What in the mm would you allow to become a warlock patron?

[Rfkannen]

I was just thinking, its implied that warlock patrons are realy powerfull things. Yet so far in 5e we havent realy had to much talk about fey lords or lovecraftian horror things. So what would you allow to be the patron of warlocks?

[MaxWilson]

Just a thought, but it might not be an inherent property of the thing, it might be a matter of resources. E.g. anyone with 10,000,000 million worshippers or more can funnel the power of those worshippers to 5 warlocks. Even if your personal statistics are just those of a fluffy purple dinosaur with a goofy grin.

[Rallicus]

Max, the idea of a warlock walking around unknowingly channeling the energies of millions and millions of worshipers from throughout the multiverse is awesomely terrifying.

[Gnomes2169]

The Kraken seems like it would fit from a fluff perspective, seems like they could fit the Old Ones (given their age and their status as "God Wars Weapons"). Beholders also somewhat fit the Old Ones, and so does a lich or demilich of the right age/ eldrich inspiration (under the same token, dracolich also fits). An ancient Shadow Dragon could also fit, depending on color (typically blue, silver and black would fit the "knowledge seeking/ having" part of the Old Ones down pat). I fully expect the Ithillid hive brain to fit as well if/ when it comes out.

Pit fiends and balors obviously fit for fiends, but so does the Lamia and, to a degree, the Shadow Dragon (if red, gold or otherwise of fiery nature). Shadow dragons are referred to as "demon dragons" in previous editions for a reason, after all. A normal ancient red dragon also fits, however.

For Fey, the hag coven leaders, unicorn and ancient green/ copper dragons fit (for a darker/ more demented patron, make them shadow). I haven't looked at the rest of the fey in the MM too much, so I don't know what other possible Fey patrons there could be.

[Hytheter]

I think Warlock patrons are supposed to be beyond what's in the Monster Manual, ie beyond what a player can be expected to face. Which makes sense, a Warlock shouldn't be able to stand up against the very creature that provides his power. Notice that the monster manual deals in generics - eg Balor, Dryad - while the Warlock calls out specific named entities - eg Orcus, Titania.

You shouldn't be looking to the monster manual for patrons, but in the fluff of the setting. The monster manual does list and briefly describe some high ranking fiends despite not giving them stats, and in unique campaign worlds you might have to consult your DM.

[rollingForInit]

I think Warlock patrons are supposed to be beyond what's in the Monster Manual, ie beyond what a player can be expected to face. Which makes sense, a Warlock shouldn't be able to stand up against the very creature that provides his power. Notice that the monster manual deals in generics - eg Balor, Dryad - while the Warlock calls out specific named entities - eg Orcus, Titania.

You shouldn't be looking to the monster manual for patrons, but in the fluff of the setting. The monster manual does list and briefly describe some high ranking fiends despite not giving them stats, and in unique campaign worlds you might have to consult your DM.

Actually, the MM states on several occasions that some of the creatures in it are notorious for striking deals with humans of exactly that kind. Most notably devils. Pit Fiends would make excellent Patrons, as could Yugoloths, the one that looks like a fox especially (don't remember what it's called).

I think it'd make perfect sense for a Warlock to be able to defeat his or her Patron, eventually. It doesn't have to be that way, but why should it be impossible? Devil grants some power, and at CR 20 the devil is terribly far removed from a 1st level character. The gap could easily be closing between them during the adventure. Perhaps the Warlock is even unintentionally (or intentionally?) draining the devil, and the final quest before hitting level 20 might be to destroy the Patron and be free from the hellish contract?

[squashmaster]

Honestly maybe a celestial patron. I mean, there's fey patrons who can be good. My warlock's patron is Titania/Oberyn, good fey. It may not jive with many of the necromancy spells available to warlocks, but if there can/will be death domain clerics and evil oath paladins, why not celestial patron warlocks?

[Cambrian]

No creature as in the MM should be granting warlock powers. Generally that should be reserved for beings that have power similar to but different than gods.

All of the following are not assumed to be just any old creature of that type. More this is a list of the creatures in the MM most likely to be become a warlock patron:

Aboleth
Celestial
Beholder
Fiends in general (obviously)
Dragon
Empyrean
Gas Spore
Ghost
Certain Giants
Hag/Night Hag
Rogue Illithid or Elder Brain
Raksasha
Sphinx
Treant
Vampire

Some of the above listed creatures don't really fit well with the current pacts, but are more likely to acquire the power to grant warlock like powers. With little to no theme adjustment the Archfey, The Fiend, and The Great Old One would work.

It's not spelled out because it's meant to be open to work in a variety of settings and applications. So outside of published settings (not out yet) it's just DM call.

Edit: color-coded hags wrong

[Steel Mirror]

Actually, the MM states on several occasions that some of the creatures in it are notorious for striking deals with humans of exactly that kind. Most notably devils. Pit Fiends would make excellent Patrons, as could Yugoloths, the one that looks like a fox especially (don't remember what it's called).In my opinion, fiends that make such deals are acting more as brokers than as the ultimate origin of the fiendish power used for the pact. Devils are acting under the authority of one of the archdevils, dispensing bits of the massive power inherent in the Nine Hells as ultimately controlled by Asmodeus. Demons making a similar pact with a nascent warlock would be representing their own archfiend, or some other ancient evil entity on the level of the gods/powers that be.

It's like negotiating for a loan at the bank. The loan officer isn't personally giving you his own money, he is speaking on behalf of the much larger organization which has resources that frankly beggar the imagination of the people involved in that particular deal.

If you decide to threaten or try to defeat the devil that brokered your pact, chances are that he has no power to revoke the deal; those decisions are made upstairs, by beings that you probably don't want to mess with. Not that such a thing wouldn't make a sweet level 20 quest, if you want to go in that direction. But as others have said, in my opinion nothing in the MM is in the weight class you would need to actually power a warlock's pact directly.

[rollingForInit]

In my opinion, fiends that make such deals are acting more as brokers than as the ultimate origin of the fiendish power used for the pact. Devils are acting under the authority of one of the archdevils, dispensing bits of the massive power inherent in the Nine Hells as ultimately controlled by Asmodeus. Demons making a similar pact with a nascent warlock would be representing their own archfiend, or some other ancient evil entity on the level of the gods/powers that be.

It's like negotiating for a loan at the bank. The loan officer isn't personally giving you his own money, he is speaking on behalf of the much larger organization which has resources that frankly beggar the imagination of the people involved in that particular deal.

If you decide to threaten or try to defeat the devil that brokered your pact, chances are that he has no power to revoke the deal; those decisions are made upstairs, by beings that you probably don't want to mess with. Not that such a thing wouldn't make a sweet level 20 quest, if you want to go in that direction. But as others have said, in my opinion nothing in the MM is in the weight class you would need to actually power a warlock's pact directly.

I see your point, but I guess I disagree that there's nothing in the MM that could power it. Dragons is another prime example. I mean ... if you read the Sorcerer class, it says that the Draconic bloodline usually originiates with someone striking a deal with a dragon for power. So that first person in the line might well have been a Warlock who had a dragon for a patron. An Ancient Gold Dragon is one of the single most powerful beings that exists (and have always been so, short of gods etc). I don't have any difficulty putting a dragon like that at a level close in power to an Archdevil (though perhaps not Asmodeus himself) or an Archfey. If an ancient dragon couldn't possibly have that power, I've difficulty seeing any being aside from a god granting it. Especially since potential patrons seem pretty numerous.

[Logosloki]

I was just thinking, its implied that warlock patrons are realy powerfull things. Yet so far in 5e we havent realy had to much talk about fey lords or lovecraftian horror things. So what would you allow to be the patron of warlocks?

If I wasn't running a serious game I would allow any fiend, fey or something that could function as an old one. Obviously they would be high leveled (at least level 16) but I see patronage like a mentoring program where you unveil the mysteries you have learnt to a willing student. Of course they aren't quite mentors in the traditional sense. You could even have your fiend warlock's patron be some minor demon who is using the relationship to boost it's power by getting you to find information or thrawt a rivals plans.

If I was running a joke/one-shot (I'm considering it), You could allow a tiefling, a fellow warlock, a paladin of ancients...

If I get a chance to play I will be playing a tome old one warlock whose patron is a moon god, with the extra goal of witnessing a cataclysmic event which ends or significantly changes the lives of a thousand or more sentient beings. Such is life when your patron is an unfeeling void being who is only using you because it can't live in an atmosphere.

[Objulen]

IMHO, warlocks shouldn't be empowered by worshippers, indirectly or otherwise: that's the cleric's purview. The 'gods' who empower warlocks should be independent of worshippers, even if they have them. Devils use soul energy from tortured souls, Lovecraftian horrors are self empowered, and potentially aspects of reality (Outer gods), and arch-fey, in a manner similar to fiends, have their own source of power to draw on.

[INDYSTAR188]

My inclination is to allow any fiend, dragon, fey, or abomination of 21+ CR to be a potential patron. Especially if the being is powerful enough to own and reshape a portion of some other plane of existence.

Example, Alberitrius the Ancient Blue dragon who rules a significant portion of the Plane of Air but not random blue dragon found in the Anauroch desert.

[randomodo]

The way I look at it, there are a number of entries in the MM which could be patrons, but things that could be patrons wouldn't have the same stats as the things in the MM.

Rather, they'd be exceptional members of their kind - older, more powerful, etc. Not all Balors have the exact same stats, there are no doubt sprites out there who have more than 4 hp (notionally, one could have an entity known as, say, the Mother of Sprites as a patron). Likewise, a member of the Dark Eight, an unspeakably ancient aboleth, the first unicorn, etc.

Ultimately, it's a matter of RP fluff rather than statistics anyway. Few if any warlocks are going to be fighting against (or alongside) their patrons - at least not at low levels (though it might make an excellent climax to a campaign)

[Joe the Rat]

Demons making a similar pact with a nascent warlock would be representing their own archfiend, or some other ancient evil entity on the level of the gods/powers that be.

It's like negotiating for a loan at the bank. The loan officer isn't personally giving you his own money, he is speaking on behalf of the much larger organization which has resources that frankly beggar the imagination of the people involved in that particular deal.Which would make Glabrezu (Type IVs, if you prefer) the de facto pact maestros. Offering deals of power is pretty much their thing.

[CyberThread]

The simple answer is


Everything

[Joe the Rat]

The simple answer is


Everything
Great. Now I'm torn between having a Psychic Ooze or The Lady of Pain as a Warlock Patron.
If you're going to get an idea shot down, might as well go big

[randomodo]

Deekin the Kobold bard as a warlock patron FTW

[Joe the Rat]

Would that be Fey or Old One?

[randomodo]

Deekin is his own category of pact :-)

[Objulen]

Which would make Glabrezu (Type IVs, if you prefer) the de facto pact maestros. Offering deals of power is pretty much their thing.

It's questionable if the Glabrezu would be empowering the pact, or if it would be an demon prince or even the Abyss itself.

[Logosloki]

It's questionable if the Glabrezu would be empowering the pact, or if it would be an demon prince or even the Abyss itself.

I [name of Glabrezu], on behalf of [Contractor] do under-sign this contract between [name of contractee] and the aforementioned [contractor] that [contractee] may under the terms and conditions of this agreement be granted powers from [contractor] as is seen fit by [contractee] except in circumstances that are listed under the terms and conditions. The agreement shall be in good standing from [start date] to [end date] or until any power that may be able to annul this agreement does so.

[Affix the seal of the Contractee here]
[Affix the seal of the Glabrezu here]
[Have pre-affixed the seal of the Contractor here]

[nb: this here is page one, there may be other times where a seal may be affixed within this contract, remember to have both your seal and the seal of the contractee on each point or this contract may be invalidated or otherwise manipulated]

[Objulen]

That's way too formal and legalistic for a chaotic evil creature ;) It'd be great for a Baatezu, however.

Also, here's a list of Lovecraftian Great Old Ones. Don't even touch the Outer gods, your held will melt and explode at the same time.

http://www.yog-sothoth.com/wiki/index.php/Great_Old_Ones

[MaxWilson]

IMHO, warlocks shouldn't be empowered by worshippers, indirectly or otherwise: that's the cleric's purview. The 'gods' who empower warlocks should be independent of worshippers, even if they have them. Devils use soul energy from tortured souls, Lovecraftian horrors are self empowered, and potentially aspects of reality (Outer gods), and arch-fey, in a manner similar to fiends, have their own source of power to draw on.

I don't like the idea of "gods" being dependent on worshippers, that seems more like a cultist thing to me. (Would Zeus care if all the humans he created died? Would it weaken him in the slightest? No, he would just be disappointed because all the girls were dead.)

However, if you don't like that, there are other forms of resources. Maybe fiend-powered warlocks are actually powered by dead souls/spirits. (This could be why they get some HP back when they kill something--it's a kickback.) Every time a warlock casts Eldritch Blast, a fiendish contraption somewhere crushes the blood out of a dozen screaming souls. (Kind of puts a damper on Paladin/Warlock gishing, hey?) Fey warlocks could be powered by nature, as long as nature remains sufficiently intact. Great Old Ones could be powered by, I dunno, raw insanity from beyond. Every time you cast a warlock spell Cthulhu stirs a little in his sleep and gets closer to awakening.

Ideally I'd want the warlock class to be one where nobody in his right mind would WANT to be casting warlock spells, and the ones who do are tempted by the power in spite of the consequences. Fey warlocks don't really fit this mold for me, but then again Mab the Queen of Air and Darkness would be an Archfey by D&D's standards so maybe you could still find a way to make it work. The warlock's fluff text even says explicitly that this relationship/pact should be a major RP point of interest for the warlock.

And that's why you shouldn't dip Warlock 2 just to pick up Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast.

[Shining Wrath]

If it has stats, it can be killed. The MM is full of stat blocks. What happens to a warlock when his patron dies?

I'll take the approach that the MM entries point you to the creatures capable of being patrons, not the patrons themselves. You don't want a gold dragon, you want Io. But if you can imagine a super-dragon like Io, you can also imagine a super-beast of any sort.

And therefore I suggest as a great old one whatever primal force first created aboleths. The Aboleth-mother is going to be utterly alien and immensely powerful.

EDIT: Of course, Pun-Pun is the patron for whimsical warlocks everywhere.

[Objulen]

I don't like the idea of "gods" being dependent on worshippers, that seems more like a cultist thing to me. (Would Zeus care if all the humans he created died? Would it weaken him in the slightest? No, he would just be disappointed because all the girls were dead.)

Cannonically speaking, gods in D&D need worshippers to survive, "feeding" on faith, or else they end up fading into a sleep-like death in the Astral plane. I personally don't mind this as it provides a solid reason for gods to need, want, and care about the wellbeing and number of their worshippers. Zeus may have created humans because he needed someone to believe in him, though, TBH, the way the Planes are set up in D&D, it makes more sense to me that proto-deities were created by the first sentient creature's beliefs, which formed the Outer Planes.


However, if you don't like that, there are other forms of resources. Maybe fiend-powered warlocks are actually powered by dead souls/spirits. (This could be why they get some HP back when they kill something--it's a kickback.) Every time a warlock casts Eldritch Blast, a fiendish contraption somewhere crushes the blood out of a dozen screaming souls. (Kind of puts a damper on Paladin/Warlock gishing, hey?) Fey warlocks could be powered by nature, as long as nature remains sufficiently intact. Great Old Ones could be powered by, I dunno, raw insanity from beyond. Every time you cast a warlock spell Cthulhu stirs a little in his sleep and gets closer to awakening.

Devil harvest soul energy by torturing the very concept a personal identity out of souls, turning them into Lemures, and Mephistopholies has spent a great deal of soul energy empowering cults in the Prime Material Plane with Hellfire, so this fits right in line with how these outsiders functions.

Arch-Fey would similarly use some font of personal power or something from the Fey Wild (sic) they can tap into.

Great Old Ones, Outer gods, and Elder gods just depend on what you're talking about. They can give knowledge of the true nature of the cosmos (which can break your sanity), invest a bit of their personal essence, or, if you're the unfortunate bastard offspring of Yog-Sothoth, just get it because Time and Space said so.


Ideally I'd want the warlock class to be one where nobody in his right mind would WANT to be casting warlock spells, and the ones who do are tempted by the power in spite of the consequences. Fey warlocks don't really fit this mold for me, but then again Mab the Queen of Air and Darkness would be an Archfey by D&D's standards so maybe you could still find a way to make it work. The warlock's fluff text even says explicitly that this relationship/pact should be a major RP point of interest for the warlock.

And that's why you shouldn't dip Warlock 2 just to pick up Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast.

I agree with the level dipping idea. As for the rest, it really depends, though I also agree that a warlck will have, in general, an alien mindset that most people will find strange or incomprehensible.

Arch-Fey probably have the most the understandable mindset for the average D&D player, though there should be dream-like weirdness to them and their actions. Depending on the fey, they may or may not be evil.

Devils and demons can be very understandable, and straight up evil, generally along the lines of a Faustian bargain with the associated angst and attempt to escape damnation, or an attempt to exult in it, such as earning an automatic promotion among the ranks of the devils after you die.

Outer gods and Great Old Ones are alien and should be insanity-inducing by any standard, but Elder gods, though they can easily be rather weird and bizzare, don't need to be as mind-shattering as the others, being closer in power to mortal deities. A warlock wouldn't be normal by any means for making a deal with an Elder god, but they wouldn't necessarily be utterly demented for doing so.

[MaxWilson]

Cannonically speaking, gods in D&D need worshippers to survive, "feeding" on faith, or else they end up fading into a sleep-like death in the Astral plane.

Reference please? I don't see this anywhere in the 5E rulebooks but I am still digesting the books.

If it's from a prior edition of (A)D&D or from novels, it's not canonical.

[Steel Mirror]

Reference please? I don't see this anywhere in the 5E rulebooks but I am still digesting the books.

If it's from a prior edition of (A)D&D or from novels, it's not canonical.You won't find it in 5E, but I think it was presented in at least a 3E splatbook Deities and Demigods, if I recall correctly. It is of course highly setting and even individual D&D campaign dependent; in Eberron, for instance, the gods aren't even unequivocally stated to exist, much less have rules on how worshipers empower them.

[Ramshack]

Theres a whole list of pantheons and demigods etc in the back of the PHB that's where I'd start.

Otherwise Balors and Pitfiends would be about it in the MM, maybe...just maybe ancient dragons...

[Objulen]

Reference please? I don't see this anywhere in the 5E rulebooks but I am still digesting the books.

If it's from a prior edition of (A)D&D or from novels, it's not canonical.

While you can say that it's not canonical, by that logic nothing's really canonical until it gets re-printed. I'm going to go with the assumption that the most recent splat book on the Great Wheel Nine Hells, Tyrants of the Nine Hells, is accurate.

[MeeposFire]

Reference please? I don't see this anywhere in the 5E rulebooks but I am still digesting the books.

If it's from a prior edition of (A)D&D or from novels, it's not canonical.

Well it is very true in the Forgotten Realms but not necessarily in other worlds. I would imagine it is not true in Dragonlance and I am not sure about Greyhawk. Dark Sun does not have traditional deities and instead worship things like elementals which do not require worshipers to function. Eberron has already been mentioned and also does not care.

However it should be noted that I think FR is the default setting in 5e so you might hear things like that often since it is true there.

[Objulen]

It's listed as a fate for gods in Planescape, which is the most direct source, but there are exceptions. Plus, gods can be worshipped on many worlds, so even if one forgets them, they can still be ok, if weakened.

And settings like Eberron (which may not have actual gods, just faiths), and Dark Sun (which just doesn't have gods at all) render the point moot for their settings.

[AeonsShadow]

I was just thinking, its implied that warlock patrons are realy powerfull things. Yet so far in 5e we havent realy had to much talk about fey lords or lovecraftian horror things. So what would you allow to be the patron of warlocks?


Well, Michael7123 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?428960-Michael-s-Specific-Warlock-Patrons-for-5th-edition-The-Megathread&highlight=Patron) has been working on a HUGE list of demonically inclined and rather ingenious Patrons, and on top of what he has I could think of a HUGE LIST of Fey and other worldly creatures that would make GREAT PATRONS;

Also adding THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369307-New-Warlock-Patron-The-Titan&highlight=Patron) here cause it's so well made and I like it.

FEY PATRONS
Titania, the Queen of the Fairies
Oberon, the king of all of the fairies
PUCK, The Trickster, The Bringer of Change
The Fates, who have chosen to weave a story for you.

Magical beasts
Behemoth, primal unconquerable monster of the land
Leviathan, primal unconquerable monster of the Seas
The first Pheonix, Holder of the First Flame
Dragons (DUH)

SPIRITS
COYOTE, The Trickster
Asiman, the spirit of a vampire infecting a host
Baba Yaga, The ancient witch spirit
"THE HERO", the spirit of a long dead hero, whose legend has fueled his strength now given to you. (This one would have three forms for magic, physical and holy aspects)

And I am looking at making one for magical items. possibly multiple for specific items.

THE TOOL
Sometimes, it's not the hero the legends are about, nor is it the villain. Sometimes the legends are about what the hero carries into battle, what the villain gains his power from. And some times it is these legends that give the items life. From sword and shield to armor and more, THE TOOL is exactly that, a tool with powers giving you strength to wield it.

Some examples include:
Pandora's Box: Summon monsters best friend
The book of Thoth: Control life and death
Aegis: Shield your allies and immunities
Draupnir, ring of the gods: The power of wealth compels your enemies, let it be your wealth that does so.
Uchide no kozuchi the great hammer: Sap your enemies strength and control the land itself

Think I should make some TOOL patrons?

[foobar1969]

Note that there is nothing in either fluff or crunch saying that warlocks operate via a direct conduit to their patron's own magical energy. They gain power by way of secret knowledge (https://www.google.com/search?q=arcane+OR+arcana), passed along from the patron.

It is not impossible that, over time, the warlock learns to wield this power more effectively than their patron. Perhaps leading to a variation of this monologue (https://www.google.com/search?q=circle+complete+learner+master)... but hopefully with a better ending (which is to say, no ewoks).

[Tanarii]

Personally I find the idea that warlocks are wholly granted their power in any way similar to clerics being granted power to be non-canonical. The PHB is pretty clear that a large chunk of the Warlocks power is learned, not granted, and some of it is self-taught. Plus they are arcane casters, which means (per PHB sidebar on page 205) that they spellcasting is based on understanding of the weave, not mediated power. So as someone else said, a master/apprentice relationship seems more appropriate analogy than God/cleric.


Reference please? I don't see this anywhere in the 5E rulebooks but I am still digesting the books.

If it's from a prior edition of (A)D&D or from novels, it's not canonical.
It's canonical to Forgotten Realms (including this edition per several SCAG references), which seems to be the 'default' campaign setting for D&D 5e. But no, it isn't necessarily part of the base PHB descriptions. Such campaign specific details usually aren't.

[AeonsShadow]

As I see it, the Patron grants them the POWER and INSTINCTIVE knowledge to use that power. How they mold it and learn to use it is in the end of thier own doing, thus why they vary so much from 'lock to 'lock. I guess this would put them as the middle ground between sorcerers and Wizards in that aspect.

[JakOfAllTirades]

The simple answer is


Everything


Excellent. Now can I finally make a "Great Old Ones" pact with a Flumph?

[Tenmujiin]

One of the players in my campaign is running a tiefling fiend pact tomelock who's power essentially comes from his studies of demons and devils that allow him to tap into his fiendish heritage. I let him key his warlock features off Int since he is a scolar and his power comes from knowledge.

Basically the character's power source is somewhere between a wixard and a sorcerer.

[Joe the Rat]

SPIRITS
COYOTE, The Trickster
Asiman, the spirit of a vampire infecting a host
Baba Yaga, The ancient witch spirit
"THE HERO", the spirit of a long dead hero, whose legend has fueled his strength now given to you. (This one would have three forms for magic, physical and holy aspects)

And I am looking at making one for magical items. possibly multiple for specific items.
I rather like blacksmiths as the arch-creators of items. Ilmarinen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmarinen) would be a good option.


THE TOOL
Sometimes, it's not the hero the legends are about, nor is it the villain. Sometimes the legends are about what the hero carries into battle, what the villain gains his power from. And some times it is these legends that give the items life. From sword and shield to armor and more, THE TOOL is exactly that, a tool with powers giving you strength to wield it.

Some examples include:
Pandora's Box: Summon monsters best friend
The book of Thoth: Control life and death
Aegis: Shield your allies and immunities
Draupnir, ring of the gods: The power of wealth compels your enemies, let it be your wealth that does so.
Uchide no kozuchi the great hammer: Sap your enemies strength and control the land itself

Think I should make some TOOL patrons?I do rather like these. Makes the Blade pact a bit more literal. Plus, Elric.


Excellent. Now can I finally make a "Great Old Ones" pact with a Flumph?Works for me.

[Shining Wrath]

Aside from the obvious powerful entries in the Fiends, I think you're looking at one-offs; not a bog-standard gold dragon, but the gold dragon that married a queen of the Fey and lived in the Feywild for 10,000 years. Maybe a lich.

[steppedonad4]

Tarrasque. Sure, it's dumb, but are you going to argue with it?

[rollingForInit]

I'd allow anything otherworldly. Any fiends above a levels of CR. Any outsider, any fey, any celestial. Patrons don't have to be ultra powerful. In some Forgotten Realms books, you've got Cambions acting as patrons. And cambions aren't that powerful (CR5). So, a patron doesn't have to be powerful, just have access to mystical secrets or greater powers. A cambion could be like a proxy of archdevils, for instance, if they aren't particularly powerful in their own right. Or they might know secrets that can unlock great power.

[MeeposFire]

I always thought since 5e came out that the warlock class is versatile enough to handle many concepts. When it first came out somebody used it (changing the names of abilities of course) to be a techno hacker like class.

My thought was more basic as a way to bring back a useful version of the warmage. The warlock is perfect for this. What D&D world military would not love such a soldier. Compare it to the wizard for in general combat use (of course wizard would still be used but it would be more of a specialty focus such as diviners for scouting or even evokers to be the true "big guns"). The warlock gets better at will attacks which helps with dealing with long fighting days. They get access to powerful spells that they can get back relatively quickly. They start with light armor and are tougher.

The patron would be a nation or military academy and just like other patrons it could be used to influence what a character does or acts (or not the character could be discharged). Spells would give additional choices for spells not on the warlock list but would be great for on the battlefield (a classic example might be fireball). Class features would give you additional abilities useful for their tasks such as perhaps medium armor and/or shields.

This would be less mysterious in the way that other patrons can be but it can add the political angle as you are or were beholden to some military, nation, or other political entity. That gives a lot of role playing and DM material to work with.

I think this would work easily in most campaign settings but especially ones like Eberron where such military organizations exist.

[Vogonjeltz]

If it has stats, it can be killed. The MM is full of stat blocks. What happens to a warlock when his patron dies?

If he/she isn't level 20, they need a new patron to keep gaining knowledge. According to the PHB (page 105) it's a master/apprentice relationship, the being is giving the warlock knowledge on how to manipulate the universe in return for occasional services performed on the patron's behalf.

Basically the warlock is making a deal, they do a service, they learn to harness power. So if the patron dies, the warlock doesn't forget how to access the power they have, but they do have a problem if they want to learn more power they need a new patron.

In terms of roleplay and why they don't just switch patrons, presumably certain patrons would only ever engage in a pact with certain types of people. i.e. If you're so fickle you would make a pact with anyone, then probably only the Fiend would actually accept you as a minion. Which is the justification I'd use for disallowing anyone to mix-match Patron abilities should their patron die, they'd just get the next runner up or whatever.


Sometimes, it's not the hero the legends are about, nor is it the villain. Sometimes the legends are about what the hero carries into battle, what the villain gains his power from. And some times it is these legends that give the items life. From sword and shield to armor and more, THE TOOL is exactly that, a tool with powers giving you strength to wield it.

Sounds identical to Glen Cook's The Swordbearer.

[AeonsShadow]

Sounds identical to Glen Cook's The Swordbearer.

Hmm, never read it but I have heard of Glen Cook before. I'm gonna go look it up~!

As for an example of the Tool Patrons I am making, here is Pandora's Box (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?459381-Patron-Tool-Pandora-s-Box-(peach-please)), tell me what you think~!