Where are Ice Assassin and Kender from?

[...]

And, honestly, what are they? I'm new, obviously.

[Brookshw]

Kenders are Freaking obnoxious kleptomaniacs from dragonlance. Their main protagonist has fairly ridiculous plot armor. Edit: oh, right, they're basically halflings.

Ice assasin in from frost burn, its a spell, basically advanced simulcrum that is under the castets control and wants to kill the original.

[Extra Anchovies]

Kenders are Freaking obnoxious kleptomaniacs from dragonlance. Their main protagonist has fairly ridiculous plot armor. Edit: oh, right, they're basically halflings.

Ice assasin in from frost burn, its a spell, basically advanced simulcrum that is under the castets control and wants to kill the original.

Kender have all the worst traits of Halflings and all the worst traits of Gnomes, tossed into a blender and mixed half-and-half with Chaotic Stupid.

Ice Assassin leads to a lot of cheese; Gate in a Solar, make an Ice Assassin of it, now you have a pet Solar. Alternately, make an Ice Assassin of yourself. Then make Ice Assassins of that Ice Assassin. The original Ice Assassin of you wants to kill you, so lock it up in an Antimagic Cell and bury it underground. The Ice Assassins of the Ice Assassin of yourself, however, don't want to kill you, are under your complete control, and can do everything you can. Yes, that includes more castings of Ice Assassin. It's one of those clearly-for-BBEG spells (like Mindrape) that can lead to immediate breakage of game if used by PCs.

But please, please don't make an Ice Assassin of a Kender. There are enough of the bastards already.

[weckar]

Except, you know, the spell explicitly says Ice Assassins are - as the name implies - entirely made out of ice. They melt. With a casting time of 8 hours that would be a pain in all but the coldest environments.

[Divide by Zero]

Except, you know, the spell explicitly says Ice Assassins are - as the name implies - entirely made out of ice. They melt. With a casting time of 8 hours that would be a pain in all but the coldest environments.

If you can't figure out a way to stop ice from melting, you're probably not a spellcaster.

[Snowbluff]

Except, you know, the spell explicitly says Ice Assassins are - as the name implies - entirely made out of ice. They melt. With a casting time of 8 hours that would be a pain in all but the coldest environments.

This is wrong. They are made of Shadow matter, like a Shadow Conjuration.

[weckar]

The duplicate is formed entirely out of ice, but once the spell is in effect, it appears as an exact duplicate to all but its source, who always sees the ice assassin as an animated ice statue of himself.Can't get much more direct than that.

[Snowbluff]

Can't get much more direct than that.

Other than it being entirely untrue. It's shadow matter, as shown by the Shadow tag and the fact that it's a real (fake) creature. At the very least, it's Shadow ice. Either way, they aren't susceptible to melting until death.

Even if it were a problem during creation, spellcasters have many ways of handling that. Fimbulwinter is one of the more obnoxious examples, but is only a few pages away.

[Forrestfire]

You forgot the important part:

The ice assassin possesses all the skills, abilities, and memories possessed by the original, but its personality is warped and twisted by an all-consuming need to slay the original.

"Not melting when exposed to heat" is a pretty big ability of most creatures. It also creates a "an ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature that is a near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature." It may be made of ice initially, but once the spell is cast, it's much, much more... And even if the DM rules that the ice body melts, it's not difficult to fix that. Give them immunity to fire. Now heat and fire can't hurt them. Problem solved.

[Squark]

Given that Simulacrums are also made from Ice statues, I don't think Ice Assassins are supposed to melt. Besides, it's not like it's hard to keep the thing from melting.

[weckar]

Fair enough. I assumed upon reading (and using) the spell that the only shadow matter involved was that shaping the appearance of the IA, not the IA itself. I may very well have been mistaken. Although I hardly think that not doing something can be considered a trait or ability of any individual.

[Red Fel]

"Not melting when exposed to heat" is a pretty big ability of most creatures. It also creates a "an ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature that is a near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature." It may be made of ice initially, but once the spell is cast, it's much, much more... And even if the DM rules that the ice body melts, it's not difficult to fix that. Give them immunity to fire. Now heat and fire can't hurt them. Problem solved.

I think the point was that before it can become an Ice Assassin, you have to cast the spell over a statue made out of ice, powdered diamonds, and bits of the target. And you have to do that over an eight-hour period.

After it's an Ice Assassin, no problem, but until then, it's a shaped block of ice. I agree, you do kind of need a way to keep it from turning into a very large puddle within that time.

I also agree that a caster who can't figure out how to do that at that level needs to turn in his robe and wizard hat, he's out of the gang.

[Necroticplague]

Or you can use a scroll of it, which wouldn't require you to provide the component.

Or heck, if we wanna get more nitpicky, it doesn't define what KIND of ice it has to be. And that same book has a substance called Blue Ice that, while ice, doesn't melt at temperatures comparable to that of steel. So that statue could easily last for indefinitely long if you make it out of Blue Ice.

[Sartharina]

I think the point was that before it can become an Ice Assassin, you have to cast the spell over a statue made out of ice, powdered diamonds, and bits of the target. And you have to do that over an eight-hour period.

After it's an Ice Assassin, no problem, but until then, it's a shaped block of ice. I agree, you do kind of need a way to keep it from turning into a very large puddle within that time.

I also agree that a caster who can't figure out how to do that at that level needs to turn in his robe and wizard hat, he's out of the gang.

Have you ever seen the ice statues in Boston in winter? Those things are beautiful, and stand for more than 8 hours.

I had a snowball that took 6 months to melt in my front yard once.

[Psyren]

Are we really applying physics to magical ice statues created by 9th-level spells?

Just say the [shadow] energy keeps it cold; ToM established a pretty clear link between the two.

[Red Fel]

Are we really applying physics to magical ice statues created by 9th-level spells?

Just say the [shadow] energy keeps it cold; ToM established a pretty clear link between the two.

The ice statue isn't created by the spell, though. It's a material component.

But yes. I agree, there are plenty of ways to keep a statute solid, if you're prepared.

[Rubik]

The ice statue isn't created by the spell, though. It's a material component.Which means that, since it's not worth anything, a component pouch or Eschew Materials should work just fine. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

The ice statue isn't created by the spell, though. It's a material component.

The duplicate itself is still made of ice (as proven by what the real thing sees when the IA comes for him) - but it is reinforced with shadow magic, so melting isn't an issue.

Shadow has strong ties to cold - this is proven by mysteries like Black Fire, Aura of Shade, Shadow Investiture, Shadow Storm, Curtain of Shadows, Shadow Plague...

[Red Fel]

The duplicate itself is still made of ice (as proven by what the real thing sees when the IA comes for him) - but it is reinforced with shadow magic, so melting isn't an issue.

Shadow has strong ties to cold - this is proven by mysteries like Black Fire, Aura of Shade, Shadow Investiture, Shadow Storm, Curtain of Shadows, Shadow Plague...

I'm not disagreeing with you. I agree that, once the spell is completed, there is no risk of the Ice Assassin melting.

I'm saying, however, that before the spell is completed, you have a non-magical ice statue that you have to preserve for the eight-hour casting duration. That's the part on which I was focusing; not the part after the spell is cast.

[Psyren]

I'm not disagreeing with you. I agree that, once the spell is completed, there is no risk of the Ice Assassin melting.

I'm saying, however, that before the spell is completed, you have a non-magical ice statue that you have to preserve for the eight-hour casting duration. That's the part on which I was focusing; not the part after the spell is cast.

Oh, that. Well, I would argue that components are checked when you start casting, and so even if the whole thing melts away, the spell takes effect and you get an icy duplicate regardless.

[Red Fel]

Oh, that. Well, I would argue that components are checked when you start casting, and so even if the whole thing melts away, the spell takes effect and you get an icy duplicate regardless.

It's a fair cop.

[daremetoidareyo]

Kender are FUN! just....not as NPCs. Immune to fear. They accidentally steal small things. Excellent at combat taunts. They are from dragonlance where they replace halflings.

I would bet that The 3rd edition iteration of halflings is heavily influenced by them, as they further deviated away from being hobbit stand-ins by taking on the physical characteristics ascribed to kender during the transition: lithe short lil scrappers rather than bulbous not'dwarves/not'humans.

2nd edition had some fun rules for them, like they don't know what the components of their pockets or pouch really are: Roll percentile dice to find what you have there. Then they overdid it like WOTC did with kobolds, giving them the best weaponry in the game; a beaded sash that does 2d6 damage? c'mon.

[Extra Anchovies]

Kender are FUN! just....not as NPCs. Immune to fear. They accidentally steal small things. Excellent at combat taunts. They are from dragonlance where they replace halflings.

Fun for the player who rolled up the Kender, maybe. I've only seen them used as excuses to be generally dickish to everyone else at the table, and playing a Kender as an excuse to mess with the other PCs is a good way to get your character offed.

[Anlashok]

Fun for the player who rolled up the Kender, maybe. I've only seen them used as excuses to be generally dickish to everyone else at the table, and playing a Kender as an excuse to mess with the other PCs is a good way to get your character offed.

This makes me wonder what a Kender Palaidn would be like. Would they cancel each other out? Or would you just create this nauseating black hole that all fun vanishes into never to return?

[Extra Anchovies]

This makes me wonder what a Kender Palaidn would be like. Would they cancel each other out? Or would you just create this nauseating black hole that all fun vanishes into never to return?

Nah, the player would have to either ignore the Kender's racial trait of compulsive theft, work out an alternate Kender Kode of Konduct with the DM, or they'd just fall a few minutes after gaining their first level of Paladin.

[Red Fel]

Fun for the player who rolled up the Kender, maybe. I've only seen them used as excuses to be generally dickish to everyone else at the table, and playing a Kender as an excuse to mess with the other PCs is a good way to get your character offed.

Pretty much this.

The defining features of a Kender are, in no particular order: They're sort of like Halflings, at least physically. They suffer from hereditary innocence and lovability that would give diabetes to a Disney character. This likely stems from one of their ancestors being a major Gary Stu in the novels. They have no souls, they know no fear. They want to "borrow" everything. Stuff on that table? Grabbed it. Stuff in the closet? Grabbed it. Stuff in your pockets? Grabbed it. And then the little bastards have the nerve to giggle about it. They taunt. That's the other thing. They have a hereditary taunting disorder. It's a defining feature. Seriously, they steal your stuff and then mock you to your face. It's like they were designed to be bludgeoned.
And that's really it. Whereas other races have developed depth, complexity, and ups and downs, Kender seem to exist purely to be irritatingly lovable pickpockets that you can't seem to get rid of, even when you have to scrape the little buggers off of your boots. (Which they tried to "borrow.") Frankly, most players who would play a character like a Kender would play a Halfling or Gnome instead. The only reason to play a Kender is for Kender-specific traits - namely, the ability to be the author's favorite lovable pickpocket and general jerk to the party.

I seem to recall that there was a Kender subrace that loses the Kender's general cheeriness and inability to feel fear. They're functionally indistinguishable from Halflings.

[daremetoidareyo]

Fun for the player who rolled up the Kender, maybe. I've only seen them used as excuses to be generally dickish to everyone else at the table, and playing a Kender as an excuse to mess with the other PCs is a good way to get your character offed.

Maybe, I was one of the few folks who has seen kender done well, then. The PC did no active thievery, instead the DM controlled what got lifted and when. This was 2nd edition, so the systems were pretty potently different. Kender in the group introduced social chaos & was a bit of a divining rod for which NPCs you had to watch out for. That said, I can see how a group could be routinely derailed by using kender as an excuse: just like the alignment Chaotic neutral...

[Raven777]

Can't we just chill the statue with Prestidigitation traps and call it a day? Or whip it out of our spell component pouch at exactly the time of spell completion?

[Phelix-Mu]

I always think the kender hate is overstated. I've played one before, starting back in 2e, and nothing made me act like a d*$k to the other players. Instead, I just went around, acted very curious, didn't always check for traps before picking up stuff in dungeons (though only to my character's detriment), and occasionally lifted worthless trinkets off npcs of no import (done very sparingly, really only once that I can remember). No worse than any CN rogue, really.

Also, I always change the immunity to fear to +20 v fear effects. Even in 2e, when they were created, they weren't supposed to be immune, just very resistant (backed up by some creatures that bypassed Tasslehoff's fear immunity in the books).

Anyway, I know it's popular to hate on them, but I think if a player is being a douche with a kender, chances are that, minus that kender, that player is still going to be a douche. Just because they are a common instrument of douchery doesn't mean they have to be played like that. And a good DM would make sure that no character has an excuse to be douche to other players, regardless of context, unless pvp is in.

[Sam K]

But please, please don't make an Ice Assassin of a Kender. There are enough of the bastards already.

How about creating the spell Kender Assassin? It creates a copy of the target, that has all the skills and abilities of the original, BUT IS A KENDER! Instead of wanting to kill the original, it want to annoy the hell out of the original's companions!

"I'm sorry, the lower planes as you know them no longer exists. Someone created Kender-Orcus and the little bugger went rampant on creating copies of itself. On the bright side, now it's truly, utterly hell!"

[Venger]

Tasslehoff's fear immunity in the books

What is this? I didn't play 2e

pic mildly related (http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/David+Hasselhoff+Comedy+Central+Roast+David+DrU3BD 9AtY9l.jpg)

ice assassin is often invoked (humorously) to be able to clone gods since bits of hair or fingernail have no GP cost, so are in your spell components pouch by RAW

[Phelix-Mu]

What is this? I didn't play 2e


Tasslehoff is the kender from the Companions of the Lance, or whatever the name of the group was, and he was in various of the books for the War of the Lance, a pivotal event in the history of Krynn. As a book character and not a mechanical construct, he obviously doesn't translate well onto a character sheet, but the parts that stand out in my mind:

1.) He manages to get onto the back/head of a rather large red dragon, which then takes off in flight. Can't remember how this ends, but Tasslehoff wasn't even phased by the idea of a dragon, let alone it's fear aura.

2.) Lord Soth the Death Knight (the archetypal death knight) had a similar fear aura, but way more intense. Tasslehoff was actually scared of him when they met one time, and I believe the author made passing note of how the encounter scarred the kender (though their psychological resistance/stupidity/plot-armour means that not much about him changed in the end...he was a bit of a comic foil, admittedly).

So I always use virtual immunity (+20 vs fear effects) as opposed to straight-up immunity. This also takes into account how, even in the fluff for 2e, kender do actually mellow a bit with age (though casual observers might not notice). Their wanderlust dies down, they tell more stories as opposed to doing stuff themselves, and generally experience the general halfling tendency to settle on one group of friends, one occupation, and one community in which to annoy people.

As I said, I don't think annoying people is a verboten archetype. There are annoying people out there. And kender do often die due to their curiosity, but not half as often as one would think (they are as lucky as other halflings, generally).

[Gulnar]

Tasslehoff is the kender from the Companions of the Lance, or whatever the name of the group was, and he was in various of the books for the War of the Lance, a pivotal event in the history of Krynn. As a book character and not a mechanical construct, he obviously doesn't translate well onto a character sheet, but the parts that stand out in my mind:

1.) He manages to get onto the back/head of a rather large red dragon, which then takes off in flight. Can't remember how this ends, but Tasslehoff wasn't even phased by the idea of a dragon, let alone it's fear aura.

2.) Lord Soth the Death Knight (the archetypal death knight) had a similar fear aura, but way more intense. Tasslehoff was actually scared of him when they met one time, and I believe the author made passing note of how the encounter scarred the kender (though their psychological resistance/stupidity/plot-armour means that not much about him changed in the end...he was a bit of a comic foil, admittedly).

So I always use virtual immunity (+20 vs fear effects) as opposed to straight-up immunity. This also takes into account how, even in the fluff for 2e, kender do actually mellow a bit with age (though casual observers might not notice). Their wanderlust dies down, they tell more stories as opposed to doing stuff themselves, and generally experience the general halfling tendency to settle on one group of friends, one occupation, and one community in which to annoy people.


There is also the Tower of Wizardry encounter, where he could enter in the surronding forest (that had a aura of fear so strong that other characters couldn't even bear to look at the trees). He couldn't get throught it, tho.

This said, i'm actually surprised that in the whole book collection no bbeg even tries to wipe out kendermore.

[The Glyphstone]

There is also the Tower of Wizardry encounter, where he could enter in the surronding forest (that had a aura of fear so strong that other characters couldn't even bear to look at the trees). He couldn't get throught it, tho.

This said, i'm actually surprised that in the whole book collection no bbeg even tries to wipe out kendermore.

According to wikipedia:

In 385 AC Kendermore was destroyed by the red dragon-overlord Malystryx.

So someone finally did get sick of the place. That may have happened outside of the novels though.

[Brookshw]

So someone finally did get sick of the place. That may have happened outside of the novels though.

I think it happened offscene or in a dragon preview, but the fallout is well referenced in the novels.

[Karnith]

So someone finally did get sick of the place. That may have happened outside of the novels though.
Malystryx's attack on Kendermore is detailed (at least in part; it's been a loooong time since I've read it) in the novel Spirit of the Wind, which was part of the Bridges of Time series.

Said book also details the last adventure of Riverwind, and was a pretty good read, if I recall.

[Forum Explorer]

Fun for the player who rolled up the Kender, maybe. I've only seen them used as excuses to be generally dickish to everyone else at the table, and playing a Kender as an excuse to mess with the other PCs is a good way to get your character offed.

I played a kender without being a ****. It's really easy to do. I think my excuse for my Kender not messing with the other PCs was something along the lines of 'I've already gone through their stuff and they don't have anything interesting to borrow. All boring stuff like money, armor, and weapons. Bleh.'

Beyond that it was more playing up the happy go lucky, innocent bard who cheered on his friends and yelled insults to their enemies.

[Phelix-Mu]

Malystryx's attack on Kendermore is detailed (at least in part; it's been a loooong time since I've read it) in the novel Spirit of the Wind, which was part of the Bridges of Time series.

Said book also details the last adventure of Riverwind, and was a pretty good read, if I recall.

I recommend all of the Dragonlance novels, actually. I read a good dozen or so of the ones from the time of the War of the Lance and its buildup through the Chronicles of the Twins, and they were pretty good reads. I'd probably nominate the Dragons of X series as some of the best, like Dragons of Spring Dawning, I think it was. As annoying as people find kenders, and as weird overall as that whole group was, for some reason the novels are really good and paint a very nice rendition of the lives of individual heroes as war on a vast scale unfolds.

The stuff about Raistlin's crazy attempt to become a god and Caramon's attempts to stop him are rather more self-indulgent reads, as is anything with kender/tinker gnome facilitated time travel. Not necessarily bad stuff, and gave me an entirely new respect for the depth of Raistlin's guts and determination (and...oh right, he's totally bonkers).

At least I was impressed back in middle school. Not sure how they would hold up to a reread now that I've actually read really, really good books.

[Karnith]

At least I was impressed back in middle school. Not sure how they would hold up to a reread now that I've actually read really, really good books.
Speaking as someone who owns dozens of Dragonlance books, as a whole they don't really hold up. The Weis and Hickman novels, particularly the Chronicles and Legends trilogies, are pretty good, as are a few others like Legend of Huma or Doom Brigade, and most of the short story collections contain at least a few gems. But the majority are pretty standard and unremarkable fantasy fare, and there are quite a few stinkers - I find the early Fifth Age books in particular to be almost unreadable.

[Qwertystop]

I saw a description of Kender that makes them seem a bit better. Instead of "compulsively steals things," use "no concept of personal property." Take the Wizard's spellbook to look at all the weird drawings, give it back as soon as he asks if anyone's seen it. It's not stealing, or even "borrowing" - just "this is an interesting thing I will pick it up and examine it - oh, you want it? here you go."

This would come across as a combination of kleptomania and generosity.

"his book" is just a shorter way to say "that book he always carries around and reads"

[Venger]

I saw a description of Kender that makes them seem a bit better. Instead of "compulsively steals things," use "no concept of personal property." Take the Wizard's spellbook to look at all the weird drawings, give it back as soon as he asks if anyone's seen it. It's not stealing, or even "borrowing" - just "this is an interesting thing I will pick it up and examine it - oh, you want it? here you go."

This would come across as a combination of kleptomania and generosity.

"his book" is just a shorter way to say "that book he always carries around and reads"

stoner anarcho-commie hippie kender
wizard"where's my thing?"
kender"here ya go. property is like, theft anyway, man"

[Forum Explorer]

stoner anarcho-commie hippie kender
wizard"where's my thing?"
kender"here ya go. property is like, theft anyway, man"

Well I have my next 3.5 character. The Hippie Kender Druid. :smallbiggrin: