Monk/Rogue, viable?

[AmbientRaven]

Hi Folks,

Just Querying a build idea I have as to how viable it would be.

6 monk / 14 Rogue (1 level rogue, then monk, then rogue again)

The 6 levels of monk gets me (only listing key abilities)
-Unarmored Defense
-1d6 damage on unarmed strikes (Martial Arts)
-Ki
-Stunning Strike (ki)
-Extra Attack
-Shadow Arts (Darkness, Silence, Minor illusion, Pass without trace, Darkvision)
-Shadowstep

The Rogue grants (only listing key skills)
-Sneak Attack
-Skill monkey
-Cunning action
-Uncanny Dodge
-5 levels of ability score increase(between monk and rogue)
-Assassinate (though trickster may have more utility)

Un-armoured defense, with a willpower of at least 14 grants the same AC as studded leather, with chance for improvement.
This will allow for a surprise round of combat for average damage of 104 Damage ((4D8+20) + (4D6+20) + (12D6)), and average round damage (with advantage) of 52 damage.

The other option is to go 5 monk (Way of the hundred hands). I'd lose the shadowstep, but gain the ability to knock them prone, meaning sneak attack every round. 15 rogue means that i get an extra sneak attack dice, and would most likely take trickster for some utility. Also casting fireball forcing them disadvantage on the save could be hilarious!

So, could this work as a viable build? The sustained damage seems better than straight rogue does, and 4 attacks a turn allows for more chance to trigger Sneak Attack.

Which do you think the better option
Way of Shadows (6) + Assassin (14)
Way of Shadows (6) + Arcane Trickster (14)
Hundred Fists (5) + Assassin (15)
Hundred Fists (5) + Arcane Trickster (15)

Thanks for your input!

[Ghost Nappa]

So, could this work as a viable build? The sustained damage seems better than straight rogue does, and 4 attacks a turn allows for more chance to trigger Sneak Attack.

Which do you think the better option
Way of Shadows (6) + Assassin (14)
Way of Shadows (6) + Arcane Trickster (14)
Hundred Fists (5) + Assassin (15)
Hundred Fists (5) + Arcane Trickster (15)

Thanks for your input!

While it does trigger more oppurtunities for Sneak Attack, remember that you only get SA 1/turn. It won't activate multiple times.

I think honestly, there isn't really a point where I'd ever want to not pick a Monk Level over a Rogue level once I've started other than Shadow Monk 6. That is the only level I would consider the switch (and even then you're losing an ability score improvement).

[Shadow]

Shadow 6 / Arcane Trickster 14 is a concept that I'll eventually be playing out.

And yes, he has the potential for more damage per round than a straight rogue.
monk/rogue +3 spear/staff flurry
1d8+8 (12.5) + 1d8+8 (12.5) + 1d6+5 (8.5) + 1d6+5 (8.5) + 7d6 (24.5) = 66.5
monk/rogue with +3 spear/staff with MA extra attack
1d8+8 (12.5) + 1d8+8 (12.5) + 1d6+5 (8.5) + 7d6 (24.5) = 58
monk/rogue with +3 spear/staff with no bonus attack
1d8+8 (12.5) + 1d8+8 (12.5) + 7d6 (24.5) = 49.5

straight rogue with dual +3 short swords
1d6+8 (11.5) + 1d6+3 (6.5) + 10d6 (35) = 53
straight rogue with +3 rapier
1d8+8 (12.5) + 10d6 (35) = 47.5

He also deals more consistent SA damage, as the rogue gets less attacks (and thus less chances to apply it).

[AmbientRaven]

While it does trigger more oppurtunities for Sneak Attack, remember that you only get SA 1/turn. It won't activate multiple times.

I think honestly, there isn't really a point where I'd ever want to not pick a Monk Level over a Rogue level once I've started other than Shadow Monk 6. That is the only level I would consider the switch (and even then you're losing an ability score improvement).

I'm aware that it triggers once per turn.
But Rogue have 1 base attack if not duel-wielding, so missing means loss of SA. 4 attacks a turn means a very high likely-hood of punch (ignoring the pun) through and almost guaranteeing sneak damage.

All up there is 5 Ability score increases for the build by level 20 (same as straight monk)

A monk's average damage (4D10+20) of 40 damage is 12 points lower on AoO, but 6pts higher on non AoO attacks. Ignoring the assassinate ability.
Though Quivering palm is huge damage, it wont always trigger. Avergae QP damage is 90, leaving the burst from assassinate as higher Damage.

The other option I guess is take Rogue 1 or Bard 1 to get the skill abilities and rest into monk


Shadow 6 / Arcane Trickster 14 is a concept that I'll eventually be playing out.

And yes, he has the potential for more damage per round than a straight rogue.
monk/rogue +3 spear/staff flurry with assasinate
2d8+8 (16.5) + 2d8+8 (16.5) + 2d6+5 (11.5) + 2d6+5 (11.5) + 14d6 (50) = 106
monk/rogue +3 spear/staff with flurry
1d8+8 (12.5) + 1d8+8 (12.5) + 1d6+5 (8.5) + 1d6+5 (8.5) + 7d6 (24.5) = 66.5
monk/rogue with +3 spear/staff with MA extra attack
1d8+8 (12.5) + 1d8+8 (12.5) + 1d6+5 (8.5) + 7d6 (24.5) = 58
monk/rogue with +3 spear/staff with no bonus attack
1d8+8 (12.5) + 1d8+8 (12.5) + 7d6 (24.5) = 49.5
monk/rogue +3 spear/staff with flurry no sneak
1d8+8 (12.5) + 1d8+8 (12.5) + 1d6+5 (8.5) + 1d6+5 (8.5) = 42
monk/rogue with +3 spear/staff with MA extra attack no sneak
1d8+8 (12.5) + 1d8+8 (12.5) + 1d6+5 (8.5) + 7d6 (24.5) =33.5

straight rogue with dual +3 short swords
1d6+8 (11.5) + 1d6+3 (6.5) + 10d6 (35) = 53
straight rogue with +3 rapier
1d8+8 (12.5) + 10d6 (35) = 47.5

He also deals more consistent SA damage, as the rogue gets less attacks (and thus less chances to apply it).

I've added 3 extra lines to the calculations (in red) also showing damage if no sneak attack, and damage with assassinate in round 1

You're better starting as 1 rogue for Rapier proficiency. It means rolling 1D8 finesse for damage, also allowing for Flurry of Blows.
Every DM I have spoken to (about 5 now) would rule that you can't flurry of blows using a Staff/Spear 2 handed. Taking a rapier negates this.

Mind if i ask why you picked trickster over assassin?
Do you think the ability to knock down a target, guaranteeing a sneak attack next round would outweigh the shadowstep?

[AmbientRaven]

Double post, sorry

[Shadow]

Every DM I have spoken to (about 5 now) would rule that you can't flurry of blows using a Staff/Spear 2 handed. Taking a rapier negates this.

Mind if i ask why you picked trickster over assassin?
Do you think the ability to knock down a target, guaranteeing a sneak attack next round would outweigh the shadowstep?

Every DM that you've spoken to disagrees with Mearls and Crawford about it then. That's perfectly fine as their prerogitive, but the general concensus from WotC is that since a monk uses them with finesse, they become sneak attackable.

Even if they won't allow it to be used for sneak attack when versatile, it's still a better option than a rapier IMO, as the extra damage when not sneak attacking makes up for it. And it's not like those extra two points of damage really make that big of a difference while you're sneak attacking anyway. Plus, if you use a rapier, you can't MA bonus attack at all, so short swords would be the way to go if you didn't want to use a spear/staff.
But spear/staff is the superior option with a monk/rogue, regardless of the versatile/SA ruling made, because used one handed it works exactly like a short sword would, but used two handed (when not SAing) it's better than a SS would be.

I would choose trickster over assassin because you're already going to be a sneaky pseudo-magical assassin type. Adding in more magical flavor just oozes fluffy goodness to me. Shadow and Trickster is a fantastic combo. It's less mechanics to me and more concept.

[MeeposFire]

I'm aware that it triggers once per turn.
But Rogue have 1 base attack if not duel-wielding, so missing means loss of SA. 4 attacks a turn means a very high likely-hood of punch (ignoring the pun) through and almost guaranteeing sneak damage.

All up there is 5 Ability score increases for the build by level 20 (same as straight monk)

A monk's average damage (4D10+20) of 40 damage is 12 points lower on AoO, but 6pts higher on non AoO attacks. Ignoring the assassinate ability.
Though Quivering palm is huge damage, it wont always trigger. Avergae QP damage is 90, leaving the burst from assassinate as higher Damage.

The other option I guess is take Rogue 1 or Bard 1 to get the skill abilities and rest into monk



I've added 3 extra lines to the calculations (in red) also showing damage if no sneak attack, and damage with assassinate in round 1

You're better starting as 1 rogue for Rapier proficiency. It means rolling 1D8 finesse for damage, also allowing for Flurry of Blows.
Every DM I have spoken to (about 5 now) would rule that you can't flurry of blows using a Staff/Spear 2 handed. Taking a rapier negates this.

Mind if i ask why you picked trickster over assassin?
Do you think the ability to knock down a target, guaranteeing a sneak attack next round would outweigh the shadowstep?

One thing to consider is that you can flurry after using a rapier but you cannot use your bonus action for the standard extra unarmed strike with martial arts while attacking with a rapier. That ability requires using a monk weapon.

[AmbientRaven]

Every DM that you've spoken to disagrees with Mearls and Crawford about it then. That's perfectly fine as their prerogitive, but the general concensus from WotC is that since a monk uses them with finesse, they become sneak attackable.

Even if they won't allow it to be used for sneak attack when versatile, it's still a better option than a rapier IMO, as the extra damage when not sneak attacking makes up for it. And it's not like those extra two points of damage really make that big of a difference while you're sneak attacking anyway. Plus, if you use a rapier, you can't MA bonus attack at all, so short swords would be the way to go if you didn't want to use a spear/staff.
But spear/staff is the superior option with a monk/rogue, regardless of the versatile/SA ruling made, because used one handed it works exactly like a short sword would, but used two handed (when not SAing) it's better than a SS would be.

I would choose trickster over assassin because you're already going to be a sneaky pseudo-magical assassin type. Adding in more magical flavor just oozes fluffy goodness to me. Shadow and Trickster is a fantastic combo. It's less mechanics to me and more concept.

Can you point me to where that's referenced? We have a monk in a campaign whom swapped from staff to short sword for just that very reason, he'll be happy to see that he can use a staff.
Edit: Can't sneak attack with a quarterstaff, so a shortsword is required to trigger SA and UA/Flurry

I liked the thought of assassin/shadow for the striking form the shadows ninja, though trickery sounds fun.

What spells are you taking per level ?


One thing to consider is that you can flurry after using a rapier but you cannot use your bonus action for the standard extra unarmed strike with martial arts while attacking with a rapier. That ability requires using a monk weapon.

using a rapier with flurry doesnt get the increased damage dice for UA bonus, as a monk weapon is required for the increase to take affect

[Shadow]

Can you point me to where that's referenced? We have a monk in a campaign whom swapped from staff to short sword for just that very reason, he'll be happy to see that he can use a staff.
Edit: Can't sneak attack with a quarterstaff, so a shortsword is required to trigger SA and UA/Flurry

I liked the thought of assassin/shadow for the striking form the shadows ninja, though trickery sounds fun.

What spells are you taking per level ?

http://thesageadvice.wordpress.com/2014/09/24/monk-sneak-attack/

--Satsuma @SatsumaOranges
--@mikemearls Multiclass Rogue/Monk: He attacks with a spear. Technically not a finesse weapon, but a monk treats it like one. Sneak attack?
--Peak Oil Mearls @mikemearls
--@SatsumaOranges it doesn't break anything, so I'd allow it.

Crawford said something similar at an earlier time, but I figured finding one would be enough.
Same would go for Qstaff. Monk treats it as a finesse weapon, so it would be allowed in Mearls' and Crawford's games.

As for spells, it'll probably be a while before I play this one so I hadn't really thought about it too much, but the fluff and concept lend itself to an illusion specialty.