctor and the fifth encountered the Silurians. In fact, if memory serves, they were led by the same Silurian, who remembered the Doctor (by name, obviously not by face). Apart from the older and goofier costuming, the first appearance of the Silurians was very much like their appearance in The Hungry Earth, with an immediately aggressive response to the encroaching humans followed by conflicting desires for peaceful coexistence and surface dominance; in their later appearance, though, I believe they had become more warlike.

EDIT: As an aside, Third Doctor was one of my favorites, Fifth was one of my least favorites, and Matt Smith I found rather middling most of the time. But let's not diverge too sharply from the thread, hmm?

[Urpriest]

Incidentally, the PF version should almost certainly use the Investigator class, for a combination of detective-ness and PF's version of high tech in the form of Extracts.

[Red Fel]

Incidentally, the PF version should almost certainly use the Investigator class, for a combination of detective-ness and PF's version of high tech in the form of Extracts.

Ooh! The Investigator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator)! I actually hadn't given much thought to the hybrid classes (I'd heard they weren't splendid), but this one's promising. Highly Int-based, highly skill-based. Inspiration is a nice mechanic, and some of those talents are really quite nice. Good BAB, and Studied Strike for added damage, plus alchemy because why not.

I like some of the archetypes, too; Empiricist takes the Int-to-everything angle and turns it up to 11 (although it means not gaining poison use); and the Sleuth archetype replaces her alchemy1 use (which isn't all that much on the show) with exciting acrobatic and action abilities, which are better in line with her combat scenes. I'm pretty sure you can take both, too.

Great catch!

1 Disclaimer: I'm quite unfamiliar with the Alchemist and how extracts work (aside from the general "spell in potion form"), and am thus a bit wary of it.

[Vhaidara]

Yeah, Investigator is one of the good ones.

Alchemy is basically spells that can only be used on yourself (unless you take the Infusion discovery) that only take 1 minute to prepare. My Alchemists generally don't prepare any extracts (except maybe a CLW for stabilization purposes when I have Infusion), waiting to mix them when they're needed.

All said, the Investigator actually does a fair job of being the PF Factotum. Skillmonkey with a dash of the More-than-Natural (Alchemy replacing Arcane Dilettante)

[paperarmor]

Yup, Neraph is an La +0 race.

[Red Fel]

Okay. So it sounds like the 3.5 version basically builds itself. Factotum/ Warblade, maneuvers as normal, feats as normal, graft or symbiont; the only real trick is picking a race, and some excellent options have been pointed out.

I'd like to go into more detail on building the PF version. I think there's a general consensus that Grippli (with Agile Tongue) is a good choice. I've been going back and forth between Investigator and Warder, and while I love Warder's mechanics (and think it's probably a superior combat character), I think Investigator fits her just a bit better. Towards that end, I'd like your help building the character. So here's our baseline: Grippli Agile Tongue Investigator Sleuth archetype, possibly also Empiricist1 Eldritch Heritage2
So let's build this character from the ground up. Alternate racial traits are on the table (I'm thinking Princely, for the social bonuses). Let's figure out feats and talents.

Questions:
1 It occurs to me that Empiricist's capstone is strictly inferior to the class ability it replaces. True Inspiration (the default) allows the Investigator to use Inspiration on any skill check (even untrained) or ability check without spending Inspiration points; when he does spend Inspiration points, the bonus is increased. Master Intellect (Empiricist's replacement ability) merely allows the Investigator to use Inspiration on any skill check (even untrained) or ability check (including initiative) without spending Inspiration points, full stop, no additional bonus. That seems strictly inferior. Am I reading it correctly? (And yes, I'm aware that capstones are unlikely to be met, but it's still worth considering.)
2 Several Sorcerer Bloodlines allow a melee touch attack with a special effect, such as Sickened, Shaken, or Dazzled. The durations and additional nonlethal damage vary. For example, Shadow deals 1d4 nonlethal and dazzles the target (-1 to attack rolls and sight checks) for 1 minute, an outrageously long duration. Aquatic deals 1d6 nonlethal (lethal to certain enemies) and sickens the target (-2 to pretty much everything) for 1 round. The catch is that Eldritch Heritage requires the appropriate Skill Focus. For Shadow, that's Stealth, which is perfect; for Aquatic, that's Swim, which is mostly worthless and not a class skill. Thoughts?

[Bronk]

Are you familiar with the older silurians materials? They are very informative to the Doctor's issues regarding Vastra and the rest of her race in the episode, was it...The Hungry Earth (I know that's the one that re-introduces the silurians generally)? They tried to make her story stand alone, but at the same time deal with some of the similar issues in that introductory episode (lizards v apes, racist/xenophobic behavior on both sides, etc).

I won't go into it here, but it's a very interesting history, and the old silurians eps (the longer eps, so an arc in 3rd and an arc in 5th, if I'm not mistaken) were classics. One of them was called Sea Devils, I think, the other is escaping me at the moment.

The first one was 'Doctor Who and the Silurians'! That group of Silurians would be a great match for a psychic class since they had that glowing third eye on top of their heads that could fire mind blasts and such, plus I think they were telepathic.

[Shining Wrath]

Spellscale might be a start - humans with scales, also gives high charisma.

You might have to go Heroes of Horror (IIRC) to get a feat that lets you graft on the combat tongue.

Then follow a normal gish build.

[Vhaidara]

Actually, for PF, my recommendation would be something like Investigator 15/Warder 5, with levelling being like 3 Investigator, 1 Warder. The PoW classes kept the "non-initiator classes progress 1/2 initiator level" from ToB that made it so dip friendly. Those dips would get you a good spattering of maneuvers, as well as some good HD and BAB.

[Red Fel]

Actually, for PF, my recommendation would be something like Investigator 15/Warder 5, with levelling being like 3 Investigator, 1 Warder. The PoW classes kept the "non-initiator classes progress 1/2 initiator level" from ToB that made it so dip friendly. Those dips would get you a good spattering of maneuvers, as well as some good HD and BAB.

From an overall optimization standpoint, I agree that Warder makes the build a powerhouse. But, from a character standpoint, does Madame Vastra strike you as a Warder? Yes, she's a skilled combatant, but you get a moderate amount of that from Investigator. Does she actually strike you as a battlefield tactician, with heavy armor and all? Heck, were it not for the fact that the key stat is Int, I'd see a Sontaran as a Warder before I saw Vastra as one.

I don't mean to be dismissive; I agree that Warder lends a lot mechanically, and keeps the build combat-relevant. And I realize that, much like the Rogue can quickly lose combat relevance, an Investigator is semi-combat-capable early on, but rapidly falls behind. My question, however, is whether it fits the character.

[Vhaidara]

Well, PoW Expanded is going to have Mithril Current, which is (by my understanding) very Iiajutsu-esque. Further, trading out something like Iron Tortoise (not fitting) for something like Scarlet Throne (dueling) helps even further.

This is an option if you want a higher degree of combat proficiency. The Investigator/Warder kind of parallels the Factotum/Warblade, and I recommend Warder for much the same reason that you attach Warblade to Factotum. There is no rule making you wear heavy armor, you just know how to use it.

[Serafina]

Pathfinder also allows you to build your own races (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/creating-new-races). If you want to represent the tongue, there's the "sticky tongue" trait which gives a non-damaging natural weapon with 10 foot reach.

Of course, the Vishkanjas (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-vishkanyas) are already pretty much Silurians. For the Tongue, either get the GM to allow you to take the Grippli-fear, or an alternate racial trait that swaps out limber for "sticky tongue" x2. You could also ask to swap the subjects of weapon familiarity if you want to get katana proficiency.

My personal ideal Madame Vastra would look something like this:
Vishkanja with Tongue alternate racial trait and Weapon familiarity for Katana and Wakizashi, and the option to take the Half-Elf FCB for Investiagors (which is simply THE best one).
Most levels are in Investigator, with a short dip into Swashbuckler for Swashbucklers Finesse.
Take the Slashing Grace feat to use Swashbucklers Finesse with a Katana and gain Dex to damage.
For Investigator talents, take Expanded Inspiration, Underworld Inspiration and Amazing Inspiration to make better use of, well, Inspiration. Quick Study to enhance your combat prowess, sickening offensive if you want to debuff enemies. Don't take Combat Inspiration unless you take 19 levels of Investigator (for greater combat inspiration).
For additional tongue usage, Eldritch Heritage (Shadow) for a touch attack. Later, Improved EH for hiding while observed.
Taking Two-Weapon Fighting is a great idea, since you gain bonus damage from Studied Combat.


At level 11, this would give you 9 BAB, +3/9/7 saves, +5 insight bonus to attack and damage, Dexterity for attack and damage, 4th-level extracts, +4D6 studied strike, at least 7 uses of Investigation Dice at 1D8+2 (and the bonus always to plenty of skills), the ability to make melee touch attacks at 10 foot range and pull enemies towards you with your tongue and the ability to deal some non-lethal damage that way.