The Horde Approaches

[Rummy]

I'm running a campaign where the PCs are trying to build a kingdom out of a frontier area (it is loosely using the Pathfinder Kingmaker modules). While out ranging, the party stumbled upon a horde of Gnolls invading the kingdom. At least 1000. Maybe many more. After scouting the Gnoll war camp, the party hightailed it back to the capital, but not before ambushing the Gnoll vanguard. It was a truly epic battle. Four level five PCs against 42 Gnolls, (which included 4 Gnoll pack lords). The party managed to survive because they had a horde breaker sharpshooter ranger who could take out 1-3 Gnolls per turn. That and the cleric saved his two third level spell slots to revivify the warlock and the fighter. They prolly would have had an easier fight if any of them had fireball, but the only AoE spell they had was Hunger of Hadar.

Now what do I do? I'm looking for some good suggestions on how to simulate a long term seige. Btw, I have no idea why I decided to have a horde of Gnolls attack the fledgling kingdom. Honestly, I was just reading my brand new MM and thought a horde of rabid, crazy, demonic hyaena humanoids would be terrifying and cinematic.

[Ferrin33]

Depending on how you want to do it you could have the Gnolls allied to similar demon-spawned creatures like Chimera's, Lamia's, Harpies etc. (The Chimera's enslaved by the gnolls strike a nice chord with me)

[randomodo]

Hmm...interesting problem.

First, think like a gnoll. Gnolls aren't hobgoblins - they aren't organized and disciplined in a way that lends itself to formal sieges. They are perhaps less predictable than more tactically-minded creatures, but their lack of organization leads to exploitable weaknesses.

They're a chaotic band of savages, and they need food and they desire bloodshed.

Probably they aren't going to establish a terribly watertight perimeter around your PC's castle (or town, or whatever). This gives some opportunity to slip out and conduct reconnaissance or raids against the gnolls.

Probably also the gnolls will have foraging parties throughout the area. They are not going to have their own supplies, and will depend on forage (and dead humans, who, well, I guess technically count as forage). This gives the PCs a chance to hurt the siege by targeting foraging parties. The PCs can, most likely, slip out if they need to.

You could run a big guerilla war/fabian strategy, wherein the PCs basically aggro the gnolls and lead the main body on a merry chase through the countryside (thus sparing their population center from the wrath of the gnoll army). This, if done right, gets the gnolls spread out and gives them similar forage problems to what they'd have in a siege (they still have to eat). Thus, they could have exploitable morale problems/internal divisions, or could potentially be defeated in detail.

Alternately, you just have a big battle where they all assault the PC's population centers.

So that's my 2 CP off the top of my head.

[Sartharina]

Also - Feel free to add Ghouls as well, since Dorsain (The King of Ghouls, and "The King") has sworn fealty to Yeenoghu, the Beast of Butchery and Gnoll Lord.

And Party Vrock should be in the house as well.

[Finieous]

Now what do I do? I'm looking for some good suggestions on how to simulate a long term seige.

I would keep it simple and focused on the actions and adventures of the PCs. Use a counter from 0 to 10, starting at 5. If it reaches 0, the kingdom falls; if it reaches 10, the siege is broken. Have it tick down toward 0 at regular, preset intervals. Now come up with some specific strategic or tactical goals the PCs can achieve to move the counter: assassinate the gnoll warlord, train peasants as capable militia, retrieve the Horn of Joramun, prove their authority to the Dead Men of Dunharrow and rally them to the cause, etc.

[Rummy]

I would keep it simple and focused on the actions and adventures of the PCs. Use a counter from 0 to 10, starting at 5. If it reaches 0, the kingdom falls; if it reaches 10, the siege is broken. Have it tick down toward 0 at regular, preset intervals. Now come up with some specific strategic or tactical goals the PCs can achieve to move the counter: assassinate the gnoll warlord, train peasants as capable militia, retrieve the Horn of Joramun, prove their authority to the Dead Men of Dunharrow and rally them to the cause, etc.

I really love this counter idea! Just like the counter in Arkham Horror. Yoink!

[stitchlipped]

I really love this counter idea! Just like the counter in Arkham Horror. Yoink!

Definitely sounds like a great idea, you should go with it.

Also your encounter proves that PCs do not necessarily have to fear large miss of low level creature's which is one of the major complaints I keep hearing about the new edition. Were there any mitigating factors that made the gnolls less than optimal or can I legitimately refer to this case when dealing with the naysayers among my friends?

[Rummy]

Definitely sounds like a great idea, you should go with it.

Also your encounter proves that PCs do not necessarily have to fear large miss of low level creature's which is one of the major complaints I keep hearing about the new edition. Were there any mitigating factors that made the gnolls less than optimal or can I legitimately refer to this case when dealing with the naysayers among my friends?

Tons of difficult terrain meant they took many turns to swarm the PCs. It looked like the Gnolls would be wiped easily, but finally a group of 16 Gnolls were able to surround the warlock, cleric, and fighter. After that, the PCs went down shockingly quickly. TPK for sure without the Ranger's superior mobility and firepower. Also, Bless is amazing when combined with Sharpshooter. Finally, the fighter was an ultra defensive build using the Warforged from the play test, so he had an AC of 22. That meant that he was able to occupy eight attackers for ten rounds before they got lucky with some crits. The warlock and cleric were more normal and the Gnolls chewed them up in three rounds. The ranger did not get touched, although he did break a nail on his bowstring in round 12.

[MustacheFart]

Also your encounter proves that PCs do not necessarily have to fear large miss of low level creature's which is one of the major complaints I keep hearing about the new edition. Were there any mitigating factors that made the gnolls less than optimal or can I legitimately refer to this case when dealing with the naysayers among my friends?

Well, keep in mind two things:

1) He said they had a very specific ranger in their group.

2) The cleric had resurrect two players which means a significant portion of the party (maybe half?) died.

Those are reasons enough to be scared of a large group.



If you want the gnolls to be more organized or able to conduct a traditional siege then just give them a "master". How far along is the city? Maybe the city was built on an ancient Gnoll relic which released an evil spirit/god commanding the gnolls to attack. Perhaps someone or something else has controll of the gnolls in the area and he's using them to try to crush the kingdom.

I agree with the suggestion to throw in related creatures. Nothing but gnolls will get old after a while.

[mephnick]

I like the fact that 40 gnolls can kill a party for once.

The counter idea is really good, I use a similar method for tracking chases and things of that nature.

rando's suggestions are great for running a siege of gnolls. They will definitely give chase to any distraction, so if the town can exploit that with feints and scouts it will really add depth to the siege.

[Envyus]

Ghouls and Ghasts will make nice additions due to their fealty to Yeenoghu. You should also have lots of wild hyenas and have Fangs of Yeenoghu creating more Gnolls by feeding the Hyenas it's kills.

(I found that piece of lore really cool about how if a Hyena eats the creatures slain by a Fang they transform into new gnolls.)

[Rummy]

Ghouls and Ghasts will make nice additions due to their fealty to Yeenoghu. You should also have lots of wild hyenas and have Fangs of Yeenoghu creating more Gnolls by feeding the Hyenas it's kills.

(I found that piece of lore really cool about how if a Hyena eats the creatures slain by a Fang they transform into new gnolls.)

Actually, that is how the outbreak occurred. At the gnoll Warcamp, the party saw pens that were used to hold hyenas and an altar with a flayed unicorn where the Fang of Yeenoghu created Gnolls. So only one fang was my thought. Also, part of the mystery will be figuring out who supplied the hyenas. Gnolls are too chaotic to pull this off by themselves.

I like the idea of ghouls and ghasts. I'm also considering throwing in a few demons that will act as living seige engines.

Also, thanks for the suggestion about making the seige loose and chaotic. That is how I envision Gnolls behaving and it allows the Party to act as guerrilla scirmishers. I am interested to see how much of the kingdom they can protect before reinforcements arrive from their allies.

[Shining Wrath]

Let me add my voice to the Counter = win crowd.

Getting food into the besieged city ought to be one way to add time.

Gnolls and their pals will be foraging far and wide. Making contact with friends (or even enemies who aren't chaotic evil lunatics) could result in other people picking off the raiders. In fact, the longer the siege runs, the further the gnolls must forage (unless they get some food by sacking part of the city). At some point the gnolls will be crossing national borders and not caring, because they are after all chaotic evil lunatics.

Who is going to break through enemy lines and go on a dangerous diplomatic mission to the neighbors? Who but the party?

However, don't forget the end of Hamlet, or for that matter a fair bit of Game of Thrones. An army that shows up at the end isn't necessarily there to help.

[Envyus]

Well on the Hyenas they consider Gnolls their kin so they tend to be attracted to them anyway. But you could easily make it more clear that this is strange by having it be clear that this is an unnatural amount of Hyenas for this area.

Another fun idea is to bring in Giant Hyenas that the Gnolls use as mounts. Maybe even custom make Giant Gnolls that are created when they eat Fang Kills.

For myself I like to also have a hard cap on how many monsters are actually part of this army. You said it was little more then a thousand. So it could be something like 1035 Gnolls, 40 pack lords, 1 Fang. 578 Hyenas that have not been turned into Gnolls. Then you can freely add the allied members of the horde like Ghouls and such.

Then whenever you have an encounter that features these guys as the enemy. You subtract the ones you used in the encounter from the total. While also decreasing and increasing the number of gnolls from other scenarios like Infighting, battles that don't involve the pc's and Hyena's being turned into Gnolls.

When they take a certain amount of losses you can use that counter idea that everyone likes to mark a point against the horde as well.

[Rummy]

Thanks so much for all the great ideas. I love the idea of giant hyena used as mounts.

Also... A plug for 5e. I would never been able to pull off a 4 vs 42 combat in 4e. The speed and simplicity of 5e is large improvement.

[INDYSTAR188]

Also - Feel free to add Ghouls as well, since Dorsain (The King of Ghouls, and "The King") has sworn fealty to Yeenoghu, the Beast of Butchery and Gnoll Lord.

And Party Vrock should be in the house as well.

Could you please expand on this a bit or throw up a link to more info? I'm running a 4E campaign now and the players are about to confront Dorsain on their way to dealing with Orcus. I thought he was his creature thru and thru, although tretchery in the abyss shouldn't suprise anyone, I'm more surprised Orcus didn't destroy him on his way out the door.

[Envyus]

Could you please expand on this a bit or throw up a link to more info? I'm running a 4E campaign now and the players are about to confront Dorsain on their way to dealing with Orcus. I thought he was his creature thru and thru, although tretchery in the abyss shouldn't suprise anyone, I'm more surprised Orcus didn't destroy him on his way out the door.

Doresain's backstory in 5e.


Ghouls trace their origins to the
Abyss. Doresain, the first of their kind, was an elf
worshiper of Orcus. Turning against his own people, he
feasted on humanoid flesh to honor the Demon Prince of
Undeath. As a reward for his service, Orcus transformed
Doresain into the first ghoul. Doresain served Orcus
faithfully in the Abyss, creating ghouls from the demon
lord's other servants until an incursion by Yeenoghu,
the demonic Gnoll Lord, robbed Doresain of his abyssal
domain. When Orcus would not intervene on his behalf,
Doresain turned to the elf gods for salvation, and
they took pity on him and helped him escape certain
destruction. Since then, elves have been immune to the
ghouls' paralytic touch.

After this despite being saved. Yeenoghu later forced him into service to gain control of the Ghouls. He was subordinate to Yeenoghu in 1e and beyond before losing Doresain to Orcus in 4e. As of 5e Doresain and his layer of the Abyss the White Kingdom is back under the Prince of Gnolls control.

[Shining Wrath]

For a plot twist, is it possible there are cultists or other CE types within the walls who will try to throw open the gates at a critical moment? Not that you want that to happen, you want the party to discover the plot.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Clearly instead of giant hyenas, it should be gnolls riding giant gnolls.

[Strill]

Clearly instead of giant hyenas, it should be gnolls riding giant gnolls.

What do you mean? The Giant Gnolls are bigger and stronger. They should be the leaders, so THEY should be riding the normal gnolls.

[EvilAnagram]

To understand the gnoll race, let's look at Yeenoghu, the demon lord of the gnolls. He is an insane demigod devoted to slaughter and butchering masses of creatures. His home is a mobile pyramid of bone pulled by thousands of tortured slaves in the center of the Abyss, slaves permitted to live only so long as they prove useful, then butchered and consumed. He is worshipped as a god by the gnolls, who delight in barbaric and savage slaughter and little else. They are, to an individual, thralls to the Demon Prince of Ruin, and he demands that they pillage and murder and enslave the world, that it might fall under his dominion. His armor is a patchwork of the bloody skins of his enemies. He wields a three-headed flail with a handle carved from the thighbone of a god he slew in an age before any mortal race ever walked. The dead god's blood and tears poison every blow it strikes.

Now, let's talk about the gnolls, themselves.

As others have mentioned, the gnolls will not be interested in any resources save what they can kill, enslave, eat, or use to kill, enslave and eat. They will pillage weapons and armor from the battlefield, and their commanders will likely wear armor scraps torn off of the corpses of fallen champions and formed from the body parts of felled creatures (e.g.: a breastplate formed from the skull of an ogre). They will wield weapons made from bones and flint and jagged iron.

Their pillaging nature can be used to hit the heroes where it hurts.

The mayor of town tells the heroes to alert the outlying farmsteads of the gnoll danger. The heroes meet a group of farmers who, and this is very important, are delightful. There's a husband and wife couple who keep picking at each other. They're witty and hilarious. The party loves them. The farmer carries a bright bronze sickle with him. There's a shepherdess who carries a bright white shepherd's crook. She's sweet and attractive, and one of the party members hits on her (they always do). The couple and the woman stay back to alert neighboring steadholders, freeing the party up to cover more ground.

Then, have the local guard captain tell them to organize their defenses. They spend the night shoring up defenses around the gate and stand watch during the night.

Gnolls aren't very strategic, but they're cunning. They don't camp outside the city. Instead, they attack the nearby farmsteads and hide in the nearby forest killing anyone who uses the roads running by it. They launch their first attack on the city by infiltrating it in the middle of the night. An elite group scales the wall and goes building-to-building murdering their way through townsfolk. They empty three homes and a guardhouse before they're discovered. Is there a local merchant the party loves? He dies.

The guard captain? The party catches up with him just before he falls to the blade of a gnoll. The gnoll immediately starts desecrating his corpse. As they fight the gnolls, note that one of them wields a bloody bronze sickle. Another carries a shepherd's crook that it uses as a club and has teeth dangling from it. A third has made severed fingers into a necklace. One of them has the farmer's wife's wedding ring on it.

Make your players squirm.

After the raid, the mayor should let them know that while several corpses were found, several are missing. Gnolls like to take slaves for various unsavory purposes, including using them as thralls. Another purpose, however, is to sacrifice them to Yeenoghu so that their souls are pulled into the abyss to serve as thralls to their demon lord. The party has to find the gnoll camp in time to stop the sacrifice and save the remaining townsfolk, one of whom should be someone they are very attached to. If they fail their checks to find it, they arrive in time to see their favorite villager die horribly. And I mean horribly. They need to hate these gnolls.

Another encounter would be the gnolls driving a pair of enslaved ogres or trolls into the gate. The party has to keep them from breaking it down.

The gnolls start building a catapult. When it's finished, they use it to fling body parts into town. If the party doesn't stop it, disease spreads through the town.

Finally, let them come up with ideas on how to handle the gnolls. A party will be infinitely more attached to a plan that they come up with, and you should give it a chance even if it's kind of silly.

The counter could be a good idea.


Also - Feel free to add Ghouls as well, since Dorsain (The King of Ghouls, and "The King") has sworn fealty to Yeenoghu, the Beast of Butchery and Gnoll Lord.

Nah. The last mention of Doresain made him an exarch of Orcus. (4e Monster Manual)

[VoxRationis]

If you really want a 'horde,' you're going to need a lot more than a thousand. A thousand isn't even a single Roman legion. Hell, that 42-gnoll group the party faced was a not-insignificant portion of their numbers. Arming the able-bodied men and women (I don't care if the society's egalitarian or not; this situation will probably involve women defending their homes as well) in the city should be the PCs' top priority, as it would allow them to field a force of comparable numbers to the gnolls. I'm not sure what kind of defenses or fortifications are in place, but if there are even rammed-earth walls, I'd feel reasonably good about the upcoming battle as a PC. Gnolls and hyenas are not known for their skill at siegecraft or ranged combat; a wall with slingers or crossbowmen atop it would pose a significant hurdle for them.

[INDYSTAR188]

Doresain's backstory in 5e.

"Ghouls trace their origins to the Abyss. Doresain, the first of their kind, was an elf worshiper of Orcus. Turning against his own people, he feasted on humanoid flesh to honor the Demon Prince of Undeath. As a reward for his service, Orcus transformed Doresain into the first ghoul. Doresain served Orcus faithfully in the Abyss, creating ghouls from the demon lord's other servants until an incursion by Yeenoghu, the demonic Gnoll Lord, robbed Doresain of his abyssal domain. When Orcus would not intervene on his behalf, Doresain turned to the elf gods for salvation, and they took pity on him and helped him escape certain destruction. Since then, elves have been immune to the ghouls' paralytic touch."

After this despite, being saved, Yeenoghu later forced him into service to gain control of the Ghouls. He was subordinate to Yeenoghu in 1e and beyond before losing Doresain to Orcus in 4e. As of 5e Doresain and his layer of the Abyss the White Kingdom is back under the Prince of Gnolls control.

Huh... TIL. So... is Orcus trying to get him back? Where did you get the 5E story from? I feel like there's probably all sorts of cool backstory I don't know enough about when it comes to the published fiendish greater powers (Orcus, Yeenoghu, Pale Night, etc) and the dukes and archdukes (which I know less about than the fiends).

[Envyus]

Nah. The last mention of Doresain made him an exarch of Orcus. (4e Monster Manual)

New monster manual info. He is back with Yeenoghu.


Huh... TIL. So... is Orcus trying to get him back? Where did you get the 5E story from? I feel like there's probably all sorts of cool backstory I don't know enough about when it comes to the published fiendish greater powers (Orcus, Yeenoghu, Pale Night, etc) and the dukes and archdukes (which I know less about than the fiends).
Monster Manual 5e. It does not mention anything about Orcus and Doresain after it mentioned that Orcus did not bother helping him against Yeenoghu.


On learning about Fiends. Fiendish Codex 1 and 2 are pretty great for learning. It's from 3.5 so some stuff will change or have changed. (Bel archdevil of the 1st layer of hell has been usurped by Zariel the Archdevil he usurped to gain control of the first layer for example.)

[stitchlipped]

New monster manual info. He is back with Yeenoghu.


Monster Manual 5e. It does not mention anything about Orcus and Doresain after it mentioned that Orcus did not bother helping him against Yeenoghu.

5e has simply reset some things. But that's fine, the GM can either ignore the 4e lore if it's not been established in their game yet, or come up with their own cool story for why and how Yeenoghu has taken Doresain back!

[Yoroichi]

Off the top of my head:

The gnoll horde could have acted as a vanguard for another kind of horde :0

The gnoll horde could be secretly controlled by a warlock who needs to perform a ritual at the specific location of where the town is built in order to bring his patron gods avatar in the material plane (which happens to be the same god as the gnolls have). This includes organisation of gnolls and purpose of the siege. The gnoll companies could be commanded into order by fear of a demonic creature (which if falls could cause chaos in the battlefield).

The gnoll horde could only be passing trough and are looking to establish camp somewhere new, as the have been forced to migrate by natural disaster/great beast/other warring tribe/race

[Abithrios]

I like the fact that 40 gnolls can kill a party for once.

The counter idea is really good, I use a similar method for tracking chases and things of that nature.

rando's suggestions are great for running a siege of gnolls. They will definitely give chase to any distraction, so if the town can exploit that with feints and scouts it will really add depth to the siege.

A low level party can totally be threatened by large numbers of gnolls in 3.5. Just because 3.5 can simulate the sort of demigods that high level characters become does not mean you have to use it that way.

Do beseiged people have walls? Do they have horses or some other type of mount? A unit of mounted soldiers riding out from the gates can be good for hitting weak spots in the enemies ranks or protecting any allies that are trying to return from the field.

Choose the scale of the counter carefully. If you choose a range of -100 to 100 you can give small rewards for small contributions, such as a single point for every few enemies killed, a point for every X amount of materiel stolen, a point for every Y meals denied the enemies (if they are ganking a gnoll foraging party), a point for every Z meals they provide the defenders (keep in mind not all gnoll food is edible to humans, and that if the gnolls have too much trouble finding food while the defenders grow fat, the gnolls may decide to move on to somewhere where they would be less hungry), and so on in addition to larger rewards for bigger objectives.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Might be a bit late to the party here...but you should definitely look at the first adventure in the Hoard of the Dragon Queen book for 5E. It has a very siege-like set-up that could be useful in getting a good feel for a siege. It's also a nice book to rummage through for stats and encounter ideas.

[Rummy]

Might be a bit late to the party here...but you should definitely look at the first adventure in the Hoard of the Dragon Queen book for 5E. It has a very siege-like set-up that could be useful in getting a good feel for a siege. It's also a nice book to rummage through for stats and encounter ideas.

While I think this is a great suggestion, I lent my copy to the DM in the game I play in... So no peeking for me.

[Sartharina]

After the raid, the mayor should let them know that while several corpses were found, several are missing.

This is out-of-character for gnolls. The only reason they'd leave bodies is if they're driven off - otherwise, what they don't enslave, they eat. Bone and all.

[stitchlipped]

This is out-of-character for gnolls. The only reason they'd leave bodies is if they're driven off - otherwise, what they don't enslave, they eat. Bone and all.

The gnolls could be in an extremely uneasy alliance with some other force that might take prisoners though.

[Envyus]

This is out-of-character for gnolls. The only reason they'd leave bodies is if they're driven off - otherwise, what they don't enslave, they eat. Bone and all.

Yeah all that would be left would maybe a few scraps of clothing and bloodstains


The gnolls could be in an extremely uneasy alliance with some other force that might take prisoners though.

They take prisoners all the time. They love having slaves and sacrifices. The out of character part is that they would leave corpses those are good eating.