Level adjustments, i dont understand

[finaldooms]

i seem to be sayng this alot lol..but i dont really understand some things about the LA rules..i understand for a new character if they had half clestial template they are a ECL 4 ( effectivly lvl 4) ..untill you add the class lvl .making them ECL5 with 1 lvl in..lets say fighter correct?
if thats the case..what happens when said caracter hits ECL 20? ..do they count as an epic character with +4 LA and 16 lvls in fighter? or do they not count untill they are at 20 lvls in fighter? ..do they qualify for epic feats? !?!?

answers would be wonderful :)

[WhamBamSam]

You only qualify for epic feats when you have 21 or more HD, regardless of ECL. All ECL determines is WBL and the amount of exp you should gain from a given encounter.

[heavyfuel]

ECL also serves as a rule/guideline for the maximum level of a PC at character creation, which is a rule/guideline that every person that plays d&d in my city doesn't seem to grasp...

[OldTrees1]

Effective Character Level = total Hit Dice + total Level Adjustment.
5 = 1 + 4(Half Celestial)
PCs of equal ECL are treated as equal level in the DM's eyes.

[finaldooms]

alright :) anything else i need to know about this? cause lately my group keeps trying to use LA characters

[OldTrees1]

alright :) anything else i need to know about this? cause lately my group keeps trying to use LA characters

Yes. WotC doesn't know what a fair LA is. Keep an eye out for a character being too weak (relative to the group) as a result of their level adjustment. In those cases, the DM should feel free to reduce their LA.

[nyjastul69]

alright :) anything else i need to know about this? cause lately my group keeps trying to use LA characters

LA: - is not the same as LA:0. LA:- means that the creature is not suitable as a PC. LA:0 means that there is no LA, such as the races in the PH.

[finaldooms]

yea..part of my group wanted to use some form of giant and ..we got to find out a normal stone giant is a lvl 18 character..before adding a class lvl lol..so i looked up a homebrew version that was a bit more ok for me cuase i didnt wana just flat out say no to them..and does a +4 for a half celestial template sound fair ? ..they got spells ..and a few immunites form what i saw is all

[Rebel7284]

Savage Species has savage progressions of some races, essentially allowing you to start as a weaker version of a monster and as you level, gain more HD/LA and abilities. You may want to look in there. Although a few progressions will have to be modified slightly as some monsters changed between 3.0 and 3.5


Half Celestial is meh. I would say that it's not worth it being 4 levels behind for the abilities it offers. But there are certainly worse templates one could take. :)

[Divide by Zero]

yea..part of my group wanted to use some form of giant and ..we got to find out a normal stone giant is a lvl 18 character..before adding a class lvl lol..so i looked up a homebrew version that was a bit more ok for me cuase i didnt wana just flat out say no to them..and does a +4 for a half celestial template sound fair ? ..they got spells ..and a few immunites form what i saw is all

Not counting LA +0 ones, about 99% of templates are worthless on a caster, and about 75% of them aren't worth the lost levels on a non-caster. Of the good ones, about 90% are LA +1 and the rest are LA +2. I can't think of a single template with LA +3 or more that's worth it.

[finaldooms]

i figured that was the case ..honestly 90% of the time i dont see the point of not being a human.. i mean hey free feat and bonus skill points as needed? thats typically a win win situation

[Sian]

Not counting LA +0 ones, about 99% of templates are worthless on a caster, and about 75% of them aren't worth the lost levels on a non-caster. Of the good ones, about 90% are LA +1 and the rest are LA +2. I can't think of a single template with LA +3 or more that's worth it.

I can think of 1(!) LA+5 thats worth it as caster, but its rather cheesy since part of the abilities gained is 'cast as Sorcerer at HD+4', which if you read Monster Manual on advancing monsters includes class levels.

[ranagrande]

The most expensive template I know of that is usually worth its LA is the Monster of Legend from Monster Manual 2 at +7.

[OldTrees1]

The most expensive template I know of that is usually worth its LA is the Monster of Legend from Monster Manual 2 at +7.

Explain (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlpRBLkgcBo) please?

[ranagrande]

Let's see...

+5 Natural Armor, +3 to all saves, +10 str, +6 dex, +10 con, +2 int, +2 wis, +4 cha, Improved Initiative and Multiattack as bonus feats, Fast Healing 5, permanent Spell Turning, and it gains spellcasting as a 5th level Cleric.

I'd say that's worth +7 LA. There are other options you could select too, but that would be my choice.

[OldTrees1]

Let's see...

+5 Natural Armor, +3 to all saves, +10 str, +6 dex, +10 con, +2 int, +2 wis, +4 cha, Improved Initiative and Multiattack as bonus feats, Fast Healing 5, permanent Spell Turning, and it gains spellcasting as a 5th level Cleric.

I'd say that's worth +7 LA. There are other options you could select too, but that would be my choice.

The cleric casting cannot be advanced and is limited to a small set of domains(without domain powers or domain slots). It is probably worth +5 LA but that decreases as the final ECL increases.

[ranagrande]

I see no reason why the Cleric casting couldn't be advanced. Just take a level of Cleric and then go into whatever PRC you want. It should work according to the "Associated Class Levels" rule in the Monster Manual.

Their list isn't that limited either. Its the Protection, Strength, and War domains plus the regular Cleric list.

[Karnith]

You only qualify for epic feats when you have 21 or more HD, regardless of ECL. All ECL determines is WBL and the amount of exp you should gain from a given encounter.
Actually, monster characters become epic characters (and are able to select epic feats) once they reach ECL 21. Per the Dungeon Master's Guide:

The epic rules in this section also work for monsters with character levels, using the creature's effective character level (ECL) instead of just its class levels. For example, a bugbear (3 Hit Dice and +2 level adjustment) that is also a 14th-level fighter/3rd level blackguard is ECL 22 and thus gains an epic attack and save bonus.

[Necroticplague]

Let's see...

+5 Natural Armor, +3 to all saves, +10 str, +6 dex, +10 con, +2 int, +2 wis, +4 cha, Improved Initiative and Multiattack as bonus feats, Fast Healing 5, permanent Spell Turning, and it gains spellcasting as a 5th level Cleric.

I'd say that's worth +7 LA. There are other options you could select too, but that would be my choice.

Lets see, you know what else could give you those saves and AC: a whole heck of a lot less than 7 levels worth of dips. A couple levels in fighter for the bonus feats. And as you pointed out, its casting only advances if you take for cleric levels. So You've pidgeonholed yourself into one class, only your two levels behind in doing what that class does, most of what you got doesn't particularly help, and now you're fragile as paper compared to anything you would go up against (as a level1 cleric Creature of legend would only have 5 more HP than an otherwise identical level 1 character, while a level 8 cleric would have about 8 times as many HP as a level 1 cleric). Fast Healing5 is only slightly more useful that fast healing1, and you can get that for a mere LA+1 template.

[ranagrande]

That's all true, and I'm not sure I'd want to play a Monster of Legend starting at level 8. However, the gap actually closes as it gains levels, and at ECL 20, the MoL will actually have more HP than a Cleric 20 who started with less than a 20 constitution. And they'll both have 9th level spells.

[Fouredged Sword]

Read the LA buyoff rules and use them. It makes playing races with LA much more acceptable.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm

Second, I would alter the rules somewhat if you really wanted players to feel free to play many of the higher level monsters.

-

First, I would ignore the part about not counting RHD when buying off LA.

Second, I would ignore the table for when LA is bought off. I would just let them buy off a level of LA at 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18 regardless of the LA they have.

I would also allow players to retrain a RHD into a class level at the same time as they buy off an LA (even if they don't have an LA.

The stone giant is playable as a 14th level character with 10 RHD, 4 class levels, and 0 LA. A hill giant is playable as a level 12 character with 8 RHD, 4 class levels, and no LA.

I would also state that a race cannot have it's RHD+LA reduced to lower than any casting levels it progresses, so a nymph cannot have lower than 6RHD and 1 LA due to the fact that it grants casting as a 7th level druid.

-

This would be for a mid to high level monster centered game though, as it would blow many core races out of the water as far as choices go. Fun if you want players to play monsters and not be crippled.

[Necroticplague]

Eh, I solve monster issues by playing gestalt. Just shove all the RHD and LA on one side, have that act as the "passive" side, while leaving room for actual class abilities on the other, "active" side.

[finaldooms]

Actually, monster characters become epic characters (and are able to select epic feats) once they reach ECL 21. Per the Dungeon Master's Guide:

THIS!!! ..if im reading this right my player who is a half celestial ( +4LA) will count as epic at ECL 21? aka ..17 lvls in cleric ( in his case) along with the +4 to = 21

[Rubik]

Ghost is an excellent template at +5 LA, but only if you take malevolence as one of your abilities. Inhabit other monsters and use their bodies as ablative armor. Along with all the other goodies they get (plus the Ghostly Grasp feat), there are a lot of shenanigans you can pursue with that.

Also, pixie.

[Turion]

For further reading: Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook) Most of what you're looking for should be in the fourth post, if memory (and my cursory review) serves me.

[finaldooms]

i love how most of the things i asked are answered by that link to urpriest XD

[bekeleven]

Also, pixie.

Petal is my very favorite race. Although it's listed as having LA: +2 (Cohort), the vast majority of DMs I've played with have allowed it for PC use when asked. (yes, be sure to ask.)

Basically pixie minus 2 LA, some of the craziest stat mods (not all of them), and the invisibility. But still buckets of fun as long as you don't need strength or reach.

[Necroticplague]

Ghost is an excellent template at +5 LA, but only if you take malevolence as one of your abilities. Inhabit other monsters and use their bodies as ablative armor. Along with all the other goodies they get (plus the Ghostly Grasp feat), there are a lot of shenanigans you can pursue with that.

Eh, its better to take the template class than the whole template. Usual cut-off points are either 1st (grant the the undeadness, incorporealness,boatload of immunities that come with them, and CHA to AC), 2nd (lesser ghost power, usually telekineses [one of the others has friendly fire, and the other can be bought for a few feats]), or 4th (malevolence). 5th level isn't worth it, all that gives is another +2 to some perception and sneaky skills. So at the very least you save a point of LA.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

With LA buy off remember you are supposed to buy them off at level = LA * 3, ie 9=LA3*3. This means that LA3 is the highest you can buy off in normal play. One LA at level 9, the next at level at 15, ant the last at level 18. With an LA of 4 it becomes first buy off at level 12, next at level 21 (outside of normal play).

[macdaddy]

I've been mostly confused by LA rules as well.

Example:
A Gnoll has 2HD and is a LA+1 race

So a Gnoll Ranger would count as a 2HD + 1LA +1 Ranger Class == 4 ECL? To advance to Ranger 2 he would then need to reach ECL 5, or 15,000XP for 2nd level ranger?

Or, while his ECL is 5, he would need (1LA + 1 Ranger, ie 2nd level equivelent) 3,000XP to reach 2nd level ranger?

[Fouredged Sword]

I've been mostly confused by LA rules as well.

Example:
A Gnoll has 2HD and is a LA+1 race

So a Gnoll Ranger would count as a 2HD + 1LA +1 Ranger Class == 4 ECL? To advance to Ranger 2 he would then need to reach ECL 5, or 15,000XP for 2nd level ranger?


The above is correct. He would have 3HD at ECL 4 (2 RHD, 1 level of ranger, and 1LA making him ECL4). He would have to level as if he was getting to 5th level to get to 4HD.

[Rubik]

Eh, its better to take the template class than the whole template. Usual cut-off points are either 1st (grant the the undeadness, incorporealness,boatload of immunities that come with them, and CHA to AC), 2nd (lesser ghost power, usually telekineses [one of the others has friendly fire, and the other can be bought for a few feats]), or 4th (malevolence). 5th level isn't worth it, all that gives is another +2 to some perception and sneaky skills. So at the very least you save a point of LA.True, except the template doesn't distinguish between "lesser" and "greater" powers, and it gives you three of them, rather than just two, so you can take three "greater" powers if you want. 4 LA for one lesser and one greater, or 5 LA for any three? Decisions, decisions.

Another point on the savage progression's favor, since each level is 1 LA, if you buy the first level off at level 3 and take another level, you still only have 1 LA, which you can then buy off immediately. Do that with all four levels.

[Fouredged Sword]

You must progress at least 3X your current LA before buying off a point of LA. Stacking 1LA on a single level at a time lets you buy off at 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18th level, no more.

[Rubik]

You must progress at least 3X your current LA before buying off a point of LA. Stacking 1LA on a single level at a time lets you buy off at 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18th level, no more.Except you never, at any point, have 2 LA. It's always 1 LA.

[Fouredged Sword]

You must gain 3 levels, minimum, before you can buy off any LA. This is ether 0-3, or 3 levels from the last LA you bought off.

2LA would require you to wait 6 levels before you buy it off.

[Rubik]

You must gain 3 levels, minimum, before you can buy off any LA. This is ether 0-3, or 3 levels from the last LA you bought off.

2LA would require you to wait 6 levels before you buy it off.You're already level 3 the first time you buy off your point of LA, so you still qualify to do it again.

[macdaddy]

The above is correct. He would have 3HD at ECL 4 (2 RHD, 1 level of ranger, and 1LA making him ECL4). He would have to level as if he was getting to 5th level to get to 4HD.

Ok then, so the LA buy off would only buy off the LA+1, you would be stuck with the +2 from the HD for ever?

So at ECL 6, 2 RHD + 1 LA + 3 Ranger, he could make a level adjustment buy off of 5K xp, making him ECL 5 and effectively repeating the XP cost of going from ECL 5 to 6. However, he would then always be 2 levels behind everyone else because of the 2 RHD?

Right?

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok then, so the LA buy off would only buy off the LA+1, you would be stuck with the +2 from the HD for ever?

So at ECL 6, 2 RHD + 1 LA + 3 Ranger, he could make a level adjustment buy off of 5K xp, making him ECL 5 and effectively repeating the XP cost of going from ECL 5 to 6. However, he would then always be 2 levels behind everyone else because of the 2 RHD?

Right?

There is no simple cheese free way to remove racial HD. In theory you can choose to loose those levels to permanent level drain and gain back class levels, but, well, most DM's call that cheesing.

[macdaddy]

There is no simple cheese free way to remove racial HD. In theory you can choose to loose those levels to permanent level drain and gain back class levels, but, well, most DM's call that cheesing.

I still don't fully understand the whole racial HD. I mean Dwarf is in MM, has 1 HD and has no LA. By these rules a person wanting to play a dwarf would have RHD of 1 + level. But it doesn't work that way...

Aasimir and Tiefling have 1 HD and LA +1. But have no racial HD when creating a PC.

So doesn't it make sense to have a monster with class levels to be racial HD -1?

[eggynack]

I still don't fully understand the whole racial HD. I mean Dwarf is in MM, has 1 HD and has no LA. By these rules a person wanting to play a dwarf would have RHD of 1 + level. But it doesn't work that way...

Aasimir and Tiefling have 1 HD and LA +1. But have no racial HD when creating a PC.

So doesn't it make sense to have a monster with class levels to be racial HD -1?
If a race has one RHD, it gets replaced by the first class level you take. If a race has more than that, it doesn't. See here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#humanoidsAndClassLevels) for details.

[macdaddy]

So, the moral is, if you play a LA race, don't pick one with Racial Hit Dice, or even with the LA buy off, your screwed....

[Fouredged Sword]

A select few offer perks that are worth the loss of class features. Sandstorm has a race that gets full sneak attack, death attack, poison use, stealth bonuses, full bab, and a buy off capable LA. It can be worth it in the right build.

[torrasque666]

If a race has one RHD, it gets replaced by the first class level you take. If a race has more than that, it doesn't. See here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#humanoidsAndClassLevels) for details.

Technically that only applies to Humanoids and other races that state it.

[eggynack]

Technically that only applies to Humanoids and other races that state it.
It doesn't look like that's explicitly stated in the line there, even if it's vaguely implied. In any case, it might be that the line is listed under humanoids because the situation never comes up for anything but humanoids, which would make the whole thing a moot point.

[torrasque666]

It doesn't look like that's explicitly stated in the line there, even if it's vaguely implied. In any case, it might be that the line is listed under humanoids because the situation never comes up for anything but humanoids, which would make the whole thing a moot point.

Oh I agree with that. Otherwise all my Warforged would be a level behind. Like I said, technically​ its only for humanoids. That same rule is then ignored everywhere else as it should be.

[Troacctid]

It's not so bad if they're Outsider hit dice: d8s with full BAB, all good saves, and 8 + Int skill points. That's better than some core classes I could mention.

[ranagrande]

Dragon racial levels are decent too: D12 HD, full BAB, all good saves, and 6 + into skillpoints.

[Necroticplague]

Technically that only applies to Humanoids and other races that state it.

Actually, whether this is true is pretty up for debate. The header for that text says Humanoid, but the actual text says "creatures".

[Tarlek Flamehai]

So a Gnoll Ranger would count as a 2HD + 1LA +1 Ranger Class == 4 ECL? To advance to Ranger 2 he would then need to reach ECL 5, or 15,000XP for 2nd level ranger?



This is correct.

[Endarire]

Pixie at 4 LA is debatably worth it.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, but at levels 5-10, when you feel the lack of HD the most you also have all the time greater invisibility, making you hard to target and harder to hit.

[Chronos]

Personally, I like brownies (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/al/20041006a) better than pixies for the same LA: Their Hide in Plain Sight works in almost any conditions, including antimagic (it's [Ex]), and between their size (tiny) and their +10 Dex, they'll be even harder to see than invisible pixies.