PDA

View Full Version : Optimizing a Group of Low Level Wizards (i.e. A Guild)



Dalek
2014-10-08, 11:03 AM
I could use a little assistance from the Playground, long time lurker, first time poster :smallbiggrin:

Here’s the background:
1.) 4 Player’s, 1 DM. Playing on a large grid map (4 feet by 8 feet).
2.) Each player is in charge of one group/guild. We will be using the lower level guild members as our party - each Player will run their own party for each adventure.
3.) Each group/guild is led by a level 15 character.
This character will likely never see actual play but only be background.
4.) Each player is trying to help retake a kingdom and try to further guild/group goals (goals are not revealed yet).
5.) Enemies seem to be strongly leaning towards giants (giants are the main antagonist) and the like (I’m thinking ogres, orcs and other monstrous humanoids).
6.) I am playing the wizard guild. No sorcerers and nothing that is not a wizard as the base chassis.
7.) I am only using wizards for my PCs – nothing that isn’t at base a wizard. Dread Necro, Warmage etc I think could be used but for the most part I want to stick with wizards/specialists.
8.) The Player’s aren’t against each other (we are all trying to restore the kingdom) but some of the guild/group goals may conflict.
9.) Not looking for any assist with the level 15, but more for some help making optimized wizards level 1 through 6 who could work very well in this sort of campaign.
10.) This is my first time playing a wizard in this group – we have played together before and I was a Charisma focused Fighter (yep, straight fighter with high charisma…Int was his second highest stat, it was a pure RP choice and a ton of fun to play) who ended up being the most effective of all characters (including a Wizard, Cleric and Rogue, they really wanted the “Classic D&D Party” for that campaign) so now I’m looking to showcase what a wizard/group of wizards could really be capable of. The DM is good but definitely not an optimizer and I’m pretty sure he doesn’t know what I’m about to bring down on this world. He is the type of guy/DM who appreciates a really good tactic though so I'm not worried about "breaking" his campaign.

A few things I have gotten clarified with the DM:
1.) We will be making lower level characters (1-6 seems to be the level) who will be sent on a mission. Usually from 1-6 characters. For instance I’m told the first mission will likely involve 2 level 6 characters, 1 level 3 and 2 level 1. Missions will not have downtime to restock on spells.
2.) There are a limited number of lower level characters we can use – so if we only have 2 level 6 guys once we make our level 6 guys then they are set forever, I don't know what these limits are yet. Likely not increasing level, no xp awards.
3.) Leadership is banned.
4.) The following classes are absolutely prohibited for any of my characters: Sorcerer, Druid, Monk and Barbarian.
5.) Using my level 15 Arcane Reach Archmage to Chain buff the living sh*t out of my low level guys has been nixed. Basically using my level 15 character to supercharge the others sounds out of bounds.
As a side effect of this I am about 99% sure any attempts to abuse Planar Binding spells will probably not work…but I am going to try hehe.
6.) We will use WBL for every character, however each group/guild gets a discount on certain types of magic items. The Wizard Guild discounted items are (95% sure, GM is still thinking a bit) wands and scrolls, discount is sounding like 50% of base cost.
- I will be asking if that discount also applied to created magic items…if so I may use my level 15 as a pure crafter.
7.) I asked about which books to use, ACF, spells, items etc and the GM response is “This is an ancient Wizard Guild. Use it all.” :smallcool:
8.) We will know the scenario in advance each time – we will have a mission and then choose or make the characters we will send.
9.) Precocious apprentice can be used for early entry tricks (such as for Master Specialist) so I'm pretty sure I can get other early entry tricks approved by the DM.

DM Description of What the Campaign Is:
"Each chapter will be divided into several encounters and each encounter will be played on a full 4’ x 8’ battle board with different objectives for each player and each encounter. I’m hoping I can wrap up each encounter in 1 or 2 sessions so there won’t be much to carry over on a continual basis. In addition each session you will also be given a sheet with series of dilemmas, setbacks and opportunities that your organization faces that month. You can manage these items with a few sentences describing what you wish done and what resources you are committing. These will help, in addition to your performance on the battle board, shape the future of your group in the Liberation of Geoff."

The other Players have chosen a Bard group, a Barbarian group and it is sounding like a Cleric group (maybe Paladins) and I know these players well – the optimization of them is low to medium at best. I want to get optimized to the point of almost ridiculousness. Not TO (no Pun-Pun) but very High Optimization. I could do this on my own but I’m really not having the time to make a ton of characters right now so I’m hoping to get a few optimized level 1-6 builds for different wizard builds. I want to optimize wizards and use only wizards.

First mission from what I am hearing and putting together from the DM is basically a Giant in a village (Fog Giant or somesuch made up thing) that defends that village…but we are there to kill/remove/whatever the giant. Limited visibility due to Fog effects from the giant. After giant is gone we will have to defend against the orcs/goblins who will attack when the defending giant is gone. Other missions will likely be fairly similar – an obstacle to overcome plus combat utility.
- Diplomacy is just as valid as combat for “removing” the giant. I do not want to go this route, I would like to kill and animate the corpse for the follow up defense.

I’m good at wizards but I could use some ideas for lower level characters, maximizing their effectiveness as a Wizard Guild – I will not have fighters/martial classes or rogues or clerics or anyone else in my crew. I want to avoid using any class that doesn’t advance wizard spellcasting.

As an ancient Wizard Guild I will basically have access to all written spells in all books – no need for each low level guy to take Collegiate Wizard to trade spells for instance. Suggestions for solid spells not really necessary, I’ve got a good handle on the spells and can easily read up on the excellent spell choice guides that are out there, but it’s the feats and any cool tricks that would pass a sane DM that I’m looking for, and optimizing the characters for their level and not for future levels (these guys will never level up). If you have a preferred spell list then by all means include it.

I’m hoping for a good build for each school of magic – a necromancer, diviner etc etc etc. I need guys who can deal the damage at low levels as well. Level 1 Diviner specialists who focus on True Strike? Level 6 Necromancers using scrolls of Animate Dead?

Effective level 1 builds, level 2 etc all the way up to level 6. Which specialists should I keep at a lower level and which ones should be higher?

Familiar ideas and shenanigans?

Must have magic items? I am going to buy 1 candle of invocation and use it at the end of the campaign. Dust of Sneezing and Choking as well perhaps…
Wands of great utility spells that I should send with each group (Tongues is one I’m thinking of wanding up for sure)?

Best Races?

Feat and skill choices?

Any other cool tricks/abilities/combos I should try?

Thanks to all for any assistance you can provide!

Palanan
2014-10-08, 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by Dalek
I want to get optimized to the point of almost ridiculousness.

These are dangerous words here in the Playground.

:smallamused:


Originally Posted by Dalek
The other Players have chosen a Bard group, a Barbarian group and it is sounding like a Cleric group (maybe Paladins) and I know these players well – the optimization of them is low to medium at best.


Originally Posted by Dalek
The Player’s aren’t against each other (we are all trying to restore the kingdom) but some of the guild/group goals may conflict.

Given the substantial disparity in power here--bards and barbarians, clerics and wizards--do you want to optimize your wizards to be effective leaders of the reconquest, or to ruthlessly suppress the other guilds? Is there some sort of gentlemen's agreement between the fifteenth-level characters to avoid civil war?

If you're soliciting advice for optimized wizards, who may come into conflict with non-optimized bards and barbarians, there may be a little trouble down the road.


Originally Posted by Dalek
I’m hoping for a good build for each school of magic – a necromancer, diviner etc etc etc.

I'm the last person hereabouts who can give advice about a necromancer build, but fortunately I had some very good suggestions in a recent thread for a fourth-level necro-villain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374153-3-5-PF-Building-a-Mini-Necromancer). I ended up going with cleric rather than wizard for the chassis, but a lot of the build advice in that thread could be applied to low-level wizards. Might be a place to get started.

Dalek
2014-10-08, 05:06 PM
I'm aware of the optimization level this board can get to at times...that's what I'm looking for. I have ideas of my own, looking for some that I haven't thought of or read before myself. No Pun-Pun, but if I can get a Wish on a low level wizard...these guys will appreciate the optimization. Hell, they were impressed with my Charisma/Int pure fighter so now I'm just showing off.

I usually just DM (7 years now) but with this one group I actually get to play a character which is nice.

We have a gentleman's agreement not to outright go to war with each other - we are all guilds/groups from the same kingdom all looking to free it from the giants. The power disparity is something I'm looking to hilight really, I want my wizards to swoop in on bound Nightmares while astrally projecting and take care of whatever challenge the DM has given us before the rest of the players have even thought of their first move :smallamused:

That gentleman's agreement does not preclude some fighting against each other if our side quests (i.e. Guild specific goals) conflict - this will happen we have been told and we're all sort of looking forward to it and we have all agreed to just enjoy it when it does and not affect the interaction of the different guilds/groups in the rest of the campaign. We have never had PvP in this group so it was something I wanted to talk to them about and all seems very cool.

I'm looking at reserve feats, metamagic reducers, binding, undead animation/control and I've got a few character concepts I will roll up over the next few days, just looking for stuff I haven't thought of. This campaign won't be starting until January so I've got time to research and think and browse all those 3.5 books...

Thanks for the link, I like links, if you (or anyone else reading this) has more links for low level wizard builds that would be great as well.

Skysaber
2014-10-08, 06:09 PM
Familiar tricks are one of your easiest ways to boost this. Just consider 2 hawks and 2 owls flying overhead as scouts, one pair for day, the other for at night. They've all got massive Spot bonuses for the level, and unless the enemy makes a habit out of shooting down all creatures in the environment, they are effectively invisible as well.

They also move fast, so could find your target quickly. Have a raven too, so once the quick and high-Spot skill scout birds find the target they can lead the other bird in, and he'll come back and describe it all to you in detail.

Have a bat around in case there is fog cover.

Having good intel is key to so many things, and this scout group should be both fast and reliable.

Dalek
2014-10-09, 12:30 PM
Excellent point - most wizard players I've had in my group simply forget about their familiars. I will definitely look at bringing a variety of types for scouting, very good idea :smallsmile:

Eonir
2014-10-09, 01:32 PM
Here is the Easy Bake Wizard (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9738.msg329051#msg329051). A quick, nasty elven generalist domain eidactic wizard.

Again, nasty.

nimmo0110
2014-10-09, 01:33 PM
well i don't have much experience playing a wizard would polymorph other help? turn them in to an ainmal (with the 15th lv guy) use all their spells as buff or take a form that has what ever Component you need. Gaints would be very surpised if a zombie (for example) shoots a fire ball or magic missile

i may be wrong but a pixie seems like a good thing to turn in to, you will lose the invisibility and the spell like stuff, but small, a ok flight and very good hiding/ moving silently means you can move in and hide get a good position and then BOOM lots of spells and fireballs

Zirconia
2014-10-09, 02:44 PM
Low levels like 1-6 of course are where Wizards will be the toughest to succeed with compared to the other classes, but you still have things like Alter Self (Troglodyte or Tren) + Bull's Strength could be a nice way to get a couple of frontliners as low as third level, with Transmutation Specialization. Have a few dedicated Wizards with just enough Int to cast the relevant spells, they'll never throw a spell with a foe save so don't need to worry about DCs.

Then use Heroics, also 2nd level, to pick up Exotic Weapons Proficiency Spiked Chain, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, toss in an Enlarge, and you can probably match or exceed what the fightery types can do in the other guilds against something like an orc army, with back liners tossing Color Spray, Sleep, Glitterdust, etc.

The upside to Wizards is that you can buff your ACs enough that lowbie foes will have a significantly hard time hitting you, even before things like Mirror Images.

The scenarios sound preset enough that you can make good use of scrolls and pre-fight buffs for things like that, which is perfect for Wizards (admittedly also for Clerics). Orc army attacking? Bring Protection from Arrows. Giants? Bring Grease, and so on.

You could also buy some Guard Dogs, but that doesn't give you any special edge over the other guilds, other than the fact that you may be the least inclined of any of them to close to melee so you have the most reason to do it. Feel free, if they don't think of it though.

If you want to get more exotic, have a frontline wizard do a Tensers Floating Disk and tow around a Small sized caster on it with a 4-sided Mantlet (essentially full cover with arrow slits). Free +8 bonus to AC (PHB p. 152), watch the DM cry at your 3rd level BFC wizard with a 28 AC against orcs (+6 Troglodyte Natural from Alter Self, +4 Mage Armor, +8 cover, doesn't even assume any Dex bonus). It may be worth getting a clarification on the text about "directing" the disk before trying this, there has been debate on what that means recently on the forums.

Once you are talking 5th level against something like an orc army, depending on how the DM runs initiative you may be able to get quite a bit of damage with Reverse Arrows, 3rd level. That will certainly discourage the army from taking shots at temptingly exposed wizards.

darksolitaire
2014-10-09, 04:00 PM
Since ctr+f didn't bring up circle magic, I'll just throw that out. Sure it's Faerunian concept, but Red Wizards are in DMG and could be flavorful. Then there are the spellpools. Mage of the Arcane Order from Complete Arcane is another flavorful class. They only get 2 spells of up to 3rd level for 6th level characters, but still.

Yael
2014-10-09, 04:52 PM
Why not have them use the Cooperative Spell (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/cooperative-spell--426/) metamagic feat in order to achieve more power as a group?

Endarire
2014-10-09, 05:22 PM
Want to trick our your level 15 as a buffmage? Here we go!

TN Human Specialist Wizard3 (Divination or Transmutation are probably best)/War WeaverX/Incantatrix3/Hathran* 5.

(*Replace this with any Circle Magic using class as desired. Red Wizard and Halruaan Elder are two I know of.)

Use Sanctum Spell to qualify for War Weaver ASAP. You lose 1 caster level (boo) but you gain the ability to cast each of your non-Personal buff spells on a number of allies equal to your INT bonus. Incantatrix3 lets you Persist and Extend all your relevant buffs. You now have 48 hour buffs that affect you (the level 15) and your party members (the minions) for longer than it takes you to rest. You can fully buff, rest, then do this again.

Ensure you apply Sanctum spell to your buffs to treat them as 1 spell level lower. Thus, if you could normally apply level 3 spells to your tapestry, casting a Sanctum level 4 spell (polymorph et al) will treat it as a level 3 spell. You. Will. Rock. House.

One other bonus! You get Circle Magic, which can boost the base caster level of all the spells you cast to 40. This means you can have a caster level of 40 plus your other bonuses (such as from the Spell Compendium spell create magic tattoo) on a level 6 party. Nothing short of GM fiat will dispel those buffs. And if it so happens that your caster level is high enough, you don't need to Persist those spells; merely Extending them will make them last 48+ hours!

How do you get enough casters to contribute spell slots to fuel your Circle Magic? Simulacrum of yourself (or another powerful caster), of course!

Regarding item creation, Craft Wondrous Item is probably the most versatile and powerful item creation feat available. See more at The Cost Reduction Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1000.0).

Finally, snuggle up with Treantmonk (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0).

Dalek
2014-10-09, 05:28 PM
Some excellent ideas guys!

Troglodyte form is something I'm going to use (throw in a Fist of Stone, some Bull's Strength, Heroics, False Life, Mage Armor, Shield etc and I think I can make a melee wizard). I think I might need a few wands with Heroics and spam that all on one guy and watch him outfight the martial characters. Throw on some Displacement, Mirror Image etc and he should never get hit.

Totally forgot about Reverse Arrows, definitely going to make use of that.

I'm even thinking a Fly + Invisibility combo should bypass a lot of issues.

I've thought about Cooperative Spell, I figure that's one that I'll use when I have a bit of a larger group, but probably a solid choice for each wizard to take if they use any spells that allow a save (tho I am partial to the good ol' Save = None).

And a bag of holding with an air bottle and a bunch of war trained dogs is something I've been thinking of, though I was sort of considering goats just cuz that makes me chuckle a bit. War Goats!

Zircona, I love that floating disc idea, definitely going to give it a try and see how that shakes out.

Nimmo, I was thinking about using the level 15 dude to buff everyone with day long buffs but the DM did shut that down pretty quick (don't blame him, the ability of the 15th level wizard to supercharge his underlings would put the rest of the groups to shame). Doubt he'll allow too much Polymorph cheese but I'm going to try a double Polymorph Any Object and maybe turn a level 1 wizard into something...big. Permanently. See if it passes the DM approval.

Dalek
2014-10-09, 05:31 PM
Endaire, brilliant stuff, but the DM has already shot down my idea of using the level 15 to buff everyone. I'll still try ("but it lasts for 2 days, why wouldn't he?") but I am expecting that to not work.

Endarire
2014-10-09, 05:52 PM
What can the level 15 guy do to help the lower levels? Seemingly, he could call or create creatures for his minions to use. Planar binding and animate dead and simulacrum are just juicy for situations like this.

As for creating items, how would that work?

Skysaber
2014-10-09, 07:00 PM
You don't need any fancy tricks to buff your wizards into fighters. I mean, sure, you can do it, but there is next to no reason. You are just doing it to have something in the tank role, right? But the purpose of a tank is to soak some damage and attention from the enemy while you get around to killing them.

Oh, but wizards have plenty of options there!

Option One, guard dogs. Already been stated, but useful and everyone else can slap themselves in the face for not having thought of it. They only even need one trick "guard me", or if you prefer, "Attack!" or both, but I prefer "guard me" because your wizards can take 20 on it before entering the danger zone, and it doesn't cost them any actions during the fight.

Option Two, necromancy. Pass around scrolls or better yet an item of Animate Dead and each one of your wizards can have 2HD of skeletons or zombies standing between them any terror you meet. They don't have to accomplish anything else, just stand there, and even if they never land a hit on a foe during that fight, they will still have blocked enemy attempts to charge you. Even giants doing horrible amounts of damage that could kill a skele fifty times over still have to waste a turn hitting it to get it out of the way between you, and in that time you've got opportunity to drop Grease and other battlefield controllers to deny him any more attempts.

Option Three, Necromancy + Disguise! Zombies wearing robes and masks, told to wave their arms about in strange and random ways during combat are hard to distinguish from wizards. Give them fake wands that are treated in any number of ways to make the ends glow for even better results.

Option Four, Disguise Your Wizards. Now tell me honestly, if you were facing a group of wizards, familiars flying overhead, and ringed about by guard dogs and skeletons on the ground, would you be more wary of the dudes in robes waving glowy sticks about, or the dudes dressed as servants porting bags and trunks about? Drop a Fog Cloud over the fight and how are they even going to see which group is casting spells?

Option Five, Illusions! Would you rather that giant thump his big club down on one of your irreplaceable wizards, or would you prefer if he kept smacking at a figment of his imagination? Tell you what, you've got a pair of 1st level wizards in your proposed group. Have one of them use Silent Image to create a dozen allips. Allips are naturally immaterial, so perfectly silent, so a silent image of them does not give off any 'tells' they aren't real. Better, being incorporeal some blows naturally miss them anyway, so the enemy might have to pound them a half dozen times before the interaction seems any less real. And allips are scary, so I'd suspect any group you'd fight to give them at least a high targeting priority, taking that much heat off your wizards. Also, Silent Image is a first level spell and lasts Concentration, so one of your first level guys can keep that up for hours.

Another one using Ghost Sound cantrip at the start of a fight to grant appropriate sound effects (shouting orders, muttered command words, verbal components, etc) out of your disguised undead in robes.

Option Six, Charm! Have your scouts locate some of the enemy orcs, a small group out alone somewhere, and have all of your wizards load up Charm Person to suddenly become their best friends!

Don't forget that your familiars can drop bottles of Liquid Smoke to create cover.

Palanan
2014-10-09, 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by Dalek
I could do this on my own but I’m really not having the time to make a ton of characters right now so I’m hoping to get a few optimized level 1-6 builds for different wizard builds.

I hear you about the time constraints. Here's a handy Compilation of Low Level Builds (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2813.0) that's been around for a few years. These are fairly random in terms of class, but there should be a few wizard options you can grab and use.

Zirconia
2014-10-10, 10:06 AM
You don't need any fancy tricks to buff your wizards into fighters. I mean, sure, you can do it, but there is next to no reason. You are just doing it to have something in the tank role, right? But the purpose of a tank is to soak some damage and attention from the enemy while you get around to killing them.

Well, that is one reason, and with some DMs it can work quite well, with other, more strategic ones, not so much. The other big reason is damage efficiency, remember in a normal party the god wizard shuts stuff down and the buffed fightery types rotate damage around till all the foes drop. In this case, the actual wizards (or their summoned minions) will have to provide that damage, low level BFC doesn't last forever. It is probably more spell efficient to turn a couple wizards into combat monsters for the "getting around to killing them" part than to use direct spell damage, at least till you get to levels where you can do things like Solid Fog + AoE Damage Over Times.

I agree that summoned minions may well be able to fill this role, but lowbie minion damage tends to be kind of low relative to their fragility, and they don't tend to have area denial abilities like large area tripping/attacks of opportunity and such. I'm not sure which way is optimum here, because I've never used a lot of summoned stuff, in particular nobody in any campaign I've been in has summoned undead, we FIGHT the undead, dangit! :)

Dalek
2014-10-10, 10:59 AM
I'm just wanting to make one guy a melee wizard mostly because I think it would be funny. Half-orc or whatever (edit; I think Dwarf actually, I know it's going to be vs. Giants and another +4 AC would be good), just enough Int to cast low level spells and then a bunch of buffs. The guy playing Barbs is a good friend and he would laugh his @$$ off to see my low level wizard out barbarian his barbarians.

Guard dogs - yep, great idea, going to use it for sure.

Scrolls of animate dead - yep, planning on it.

The Level 15 guy is not supposed to do much apparently. "He's too busy" to help buff the low level guys (doesn't make sense to me, but the DM gets the call) so I'm thinking he might not be too busy to do a bit of Greater Binding to Bind some angels whose only job is to buff the low level guys before they go on a mission (and each day it casts a Heroes Feast for all!).

Disguise is a good idea, mess with their expectations and take them by surprise.

I'm also thinking of optimizing a guy for just spellcraft checks and load him with some high level spell scrolls.

Make a blaster with a few reserve feats and that sort of thing as well.

Palanan, thanks for that link, some nice stuff there.

Dalek
2014-10-10, 01:49 PM
So a couple build ideas I'm playing around with:

Grey Elf Generalist who uses Fly, Invisibility and a Scroll of Gate. He is focused on Spellcraft only to use high level scrolls. Also carries Teleport scrolls, Polymorph Any Object and anything else I can buy for him that would be ridiculous. My fall back for when things are going wrong, he unleashes the scrolls.

Half-Orc Wizard with low Int (12 max) but high Str & Con. Alter Self (Troglodyte), False Life, Heroics spammed (using wands(s)), Greater Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Enlarge Person and Displacement (using wands for most buffs). This guy is my front line damage dealer.

Supply Wizard: carries a board that has a Symbol of Death on it (cast by Level 15 guild leader - I am sure I can get this approved by the DM). Cover it with a sheet and uncover when facing large groups of low hp enemies. Also carries a portable hole with an air bottle and guard dogs he dumps out at a sign of trouble.

Battlefield Control wizard (your standard Focused Specialist/Master Specialist Conjurer) using Zircona's Floating Disc Tank idea. Casting Grease, Glitterdust, Color Spray, Sleep etc.

Evocation specialist who uses Reserve Feats to deal constant damage. Feats focusing on increasing DC (Fiery Burst Reserve) and to-hit for ranged touch (Acidic Splatter Reserve).

Gnome Focused Illusionist again using Fly, Invisibility and goes around casting illusions to change the perception of the battlefield and distract/disorient enemies.

Binding a Planetar who buffs the party before they go out. Provides a Heroes Feast for all each morning. Can provide Resurecction for fallen Guild members.

Endarire
2014-10-10, 02:29 PM
Grapplemancer Wizard (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3997.0) (More Details (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=13119))

Dalek
2014-10-10, 03:50 PM
Grapplemancer Wizard (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3997.0) (More Details (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=13119))

I like that. I like it a lot. That sounds like a fun wizard to play :smallbiggrin: