I want my sorcerer to out barbarian the barbarian

[Shadowscale]

So inspired by diablo II's sword sorceress, I wanted to know how one would build a primary melee combatant glass cannon type crazy melee damage type sorcerer.

I was thinking Stalwart Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer taking both and then tat's where I'm stuck like I want this caster to fill the melee glass cannon role and not the caster role, effectively replacing the barbarian.

Thoughts, suggestions?

[Extra Anchovies]

Best way for a caster to fill the melee role is via summoning, then via polymorph. The former has an advantage because summons' HP totals are almost irrelevant, while yours is not.

[Shadowscale]

Best way for a caster to fill the melee role is via summoning, then via polymorph. The former has an advantage because summons' HP totals are almost irrelevant, while yours is not.
More want this effective from first level on only getting better at melee and enhancing melee with spells as I go, maybe using spells to teleport or enhance my and my teammate's attacks. Bull's strength etc.

[Andion Isurand]

In Dragon Magazine 338 page 97, they have additional sorcerer spells available for Orcs and Dwarves to choose that don't normally appear on the sorcerer list. Might be worth a peek.

You could use an orc or half-orc sorcerer with divine power and righteous might as sorcerer spells.

[Extra Anchovies]

Fist of Stone is a great 1st-level spell, duration is fixed at 1 minute and it gives you +6 Str and a slam attack. That plus the d8 hit die from Battle Sorcerer should be enough of a start, and you can keep buffing from there.

[Taveena]

There are a lot of great prestige classes for gishy types - Abjurant Champion is great, Swiftblade is great, Jade Phoenix Mage is great (consider a Crusader dip for the latter). You'll be a relative glass cannon no matter what, but these can give you a LITTLE more survivability while making sure you out-melee the melee.

[Gullintanni]

More want this effective from first level on only getting better at melee and enhancing melee with spells as I go, maybe using spells to teleport or enhance my and my teammate's attacks. Bull's strength etc.

Are you familiar with the Sorcadin build? Paladin 2//Sorc 4//Spellsword 1//Abjurant Champion 5//Whatever X (I think Sacred Exorcist is the standard here). You can use Battle Sorcerer from SRD if you want to focus even more on the physical element. You'd have a lower selection of spells known, but you'd still have more than enough to enhance your combat abilities. Paladin fluff can feel a bit restrictive, and if you're having trouble marrying that with your character concept, Paladin variants such as the Paladin of Freedom offer a little bit of variety.

This does almost everything you want it to though...you're great with a sword, have spells for variety...you're still more squishy than the average front liner so that's a check mark in the glass cannon box.

[Troacctid]

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer is generally not so good. Losing 2 spells known at each spell level means you don't even learn your first 1st level spell until Sorcerer 3, and you don't get a 2nd level spell until Sorcerer 7. And that's just...I mean, at that point a Bard would have better spells than you do.

What you really want is a Duskblade, not a Sorcerer. That's the class that does what you're looking for. Very high damage output with spell channeling, very good at using magic in combat, and has full BAB and a d8 hit die from the get-go, plus weapon and armor proficiencies. And unlike a lot of Sorcerer gish builds, it can do its thing just fine as soon as 1st level.

[Extra Anchovies]

Are you familiar with the Sorcadin build? Paladin 2//Sorc 4//Spellsword 1//Abjurant Champion 5//Whatever X (I think Sacred Exorcist is the standard here). You can use Battle Sorcerer from SRD if you want to focus even more on the physical element. You'd have a lower selection of spells known, but you'd still have more than enough to enhance your combat abilities. Paladin fluff can feel a bit restrictive, and if you're having trouble marrying that with your character concept, Paladin variants such as the Paladin of Freedom offer a little bit of variety.

This does almost everything you want it to though...you're great with a sword, have spells for variety...you're still more squishy than the average front liner so that's a check mark in the glass cannon box.

I second this build. You wouldn't even need to use Battle Sorcerer here: by not taking it, you only give up 1 point of BAB and an average of 8 HP. Not too bad of a trade for nine spells known and nine spells per day. Also, with the aforementioned Orc Descent feat (be a Desert Half-Orc for no Charisma penalty), you get Divine Power and Righteous Might, and you might be able to DMM: Persist those (ask your DM).


Stalwart Battle Sorcerer is generally not so good. Losing 2 spells known at each spell level means you don't even learn your first 1st level spell until Sorcerer 3, and you don't get a 2nd level spell until Sorcerer 7. And that's just...I mean, at that point a Bard would have better spells than you do.

What you really want is a Duskblade, not a Sorcerer. That's the class that does what you're looking for. Very high damage output with spell channeling, very good at using magic in combat, and has full BAB and a d8 hit die from the get-go, plus weapon and armor proficiencies. And unlike a lot of Sorcerer gish builds, it can do its thing just fine as soon as 1st level.

Duskblade gets very few buffs. Investing in Extra Spell would be too feat-intensive (not to mention reliant on GM fiat). Also, Stalwart Sorcerer only reduces the number of spells you know of the highest level you can cast.

[Xerlith]

The number of buffs the duskblade gets is mostly irrelevant. The simplest way to up your defences is to grab Abjurant Champion levels and be a Duskblade5/Abjurant Champion5/Duskblade+10

[Gwendol]

I thought that Alter self -> Polymorph was the go to option for melee casters?

[Extra Anchovies]

The number of buffs the duskblade gets is mostly irrelevant. The simplest way to up your defences is to grab Abjurant Champion levels and be a Duskblade5/Abjurant Champion5/Duskblade+10

How would Abjurant Champion help a duskblade build? They have eight (8) abjurations on their spell list:

Resist Energy - 1st
Lesser Deflect - 1st
Deflect - 2nd
Dispelling Touch - 3rd
Energy Aegis - 3rd
Protection From Energy - 3rd
Dispel Magic - 4th
Slashing Dispel - 5th

Of those, only Deflect and Lesser Deflect benefit from Abjurant Armor, and those only last one round. Most of those 3rd-level and below benefit from Extended Abjuration, but you have so many low-level spell slots that it hardly matters (although it does make Deflect a bit better). Swift Abjuration would be situationally useful (on Energy Aegis, for example). Arcane Boost remains moderately useful for the save bonus, AC bonus, and/or energy resistance, but the attack/damage version is strictly worse than Arcane Strike (swift vs. free action). Martial Arcanist does literally nothing for a Duskblade.

Admittedly, it's not worse than 5 levels of Duskblade, but it's not too much of a gain. Duskblade 14 (for full attack channeling)/Abjurant Champion 5/Duskblade 1 or Duskblade 15/Abjurant Champion 5 would probably be best; the stuff you gain from Abjurant Champion is not worth delaying full-attack channeling by five levels.

[A_S]

Nitpick: Deflect gets the bonus from Abjurant Champion, but Lesser Deflect doesn't (because it's a Deflection bonus, rather than a Shield bonus).

...which is stupid.

[backwaterj]

Am I the only one sensing the irony in optimizing defense on what the OP described as a "glass cannon" build?

To fit the flavor, single-class duskblade seems your easiest option.

[Azoth]

Sorcerer6/Ruathar1/Swiftblade6/Abjurant champion5/Ruathar+2

16BAB and 9th level spells. All of abjurant champion's defensive buffs, as well as Swiftblade goodies.

Ruathar is used as classic filler to keep caster level without wasting resources.

I would recomend human or strongheart halfling if not using flaws as this build eats three feats that are pretty useless to you. (Dodge, Mobility, and Combat Casting).

[Andion Isurand]

Sorcerer6/Ruathar1/Swiftblade6/Abjurant champion5/Ruathar+2

16BAB and 9th level spells. All of abjurant champion's defensive buffs, as well as Swiftblade goodies.

Ruathar is used as classic filler to keep caster level without wasting resources.

I would recomend human or strongheart halfling if not using flaws as this build eats three feats that are pretty useless to you. (Dodge, Mobility, and Combat Casting).

On the side, if you ever go wizard with a halfling swiftblade, I would check out the Halfling Wizard substitution levels in Dragon Magazine 337.

As 3rd-level halfling wizard, you can trade your 2 spells automatically learned, in exchange for a 1st-level spell from any other class spell list... and prepare/cast it as a 2nd-level wizard spell.

You could, for instance, learn to prepare/cast Haste as a 2nd-level wizard spell by picking it from the Trapsmith's spell list (where it's a 1st-level spell).

[Extra Anchovies]

On the side, if you ever go wizard with a halfling swiftblade, I would check out the Halfling Wizard substitution levels in Dragon Magazine 337.

As 3rd-level halfling wizard, you can trade your 2 spells automatically learned, in exchange for a 1st-level spell from any other class spell list... and prepare/cast it as a 2nd-level wizard spell.

You could, for instance, learn to prepare/cast Haste as a 2nd-level wizard spell by picking it from the Trapsmith's spell list (where it's a 1st-level spell).

The thing is, you still need to use all of your third-level spell slots to cast Haste. So you'd have to pick up Extend Spell or something similar.

[Fouredged Sword]

Here is my sorcerer melee build that is valid from level 1.

Azurin Sorcerer 5 / Ruathar 3 / abjurant champion 5 / initiate of the sevenfold veil 7

Feats
level 1 - Shape Soulmeld - Astral vambraces - Great DR 4/- at level 1 will keep you alive
Bouns feat - Combat Casting - Prereq for abjurant champion
Level 3 feat - Sanctum Spell - Count as casting 3rd level spells in time for Ruathar
Level 6 feat - Planer touchstone (Coe, inquisition domian)

Ruathar grants better bab than sorcerer, a few odd bonuses and martial weapon prof for the weapon needed for abjurant champion.

Basically, this build is a non-paladin sorcerer gish, though it works well with just about any arcane caster.

[Bluydee]

The thing is, you still need to use all of your third-level spell slots to cast Haste. So you'd have to pick up Extend Spell or something similar.

Errata'd. You now have to spend all the slots of the level you can cast it to qualify.

[Endarire]

It's a Wizard, but Hood (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2462.0) has a Shadowcraft Mage version.

Be a Dragonborn Whisper Gnome. For your level 1 feats, take Spell Focus: Illusion, Metamagic School Focus: Illusion, and Heighten Spell. Trade your Scribe Scroll feat (via the Martial Wizard variant) for the Fighter feat of Battle Jump.

Enjoy!

[Extra Anchovies]

It's a Wizard, but Hood (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2462.0) has a Shadowcraft Mage version.

Be a Dragonborn Whisper Gnome. For your level 1 feats, take Spell Focus: Illusion, Metamagic School Focus: Illusion, and Heighten Spell. Trade your Scribe Scroll feat (via the Martial Wizard variant) for the Fighter feat of Battle Jump.

Enjoy!

How do you get three? Flaws, yeah. But lots of DMs don't use them for exactly the reason we love them. Does the build work with delayed feat progression?