Defensive Cleric/Monk build?

[PangolinPie]

This is a real stretch for me and was something if a challenge from fellow players. I usually play the heavy damage dealers and rage machines in most games, so they gave me a task of coming up with an interesting but overall very non-confrontational type character. And since we're in need of a healer/buffer I came up with this unique idea...

What I'm going for is one of these spiritualist sages; the ones that mix religious understanding with honing their bodies endurance and defensive capabilities; like through tai-chi, contorionism, deep meditation etc. Maybe something involving going into a trance and being able to interact with the ethereal plane or astral projection as well; overall kinda like a far east prophet. I'm looking at a Dragonborn Human Passive Way Monk/Cleric build with any combat abilities being more defensive like disarming, tripping, stunning, evasion, all non-lethal methods. Any major boosts to AC obviously would also help tremendously. Pretty sure I can convince the GM to let me take an alternate breath weapon other than those provided for my dragon aspect like a cone of mist or some other non-lethal spell like ability.

I found a Dragon Magazine PRC called "Spirit Speaker" with decent divine spells and a form of astral projection that seems interesting but I'll have to see if my GM will let me continue spell progression past that point...

So yeah thats it...any ideas?

[infomatic]

What level? What books allowed?

Is Monk2/ClericX/SacredFist10 too easy? Or Monk2/SpiritShaman10/SacredFist8? Or simply OA Shaman 20?

All of those get Astral Projection the old-fashioned way: By casting it. All have monkish damage. Spirit Shaman also gets a Spirit Form ability.

[emeraldstreak]

Consider Saint template.

[Ellowryn]

Mystic Wanderer from Magic of Faerun gives you some odd things including Cha to AC, a familiar, and Gem Magic, at the expense of being able to use armor or shields.

Vow of Non-violence from the BoED gives your save dc's a good boost but limits you and the party from dealing real damage. Also in that book are some feats that turn your spell damage to non-lethal and some other stuff to boost subdual damage.

[PangolinPie]

We're starting at level 5 and right now I'm actually considering doing a Tashalatora build using Cleric, Monk, Ardent and Psychic Theurge with monastic training. I can pick mantles that are more defensive/buffing in nature.

[infomatic]

That's pretty rough at level 5. Why not just Monk1/Ardent4 and pick up Conflict, Fate & Life mantles (see if you can swap Vigor into Life mantle)

[Andion Isurand]

If you only need 1 or 2 levels of it, I would go for the Cloistered Cleric variant myself.

If flaws are allowed, I would check out Divine Gestures from Dragon 326 pg 91, which makes it so your divine spells incur spell failure like arcane spells do... which won't affect you since you'll be going Monk as well.

[PangolinPie]

That's pretty rough at level 5. Why not just Monk1/Ardent4 and pick up Conflict, Fate & Life mantles (see if you can swap Vigor into Life mantle)

Well its not like I want to be bad ass right out of the box. If I did Monk 1/Ardent 2/Cleric 2 or Shaman 2 to start out I'd be more of a healer until I got more levels in manifesting and divine casting via Psychic Theurge.


If you only need 1 or 2 levels of it, I would go for the Cloistered Cleric variant myself.

Is there some sort of spell or ability that would let me impart my knowledge bonus from Knowledge Devotion to other players?

[Gwendol]

You might want to look at the non-caster VoP build I made a while back:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?319183-3-5-Build-challenge-non-caster-VOP/page2&highlight=vop

It's not hard to tweak it towards other combat options than grappling and unarmed strikes (which naturally can be made using non-lethal damage).

[infomatic]

Well its not like I want to be bad ass right out of the box. If I did Monk 1/Ardent 2/Cleric 2 or Shaman 2 to start out I'd be more of a healer until I got more levels in manifesting and divine casting via Psychic Theurge.


Thing is, Monk1/Ardent2/Cleric2 isn't good at anything.

BAB +2, 1st level cleric spells when you should have 3rd level means you won't be much of a healer. With Practiced Manifester/Ardent trick you can get 3rd level powers, but even with 18 Wisdom you'll only have 10 power points, so you'll scarcely be able to use them. And you won't even have Talashatora yet, b/c you can't take that before 6th level b/c of skill requirements.

This build isn't going to start paying off until you get past level 10 (when you'll get Divine Power), and you'll still be very fragile.

Better to focus on Divine Puncher or Psychic Puncher -- either of those will have a much better power curve and let you focus on the areas you really want.

Why not Unarmed Swordsage2/CloisteredCleric1/Crusader2/RubyKnightVindicatorX? Use the Swordsage to pick up Setting Sun maneuvers.

EDIT: NM, not enough healing/buffing at level 5. However, Unarmed Swordsage2/Cleric3 could be a prefix, and there's a variant for RKV that'll let you sub out Devoted Spirit for another School, like Diamond Mind.

[PangolinPie]

Thing is, Monk1/Ardent2/Cleric2 isn't good at anything.

BAB +2, 1st level cleric spells when you should have 3rd level means you won't be much of a healer. With Practiced Manifester/Ardent trick you can get 3rd level powers, but even with 18 Wisdom you'll only have 10 power points, so you'll scarcely be able to use them. And you won't even have Talashatora yet, b/c you can't take that before 6th level b/c of skill requirements.

This build isn't going to start paying off until you get past level 10 (when you'll get Divine Power), and you'll still be very fragile.

Better to focus on Divine Puncher or Psychic Puncher -- either of those will have a much better power curve and let you focus on the areas you really want.

Why not Unarmed Swordsage2/CloisteredCleric1/Crusader2/RubyKnightVindicatorX? Use the Swordsage to pick up Setting Sun maneuvers.

EDIT: NM, not enough healing/buffing at level 5. However, Unarmed Swordsage2/Cleric3 could be a prefix, and there's a variant for RKV that'll let you sub out Devoted Spirit for another School, like Diamond Mind.

My GM isn't big on ToB....old school guy

What about Monk 1/Spirit Shaman 4 with Monastic Training? The druid spell list is a bit more versatile than cleric...could go into Sacred Fist later.

[Martimus Prime]

My GM isn't big on ToB....old school guy

What about Monk 1/Spirit Shaman 4 with Monastic Training? The druid spell list is a bit more versatile than cleric...could go into Sacred Fist later.

I would think that OA Shaman would be better than spirit shaman here, possibly even as a replacement for monk if you're going into Sacred Fist anyways. Sure, you gain an extraneous unarmed strike feat if you do take that level of monk, but it's not all that big of a deal. Throw a decent roll into charisma to boost your saves and pick up Law Devotion to use with your turning for a bonus to AC or attack at a whim. The feat tree leading up to Spring Attack and Trip offers a lot in the way of defensive benefits as well. Your party will thank you later for picking up Touch of Healing at one point, especially at high level when you're likely to hold on to your high level spells for dire emergencies.

I'd recommend a splash of swordsage instead of monk in this case for the wisdom bonus to AC and some setting sun maneuvers, but you did say that your DM wasn't hot on ToM. Alternatively, OA Shaman/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator into Sacred Fist later if ToM were allowed. I've had the most entertainment I've ever experienced (out of a base class only character) with a half dragon monk/paladin that picked up some devoted spirit stuff, healing surge, and wands to heal the group. So many attacks.

[infomatic]

OA Shaman would be good, too, but check to see if you can find the 3.5 version (In Dragon, I think it got some upgrades). Spirit Shaman has some definite advantages over it, notably free ghost touch (handy if you're going Sacred Fist) and better spells for a natural attacker (Silvered Fang and Bite of the ____, for starters).

The only downside of Spirit Shaman is that it's hard to find break points for. I suspect you'll find yourself preferring to take more levels in SS than Sacred Fist, which is pretty lackluster in a lot of ways. (I almost prefer the 3.0 version, which had Paladin-style casting but better class features.)

I'm not sure Monastic Training is worth it. Take two levels up front and will you EVER go back to monk?

Monk2/SpiritShaman3
Monk Style: Passive Way or Cobra Strike (aiming for Elusive Target style with the latter)

Feats: Intuitive Attack (BoED, Wis to atk), Combat Reflexes, Combat Casting

What you really need is something like "Ascetic Adept" feat (a la Ascetic Hunter, et al) that will let you stack Monk/Shaman levels for Unarmed Damage. Even better, a Divine Talashatora feat … if you can house-rule that, then Monastic Training becomes worth it and you can probably skip Sacred Fist altogether.