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Harkone
2007-03-15, 02:43 PM
This was originally posted in the "Spartan Warrior" thread, because that discussion included commentary on shields. Here it is in its own thread for all to partake of.

I have some comments regarding the weakness of the shield in D&D. Most single-class fighter-types, using the basic PHB rules, would be fools to use any kind of shield instead of using a two-handed weapon. I noticed in my campaigns that every fighter, barbarian, or paladin (or the equivalent) was using a greatsword (or something similar); no one used one-handed weapons at all, let alone the varied one-handed weapons available (even the rogues used rapiers, not shortswords or daggers, for example). I also noticed that as the game progresses, especially to the higher levels, bonuses to hit far outpaced AC. Everyone, PC, NPC, or monster, was hitting way too easily.

I rectified these situations by modifying shields as follows and creating the defense bonus.

Shields

Light Shields grant a +2 to AC; they are otherwise as listed in the PHB.

Heavy Shields grant a +3 to AC, and this bonus increases based on the wielder's Base Attack Bonus. For every 4 points of BAB, the AC bonus granted by the heavy shield goes up by 1. So, at BAB+4, the heavy shield grants a +4 AC; at BAB+8, the heavy shield grants a +5 AC, etc.; they are otherwise as listed in the PHB.

Bucklers grant a +1 armor bonus that stacks with armor's armor bonus; however, any enhancement to the buckler does not stack with the armor's enhancement bonus unless the buckler is used as a shield; they are otherwise as listed in the PHB.


Defense Bonus:

When a character is armed, he/she receives a defense bonus to his AC against all melee attacks. This bonus does not apply to ranged attacks, touch AC, or flat-footed AC. The exact bonus depends on what sort of weapon(s) the character is wielding:

Situation #1: (+1 AC/3 levels or HD -2, maximum +4 total): using a weapon two-handed or using two one-handed weapons
Situation #2: (+1 AC/3 levels or HD, maximum +6 total): using a one-handed weapon, using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon, using a double weapon, using natural weapons, or using a one-handed weapon and a shield
Situation #3: (+1 AC/3 levels or HD +2, maximum +8 total): using one light weapon, using two light weapons, using an unarmed strike, or using a light weapon and a shield

Examples:
Level 3 character w/ greatsword: +0
4-HD Ogre w/ Large greatclub: +0
Level 7 character w/ longsword and shield: +2
Level 10 character w/ battle axe and hand axe: +3
Level 13 character w/ 2 light maces: +6
30-HD Dragon (w/ natural weapons): +6
Level 17 character w/ dagger: +7
Level 20 character w/ shortsword: +8

I have found these changes (used over the last 4 years or so) have made the weapon-and-shield fighter much more appealing to use, both as a PC or as foes. For example, in my Forgotten Realms campaigns the basic soldiers of the church of Bane, Zhentarim, etc., wield heavy shields and shortswords. With Shield Specialization (PHB II), Phalanx Fighting (Lords of Darkness, and probably elsewhere too), and my rules, they are quite formidable, and quite different from the standard greatsword- or bastard sword-wielding fighters one commonly encounters.

Hope this is helpful.

Morgan_Scott82
2007-03-15, 02:54 PM
I'm not sure what to think of this system, I'll have to mull it over a bit. My first thought is that its cumbersome, because it relies on too many variables to determine the bonus. The current system is very simple. Also it appears that you've made shields give an unnamed bonus to AC rather than their current shield bonus, I am not a fan of this, unamed bonuses should be really hard to come by not something you can get by just picking up a shield.

In my own games, one thing that I've done to make the sword and board fighter more effective is to give characters using a shield a double return on combat expertise, in much the same way two handed weapons give a double return on power attack.

Hunter_Rose
2007-03-15, 03:39 PM
Adding a shield bash feat to give the fighter an extra attack sounds much more reasonable, especially if you make this a bonus feat. A shields can be enhanced damage wise by adding spikes. Plus when you give up a shield you give up one slot for a magic item. Shields are good places to put deflection bonuses and elemental protections. Enchant your armor to a +5 armor bonus, enchant your shield to a +5 deflection bonus, and wear an amulet of natural armor +5 will give you a total +15 to your armor class.

InaVegt
2007-03-15, 04:04 PM
I'm currently reworking the combat system of D&D quite a bit (hopefully imrpoving both 2 weapon fighting and sword and board (they basically use the same rules in it)) which I hope takes care of this problem.

Yakk
2007-03-15, 05:22 PM
Allow a player to designate all of their attacks with one weapon as parries.

Each parry is a contested hit. If the attacker hits the AC but is beat by the defender, the defender's damage roll acts as DR against the attack.

Players with shield proficiency can choose to actively block. This places a -2 penalty on all attacks in that round (just like TWF with a small offhand weapon), but gives you your full iteration of parries with your shields. You can't both TWF and use this tactic in the same round.

Shields grant a +shield_bonus (including enhancements) to the to-parry roll.
Shields grant a +shield_bonus (including enhancements)*3 to the parry damage soak roll.

So a +4 heavy shield (7 total shield AC) is +7 to parry and +21 soak.

THF cannot actively parry and attack. But the attacks do more damage, so tend to blow through the other guy's parries.

TWF can parry with one weapon and attack with the other.

S+B can attack with the sword and parry with the shield.

...

Finally, allow a single offhand action even on a simple attack/charge/etc.

Matthew
2007-03-16, 07:40 PM
I think that this is not a bad idea and it does make for a reasonable change from the x2 Combat Expertise thing. It is a little clunky, though, and I am not sure that increasing AC is really the answer, since AC is available from so many other sources. Of course, I'm a big fan of the 'Active Defence' solution and Opposed Roll mechanics, so I may be prejudiced...

Wolf_Boy
2007-03-19, 07:41 AM
Eh, still using a shield wrong, but whatever. Shield's are used to do the following things in combat.

1: Block - D&D covers this with AC, but I think shields are better than D&D presents them. Though blocking with a shield is ussually more of a well aimed bash. (See entry three)
2: Shield Bash for Damage: Very rare actually, shields are not really all that damaging. Is overly exaggerated in D&D which can actually encourage people to use a shield as a general weapon, which is just stupid.
3: Shield bash to create an opening and knock an opponent off balance. One of the main uses of a shield, is wholly lacking in representation in D&D. It is actually easier to hit your opponent because you have a shield.
4: Cover from Arrow Fire. Sorta represented by AC in D&D, but should increase AC ten fold when a full round action is taken for this purpose, is dependant upon facing though, which D&D does not represent very well.

Your shield fix does little to fix how poorly D&D represents a properly used shield, therefor it is not a fix.

Sendal
2007-03-19, 08:33 AM
It is possible to get a very high AC based on the current rules (a charismatic paladin using full plate and the divine shield feat to name but one way). adding more free bonuses will just make this type of build even better.

I also think that a combat is more dramatic if most of the attacks hit than when most of the attacks miss.

Haedrian
2007-03-19, 08:40 AM
The only use I've ever found for shield bash is if you have a sword and shield (just) and you're attacked by skeletons [because of their damage reduction]

other then that, shields are pretty much useless.

A parry attack (similar to the sunder) would be a way of making them more popular, but it'd totally destroy people wearing heavy armour. (Since its a touch attack)