The Ideal Four-Person Party

[atemu1234]

I'm going to be running a new group soon and I'm gearing it to have four players. I want three of them to be melee and one to be a spellcaster, but apart from that, the details are all up in the air. Provided all builds are the same tier, I'm allowing anything from 3e/3.5/PF. Also, nothing cheesy.

[Seerow]

I'm going to be running a new group soon and I'm gearing it to have four players. I want three of them to be melee and one to be a spellcaster, but apart from that, the details are all up in the air. Provided all builds are the same tier, I'm allowing anything from 3e/3.5/PF. Also, nothing cheesy.

3 melee, 1 spellcaster, all on the same tier?

Seems like the obvious answer is Wizard (spellcaster), Cleric (melee), Druid (Melee), Artificer (Melee).


But seriously, why 3 melee in one group?

[atemu1234]

3 melee, 1 spellcaster, all on the same tier?

Seems like the obvious answer is Wizard (spellcaster), Cleric (melee), Druid (Melee), Artificer (Melee).


But seriously, why 3 melee in one group?

3 people want effective melee characters, only one wants to be a spellcaster.

[OldTrees1]

Wait, you are choosing their characters? Any information about their likes/dislikes?
Starting level?

2 Warriors with different styles
Crusader X
Warblade X

1 Skilled Warrior
Ranger X (Wildshape and Trap Expert alternate class features)

1 Healer/Spellcaster of the same tier
Human Dread Necromancer X with these feats: Precocious Apprentice[Animate Dead], Arcane Disciple[Renewal Domain], Versatile Spellcaster, and Touch of Healing

[Extra Anchovies]

Wait, you are choosing their characters? Any information about their likes/dislikes?
Starting level?

2 Warriors with different styles
Crusader X
Warblade X

1 Skilled Warrior
Ranger X (Wildshape and Trap Expert alternate class features)

1 Healer/Spellcaster of the same tier
Human Dread Necromancer X with these feats: Precocious Apprentice[Animate Dead], Arcane Disciple[Renewal Domain], Versatile Spellcaster, and Touch of Healing

Ditch touch of healing, and have everyone in the party take Tomb-Tainted Soul. Now you have all the healing you need. As for the Initiator's styles, I would recommend a tanky THF crusader and a TWF Warblade with some precision-damage dips (one level in Rogue; one in Sneak Attack Fighter; two in Swordsage at the mid-levels for Assassin's Stance, the Desert Wind maneuver that grants free flanking for a round, and maybe Island of Blades).

Also, how does Dread Necro get Precocious Apprentice (Animate Dead)? It's only a second-level spell for Death Masters.

[OldTrees1]

Ditch touch of healing, and have everyone in the party take Tomb-Tainted Soul. Now you have all the healing you need.

Also, how does Dread Necro get Precocious Apprentice (Animate Dead)? It's only a second-level spell for Death Masters.

Touch of Healing can heal non party members too. It is one feat either way for the Dread Necromancer(if they want to heal themselves) but one way costs everyone else a feat. Shrug.

Recently someone pointed out to me that Precocious Apprentice goes by schools of magic that you have access to rather than spells you have access to. Thus Dread Necromancers can take Death Master's Animate Dead Spell.

[Kraken]

Beguiler for the caster, factotum, warblade, and psychic warrior for melee. Gives a fairly diverse array of powers.

[Extra Anchovies]

Another suggestion:

Cleric (archery)
Cleric (melee)
Cloistered Cleric (skills, buffs, healing, melee support)
Wizard (casting) - Make sure he calls himself a cleric; a level of Runesmith would help him fit in.

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

[Amphetryon]

Beguiler (caster), Dread Necromancer (go mounted, and be a combatant), Crusader, Binder. All of the last 3 can be perfectly good at melee, while all 4 have enough versatility to at least be able to branch out if the need arises.

[Ssalarn]

Bard (Arcane Duelist) - Melee, Alchemist w/ Feral Mutagen - Melee, Inquistor w/ Anger Inquisition - Melee, Shaman - Spellcaster.

There you go, a party of all roughly equal Tier characters with 3 melee monsters and a good full caster.

[Gulnar]

If one of your player fancy the idea, you could give him a synthesist.

Also, tob classes/pow classes are good.

I would go with a synthesist, a warlord from pow, a slayer and a shaman.

[Ssalarn]

If one of your player fancy the idea, you could give him a synthesist.

Also, tob classes/pow classes are good.

I would go with a synthesist, a warlord from pow, a slayer and a shaman.

He asked for them to the same Tier, but Shaman is a T2/T3 (build and level dependent), Synthesist is a T2, and Warlord and Slayer are T4, so there's a bit of a gap in party Tier there.

[Chaosvii7]

This came up in another topic or forum. My answer is still the same; Four bards.

[ranagrande]

Tier 5: Fighter, Healer, Knight, Ninja

[sideswipe]

kobold paladin (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1013486), elf artificer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16917909&postcount=2), keeper factotum going exemplar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?238255-New-amp-Improved-Assplomancer) and a human cleric (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1007491)

[Fouredged Sword]

Wizard wizard wizard and wizard?

One is an anything (human) Wizard 5 / Ruthar 3 / Abjurant champion 5 with shape soulmeld (asteral vembrances) to get him through 1st level. - Untouchable melee

One is a human Wizard 3 / Master Specialist 4 / master transmogrifist 6 with trollblooded and toughness to survive first level. - Unkillable melee

One is an anything Wizard 3 / master specialist 4 / Malconvoker 10 - Expendable melee

And finally the last is a wizard 5 / Incantrix X who persists everyone's spells so everyone rocks. - Spellcaster

[fishyfishyfishy]

Ideal for newbies? Pick 4 classes from tier 3 and run with it. Let the three who want to melee run the three TOB base classes and give the last one a beguiler or a bard. They'll stay around the same power level and everyone will have unique abilities. The swordsage could be replaced with factotum if you feel like they need trapfinding.

[Oracle_of_Void]

Barbarian, fighter, magus for melee and qinggong monk for a caster.

[Extra Anchovies]

Warforged Totemist 2/Whirling Frenzy Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 4/Totem Rager 10/Totemist 4, for pounce badassery
Binder 6/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5/Binder +9, for combat support and versatility
Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 10, for multiple-full-attacks badassery
Beguiler 20, for skillmonkeying and casting

All of them are mid/high T3 or very low T2. Only the Binder and Beguiler run risks of breaking the game (through Summon shenanigans and through charm/compulsion/diplomancy shenanigans), but the Totemist and Warblade have an equal chance of breaking the face of anyone they fight.

[Coidzor]

I'm going to be running a new group soon and I'm gearing it to have four players. I want three of them to be melee and one to be a spellcaster, but apart from that, the details are all up in the air. Provided all builds are the same tier, I'm allowing anything from 3e/3.5/PF. Also, nothing cheesy.

No details or restrictions other than htiting things at melee range?

[Galen]

Bard, Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade

All four very straightforward, single-class builds with zero cheese.

[Divide by Zero]

Cleric, Cleric, Cleric, Cloistered Cleric

[Yael]

Come on, guys. Give the OP a break on the cleric's T1 gamebreaking capabilities.

How about Favored Soul, Favored Soul, Favored Soul, and Sorcerer? Seems pretty balanced to me.

Blue equals sarcasm, for now.

[sideswipe]

vanilla fighter, complete warrior samurai, vanilla monk, truenamer.
done and done.

[Gwendol]

Warmage
Barbarian
Paladin
Rogue (or Daring Outlaw)

or

Beguiler
Favored Soul
Knight
Swift Hunter

[Curbstomp]

Gwendol's suggestions seem good for the OP.

[gooddragon1]

vanilla fighter, complete warrior samurai, vanilla monk, truenamer.
done and done.

This post is not unlike telling a counterstrike source player to press f10 in game or alt+f4...

The 'iconic' party is:
Cleric=Priest (more powerful early and still good but the wizard has more cheese)
Wizard=Mage (most powerful)
Fighter=Fighter (*sadface*)
Rogue=Thief (Below cleric and wizard but above fighter)

[Eldan]

The problem is, with three melee guys, you need one caster to solve all magical problems. Incorporeal creatures, curses, negative levels, enchantments, environmental obstacles, everything. So, Archivist? Bard might work, if you offer some bonus spells that aren't normally on the list, say, by Arcane Disciple.

[aleucard]

There are a few goal-posts that need to be hit soundly to be an ideal party (assuming T3 or higher, T4 might not be able to cover all the bases they may need to, or at least has a higher chance).

First, the party needs to be able to deal with ambushes of several kinds. This can mean detecting them as they're coming in, knowing a hostile is present before it knows you are, being uncatchable by an ambush (either through stealth or mobility), and of course surviving the surprise round if the previous stuff doesn't work.

Second, they need to be able to get where they're going in both reasonable amounts of time and with minimal permanent damage along the way. This is connected to the previous point, but also incorporates raw travel speed, endurance for forced marches and similar, access to non-land movements when the destination and/or the obstacles make walking untenable, access to trap-mitigation when they can't be walked around (and hopefully your ambush detection methods can cover detecting traps too), and of course the ability to determine where you're going in the first place (which could itself mean tracking, divination, and/or intelligence gathering depending on the situation; maps and directions aren't always provided for free, and they aren't always enough).

Third, they need to be able to fight and at least hold their own in any number of terrains and conditions. This includes but is FAR from limited to ranged combat, melee combat, underwater combat, midair combat, unarmed combat, AMF combat, naked combat, and any combination thereof; the more targets hit, the better.

Fourth and finally, they need to be able to interact with others in a meaningful way that doesn't directly involve combat. This is mostly roleplay, but any mechanical advantage that can be found will be helpful, even without such cheese as high-level Diplomacy. Provided that your DM does not force such things in a negative way, being able to roll a d20 and make the DM tell you what you want to know on a successful check can be infinitely more hassle-free than trying to decipher an NPC's ramblings. Roleplaying is nice, but one does not need to indulge ALL the time, especially when realistically only one of the players will be involved.

The iconic way of performing this is with a party comprised as follows.

A Melee Beefcake to serve as shield for the rest of the party from frontal assault and in general be a walking meat-grinder for the opposition. One of the best classes for this in T3 is the Warblade, though making things that serve this role well is not all TOO difficult if the player knows what they're doing. The biggest issue here is making them competent at ranged combat, but several things can be found that apply to both types, so a dual-progression isn't hard. If necessary, a Warblade's Retraining mechanic allows one to switch from one type of Exotic Weapon to another within 24 hours, and there are several of both melee and ranged varieties that are effective.

A Sneak to serve as scout, trap-finder, sensor, trouble-shooter and probably frontman if no other player picked something iconic for the role (Paladin springs to mind). Factotum is practically this concept incarnate, with mild to moderate dipping in Swordsage to shore up its martial chops. This type of character is nearly guaranteed to have more skill points than any other role in the party, quite possibly by double or more. This allows for them to pick up several generally useful skills and skill tricks that would otherwise be too unnecessary in comparison to others for the player to justify the SP expenditure. In a pinch, they can also do spot-weld versions of the two Casters' jobs as well, which is always nice if one of them goes down.

A Divine Caster to serve as Buffer, most likely secondary Beefcake (and the T1 version may be better at it than the character actually dedicated to the role, but that's the nature of T1), special enemy sweeper (some undead are downright MEAN on parties without Divine Casters), Minionmancer, General Magic Utility, and Medic duty when the party doesn't want to burn a sizable chunk of their GP on it (and someone that can use those wands without a check needed is nice in a world without Take 10 UMD). If the name of the game is T3, then you'll probably be stuck with a Ranger (Wildshape preferably) or a somewhat optimized Paladin. T1 is CoDzilla, obviously. While not absent per se, directly offensive magic is blatantly a secondary concern at best, though some gems do exist in this category. In trade, there's a very good chance that if there's something that needs done, the Divine Caster has at least one spell that'll help someone do it. They're also the generally accepted best chassis for most flavors of Minionmancy, so if you want to fight goon swarms with your own, this is the way to do it.

An Arcane Caster to serve as Offensive Magic specialist, General Magic Utility (there's SOME overlap, but not all), secondary Minionmancer, Buffer (several of the options here are distinct from Divine magic), Battlefield Control, Diviner, and Sniper (as in one shot one kill) or Nuke (as in kill everything from here to the horizon) in a pinch. Beguiler and Dread Necromancer are the primary offerings at T3, while higher is dominated by the Wizard. Realistically, at the higher levels, this is the most versatile archetype available, made doubly so by the fact that it can actually do those disparate things well with only a little effort. It does have some unique things to it, though. It being both the most targeted archetype and the lowest-HP one is nearly a fact of life, though, so some degree of paranoia is expected. The fact that it has access to monstrosities such as Contingent Spell is testament to this fact.

[Gwendol]

Bard is most likely the best T3 arcane caster. I don't see the Beguiler or DN cover the same ground.

[Killer Angel]

The problem is, with three melee guys, you need one caster to solve all magical problems. Incorporeal creatures, curses, negative levels, enchantments, environmental obstacles, everything. So, Archivist? Bard might work, if you offer some bonus spells that aren't normally on the list, say, by Arcane Disciple.

Unless the "melee" characters don't have some way to help on that side (ranger and similar). But it must be carefully planned.

[Amphetryon]

Bard is most likely the best T3 arcane caster. I don't see the Beguiler or DN cover the same ground.

At the risk of setting up a Schroedinger's Scenario, what ground do you see uncovered by Beguiler and/or DN that a Bard can handle?

[Eldan]

At the risk of setting up a Schroedinger's Scenario, what ground do you see uncovered by Beguiler and/or DN that a Bard can handle?

Going just by the base spell list, as opposed to Arcane Disciple or items? Healing, for one.

[Amphetryon]

Going just by the base spell list, as opposed to Arcane Disciple or items? Healing, for one.

Tomb-Tainted Soul and/or UMD seems ample, here, given the general opinion that in-combat healing is either a bad idea or a last-ditch desperation move to save a dying comrade.

[Yahzi]

What's wrong with Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, and Cleric? It doesn't sound like you need massive op. The cleric will spend so much time healing he'll never notice he's op.

[sideswipe]

What's wrong with Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, and Cleric? It doesn't sound like you need massive op. The cleric will spend so much time healing he'll never notice he's op.

going with this have the cleric DMM persist buffs and mass lesser vigor. this means that he doesn't just spend the whole of his power keeping the low op characters alive.

[lytokk]

Elven Duskblade, Warforged Crusader, Halfling Swordsage, and Human Warmage.

Got even tiers here, two arcane casters, a beefy tank and a sneaktheif. I'd say this creates a good even party with most of the essentials taken care of. Maybe replace the swordsage with a bard, that way you'll have access to CLW wands. Or replace the Warmage with a Warlock.

[Gwendol]

What's wrong with Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, and Cleric? It doesn't sound like you need massive op. The cleric will spend so much time healing he'll never notice he's op.

It goes against the wishes of the OP? Nothing wrong though, but is it ideal?

[Gwendol]

At the risk of setting up a Schroedinger's Scenario, what ground do you see uncovered by Beguiler and/or DN that a Bard can handle?

Healing, buffing, mainly. The bard has a somewhat more varied list of spells, and more so once getting into sublime chord.

[Manly Man]

And, if they take advantage of some silliness, a Crusader can do all their necessary healing by just clapping them over the head with crusader's strike, or somesuch, even out of battle. If the DM rules that they have to actually take a hit, the idea of seeing someone hamfist their buddies to start closing wounds is actually pretty funny.

Bard: "Oh, my knee! Curse those kobolds and their arrow traps...!"

Crusader: (punches Bard in the stomach)

Bard: "Oof! What in the Nine Hells was that for, you damned wow, that actually feels pretty good."

[aleucard]

Bard is most likely the best T3 arcane caster. I don't see the Beguiler or DN cover the same ground.

Bard doesn't really count as an Arcane Caster. It's more of an Arcane/Divine hybrid class, having aspects of both. I was looking for things that were solidly in their own archetype, and the fixed list casters are the best options available that are at or under T3 for that.

[Gwendol]

Bard doesn't really count as an Arcane Caster. It's more of an Arcane/Divine hybrid class, having aspects of both. I was looking for things that were solidly in their own archetype, and the fixed list casters are the best options available that are at or under T3 for that.

True. My own suggestions likewise used the fixed list casters rather than the bard.

[danzibr]

It's already been suggested, but to add my two cents:

Dwarf Cleric, Dwarf Cleric, Dwarf Cleric, Dwarf Cleric.

[Gwendol]

It's already been suggested, but to add my two cents:

Dwarf Cleric, Dwarf Cleric, Dwarf Cleric, Dwarf Cleric.

And here's the comic to go with it: http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=247

[torrasque666]

And, if they take advantage of some silliness, a Crusader can do all their necessary healing by just clapping them over the head with crusader's strike, or somesuch, even out of battle. If the DM rules that they have to actually take a hit, the idea of seeing someone hamfist their buddies to start closing wounds is actually pretty funny.

Bard: "Oh, my knee! Curse those kobolds and their arrow traps...!"

Crusader: (punches Bard in the stomach)

Bard: "Oof! What in the Nine Hells was that for, you damned wow, that actually feels pretty good."

Yeah, I used to think that too. Then I actually read the maneuvers that do the healing. They all say, and not in the fluff part mind you, that the enemy creature whose alignment is at least one component different from yours must pose a threat to your allies in some direct, immediate way.

So sadly, no punching your friends to heal them.

[Manly Man]

Yeah, I used to think that too. Then I actually read the maneuvers that do the healing. They all say, and not in the fluff part mind you, that the enemy creature whose alignment is at least one component different from yours must pose a threat to your allies in some direct, immediate way.

So sadly, no punching your friends to heal them.

Claim that their state of health (wounded) is a threat to them and their well-being?

[Red Fel]

Claim that their state of health (wounded) is a threat to them and their well-being?

Then you should just be a Warblade and IHS away the state of (my friend is wounded).

[torrasque666]

Not an enemy at that point.

[lytokk]

Claim that their state of health (wounded) is a threat to them and their well-being?

you're not attacking your allies, you're attacking the bacteria that's threatening your ally by attacking the open wound in his chest.

[Manly Man]

Then you should just be a Warblade and IHS away the state of (my friend is wounded).

I would totally do that too, if I was dealing with an irritating DM.


you're not attacking your allies, you're attacking the bacteria that's threatening your ally by attacking the open wound in his chest.

Also, this. Would the skill check to know about that kind of stuff be Heal, Knowledge (nature), or Profession (biologist)?

[Sam K]

+1 for the 3 ToB classes for melee. It has several advantages:


Each class has a distinct feel despite all being melee fighters.
Self contained. Even though ToB-classes is more complicated than standard fighters, its lack of splatbook support is an advantage for new players. You don't need to cross reference 6 books to make a build work.
Little planning needed. You don't have to map out your feat progression at level 1 to remain viable. If the warblade wants to try being a tank, he can. If the swordsage wants to pick a few moves that suck, just because they're cool, he's not gimped by this choice.
You get melees that can contribute with buffing, healing and magic damage.


I would suggest a favored soul for the caster. Not as OP as cleric, no metamagic shenanigans or domains to worry about, but still has access to a flexible spell list. Stricly speaking favored soul is probably T2, but you could ban/restrict planar bindings and miracle and they should be about as powerful as the melees, atleast in the hands of inexperienced players.

[Extra Anchovies]

Yeah, I used to think that too. Then I actually read the maneuvers that do the healing. They all say, and not in the fluff part mind you, that the enemy creature whose alignment is at least one component different from yours must pose a threat to your allies in some direct, immediate way.

So sadly, no punching your friends to heal them.

Say you're the LG Crusader. The NG Favored Soul and the CN Swordsage are injured. Swordsage starts punching the Favored Soul, you punch the Swordsage, and heal the Favored Soul. Favored Soul starts punching the Swordsage, you punch the Favored Soul, and heal the Swordsage. The Favored Soul then uses their spells to heal you and the LG Warblade, who you can't heal via this because you're of the same alignment. Sketchy as heck, but if the DM doesn't allow this you could always have the Swordsage pick up Tomb-Tainted Soul, take a level in Shadow Sun Ninja, and take care of out-of-combat healing by using Touch of the Shadow Sun on themselves and then healing someone else in the party.


+1 for the 3 ToB classes for melee. It has several advantages:


Each class has a distinct feel despite all being melee fighters.
Self contained. Even though ToB-classes is more complicated than standard fighters, its lack of splatbook support is an advantage for new players. You don't need to cross reference 6 books to make a build work.
Little planning needed. You don't have to map out your feat progression at level 1 to remain viable. If the warblade wants to try being a tank, he can. If the swordsage wants to pick a few moves that suck, just because they're cool, he's not gimped by this choice.
You get melees that can contribute with buffing, healing and magic damage.


I would suggest a favored soul for the caster. Not as OP as cleric, no metamagic shenanigans or domains to worry about, but still has access to a flexible spell list. Stricly speaking favored soul is probably T2, but you could ban/restrict planar bindings and miracle and they should be about as powerful as the melees, atleast in the hands of inexperienced players.

Seconding all of these suggestions. Have the Martial Adepts all focus on different disciplines (e.g. Crusader focuses on Devoted Spirit/White Raven, Warblade focuses on Iron Heart/Tiger Claw [maybe TWF?], and Swordsage focuses on Shadow Hand/Setting Sun/Desert Wind), and they won't feel all samey. Of course, all three will learn the Diamond Mind save-replacers, because those are awesome maneuvers to have.

[torrasque666]

Say you're the LG Crusader. The NG Favored Soul and the CN Swordsage are injured. Swordsage starts punching the Favored Soul, you punch the Swordsage, and heal the Favored Soul. Favored Soul starts punching the Swordsage, you punch the Favored Soul, and heal the Swordsage. The Favored Soul then uses their spells to heal you and the LG Warblade, who you can't heal via this because you're of the same alignment. Sketchy as heck, but if the DM doesn't allow this you could always have the Swordsage pick up Tomb-Tainted Soul, take a level in Shadow Sun Ninja, and take care of out-of-combat healing by using Touch of the Shadow Sun on themselves and then healing someone else in the party.

So just because they start punching each other, in a gambit to get you to heal them and you know this, they become enemies? Because that's also a part of the maneuver.

[Sam K]

Yeah, I used to think that too. Then I actually read the maneuvers that do the healing. They all say, and not in the fluff part mind you, that the enemy creature whose alignment is at least one component different from yours must pose a threat to your allies in some direct, immediate way.

So sadly, no punching your friends to heal them.

I IRON HEART SURGE AWAY YOUR REASONABLE LOGIC! Punching someone healthy is a right no crusader should have to live without!

On a semi-serious note, in an OOTS scenario, wouldn't punching Belkar to heal the party work? You might argue he wouldn't be a direct threat to the party, but he'd probably stab you for it. Old :belkar: would, anyway!

[Extra Anchovies]

So just because they start punching each other, in a gambit to get you to heal them and you know this, they become enemies? Because that's also a part of the maneuver.

As I said, really sketchy. I don't think it should work either, but I'm not sure if it does or not. The Shadow Sun Healing trick works better anyways ("I punch myself until my friends get better").

[OldTrees1]

@Crusader Healing

While you are in this stance, you or an ally within 30 feet heals 2 points of damage each time you make a successful melee attack. This healing represents the vigor, drive, and toughness you inspire in others. Your connection to the divine causes such inspiration to have a real, tangible effect on your allies’ health.

Each time you hit an opponent in melee, you can choose a different recipient within range to receive this healing.


As part of initiating this strike, you must make a successful melee attack against an enemy whose alignment has at least one component different from yours. This foe must pose a threat to you or your allies in some direct, immediate way. If your attack hits, you or an ally within 10 feet of you heals 1d6 points of damage + 1 point per initiator level (maximum +5).

Which of these do you think is the Crusader's out of combat healing?


Healing Nonlethal Damage
You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level.

When a spell or a magical power cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.

Out of combat Crusader healing is done by making unarmed strikes(provoking unarmed strike AoOs) and the Martial Spirit stance.

An untrained Unarmed Strike deals 2+Str nonlethal damage. The Martial Spirit heals 2 lethal and 2 non lethal damage per hit. So if the 10 Str Bard/Dread Necro/Beguiler is doing the punching they will all heal with no excess non lethal damage. Even if a stronger person contributes, you still get a free character level of non lethal healed per hour. If the average Str is +2, then you can heal 1hp/HD/PC/Hour.

[Extra Anchovies]

An untrained Unarmed Strike deals 2+Str nonlethal damage. The Martial Spirit heals 2 lethal and 2 non lethal damage per hit. So if the 10 Str Bard/Dread Necro/Beguiler is doing the punching they will all heal with no excess non lethal damage. Even if a stronger person contributes, you still get a free character level of non lethal healed per hour.

Also, anything that grants DR helps here. "Successful melee attack" just means it has to hit, not that it must deal damage. Melee touch attacks might even work.

[OldTrees1]

Also, anything that grants DR helps here. "Successful melee attack" just means it has to hit, not that it must deal damage. Melee touch attacks might even work.

Agreed about DR.

However I think Successful melee attack does imply needing to deal damage. Something about Sneak Attack/injury Poison(something like that) being on a "successful melee attack" and clarifying "successful" = "damaging". (AFB so I am not looking it up) In any case, we don't need to avoid damage in this case to make the healing work.

[Red Fel]

Agreed about DR.

However I think Successful melee attack does imply needing to deal damage. Something about Sneak Attack/injury Poison(something like that) being on a "successful melee attack" and clarifying "successful" = "damaging". (AFB so I am not looking it up) In any case, we don't need to avoid damage in this case to make the healing work.

What about that gauntlet (forget the name) that roots out hidden undead by healing the people it hits? As long as your party members aren't undead, that's basically a double-dose of healing, isn't it?

[aleucard]

What about that gauntlet (forget the name) that roots out hidden undead by healing the people it hits? As long as your party members aren't undead, that's basically a double-dose of healing, isn't it?

It's got per day use, so no. The number of useful items that aren't limited in that way or similar is surprisingly limited if you don't want to sink a cringe-worthy chunk of your WBL into it. Really, your best shot is probably either one of the more standard methods or custom items. Infinite-Use CLW or always-on Lesser Vigor does the job nicely, after all.

[Coidzor]

Adept, Barbarian/Ranger, Rogue/Ranger, Zhentarim Fighter/Hexblade 2/Marshal


It's already been suggested, but to add my two cents:

Dwarf Cleric, Dwarf Cleric, Dwarf Cleric, Dwarf Cleric.

Heh. :smallamused: I should re-read that comic someday.

[LTwerewolf]

Here's what I would do:

Paladin (very low floor, but a pretty decent ceiling, so you're not boned by picking it)
Factotum (same as above), possibly into chameleon
ranger/scout/swifthunter (very mobile twf or archery damage)
Archivist (your catchall spellcaster, nothing they can't do, and easy to control their power level based on what you allow them to have.