How can an undead protect against healing spells? [Archive]

Rubik

2014-10-08, 01:35 AM

Taking the Human Heritage feat protects it from positive energy, since it counts as humanoid, rather than undead. And since healing spells specifically specify that they harm undead, the critter in question is still healed by healing spells. Ironically, they retain their ability to be healed by negative energy, as well, since Human Heritage says the creature keeps the traits of its original type (which includes being healed by negative energy).

squiggit

2014-10-08, 01:39 AM

Heal/Cure X are subject to spell resistance, so there's that.

LM has a feat called "Positive Energy Resistance" that gives you resist 10 against damage from healing effects

Human Heritage is still the best option though, but if you can't take it for some reason...

Rubik

2014-10-08, 01:43 AM

Inevitability

2014-10-08, 02:05 AM

Finding a way to merge with an aleax of yourself (Ice Assassin + Fusion + Astral Seed) will make you immune to...everything. Well, everything but your own attacks. But I doubt your DM would do that to you.

Yeah, that's why most people put another Singular Enemy on top of that, because cruel DM's still have a way to kill you otherwise (Teleport Through Time).

And on-topic, maybe Spark of Life would help? It'd even turn a healing spell into a blessing for it, and it also makes Undead Killer #1 (disintegrate) far less useful.

Svata

2014-10-08, 03:58 AM

Elkad

2014-10-08, 06:41 AM

Protection from Positive Energy, (SpC, 163), protects from 10 damage from any damaging positive energy effect. Not much, but after saves and SR, it should deal with mostof anything but Heal. Lasts 10 mins/lv.

Which should be labeled "Resist Positive Energy". "Protection from" should be a set amount (12pts/cl), same as the other protection from energy spells.

But hey, why would the rules be consistent :P

nolongerchaos

2014-10-08, 10:04 AM

Vogonjeltz

2014-10-09, 05:32 PM

My party is probably going to be facing a high-level undead soon, and I want to be aware of the ways an undead can ward itself against spells like heal (besides making the saving throw).

Depends on the class(es) it has:
Protection from Positive Energy (clr 3)
Positive Energy Protection (Clr 3) <---3.0 content, not apparently updated to 3.5 (its effects are actually completely different than Protection from Positive Energy) so it should be valid still.
Life Ward (Clr 4)
Spark of Life (Clr 7, Drd 8)<---LM; (Clr 3, Drd 4)<---SpC. That changes how positive/negative energy interact with it, though it's more of a debuff.

Feat: Positive Energy Resistance

Taking the Human Heritage feat protects it from positive energy, since it counts as humanoid, rather than undead. And since healing spells specifically specify that they harm undead, the critter in question is still healed by healing spells. Ironically, they retain their ability to be healed by negative energy, as well, since Human Heritage says the creature keeps the traits of its original type (which includes being healed by negative energy).

Are Undead considered a "Half-human race or human-descended race," now? I don't know what the restrictions are on racial feats (anyone have a book handy?), but this would seem a plausible candidate for something the authors would have thought to disallow. /shrug. If the DM wanted to, they could just give the Monster Positive Energy resistance and call it a day, there's no need for shenanigans.

Rubik

2014-10-09, 05:41 PM

Are Undead considered a "Half-human race or human-descended race," now? I don't know what the restrictions are on racial feats (anyone have a book handy?), but this would seem a plausible candidate for something the authors would have thought to disallow. /shrug. If the DM wanted to, they could just give the Monster Positive Energy resistance and call it a day, there's no need for shenanigans.If they were descended from humans prior to death, yes.

It's like asking if a baked potato is still a potato.

Jeff the Green

2014-10-09, 06:25 PM

Are Undead considered a "Half-human race or human-descended race," now?

Xykon half human. Other half, also human.

Lord Vukodlak

2014-10-09, 06:52 PM

Libris Mortis has "Life Ward" which protects from positive energy the way Death Ward protects from negative energy.

Vogonjeltz

2014-10-09, 08:37 PM

If they were descended from humans prior to death, yes.

It's like asking if a baked potato is still a potato.

*Gasp!* I didn't know baked potatoes were unnatural abominations unto the light powered by negative energy!

Although...that does explain the need for delicious sour cream.

Lord Vukodlak

2014-10-09, 09:12 PM

If they were descended from humans prior to death, yes.

It's like asking if a baked potato is still a potato.

Being healed by positive energy isn't a humanoid trait, Its in fact not listed among the traits of any creature type. The cure spells themselves specify they heal living creatures. So it doesn't matter if an undead counts as humanoid with the humanoid subtype for spell effects. Because the restorative magic doesn't specify creature type it specifies "living"

Rubik

2014-10-09, 09:35 PM

Being healed by positive energy isn't a humanoid trait, Its in fact not listed among the traits of any creature type. The cure spells themselves specify they heal living creatures. So it doesn't matter if an undead counts as humanoid with the humanoid subtype for spell effects. Because the restorative magic doesn't specify creature type it specifies "living"The undead trait says they're healed by negative energy. Healing spells specify that they harm undead. So at worst, Cure spells do nothing to nonliving humanoids.

Rubik

2014-10-09, 09:39 PM

*Gasp!* I didn't know baked potatoes were unnatural abominations unto the light powered by negative energy!Abominations aren't always undead. Some are outsiders or elementals. And light has nothing to do with many undead -- only ones that specify that light hurts them.

Although...that does explain the need for delicious sour cream.Praise be unto the spud topper, hallowed be thy name.

Psyren

2014-10-09, 10:21 PM

Given that the only one even worth mentioning is Heal, just have him get Spell Immunity or a Spellblade just for that spell.

The rest - in addition to being just weak in general - are also subject to all the drawbacks/defenses mentioned previously.

Lord Vukodlak

2014-10-09, 10:37 PM

The undead trait says they're healed by negative energy. Healing spells specify that they harm undead. So at worst, Cure spells do nothing to nonliving humanoids.

Where in the feat does it say your type can't be changed? the feat changes you type but it never says that the change is immutable. Polymorph would still change your type, like wise any template gained AFTER acquiring the feat would also change your type. So a Tiefling with the human heritage feat would be changed to a humanoid with the human subtype. If he later became a Necropolitan his type would change to undead, nothing in the feat prevents that from happening.

So at worst or RAW the feat grants you one less skill point then opened minded but otherwise does nothing.

Rubik

2014-10-10, 05:05 AM

Where in the feat does it say your type can't be changed? the feat changes you type but it never says that the change is immutable. Polymorph would still change your type, like wise any template gained AFTER acquiring the feat would also change your type. So a Tiefling with the human heritage feat would be changed to a humanoid with the human subtype. If he later became a Necropolitan his type would change to undead, nothing in the feat prevents that from happening.

So at worst or RAW the feat grants you one less skill point then opened minded but otherwise does nothing.If you're a necropolitan with the Human Heritage feat, do you still have the Human Heritage feat? If so, your type is Humanoid (Human), because you still have the benefits of the feat you've got, as you still have the feat and still qualify for it.

Baldin

2014-10-10, 08:34 AM

As deathward protects you from negative energy, spell compendium has a spell called lifeward which protects against positive energy.

Shalist

2014-10-10, 10:41 AM

All the real nice ideas have been mentioned, so...:

Deathward can be tied to hallow, so it seems exceedingly reasonable to house rule that lifeward can be tied to unhallow. Note that half-fiend minions can eventually use 'unhallow' as an SLA.

Ebon ray of doom (sorc/wiz 4, Lost Empires of Faerun) forces a (15 + your CL) CL check for 'any sort of healing magic' to work on that person, but also suppresses fast heal.

Otiluke's suppressing field shuts down entire schools of magic in an area (i.e. conjuration) pending a (11 + your CL) CL check.

Venger

2014-10-10, 10:48 AM

The spell Life Ward from SpC protects against all positive energy, which means Cures, Heals, and Turning. It is Cleric only though, and sadly only min/lvl as opposed to it's counterpart Death Ward, with it's duration of hour/lvl. Stupid life-ists...

death ward is also only 1 min/lvl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm)

beware any effects the enemy may use to change type, such as undead wild shape. that'll also work alongside everything else people have mentioned.

Vogonjeltz

2014-10-10, 04:57 PM

Abominations aren't always undead. Some are outsiders or elementals. And light has nothing to do with many undead -- only ones that specify that light hurts them.

Praise be unto the spud topper, hallowed be thy name.

I was going to say *whoosh*, but then the second line happened.

Still there are some questions here. (see below)

This feat may only be taken at 1st level.

Ok, so there aren't any 1st level undead. That is to say, nobody (to my knowledge) starts undead and THEN becomes a 1st level character. It's always the other way around. Are there any races that a half-human or descended from humans that are undead to start with? That's the only means of qualifying that I can think of.

Why does this matter? As far as I am aware, becoming Undead always changes the creatures type to Undead, rendering it no longer Humanoid.

As far as I'm aware creatures are only allowed 1 type, so a level 20 Awakened Skeleton Elan Monk would be what...Abomination? Humanoid? Undead? Outsider?

Venger

2014-10-10, 05:13 PM

Why does this matter? As far as I am aware, becoming Undead always changes the creatures type to Undead, rendering it no longer Humanoid.

a number of methods to become undead, such as necropolitan, allow you to keep the (augmented humanoid) type, making you eligible if you started necropolitan and somehow lost a bunch of xp to start at 1.

or you could just take it at lvl 1, like people have been discussing.

Rubik

2014-10-10, 06:20 PM

I was going to say *whoosh*, but then the second line happened.

Still there are some questions here. (see below)

Ok, so there aren't any 1st level undead. That is to say, nobody (to my knowledge) starts undead and THEN becomes a 1st level character. It's always the other way around. Are there any races that a half-human or descended from humans that are undead to start with? That's the only means of qualifying that I can think of.

Why does this matter? As far as I am aware, becoming Undead always changes the creatures type to Undead, rendering it no longer Humanoid.

As far as I'm aware creatures are only allowed 1 type, so a level 20 Awakened Skeleton Elan Monk would be what...Abomination? Humanoid? Undead? Outsider?Well, first of all, monks don't change type at level 20. They're only considered outsiders for various purposes, meaning you don't even actually get the benefits of being an outsider.

And it's perfectly possible for an undead to change type. A necropolitan egoist with Metamorphosis will (most likely) change his type several times per gaming session, for instance.

And what about a necropolitan dragon disciple? Green star adept? Someone who uses a Wish to change his race?

Lord Vukodlak

2014-10-10, 06:56 PM

Well, first of all, monks don't change type at level 20. They're only considered outsiders for various purposes, meaning you don't even actually get the benefits of being an outsider.

And it's perfectly possible for an undead to change type. A necropolitan egoist with Metamorphosis will (most likely) change his type several times per gaming session, for instance.

And what about a necropolitan dragon disciple? Green star adept? Someone who uses a Wish to change his race?

All of which would override type in the order they were received. You can't acquire human heritage AFTER becoming undead so the undead type would override the humanoid type.

Rubik

2014-10-10, 07:19 PM

All of which would override type in the order they were received. You can't acquire human heritage AFTER becoming undead so the undead type would override the humanoid type.Except feat retraining or Psychic Reformation or the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle.

So, yes. Yes, you can.

Lord Vukodlak

2014-10-10, 09:04 PM

Except feat retraining or Psychic Reformation or the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle.

So, yes. Yes, you can.

To put a RAW nail in this "you retain any traits common to all creatures of your original type "
Undead wasn't your original type so If your 1st level necropolition used retraining to take the feat you'd lose all your undead traits because they didn't come from your original type.

Rubik

2014-10-10, 09:07 PM

To put a RAW nail in this "you retain any traits common to all creatures of your original type "
Undead wasn't your original type so If your 1st level necropolition used retraining to take the feat you'd lose all your undead traits because they didn't come from your original type.It was originally undead when you DCFS'd the feat in.

Lord Vukodlak

2014-10-10, 09:16 PM

It was originally undead when you DCFS'd the feat in.

Irrelevant, it says original type not previous type or your type when you take this feat. It says ORIGINAL so by RAW it doesn't work.

Rubik

2014-10-10, 09:23 PM

Irrelevant, it says original type not previous type or your type when you take this feat. It says ORIGINAL so by RAW it doesn't work.And what about creatures who were "born" undead? At least one of their parents had human DNA, but the creature never started out as anything but an undead creature? Whether a half-wight or just a creature made post-level 3 with the necropolitan template fluffed as having been born that way?

Lord Vukodlak

2014-10-10, 09:56 PM

And what about creatures who were "born" undead? At least one of their parents had human DNA, but the creature never started out as anything but an undead creature? Whether a half-wight or just a creature made post-level 3 with the necropolitan template fluffed as having been born that way?

Half-undead creatures like half-wights don't have the undead type to begin with, they half-half undead traits.
They are still harmed by inflict spells.(but in some cases have functionally have evasion against such things) and are healed by positive energy.
And if your going to start house ruling or fluffing for the Necropolitan then the DM is free to say the fluff indicates being damaged by positive energy is a trait of undeath.(which is certainly implied). But if your going to create a "born" undead creature so you can take human heritage and thus be immune to positive energy.... just make the Necropolitan deathless instead of undead and later get Death Ward. Its a little less likely to make a DM roll his eyes and pretend you never suggested it.