Punching at 70 MPH

[KindOfGoodGuy]

In an earlier post, I had asked about how to make the fastest level 3 pathfinder character and the result was a guy who could run at 100 feet/second (around 70 mph). His whole style of fighting is running as fast as he can up to his enemy so he can punch them in the face. What I'm concerned about though is this. How high of a constitution score would he need to not break his hand (or cause it to implode or something like that) as he punches someone at this obscene speed?

[Raphite1]

I wouldn't add any requirements for con score, chance of injury, etc.

Martial artists / boxers wear gloves not to protect their opponents, but to protect their own hands. Hands break all the time in bare-knuckle matches, which is why no one does bare-knuckle matches. They're boring because the competitors can't hit hard, or they injure their hands and quit or lose. So, any RPG character that focuses on unarmed strikes and doesn't wear any protection is already wildly unrealistic from a "real life" perspective - what they do is simply impossible. But that's okay, it's fantasy after all. I don't think that running really fast before punching is a big enough change to an already-impossible act that it would need some extra requirements. This character already has inhumanly tough hands from a real-life perspective.

Also keep in mind is that even real-life people can probably punch at 70mph or faster. The pop-sci "studies" on punching speed tend to claim that certain athletes can punch at 30+ mph, but these are deeply flawed and the actual speed is almost certainly much faster. Elite baseball players can throw 100mph pitches all night, which means that humans can definitely move their arms that quickly. Obviously they'd obliterate their hand if they smacked it into a brick wall at that speed, but they'd probably be okay if they hit a heavy bag, or someone's gut.

So, even if your character's punching speed is truly additive with their running speed, the total speed probably isn't an order of magnitude greater than what a real human can achieve. And, since their hands are already assumed to be super-humanly tough, why add a Con requirement?

[Oddman80]

The only way i see you could get the extra damage from higher speeds is if you are using the calculations for damage from falling objects - as it is the only one that accounts for impact based on impact velocity.

You can reverse engineer the movement speed to find the equivalent fall distance. If your final velocity is 100ft/sec, the impact you would make would be the equivalent of that of an object falling from 156 ft in the air [Final Velocity = (Initial Velocity)^2 + 2*(32ft/second/second)*x, where x = distance an object falls].

Assuming that you are medium, your base damage for impact would be 3d6, But because the move speed is equivalent of falling over 150 ft, you can double it to be 6d6. Plus the shield bash itself would deal 1d4+STR mod damage.

Not sure if you would use melee attack roll (shield bash), ranged touch roll (throwing heavy object), or just have the target try to make a reflex save for half damage (heavy object falling on target).

However, pathfinder rules specifically say that a falling object takes the same amount of damage as it deals... so , yeah - if you tried todo this with your fist, i am sure it would shatter... but there is a decent possibility, that even trying to attack with a shield bash in this manner would your shield as well. I don't know how you get around this....

[KindOfGoodGuy]

I wouldn't add any requirements for con score, chance of injury, etc.

Martial artists / boxers wear gloves not to protect their opponents, but to protect their own hands. Hands break all the time in bare-knuckle matches, which is why no one does bare-knuckle matches. They're boring because the competitors can't hit hard, or they injure their hands and quit or lose. So, any RPG character that focuses on unarmed strikes and doesn't wear any protection is already wildly unrealistic from a "real life" perspective - what they do is simply impossible. But that's okay, it's fantasy after all. I don't think that running really fast before punching is a big enough change to an already-impossible act that it would need some extra requirements. This character already has inhumanly tough hands from a real-life perspective.

Also keep in mind is that even real-life people can probably punch at 70mph or faster. The pop-sci "studies" on punching speed tend to claim that certain athletes can punch at 30+ mph, but these are deeply flawed and the actual speed is almost certainly much faster. Elite baseball players can throw 100mph pitches all night, which means that humans can definitely move their arms that quickly. Obviously they'd obliterate their hand if they smacked it into a brick wall at that speed, but they'd probably be okay if they hit a heavy bag, or someone's gut.

So, even if your character's punching speed is truly additive with their running speed, the total speed probably isn't an order of magnitude greater than what a real human can achieve. And, since their hands are already assumed to be super-humanly tough, why add a Con requirement?

The reason for the con requirement was that originally I had not thought about how tough his hands would have been in the first place. After all, con represents how tough your body is and how well it is built. So I guess to rephrase my question, how high would his con score need to be in order to justify the natural toughness of his fists?

[Oddman80]

I wouldn't add any requirements for con score, chance of injury, etc.

Martial artists / boxers wear gloves not to protect their opponents, but to protect their own hands. Hands break all the time in bare-knuckle matches, which is why no one does bare-knuckle matches. They're boring because the competitors can't hit hard, or they injure their hands and quit or lose. So, any RPG character that focuses on unarmed strikes and doesn't wear any protection is already wildly unrealistic from a "real life" perspective - what they do is simply impossible. But that's okay, it's fantasy after all. I don't think that running really fast before punching is a big enough change to an already-impossible act that it would need some extra requirements. This character already has inhumanly tough hands from a real-life perspective.

Also keep in mind is that even real-life people can probably punch at 70mph or faster. The pop-sci "studies" on punching speed tend to claim that certain athletes can punch at 30+ mph, but these are deeply flawed and the actual speed is almost certainly much faster. Elite baseball players can throw 100mph pitches all night, which means that humans can definitely move their arms that quickly. Obviously they'd obliterate their hand if they smacked it into a brick wall at that speed, but they'd probably be okay if they hit a heavy bag, or someone's gut.

So, even if your character's punching speed is truly additive with their running speed, the total speed probably isn't an order of magnitude greater than what a real human can achieve. And, since their hands are already assumed to be super-humanly tough, why add a Con requirement?

to add on this... highest speed /best punch technique would require the planing of ones feet, in order to whip that hand around. if you are running at 70 mph, you can't plant the foot, you would just have to brace the arm, to get the speed to travel directly to the opponent. if you traveled at 70 mph, then planted the foot, and tried to transfer all the forwaqrd momentum into your fist, you might get a speed higher than you would just punching from standstill (a la javalin throwers taking a small run up to their throw - but even that isn't about speed, but more a bounding technique/motion) but it wouldn't be directly addative,

i guess i am curious, what made you think you could cause more damage by travelling at a higher speed... i believe the only thing built into the 3.5/pathfinder rules for running at an opponent and attacking have to do with the +2 to hit you get for charging... otherwise, every flying creature that has a high flyspeed, and the flyby attack would be doing far more damage than the stat block indicates.

[Spore]

i guess i am curious, what made you think you could cause more damage by travelling at a higher speed... i believe the only thing built into the 3.5/pathfinder rules for running at an opponent and attacking have to do with the +2 to hit you get for charging... otherwise, every flying creature that has a high flyspeed, and the flyby attack would be doing far more damage than the stat block indicates.

A barbarian can do her strength modifier as damage when bullrushing via "Knockback".

[Segev]

Yeah, without writing up new mechanics (perhaps a feat?) to cover this, what you're doing is a charge or spring attack, and uses the rules therefor. No extra damage from your speed, just extra distance you can cover before (and maybe after) you hit.

[TheIronGolem]

The reason for the con requirement was that originally I had not thought about how tough his hands would have been in the first place. After all, con represents how tough your body is and how well it is built. So I guess to rephrase my question, how high would his con score need to be in order to justify the natural toughness of his fists?

You don't "need" any particular CON score; you can justify it independently of that. Maybe your hands are just much tougher than the rest of your body. Or maybe you've developed some exotic punching technique that prevents you from damaging yourself, thus avoiding the need to toughen up as much as another fight might need to. Or maybe you just handwave it since this is all Hollywood Physics anyway. Point is, you can just give your character whatever CON score you feel best fits his overall concept (within the parameters of your roll/point allowance), and punch away with a clean RP conscience.

[Barstro]

What I'm concerned about though is this. How high of a constitution score would he need to not break his hand (or cause it to implode or something like that) as he punches someone at this obscene speed?

This is an argument of trying to apply real world physics to d20. Keep in mind, nothing prevents a monk from punching someone in full plate several times a round.

The RAW of your scenario is someone moves really far (a movement action), then stops, then does an unarmed attack (a standard action). Even if you make it a move/attack action, that's just "Charge" or maybe "Pounce". No rule of which I'm aware says "after a certain distance, at 1d6 for increased momentum". (Cool idea, though).

So, "punches someone at this obscene speed" doesn't really happen.

But let's say you and your DM work something out;

RUNNING ATTACK;

Requirement;
Movement Speed of at least 50

Benefit;
Your heightened movement speed allows you to hit for more damage. On a charge add 1d4 damage for every 10 ft. you moved. This movement does not need to be in a straight line, but must be the shortest route to the target. This extra damage takes a toll on the weapon and must have a hardness of greater than (I don't know; 5 per 10 feet?) or gain the broken condition. Broken weapons cannot be used for such an attack. Unarmed attacks require a Con check of (again, something based on distance) or else attacker sprains her wrist. An attacker cannot use a limb with a sprained wrist for anything (attacking, holding item, somatics); an attacker with two sprained wrists cannot take hold any items, even if more limbs are available. Sprained wrists can be healed with a Con check of (something) per wrist; this is a full round action.

[KindOfGoodGuy]

Did you come up with that as a rule? If not where did you find it? I feel like Paizo needs to make something like this as a type of attack. It would make the opening round of combat much more dramatic.

[Barstro]

I made it up based on your requirements.

[Drackstin]

Well if your a monk, you can use any part of your body as a unarmed strike, so not just fists, you could use head, knee, foot ect. Also there are ways in DnD to go faster then you are now. such as leg grafts, and there is a class called fleet runner that adds 10x speed to charge, but this also adds no extra damage. the only time i heard of move speed adding damage to an attack was when you combined psionic fighter and fleet runner to charge 4000 ft into the air and fall on your opponent in one round doing max falling damage on a charge. movement speed adds nothing to an attack, but it adds alot to jump skill, so give them battle jump and leap attack and other stuff to take advantage of it.

[Frozen_Feet]

I'll take the comparision with falling damage rules posted by Oddman80 as a basis. If you're looking at solely the CON score for structural integrity, you're off the mark. In 3.x., the structural integrity of an object depends on its hardness and hitpoints. In case of a creature, substitute damage reduction for hardness. CON is only one factor out of many that contribute to hitpoints, so you should look past it, at the hitpoint total of the character.

Falling damage rules suggests you would do between 3d6 and 6d6 points of extra damage and sustain as many yourself. Let's take the latter as the baseline. Minimum damage done is 6, so you need at least hardness or DR of 6 to have a chance of being uninjured. The average damage is 21, so in order to be uninjured most of the time you need DR of 22. With DR 6, you need at least 31 hitpoints to completely avoid the chance of being disabled or incapacitated when you punch someone at these speeds. With DR 22, you need at least 15 hitpoints. Without any DR, you'd need 37 hitpoints.

To achieve 37 hitpoints at level 1, you'd need to be a Barbarian, Warblade or other physically fit class for d12 hitdie, with Constitution of 40 or 41. To achieve it at level 2, you'd need to be a lucky Barbarian (etc.) with Con of 24 or 25. So on and so forth.