My player wants to craft... Alot.

[Buufreak]

And damn, do I mean alot. He wants to burn most all of his skill points, cash, and feats so that he can craft everything for half cost. Sure, sounds great right? Problem is that he then decided it was completely unfair that he was going to be behind in XP because of the cost, and wanted me to create a solution, or is threatening to walk. I think I should just let him, but what do you guys think?

[Haldir]

In theory, his extra wealth in crafted items should be able to cover however far behind he is character-wise.

[Forrestfire]

Point out that exp gains increase if you're lower level than the rest of the party. He's going to catch up faster when he's a level behind, and depending on how stuff works, he might actually end up ahead at some points by accident (if you beat a high CR encounter, for example).

In any case, crafting and mitigation of crafting costs are some of the most powerful things in the game. If he's threatening to walk over not having them buffed, I'd say to call his bluff. If he was just trying to manipulate you, then he'll probably concede the point. If he actually cares enough to walk over that, he's probably not worth playing with. :smallsigh:

[Rubik]

Crafting alots (http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html) is an epic skill check which mimicks the epic spell Origin of Species.

[Seerow]

And damn, do I mean alot. He wants to burn most all of his skill points, cash, and feats so that he can craft everything for half cost. Sure, sounds great right? Problem is that he then decided it was completely unfair that he was going to be behind in XP because of the cost, and wanted me to create a solution, or is threatening to walk. I think I should just let him, but what do you guys think?

He's threatening to walk because if you don't let him have doubled wealth AND keep his full level?

I'd just laugh at him.

[galan]

xp is a river. when he is a level behind, he gets more xp than the other party members and can close the gap. or, you know, play an artificer. or, you know, house rule it. if he shares with the party and everyone gets new toys, its all good

the real problem is not the xp, but the fact he threats to leave because of such a minor thing. do you really want a player that in the second something is not on his way, he walks away? talk with him about it. threats on a regular basis is not healthy for any group, including role playing ones

[daremetoidareyo]

Give him an option to burn ability scores in place of xp. 1 permanent hp lost =250 xp. 1 point in an ability score = 1000 xp. The fluff is easy to add, he literally pours himself into research and creation, powers things by his own blood and soul, and scars himself permanently.

Let him use found/bought magic items where he can disenchant them for 1/10th of the xp cost to put into his creations. Artifacts, mcguffins, or weapons of legacy however, cause him damage if he attempts to do this. Intelligent weapons can give up to 1/5 of xp costs but they try their hardest to charm the people around this PC to get the weapon instead.

Otherwise, let him walk. This is a DMs market.

[torrasque666]

My group uses a communal XP pool(that is, all players always have the same XP) so we had to find a different method to mitigate the XP costs. So we settled on 1GP=5XP and to modify the GP cost accordingly.

So something that has a base price of 1,000 GP costs 508 GP to craft. (half base price for normal gold[500GP], 1/25th the price in XP[40XP],coverted to gold at the above ratio[8GP])

[Jeff the Green]

...tell him to be an Artificer and use XP cost reduction to bring the cost down.

Or maybe use the PF system.

[JBarca]

Crafting alots (http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html) is an epic skill check which mimicks the epic spell Origin of Species.

I don't really have anything to add that hasn't been said already, but I do need to congratulate you on this, Rubik. Thanks for making me laugh.

[OldTrees1]

1) The player wants to play a crafter.
2) The player does not think the rules support playing a crafter.
3) The player's response was to "ask for a rule change or walk" instead of the mature "ask for a rule change or change characters".

#1 is fine.
#2 is where the player is probably mistaken (although there is some subjectivity).
#3 is where the player is being immature (but let's not exaggerate, this forum loves to paint things as jerk vs angel).

The keystone of this problem is #2.
A) Make sure you are obeying the xp rules that cause xp as a river(lower level characters in a party gain xp faster), and make sure the player knows about xp as a river.
B) Discuss whether this is enough support for playing a crafter. Have this be a rational discussion rather than an argument. The conclusion you 2 draw may be drastically different than my own.
C) If it is enough support, continue. If it is not enough support, discuss if the additional support would help or hurt your(plural) game. If help, then bend the rules to fit the game. If hurt, then offer the player make a new character that can fit your(plural) game.

My own conclusion:
Xp as a river is enough support for a character that crafts but is not only about crafting. The support needed for a character that is only about crafting would not fit my group's game. So I leave the rules as they are and suggest the crafter use only 1 level's worth of xp for crafting. Xp as a river will give them a steady larger income of xp to split between leveling and crafting. They thus end up leveling at the same rate as the party.
Then behind the DM screen I calculate out how much extra xp they would gain, have everyone level at the same rate and just hand the crafter that extra xp.

[Magesmiley]

Let him walk. The rules are very clear on the XP costs for crafting. They were there when he made his character.

This boils down to poorly thought out choices made by a player.

[TheIronGolem]

1) The player wants to play a crafter.
2) The player does not think the rules support playing a crafter.
3) The player's response was to "ask for a rule change or walk" instead of the mature "ask for a rule change or change characters".

#1 is fine.
#2 is where the player is probably mistaken (although there is some subjectivity).
#3 is where the player is being immature (but let's not exaggerate, this forum loves to paint things as jerk vs angel).


Actually, I'd say #1 is somewhat in question. I can't tell from the OP whether the player in question really wants to play a crafting-focused character for roleplay/concept reasons and wants to mitigate some (rightly or wrongly) perceived costs, or just wants an evergreen "50% off magic items" coupon for nothing but a few skills and feats. The ultimatum from the player makes me lean towards the latter, but it could still easily be either one.

Honestly, though, I kind of think XP costs for crafting are silly and should be done away with (Pathfinder got this one right). If you aren't comfortable with ditching them entirely, perhaps offer to waive them in exchange for a reduced GP discount? Like, say, craft at 75% cost instead of 50%?

[titans4ever]

Isn't there some rules for breaking down magical items to gain XP for crafting or am I imagining something from another game? He could deconstruct items from the party treasure that nobody wants as long as he is making things for other players as well.

[Troacctid]

Honestly I can't blame him for not wanting to spend xp on crafting. XP costs are pretty much the lamest thing ever and nobody likes them. They're unfun for players because giving up xp sucks, and they're unfun for GMs because doing extra math to account for it sucks. And Pathfinder doesn't have them and seems to do just fine.

Getting everything at half price is really powerful, though, and it only gets more powerful at higher levels. What I do in my games is replace xp costs with gp. I've been going with 5 gp per xp since that's the cost when you hire an NPC spellcaster to cast a spell with an xp cost; with crafting, it means you end up spending 70% of the base price.

Maybe you could also try using craft points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/craftPoints.htm) instead of xp costs. As long as he spends the appropriate amount of craft points, he doesn't need to spend xp or time creating the item. That lets him craft without losing levels but still limits the total gp he can generate to a more reasonable level.

Or point him to the Artificer, which gets a crafting reserve that replaces xp costs in item creation as well as lots of class features related to crafting.

TL;DR you should work with him because xp costs suck and he's right.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The only thing telling me-as-DM "change this or i'll walk" will accomplish is me showing you the door. Not only is it exceptionally rude, giving in sets a terrible precedent.

On the specified issue, crafting is fine. If your party has enough downtime to use it Craft Wondrous Item is probably among the most powerful feats you can take on a caster. Getting double WBL for the cost of a feat is neither fair or balanced, so your player will just have to deal.
Or walk, and good riddance if he's that kind of guy.

[Lucigen]

Isn't there some rules for breaking down magical items to gain XP for crafting or am I imagining something from another game? He could deconstruct items from the party treasure that nobody wants as long as he is making things for other players as well.

That's actually a class feature of the Artificer from the ECS is they could break stuff down to put into their....what was it called...Craft Pool at a either 1/10 or 1/2 XP rate hard to remember which so you're not imagining things.

I'd have to side with people saying point him to the Artificer and to the XP gain for different levels rule if he's a reasonable sort (Which I'm betting against with the gimme or walk ultimatum but everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt). Without knowing his exact character he's probably a caster (Or using some arcane chicanery to 'cast' the spells required for items) so with dedication to crafting he'd actually really benefit from the Schema and Wands he could craft to offset the limited Infusion pool that an Artificer would bring and if he doesn't like Artificer the fact is that as he drops down in level compared to the party he will literally slingshot back up in time.

Or if you're a really accommodating guy tell him he can take that class feature as a feat but that's honestly as forgiving as I'd be to someone telling me to fix their choices but you know your players better than we do and if your instinct is to let him walk then let him.