Retraining without retraining, or even holding!

[weckar]

Confusing thread title? I know. Sorry.

This is about feat retraining. The only relevant rules I know are in the PHBII and do not cover my needs.

What ARE my needs?

1. I have 3 feat slots at 1st level. I only need/want 2.
2. At 2nd level, I REALLY need a feat slot, but obviously do not have one.

My idea was to just temporarily take a feat at 1st level and then swap that out for what I want at 2nd level, probably against some GP cost. That, apparently, doesn't work out. I could only take a replacement feat that I would have qualified for initially.

My second plan was to see if I could 'hold on' to one of the feats for a level, but it seems by RAW that that can't be done.

Any help in this matter is appreciated.



-ALSO: since the '2nd level feat' is to be used as a prerequisite for PrC at 3rd level, I might as well ask: Is it ever allowed to pick your 3rd level feat before your 3rd level class?

[Troacctid]

Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) would allow it, but it might be out of your price range at 2nd level.

[Pilo]

Can you give us your feats, the feat you want at level 2 and the PrC please?

[OldTrees1]

Could we have specifics? What you are asking for is not intended although it is possible. However your situation sounds weird. There may be another solution.

PS: Leveling has you chose your class before you choose feats. So no go on using your 3rd level feat.

[weckar]

I take that would take at least 280GP? That SHOULD be within WBL, but does put me at the mercy of the DM....

EDIT: WHOA more posts! I try not to be specific because I know some members of my group frequent these boards. At first level I will be Beguiler with Precocious Apprentice, and another feat (irrelevant here). I will have the human bonus feat + 1 flaw feat, thus a spare feat. At 2nd level I will pick Binder and if at all possible pick up the Improved Binding feat to allow for entry into Anima Mage at 3rd level.

[Curmudgeon]

Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) would allow it, but it might be out of your price range at 2nd level.
I don't see that as legal.
When this power is manifested, the subject can choose to spend its most recently gained skill points differently (picking new skills and abandoning old ones if it chooses) and to choose a different feat from the one it selected when advancing from its previous level to its current level.
...
The subject can undo decisions of these sorts that were made at lower levels, if both the subject and the manifester agree to pay the necessary XP before this power is manifested (see below). The subject must abide by the standard rules for selecting skills and feats, and so it cannot take feats for which it doesn’t qualify or take crossclass skills as class skills.
There's nothing there that says it replaces the standard rules for selecting feats with ones that allow you to replace a feat at a lower level with one you only qualify for now. Psychic Reformation lets you redo a prior decision, but only with the same rules that apply at that level.

[Forrestfire]

If you take Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige, you qualify for Anima Mage anyway. Human with Versatile Spellcaster, those two feats, and a metamagic feat is the way to go.


At each anima mage level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class.

Note the wording, and lack of a need for a previous Binder level. Beguiler 1/Anima Mage x is perfectly legal, and will net you binder levels up to 10. You can then retrain the Bind Vestige feats later because the class qualifies you for further levels.

[weckar]

All well and good Forrestfire... But apart from the (slightly shady) reading of that, that would make me one feat short. Out of the three first level feats I have, only the one I would 're-use' is at all mutable, at BOTH the others are 1st-level-only

EDIT: Uh-Oh... Looks like SOMEONE missed a teensy-tiny rule... Anima Mage also requires a Metamagic feat....

[Forrestfire]

Oh, my bad. Hrm. No idea, then. Swap to Human for another feat? :smalltongue:

There isn't a way to pull this off, as far as I know, other than higher gold prices than you can afford (Metamagic Storm or Chaos Shuffle), or extra, extra cheesy Reincarnation, which would still require a decent amount of gold (and mad book-dodging skills).

[weckar]

Considering the edit in the post above, I will be screwed on feats anyway. Looks like a classic 4th-level entry for me. That leaves me with the decision on whether to pick binder or beguiler as the filler level, or something else altogether..

[Forrestfire]

Probably best to take the Beguiler level, because spellcasting is more useful to max out than binding.

[weckar]

Aye. I suppose I'll suck up the one lost caster level in return for the extra effective binder level I'll have then. All that remains is to pick a metamagic feat that will be of use to be out the gates from level 1....

[Forrestfire]

Normally I'd suggest Invisible Spell, but I'm not sure what's good with that on the Beguiler list. Can't go wrong with Extend Spell, especially since you can actually cast with it through Versatile Spellcaster at level 1.

[weckar]

Extend spell seems good, even though it will initially only affect cantrips (no feat room for VS, 'member?)

[Forrestfire]

*reads up*

Wow, I have no reading comprehension. Replace Precocious Apprentice with Versatile Spellcaster. It's much more versatile (heh), and since Beguilers know their entire list, you can cast 2nd-level spells right off the bat.

[weckar]

Not a bad idea, in general. Although I would have liked the Alter Self pickup from PA, as it is the only chance I ever get at it.

EDIT: also:

When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list. Emphasis mine.

[Forrestfire]

Hrm. That's a good point. I guess you could use Extra Spell later down the line to grab it, or Eclectic Learning or something. Alter Self is pretty useful at level 1, though... Really, it depends on how much you value the utility of Alter Self in the early levels vs having access to all the 2nd-level beguiler spells early on if you find yourself in a situation where you can burn several slots to use them. Whatever works.

EDIT: Is getting a spell slot of a higher level not getting access to that spell level? While having to have a spell you know to cast to actually get the ability to pour slots into the feat is a hassle, a +1 metamagic (or you might need Heighten Spell) gives you something you can cast at the next level higher, letting you get access to the rest. Good catch, though. I normally see the feat used as the default early-entry feat for spontaneous casters, so I mentioned it without thinking completely.

[weckar]

The way I read the above quote, I wouldn't have the 2nd level beguiler spells at all.

[Forrestfire]

Really, I guess it comes down to a DM call. Personally, I would allow Versatile Spellcaster for that, but some DMs might not.

[Sith_Happens]

Really, I guess it comes down to a DM call. Personally, I would allow Versatile Spellcaster for that, but some DMs might not.

It definitely works if you also have Heighten Spell.

[weckar]

It definitely works if you also have Heighten Spell. How? AFAIK you can't normally heighten to spell slots you don't have without reducers.

[Sith_Happens]

How? AFAIK you can't normally heighten to spell slots you don't have without reducers.

Only because you don't have the slot. With Versatile Spellcaster you can spend two of your highest level slot to cast a spell Heightened to the next level up. As a Beguiler, being able to cast spells of that level means you know that part of your list.

[Jeff the Green]

-ALSO: since the '2nd level feat' is to be used as a prerequisite for PrC at 3rd level, I might as well ask: Is it ever allowed to pick your 3rd level feat before your 3rd level class?

It's not. However, a number of writers have apparently thought it is, so you may be able to convince a DM to let you.

[weckar]

Only because you don't have the slot. With Versatile Spellcaster you can spend two of your highest level slot to cast a spell Heightened to the next level up. As a Beguiler, being able to cast spells of that level means you know that part of your list.So you have a slot because you have a spell, and a spell because you have a slot?

Ooooooowh my head hurts :smallfrown:

[Forrestfire]

The logic works like this:

Preconditions: Beguiler 1 with Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell

You can apply Heighten Spell to any 1st-level spell for a +1 modifier, making it a 2nd-level spell in every way. You can't cast it, as you have no 2nd-level slots.
You now know a 2nd-level spell, so Versatile Spellcaster allows you to spend two 1st-level slots to cast it. You now can cast the spell, and thus, have access to 2nd-level spells.
You now have access to 2nd-level spells, so you gain the knowledge of every 2nd-level spell on the Beguiler list.
There is no passage that says you lose the knowledge after it's gained, so you still keep those spells on your list of spells known.
Since you know these 2nd-level spells, you can use Versatile Spellcaster to cast them.

[Urpriest]

Incidentally, Marshal is a good way to "delay" a feat, though it doesn't fit your needs as far as I can see.

[weckar]

By that logic, step one alone would be enough to have 'access' to a spell, and by extension have every spell on the list be a 'spell known', which does some funny things to the restrictions of feats like "Extra spell".

[Forrestfire]

Extra Spell specifically notes that you have to be able to cast the spells it bases the level of the spell gained off of, though. Sanctum Spell is nice for that, however.

[weckar]

Welp, I suppose that should teach me not to do this stuff in the AMs....

[meschlum]

If you're open to third party stuff, the Midnight setting has exactly what you need. Technically.

From the relevant SRD: this (http://darknessfalls.leaderdesslok.com/character_feats.htm#Slow Learner) should work, if you ignore the setting constraints on magic and other issues.

The main point being to prove that the option exists, at least.