Reach weapon throught ally case

[Roncorps]

Simple rule question : Does attacking with a reach weapon (i.e. longspear) throught a case occupied by a creature give +4 AC cover to the creature behind it ?

X is me
Y is friend - Give cover to Z ?
Z I want to hit - Receive cover from Z ?

I know it's a simple question, but I'm new to DMing I compared to playing, I'm now in the rule seat and some players argue that no, it don't provide cover. I want to be sure, because I see it as yeah, it does logically.

[Troacctid]

It does in PF and 3.5, although in other editions it does not, so it is easy to get confused.


To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from any corner of your square to the target's square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

[...]

Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.

It should count as partial cover at best, though, not full cover, so a +2 bonus instead of +4.

[jaydubs]

Technically, yes. And it's not an unreasonable rule.

But to be fair to your players, I've never seen that rule enforced in a game. (I rarely even see the "creatures are cover" rule enforced against ranged attacks though.)

[grarrrg]

I've never seen that rule enforced in a game. (I rarely even see the "creatures are cover" rule enforced against ranged attacks though.)

I think you technically see it all the time.
It's basically the thing that Precise Shot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/precise-shot-combat---final) negates.

[gartius]

Actually precise shot does not negate cover. thats improved precise shot. If you were to fire into a combat directly behind your ally without either feats you incur both sets of penalties for a total of -8.

My group enforces this unfortuneately, however i do make sure that spellcasters also have to obey this rule as well (we've had instances where blaster scorcerers just assume they hit and hey why should just mundanes suffer?)

[Umbranar]

Our group had long discussions about this during battles, so I looked it all up and presented it clearly to my group.
Now we all know how it works.
Its a fair rule in my opinion, especially since it negates automatic hits for wizards and sorcerers with range touch attacks.
Most archer types mostly have enough bonusses to attack to hit anyway if the right feats are taken.

[Roncorps]

Thanks for all the comments. I think too that it's a fair rule and a logical one too. Someone is in front of you, so no, you can't bypass him, he is not ethereal. I made sure to tell my players that it apply to NPC too, so if they play their position right, they too can have cover (and let other people die for their sake hehe)

[Roncorps]

Hmmm, in the PFSRD, they give a example for cover using a ogre and 4 PC (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Cover)

But, they say :


The rogue is adjacent to the ogre, but lines from the corners of her square to the corners of the ogre's square cross through a wall. The ogre has melee cover from her, but if it attacks her, the rogue does not have cover from it, as the ogre has reach (so it figures attacks as if attacking with a ranged weapon).


So, reach is using the same rule than a ranged weapon ? The example is clearly showing that one of the corner of the ogre pass throught the wall that block is line of effect.

[Troacctid]

So, reach is using the same rule than a ranged weapon ?

Yep, that's mentioned in the section I quoted above.

[Andion Isurand]

Precise Swing (Eberron Campaign Setting, p. 58)

That feat will negate the effects of cover on any melee attack you make.