(3.5) Psywar/Incarnate going into Soul Manifester or other incarnum theurge homebrew

[Phelix-Mu]

Hi there again,

My previous concept for a sneaky/support-type psionic/incarnum theurge has morphed into a psywar/incarnate, either going into Soul Manifester prc or Jeff the Green's Nightwearer homebrew (on this site), adapted to make it work with psionics instead of beguiler and more incarnum-heavy. Props to Jeff the Green on some nice homebrew, by the by; if I get ambitious, I will even link it soon(-ish).

EDIT: Oh, right. All official sources, Dragon Magz on case-by-case basis, no 3rd party, but if you know interesting homebrew or other stuff, feel free to mention it. I am working with ten levels, and likely race is azurin, but, again, other suggestions welcome. I also need to squeak in Expanded Knowledge for touch of healing power from Complete Psionics, to boot. Or maybe I can UPD that....

So, two questions:

1.) Nightwearer requires spellcasting (adapted to manifesting) of 1st level spells, and 8 ranks in Knowledge (now psionics), Sleight of Hand, Hide and Move Silently. Assuming I don't want to dip moer than one level (and would rather dip none at all), how can I most efficiently pick those up?

2.) Soul Manifester requires 2nd level powers and some skill ranks. What's the best method of psywar/incarnate entry? The less cheese the better, but show me your cheese as well so I can judge.

[Phelix-Mu]

*bump to stay on first page*

[Keld Denar]

PsiRogue might be a better option than PsyWar due to skill ranks. 4 ranks CC isn't too hard, especially if you can take Able Learner so it doesn't cost you too many points, but 8 ranks is level 13. You can get Hide and Move Silent as skills with a feat (Guerrilla Tactics or something like that), but I can't think of any way to get Sleight of Hand as a class skill. Lurk is another choice, but Lurk doesn't multiclass as well as PsiRogue.

I'd probably suggest Craven as a feat for the bonus damage it grants, and then shoring up your will save with either a Soulmeld to grant a bonus or something like Planar Ward. I wouldn't TWF, though, since you'll probably be strapped for feats. Then again, TWF + Gloves of the Balanced Hand isn't too hard of a commitment, but Hands are a nice meld slot especially for something like Lightning Gauntlets for touch attack sneak attacking (which should be against AC10 + size + deflection).

Other things to consider might be to take Compression + Dodge + Titanfighting if you are a Whisper Gnomie. I think they still get the AC bonus vs giants. That's +4 AC against everything bigger than you, which is pretty much everything. Combine that with Force Screen and you'll have a pretty respectable AC. Couple Compression with Giant Bane and Underfoot Combat tactical feats might be interesting as well.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Soul Manifester (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) gets 1/2 BAB, so I don't really see any synergy with anything a Psychic Warrior is designed to do. Ardent (with Substitute Powers (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)) would be a significantly better choice, especially considering Practiced Manifester would give you access to higher level powers. You could go Totemist 3/ Ardent 2 (not in that order) and get three mantles and 3rd level powers before taking Soul Manifester.

[Phelix-Mu]

Soul Manifester (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) gets 1/2 BAB, so I don't really see any synergy with anything a Psychic Warrior is designed to do. Ardent (with Substitute Powers (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)) would be a significantly better choice, especially considering Practiced Manifester would give you access to higher level powers. You could go Totemist 3/ Ardent 2 (not in that order) and get three mantles and 3rd level powers before taking Soul Manifester.

Psywar is mainly bonus feats. I'm getting some favorable houserules on incarnum anyway, and another player is playing ardent, so I don't want to step on anyone's toes. My system mastery is higher than everyone else, and I will likely be DMing a good portion of the time, so the optimization I am going for is background support and a bit of ranged combat and covering random skills that aren't covered. It needs to be a character that isn't playing a key role or overshadowing, so I can manage him in and out of the plot when I DM.

I know theurge is suboptimal anyway, but I am confident that I can build up to a pretty high standard even starting with a suboptimal chassis.

[Troacctid]

Besides, normal Incarnates have half BAB and they manage well enough. Adding Psychic Warrior powers to the mix can only help.

[Phelix-Mu]

Besides, normal Incarnates have half BAB and they manage well enough. Adding Psychic Warrior powers to the mix can only help.

The party features a duskblade and a vamped-up soulknife, so I'm not too worried about needing to shoulder combat presence.

I have recalled that I can get Hide and Move Silently as class skills for all classes by taking the Stealthy feat (houserule), but that still leaves Sleight of Hand. And it will be a bunch of skill points, so I am considering going to basic human to help cover that.

I would like to use PsyRogue, but I am a bit intimidated by the power list and the rate of gaining new levels of powers. I don't have much experience with the psionic half-casters and limited list classes, but I could obviously benefit greatly from the skill points (and a bit of precision damage wouldn't be amiss either). Craven would definitely be on the table if this were the case, as it fits this character's personality to a tee.

I am open to considering PsyRogue, but there are a couple of non-negotiables, while keeping in mind that I need to avoid being an ardent or psion theurge (because one of the other players is going more-or-less full ardent):

1.) Expanded Knowledge or native access to touch of healing power, or a way to UPD it or otherwise do support healing out-of-combat. I know there are some tricks involving therapeutic mantle and empathic transfer or something like that, but I'm not too clear on the specifics or how it's supposed to shake out in terms of efficiency.

2.) Decent power access, or enough to get me some Expanded Knowledge to pick up a few utility powers off of other lists. This is where PsyRogue has me worried, and where the bonus feats from PsyWar really seem useful.

So, basically still fielding ideas. What's been given so far is useful, helping me refine my idea of what I really need.

EDIT: It's a ranged combat concept, based on a reskin of the CN incarnate weapon as a ranged weapon of some kind, and being able to take an unaligned Ancestral Relic to apply to the incarnate weapon (obvious houserule).

[Phelix-Mu]

*prime time bump to get first page traffic!*

[Keld Denar]

You'll have to really sit down and look at what powers you want. I'd highly suggest Compression, especially as a ranged character, since the ammo resizes to your normal size once it leaves your possession. Also, the dex bonus from the size change, as well as the size bonus to hit are all gravy. You might want Offensive Precognition, or whichever one gives you +damage, since you'll need some of that, and possibly Force Screen. Other than that, most things will be utility.

Might want to look into Psionic Assassin as well, the one from Secrets of Sarlona. It progresses manifesting (instead of the psionic adaptation of the DMG assassin that has its own progression) and gives Mind Cripple for delicious delicious Int damage.

[Phelix-Mu]

You'll have to really sit down and look at what powers you want. I'd highly suggest Compression, especially as a ranged character, since the ammo resizes to your normal size once it leaves your possession. Also, the dex bonus from the size change, as well as the size bonus to hit are all gravy. You might want Offensive Precognition, or whichever one gives you +damage, since you'll need some of that, and possibly Force Screen. Other than that, most things will be utility.

Might want to look into Psionic Assassin as well, the one from Secrets of Sarlona. It progresses manifesting (instead of the psionic adaptation of the DMG assassin that has its own progression) and gives Mind Cripple for delicious delicious Int damage.

Ooh. Psionic Assassin, you say? Intelligence damage, you say? That is most intriguing. I'll definitely have to look at that.

I might be able to squeak out with PsyRogue, just, as I said, sweating the slow progression and the small list. But since I am planning on a feat for Expanded Knowledge (or two) then maybe I can make that work. You are right, power selection will be key, but I feel bad about dipping PsyRogue then prestiging out right away, as a fair bit of the best stuff comes from more PsyRogue. Guess it's mostly down to my limited experience with lower-tier psionics.

I am a bit torn between a thrown weapon vs a projectile weapon, mostly for flavor differences; I'd like a thrower for the optics, but there seems to be more support for archer. Either way it's down to sighting gloves and the CN incarnate weapon, which I have gotten the okay for a ranged weapon of some kind.

Grr. So many choices. Suppose it's better than the opposite problem, lol.

[Fax Celestis]

Aereni Focus is out if you're an Azurin, but you could see if Skill Knowledge (UA) or Versatile (OA) are available.

Or see if Deft Hands will work the same as Stealthy.

Initiate of Aasterinian adds it but you have to have cleric casting somehow.

[Phelix-Mu]

Aereni Focus is out if you're an Azurin, but you could see if Skill Knowledge (UA) or Versatile (OA) are available.

Or see if Deft Hands will work the same as Stealthy.

Initiate of Aasterinian adds it but you have to have cleric casting somehow.

We also use the houserule that races with bonuses to skills get those skills as class skills, so it seems the easiest entry would be something like whisper gnome with Deft Hands, maybe.

Sadly, the concept is pretty fixed. Gonna play some abnormally large freak who likes to play with sharp objects, so it has to be at least medium. Want the size to not be racial, so he's probably just an unusually tall, bulky/fat human-ish. Whisper gnome doesn't much fit, but I've waffled between human, azurin, and kalashtar.

[Phelix-Mu]

Man, just can't keep this on the first page!

Alas, but at least you all have already been a big help. Thanks.