Making a Vampire Spawn Template because the RAW is ridiculous

[Jowgen]

Following a thread about Spawn Killing their creators and a Simple Raw thread question, I am now on a mission to homebrew a vampire spawn template.

"Why" you ask?

Because, unless you want to spend 8 character levels on the Libris Mortis monster class, getting turned into a Spawn does away with -everything- about your race, including your size and all.

According to Libris Mortis p. 32, Vampire Spawn have a +4 LA. The regular Vampire template should give a perfect mold to be downgraded to a +4 LA Spawn template. Sadly, I have no experience in making templates, so here I am, hoping people find this interesting enough to pitch in and help making this template.

Never more shall 2.5 foot deep gnomes get energy drained and wake up as a medium undead that are somehow supposed to "appear much as they did in life".

[Pan151]

Ehmm... I don't know where exactly you got the idea that becoming a vampire spawn changes your size. Because it doesn't.

[Curbstomp]

And the template exists...

[Necroticplague]

Ehmm... I don't know where exactly you got the idea that becoming a vampire spawn changes your size. Because it doesn't.

You also tain your class levels (minus the last one).

Because Vampire Spawn is a specific creature with specific traits, not a template (which is what he's trying to fix). Wights have similar issues, to my knowledge.

[Ruut]

From Skip Williams:

http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/vampirespawn.shtml

From SRD:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Vampire_Spawn

Libris Mortis Has A Monster Class For It. It Isn't OGL, Otherwise I Would Copy And Paste The Whole Thing For You. The Monster Class Does Not Change Size And Would Allow You To Level Up Along With Everyone Else Without Overpowering Them/Gimping Yourself Too Badly.

If You Really Just Gotta Be A Vampire, Forget Vampire Spawn. Take The 1st level of The Vampire Template Class: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a. THEN Finish The Template Class By Taking Levels of Legacy Champion From The Weapons of Legacy Book.

[Pan151]

Because Vampire Spawn is a specific creature with specific traits, not a template (which is what he's trying to fix). Wights have similar issues, to my knowledge.

As the above poster pointed out, there exists a monster class for vampire spawn that works as a savage progression (and can be applied as a template if need be) that retains some of the original creature's features. The vampire spawn from the SRD is simply the default no class levels, medium humanoid vampire spawn.

Same thing applies to wights, btw.

[Feint's End]

Also this thread technically belongs into the homebrew part of the forum even though the answers were directed to the part that belongs in this forum.

[Psyren]

Never more shall 2.5 foot deep gnomes get energy drained and wake up as a medium undead that are somehow supposed to "appear much as they did in life".

How is that different than a wight turning a gnome into another (medium) wight though, or a shadow turning a gnome into a medium-size shadow? And Dread Wraiths are large but create medium spawn out of everything. It's just a quirk of those spawn-creating creatures that they boilerplate their victims.

[Jowgen]

Ehmm... I don't know where exactly you got the idea that becoming a vampire spawn changes your size. Because it doesn't.

I was specifically refering to becoming a spawn without using the Libris Mortis monster class.


How is that different than a wight turning a gnome into another (medium) wight though, or a shadow turning a gnome into a medium-size shadow? It's just a quirk of those spawn-creating creatures that they boilerplate their victims.

Shadows, as creatures, aren't meant to have anything incommon with their living form, so I'm a-okay with that. Wights are meant to have "a weird and twisted reflection of the form it had in life", which does feel like there should have been a template, but I can forgive that based on the 'weird and twisted' part.

With Vampire spawn though, not only are they described as "Vampire spawn appear much as they did in life, although their features are often hardened, with a predatory look.", but there even is a template for the proper Vampire that does exactly what should by all rights be possible for Spawn. Honestly, it just really messes with my OCD :smallamused:


Also this thread technically belongs into the homebrew part of the forum even though the answers were directed to the part that belongs in this forum.

Sorry about that, I figured since I was only trying to adapt the regular vampire template to spawn level it would fit here :smallfrown:


If You Really Just Gotta Be A Vampire, Forget Vampire Spawn. Take The 1st level of The Vampire Template Class: http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/sp/20030824a. THEN Finish The Template Class By Taking Levels of Legacy Champion From The Weapons of Legacy Book.

Interesting. :smallsmile: I completely forgot about the Template Class, and if I were going for an attempt at optimizing, I would totally go the legacy champion route. Might do at some point :smallsmile:


As the above poster pointed out, there exists a monster class for vampire spawn that works as a savage progression (and can be applied as a template if need be) that retains some of the original creature's features. The vampire spawn from the SRD is simply the default no class levels, medium humanoid vampire spawn.

What buggs me about the monster class is mainly that you're stuck in it for 2/5th of your character (unless you legacy champion squirm your way out, if the DM allows), meaning that being a vampire almost completely defines your whole character for you, in addition to also sucking pretty bad (no pun intended). Also, you get less (on the whole) than you would by taking the proper vampire template, the way they decided on the number of monster class levels and progression just really bugs me to no end.

You mentioned the monster class "can be applied as a template if need be". How would you go about doing that? I've considered just taking each of the monster level benefits and lumping them together into the template, but it doesn't quite feel like a good approach to me :smalleek:

[Psyren]

Shadows, as creatures, aren't meant to have anything incommon with their living form, so I'm a-okay with that. Wights are meant to have "a weird and twisted reflection of the form it had in life", which does feel like there should have been a template, but I can forgive that based on the 'weird and twisted' part.

With Vampire spawn though, not only are they described as "Vampire spawn appear much as they did in life, although their features are often hardened, with a predatory look.", but there even is a template for the proper Vampire that does exactly what should by all rights be possible for Spawn. Honestly, it just really messes with my OCD :smallamused:

Well in PF, Vampire Spawn are just Wights+ if that helps.

Personally I think all corporeal spawn could be templates too but it's not a big deal either way.

[Pan151]

You mentioned the monster class "can be applied as a template if need be". How would you go about doing that? I've considered just taking each of the monster level benefits and lumping them together into the template, but it doesn't quite feel like a good approach to me :smalleek:

Well, if you are going to use it as a template, that is exactly what you're going to do. You basicaly do a reverse savage progression - instead of stretching a template over a number of levels equal to the ecl adjustment, you just apply everything at once.

Not nessarily that it is the best way to go at it, of course. The monster class smooths out the ecl adjustment (suddenly jumping 8 effective levels - and staying there forever because your ecl is too high to gain any significant experience for the next half a dozen levels of the campaign - is not exactly ideal, for campaign balance and player enjoyment alike) and simulates progressively discovering the capabilities of your new body (which makes sense in undead progressions - less so in other progressions, where you often come across such hilarious events as permanently changing size due to all the battle experience from fighting a bunch of orcs...)

An alternative to that could also be to bunch it all as a single template, but only apply the base stat modifications and requiring that the player has to progressively discover the less obvious abilities of his new body, not through leveling but through roleplay.


As to it all being massively underwhelming for +8 ecl... yeah, it is. WotC balancing aside, vampirism is kinda supposed to be a curse more than it is a blessing after all, eat least when you're not the master vampire...

[Jowgen]

An alternative to that could also be to bunch it all as a single template, but only apply the base stat modifications and requiring that the player has to progressively discover the less obvious abilities of his new body, not through leveling but through roleplay.

Hmmm, I do like the idea of applying the template once, but having its full benefits applied over time. Role playing should definently play a part, especially if there is a possibility of variant vampire abilities (e.g. psychic vampire). Maybe tie it to the ammount of people that have been drained? Other than that, perphas something in the vein of how the shadow template provides an additional benefit every 4 HD.

Since it's a +4, a good swag load of the template/monster class benefits ought to come in at the start. Then, one would need to decide on a sort of -cut-off point, from which on the remaining benefits come in based on further progression and hit dice, in a way that keeps the character as balanced as possible.

[squiggit]

How is that different than a wight turning a gnome into another (medium) wight though
I could have sworn there was a wight template

[Extra Anchovies]

I could have sworn there was a wight template

There is. (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/wight.shtml) It's Dragon Magazine, though.

[Jowgen]

There is. (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/wight.shtml) It's Dragon Magazine, though.

That is actually quite awesome for the purposes of this thread. That template is LA +4, and wight's are also listed as having a +4 LA in the same table as Vampire Spawn are listed to be +4. It's dragon mag, but at least it gives a framework of how a Vampire Spawn template ought to compare to the Vampire Spawn in the MM. :smallsmile:

Are there any significant differences between the Wight Template and the Wight MM entry that you'd happen to know? *goes to sift through in detail*

[Feint's End]

Sorry about that, I figured since I was only trying to adapt the regular vampire template to spawn level it would fit here :smallfrown:

No worries. Like I said technically ... since the original post requested help for help with home brew. What you got instead though (and what is probably close enough to what you imagine) is to make it work in the existing rules.

So posting it here was a good call after all!

Sorry for having now constructive input aside from that. My knowledge of vampire templates is somewhat limited to the very basics (never wanted to play one and when running a NPC I can live with the monstrous la of the regular template).

[Yogibear41]

+3 Natural Armor
+2 Turn Resistance
DR5/Silver
Fast Healing 2
Natural Slam 1d6+str+1 level energy drain
Gaseous Form
Resistance 10 cold and elecricity
Spider Climb
+6 str, +4 Dex +2 Int +2 Wis +4 Cha

Bonus Feats: Altertness, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexs

+4 LA

Basically drop the RHD, keep ability modifiers and everything else.


Or just be a half vampire, then become a necropolitan.

[Jowgen]

+3 Natural Armor
+2 Turn Resistance
DR5/Silver
Fast Healing 2
Natural Slam 1d6+str+1 level energy drain
Gaseous Form
Resistance 10 cold and elecricity
Spider Climb
+6 str, +4 Dex +2 Int +2 Wis +4 Cha

Bonus Feats: Altertness, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexs

Thank you for writing the benefits up. :smallsmile: I think the +4 Skill bonuses to Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot need to be added. Also, I think "type changes to undead (augmented humanoid or monstrous humanoid)" from the regular vampire template ought to be included for completeness, and obivously vampire weaknesses.

One thing I'm not 100% sure about is wether the "Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s" clause ought to be included. Opinions anyone?

[Psyren]

One thing I'm not 100% sure about is wether the "Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s" clause ought to be included. Opinions anyone?

Why wouldn't you? They become undead, so they should have d12s. (or d8+Cha, in PF.)

[Jowgen]

Why wouldn't you? They become undead, so they should have d12s. (or d8+Cha, in PF.)

It's only mentioned in the regular vampire template, with the Monster Class and MM entry making no mention of it. Obviously undead need all the HP they can get, but I worry that making every HD ever had or acquired a D12 for a Spawn (who are downgraded Vampires) might be an unwarranted/unbalanced bonus to them.

[Boci]

Why wouldn't you? They become undead, so they should have d12s. (or d8+Cha, in PF.)

To extend the affect to class levels. Its never actually stated as a hard and fast rule that undead with class levels substitute the value for d12, at least not in 3.5

[Psyren]

Oh, I guess I was thinking of skeletons/zombies where the non-racial HD are simply lost.

To maintain functionality with the previous version I would give them a wight's HD and remove all class levels.

[Boci]

Just checked, it doesn't appear to be a rule in pathfinder either, undead with class levels use that instead of their racial hit die value, but then that's probably a good thing since their hit die is handled differently than 3.5.

[Jowgen]

So yeah, in the absence of an actual rule, I'm kinda left hanging with the fact that regular vampires get the d12 subsitution with their template and little indication whether Vampire Spawn ought to get it too in their template...

Thinking about it now, maybe the Wight template from Dragon 300 has something useful for this. As mentioned above, Wights are given the same Monster Class and stated LA treatment in Libris Mortis as Vampire spawn, so their Dragon mag template might be an indicator.

*goes checks Dragon 300 p. 76*

Okay, the Wight template entry reads "Hit Dice: Change to d12". I... guess this supports Vampire Spawn getting d12 substitution? The Wight's doesn't read "all current and future", but it should still overwrite class level HD, right? Based on that, if the Wight template (rather than monster class) version gets d12 substitution, then a Vampire Spawn Template version of the monster class ought to get it as well, especially considering regular vampires get it.

Does this seem right?

[Boci]

So yeah, in the absence of an actual rule, I'm kinda left hanging with the fact that regular vampires get the d12 subsitution with their template and little indication whether Vampire Spawn ought to get it too in their template...

Thinking about it now, maybe the Wight template from Dragon 300 has something useful for this. As mentioned above, Wights are given the same Monster Class and stated LA treatment in Libris Mortis as Vampire spawn, so their Dragon mag template might be an indicator.

*goes checks Dragon 300 p. 76*

Okay, the Wight template entry reads "Hit Dice: Change to d12". I... guess this supports Vampire Spawn getting d12 substitution? The Wight's doesn't read "all current and future", but it should still overwrite class level HD, right? Based on that, if the Wight template (rather than monster class) version gets d12 substitution, then a Vampire Spawn Template version of the monster class ought to get it as well, especially considering regular vampires get it.

Does this seem right?

Yeah. It's not going to be unbalanced or anything. Most martial classes will get +0-2 hut points per level from this. Even wizards and sorcerers only get +4, and they would be shackled to the Spawn's racial hitdie, even if it is non-associate levels. Nothing bad will happen from giving them s12 for all current and future hitdie.

[Feint's End]

Yeah. It's not going to be unbalanced or anything. Most martial classes will get +0-2 hut points per level from this. Even wizards and sorcerers only get +4, and they would be shackled to the Spawn's racial hitdie, even if it is non-associate levels. Nothing bad will happen from giving them s12 for all current and future hitdie.

Pretty much this. Unless you find a way of boosting the HP you get as an undead 1d12 is actually less than most classes get. Think about it this way ... a wizard gets an average of 2.5 while an undead of any kind gets 6.5 average. That's 4 difference.

At level 20 a wizard is easily rocking a con of 24 (which sums up to +7) making the average health 9.5 .... 3 more on average than an undead.

Now this is only the wizard of course .... Fightery types will surpass this even farther (my guess is 13.5+ average for them).

As a matter of fact to be a viable choice (lifewise) for martial classes you need some boni such as consecrate, evil altar etc. (there was a thread summing up all the options somewhere right?). The go up to something like 1d12+8 which is pretty powerful (Basically like a barbarian with 26 con).

If somebody could find the link you could take a look and just apply as much hp as you think fits the character (or the dm lets you get away with as a PC).

[Blackhawk748]

It's only mentioned in the regular vampire template, with the Monster Class and MM entry making no mention of it. Obviously undead need all the HP they can get, but I worry that making every HD ever had or acquired a D12 for a Spawn (who are downgraded Vampires) might be an unwarranted/unbalanced bonus to them.

You really dont need to worry about this, as others have stated the loss of you Con means that you NEED to have d12s or you are gonna be an actual corpse, which is why playing a Martial Vampire friggin sucks unless your DM is nice and turns Unholy Toughness into a feat for you.

[Jowgen]

I went to compile the template together and ran into a bit off an... oddity. :smallconfused:

In the Vampire Spawn monster class' table (at least in my copy), under the Special collum in the entries for levels 1 and 6, it says "Feat". Under the bonus feat entry in the text, it just lists the 3 pre-chosen feats (alterness at 2, lighting reflexes at 5, improved initiative at 8). I know it's "text over table", but that's for conflicts AFAIK, and the text makes no mention of it what soever in my copy.

Do vampire spawn get 2 free-chooseable bonus feats or not or what? :smallconfused:

[Calimmacil]

No, vampire spawn only get Alertness, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes as bonus feats, as opposed to Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes for full vampires.

While going through the differences, I found an oddity on the Gaseous Form (Su) ability: vampires can assume gaseous form as if they had caster level 5th, but vampire spawn use it as if they had caster level 6th. In all other respects, vampires are equivalent or superior to vampire spawn.

Here is a table I compiled of the differences (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oKF0O5pBAYk4w9gUcPWkAeEl5bXj5jgtxmVqxEDHR5c/edit?usp=sharing).

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: Thread necromancy. Oh the irony.