Druid - Powergamer?

[Wacky89]

So I've just been called a powergamer because I wanted to stay in Desmodu Hunting Bat form while adventuring. Casting spells with the natural spell feat, is this really what it takes to be called a powergamer? I know druid is a tier1 class and they are very powerful, but I mean. Come on!

The person that called me a powergamer mostly plays tier 3-6 classes.

[Shinken]

Look, I know you mean well, but the tier system is indeed to avoid situations like this. If you know the tier system and are still playing a tier 1 class, splat diving for wild shape forms nonetheless, wel...

[weckar]

Although the tier system isn't quite system canon, I have to agree. It depends on what the rest of the party looks like though: top end like you or low end like them?

[Wacky89]

splat diving? Is splat diving using Monster Manual II?

[Wacky89]

The rest of the party is a Wizard/Archmage, Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor, a Paladin/Vassal of Bahamut and a Ninja/Master Thrower (The one saying im a powergamer).

We're playing on level 16

[weckar]

*spittake*

A ninja in a Wizard/Druid/Cleric party? You're good, don't worry...

[Jacque]

Why would your character want to adventure in the form of a desmodu hunting bat?

[lytokk]

Why would your character want to adventure in the form of a desmodu hunting bat?

Small size, fight with good maneuverability (which means you can hover), good AC and a smattering of other things. Its a good form for a caster druid. Granted it seems boring to me but whatever floats your boat.

I can't speak for the ninja, but why is it he doesn't have problems with the rest of the group? The paladin I can believe, but the cleric and wizard? Are they toning down their power so that the ninja hasn't become redundant? Are you or your summons doing the stealthy things that he was hoping to focus on?

[Wacky89]

to scout for the party, to be safe from immediate danger on the ground.

We're currently playing Chapter 1 of the adventure, we get to change characters.

The cleric isn't using DMM.
The Wizard is focusing on buffs/BFC/Debuffs. He's changing to a wizard fighter using self buffs and hitting stuff.
Currently I'm playing a Druid 5 / Master of many Forms 10 / Nature's Warrior 1.
My plan isn't summoning, I'm doing some minor blasting/BFC/buffing.

[Jacque]

I know the form has great game mechanical advantages - but if you only chose the form because it is the optimized form for stats and abilities then perhaps that is why he calls you a powergamer.

If your argumentation was based on warm fur, background story, the joy and freedom of being able to fly, the fun of seeing the world upside down, your characters keen interest in exploring this particular form due to RP reasons etc. then perhaps it would not be concieved as a powergaming move.

Instead you probably chose it for the high dex without considering how unnatural it might feel for you to adjust to your new form.

You know, the fluff stuff.

Perhaps this is where he draws the line instead of who is tier what.

[Spore]

Instead you probably chose it for the high dex without considering how unnatural it might feel for you to adjust to your new form.

His CLASS even is called MASTER of many forms. I don't see how this doesn't qualify for fluff. In addition he is a 16th level character. Mysticism and surviving the harsh battles is far more important to such a character than "having a nice jog once in a while".

That being said staying in animal form unable being to communicate creates problems. Show them that you can participate in roleplaying besides being talked to. With enough actions a shaped druid can still communicate basic stuff. "The now bat formed druid flaps happily upon seeing the return of a fellow companion."

the main complaint here is that you exempt yourself from roleplaying by not being able to talk.

[Jacque]

His CLASS even is called MASTER of many forms. I don't see how this doesn't qualify for fluff. In addition he is a 16th level character. Mysticism and surviving the harsh battles is far more important to such a character than "having a nice jog once in a while".

Perhaps he should try to tell this to the ninja who calls him a powergamer. I am guessing that the Ninja does not believe in the Stormwind Fallacy, and that the druid has crossed a line where the powergaming limits his roleplaying by doing something that no normal person would do. So, I'm saying that the druid should make it clear to the ninja that he is no normal person for example by citing the fluff attached to Master of Many Forms.

[darksolitaire]

Currently I'm playing a Druid 5 / Master of many Forms 10 / Nature's Warrior 1.


I can't consider that power gaming. MoMF doesn't give any wild shape or animal companion progression, if anything it needs splat books to stay in the same group with full casters. Next level Shapechange and Co become online for full casters.

[illyahr]

I can't consider that power gaming. MoMF doesn't give any wild shape or animal companion progression, if anything it needs splat books to stay in the same group with full casters. Next level Shapechange and Co become online for full casters.

I agree. You have deliberately moved yourself down at least a tier, maybe two. This is probably a guy who thinks monks are the strongest class because of all of their class features.

[Wacky89]

My new character for Chapter 2 was planned to be Druid 10 / Contemplative 8. At chapter 2 we start at level 18.

I asked him and the problem was he thought wild shape was too overpowered.
He didnt think a druid would stay in wild shape while adventuring, he thought it didnt make sense.

When I'm playing my current character I'm using Gorynych from Lost Empires of Faerûn and Sun Giant from MMII.
I was just playing him as a frontliner, he had a big problem with me being able to have 9 attacks at level 16.

[Necroticplague]

My new character for Chapter 2 was planned to be Druid 10 / Contemplative 8. At chapter 2 we start at level 18.

I asked him and the problem was he thought wild shape was too overpowered.
He didnt think a druid would stay in wild shape while adventuring, he thought it didnt make sense.

When I'm playing my current character I'm using Gorynych from Lost Empires of Faerûn and Sun Giant from MMII.
I was just playing him as a frontliner, he had a big problem with me being able to have 9 attacks at level 16.

Well' you're an MoMF. Practically half the fluff is that you spend ridiculous amount of times in non-base forms, depending on what would be useful. If he thinks it doesn't make sense, the problem is him being a moron, in addition to a slight annoying case of "your not roleplaying your character how I think you should", to which the proper response is "tough s***, its my character, not yours".

He is somewhat right about wild shape: it is pretty useful on its own, though its overall weaker than other methods of shapechanging unless you focus a lot on it. And that focus makes you weaker at other things, like severely lagging behind on your spellcasting. You did focus on it, but that makes it your one trick. And getting a whole lot of attacks isn't even remotely unique to wild shape. Totemists can do it, Warshaper can pump it into overdrive, some simple optimized TWF can do it. None of them are particularly powerful, especially since those attacks are individually less likely to hit and weaker.

In summary: don't worry, the problem is on his end, not yours.

[Shinken]

*spittake*

A ninja in a Wizard/Druid/Cleric party? You're good, don't worry...

A ninja and paladin, almost half the party. Considering only one player is seemingly causing trouble, it looks like the Wizard and the Cleric are playing nice (just like the tier systesm suggests). Our druid fellow, on the other hand...

[Raven777]

Our druid fellow, on the other hand...

What? Achieving flight and staying out of the way is a pretty bog standard caster tactic. Ain't the Wizard operating under Overland Flight? If I could reshape reality while hovering 100 feet above actual danger, I would too.

[Shinken]

What? Achieving flight and staying out of the way is a pretty bog standard caster tactic. Ain't the Wizard operating under Overland Flight? If I could reshape reality while hovering 100 feet above actual danger, I would too.

Then you shouldn't be playing a tier 1 caster with lower tier characters in the group.

Just like the OP.

[illyahr]

Our druid fellow, on the other hand...

...has dropped himself to Tier 3. Cleric sounds like he is playing Tier 2 or so, Wizard is playing Tier 2. Paladin is playing Tier 3 or 4. Everyone else seems to be playing at roughly the same level so it is the ninja who is the odd one out.

[Wacky89]

A ninja and paladin, almost half the party. Considering only one player is seemingly causing trouble, it looks like the Wizard and the Cleric are playing nice (just like the tier systesm suggests). Our druid fellow, on the other hand...

I thought I was playing nice by not going full summoner, which druids are crazy good at.

[Eldest]

I thought I was playing nice by not going full summoner, which druids are crazy good at.

You are playing nice.

[illyahr]

You are playing nice.

+1 to this.

[Bronk]

I guess the ninja/master thrower got bored with turning invisible and sneak attacking his foes with impunity whenever he wants... Maybe he should have picked a class combo with more than one trick instead of getting jealous.

[Squark]

Well, yeah, you're a powergamer. You're playing a shapeshifter and you're aware of what they can do, and you know some good forms for it.

That's not a bad thing, though- Optimization is independant of roleplay. The character you've built does little but shapeshift. Expecting your character not to spend most of his time in some form or another is kind of silly.

This seems like a power issue. Ninja is a... poorly designed class, while the rest of the party is pretty well built. You're probably not the most powerful character in the party, but you are the flashiest. Try to explain to him that transforming is about all your character does, and that you've actually sacrificed a fair amount of power by not learning more powerful spells. Or, if he thinks you're not roleplaying, play up the shapeshifter aspect of your character; spend a few wild shape uses on something not to important but fun, like shifting rapidly between a few forms. Have your character forget they're shapechanged because it's so second nature to them by now. If your party is the observant type, get your normal form wrong somehow, or play with minor shapeshifting changes to your appearances.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Perhaps he should try to tell this to the ninja who calls him a powergamer. I am guessing that the Ninja does not believe in the Stormwind Fallacy, and that the druid has crossed a line where the powergaming limits his roleplaying by doing something that no normal person would do. So, I'm saying that the druid should make it clear to the ninja that he is no normal person for example by citing the fluff attached to Master of Many Forms.On the one hand, yes, one should probably have fluff explanations for major life decisions like being a master of many forms, and best case scenario is that this comes out during RP.

But if no one else seems to mind what's going on, the OP doesn't have to explain himself to a jerk.

[Rebel7284]

At level 18, you can use Rod of Extend, Greater to Shapechange for 6 hours at a time at least... if he is worried about Desdemodu Hunting Bat, he is probably used to low level play where melee doesn't suck. :)

Edit: Actually, I am not 100% clear if he is complaining about your current character (you are casting 3rd level spells at 16th level? Who the hell cares? Turn into something that eats faces!) or if he is complaining about the 18th level druid concept.

[Urpriest]

splat diving? Is splat diving using Monster Manual II?

...yes? It's an obscure 3.0 book full of lots of famously mis-CRed monsters. You need two different pdfs to even use it, and generally some DM rulings on top of that.

Look, you're not going all-Tippy, but you're still playing a plausibly Tier 1 character. Whether or not you're balanced with the other players depends on, gasp, whether or not you're balanced with the other players. It seems like you've got a pretty wide range of power levels in your group, which should probably have been addressed somewhat earlier. The big problem is that someone in your group thinks that "powergamer" is an argument-ending accusation, which suggests you're playing with people who don't have sufficient maturity to play D&D 3.5.

Edit: Missed the MoMF element.

[eggynack]

Desmodu hunting bat doesn't even seem like all that great a form when you're running ten levels of master of many forms. I mean, really, mercury dragon form is right there, granting a 250 ft. (good) flight speed and 26 AC (or 29, if large), without sacrificing too much in the way of other abilities. Even a standard druid would be better off in dire tortoise form at this point. That's just basic stuff too, and it's pretty hard to justify criticizing your flying/magic plan when the magic is 3rd level spells at 16th level.

Beyond that, it makes perfect sense to make decisions like this on a power basis, even from a roleplaying perspective. Sure, if you have a character specific reason to hang out in human form, or always be a bear, you should probably do one of those things, but the thing of it is, power isn't just a metagame construct. Your character should have a reasonable idea of what forms are the most powerful, and all other things being equal, your character should do the most powerful thing they're capable of. Just as you want your druid to not die, so too does your druid want to not die.

[Extra Anchovies]

...yes? It's an obscure 3.0 book full of lots of famously mis-CRed monsters. You need two different pdfs to even use it, and generally some DM rulings on top of that.

Which two? I have the 3.5 update, is there also an errata file somewhere?


I can't consider that power gaming. MoMF doesn't give any wild shape or animal companion progression, if anything it needs splat books to stay in the same group with full casters. Next level Shapechange and Co become online for full casters.


Shifter's Speech (Ex): A master of many forms maintains her ability to speak normally (including verbal components of spells) regardless of the form she takes. Furthermore, she can communicate with other creatures of the same kind while in wild shape, as long as such creatures are normally capable of communicating with each other using natural methods.

Improved Wild Shape (Su): A master of many forms knows how to use her wild shape ability to assume a wider range of forms. At 1st level, she can assume a humanoid form with wild shape. She later gains the ability to assume the form of a giant (at 2nd level), a monstrous humanoid (at 3rd level), a fey (at 4th level), a vermin (at 5th level), an aberration (at 6th level), a plant (at 7th level), an ooze (at 8th level), an elemental (at 9th level), and a dragon (at 10th level).
The size limit of the shapes she can assume also increases as she gains levels. At 2nd level, she can assume the form of a Large creature; at 4th level, a Tiny creature; at 6th level, a Huge creature; at 8th level, a Diminutive creature; and at 10th level, a Gargantuan creature.
A master of many forms also gains one additional daily use of her wild shape ability per class level gained.
The master of many forms' class levels stack with other class levels that grant wild shape for the purpose of determining the maximum Hit Dice of a form.

Fast Wild Shape (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a master of many forms can use her wild shape ability as a move action, rather than as a standard action.

Extraordinary Wild Shape (Ex): Starting at 7th level, a master of many forms gains the extraordinary special qualities of any form she assumes with wild shape.

Evershifting Form: A 10th-level master of many forms has reached the pinnacle of her shapechanging abilities. She gains the shapechanger subtype and becomes immune to any transmutation effect unless she is willing to accept it.
In addition, she no longer takes ability penalties for aging and is not subject to magical aging, though any aging penalties she already may have taken remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and a master of many forms still dies of old age when her time is up.What was that about no wild shape progression? I think you meant casting and animal companion :smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

Which two? I have the 3.5 update, is there also an errata file somewhere?

Not to my knowledge, no. Pretty sure he was just talking about the update file, which might be sometimes incorporated into the main file, but it certainly isn't always. For reference, the only difference in this case that I'm aware of is that blindsight is toned down to the somewhat more reasonable blindsense.

[darksolitaire]

progression? I think you meant casting and animal companion :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, I did. Well, at least everyone picked that up :smallredface:

[emeraldstreak]

alternatively, let the ninja rebuild with advice from forums

[Urpriest]

Which two? I have the 3.5 update, is there also an errata file somewhere?


I tend to think of the books as pdfs, owing to various unsavory practices. I merely meant the book itself, plus the update file.

[EisenKreutzer]

The correct response to this is "Yes, I have optimized my character. I also roleplay. Deal with it."

[icefractal]

It sounds like this guy is just unfamiliar with high level play, in general. I mean - you have 10 levels of Master of Many Forms. That's a character who is all about shapeshifting, to the extent of a significant sacrifice in other areas. Expecting a character like that to not be in an alternate form - at pretty much any time - seems silly.

I've seen this attitude before though, mostly in people who've mostly played low-level games and not really examined what the classes become capable of. So they think of the "casters are squishy, PCs don't fly, damage is measured in the low double-digits" paradigm as normal, and anything outside that as some cheesy aberration. I've heard people complaining about most characters having flight ... in a 10th level game.

[Phelix-Mu]

@OP: Pick one or two other forms and spend smallish amounts of time in them, to defray criticism. I'd go for dire hawk for whenever you aren't expecting combat, long-distance travel, and scouting where you are looking for Spot bonuses; dire tortoise or maybe one of the MoMF-enabled forms, like something tiny or something for stealthing. The ninja barely has legs to stand on with this complaint, so do him the favor of removing them.:smallsmile:

[eggynack]

At this point, I think I'm mostly just impressed that you somehow managed to pull off a defensive casting plan at 16th level using a maximum of 3rd level spells, to the extent that you got an OP accusation. That's a neat thing right there.

[Vogonjeltz]

So I've just been called a powergamer because I wanted to stay in Desmodu Hunting Bat form while adventuring. Casting spells with the natural spell feat, is this really what it takes to be called a powergamer? I know druid is a tier1 class and they are very powerful, but I mean. Come on!

The person that called me a powergamer mostly plays tier 3-6 classes.

Why do you care what the other player thinks? I mean, you can't even speak as a bat. Is their real complaint that you went hunting for an obscure animal shape? (native to underdark). If so, that's the DMs call to make. If they (DM) didn't want you to turn into one, all they had to say was that your Druid wasn't familiar with it, end of story.

[Phelix-Mu]

At this point, I think I'm mostly just impressed that you somehow managed to pull off a defensive casting plan at 16th level using a maximum of 3rd level spells, to the extent that you got an OP accusation. That's a neat thing right there.

And backs up the analysis that the ninja's argument is weak/nonexistent. This is clearly not a high-op environment, and if the druid's schtick is being good at picking forms, then the ninja can hardly complain. That'd be like the druid saying to the ninja "man, you wear too much black."

[eggynack]

Why do you care what the other player thinks? I mean, you can't even speak as a bat. Is their real complaint that you went hunting for an obscure animal shape? (native to underdark). If so, that's the DMs call to make. If they (DM) didn't want you to turn into one, all they had to say was that your Druid wasn't familiar with it, end of story.
He can speak as a bat, actually, due to shifter's speech from master of many forms. As for the DM's call thing, that's really no more true here than it would be for a DM altering any rule. Familiarity, to all indications, can be acquired through a reasonably simple knowledge roll.

[Endarire]

OP: You're powerful but so is everyone else on your team. And all of you are level 16. That's more than high enough level to conquer/destroy most mortal planes!

[Seppo87]

If your argumentation was based on warm fur, background story, the joy and freedom of being able to fly, the fun of seeing the world upside down, your characters keen interest in exploring this particular form due to RP reasons etc. then perhaps it would not be concieved as a powergaming move.
Because of the joy of NOT DYING...?
Have you considered that the character is an adventurer who whould realistically make efficient choices when adventuring?

Or do you need roleplay reasons to protect your life at the best of your abilities?

[Rubik]

Because of the joy of NOT DYING...?
Have you considered that the character is an adventurer who whould realistically make efficient choices when adventuring?

Or do you need roleplay reasons to protect your life at the best of your abilities?This.

Why would anyone willingly risk their life in a stupidly dangerous profession without any care as to their survival? Anyone with an Int and Wis of 6 or higher should go out of their way to ensure they're as well-equipped as possible to survive being an adventurer.

In other words, not optimizing to any degree is BAD RP, unless your character is stubbornly stupid or suicidal.

[Brookshw]

The correct response to this is "Yes, I have optimized my character. I also roleplay. Deal with it."

No, that's not an answer at all. Something at the table is causing a player to have less fun, and they've spoken out about it. Not in an articulate fashion but they have. The solution here shouldn't be to justify their concern, it should be to identify the problem and find ways to increase their fun.

OP: So ninja, not horribly powerful, but whatever floats the boat. What tactics do they lean on? What's the usual spell load out. Can you swap in some spells that will help them contribute more, buffs, terrain, something? Maybe the occasional summons for flank even.

[eggynack]

No, that's not an answer at all. Something at the table is causing a player to have less fun, and they've spoken out about it. Not in an articulate fashion but they have. The solution here shouldn't be to justify their concern, it should be to identify the problem and find ways to increase their fun.

It seems probable, given the composition of the rest of the party and the druid's build, that the ninja's issue lies in the specific thing being done, taking a semi-obscure wild shape form for extended periods, rather than in some bigger issue with the game's balance. It also seems probable, given the fact that the ninja's issue is rooted in method rather than outcome, that trying to optimize the ninja would be counterproductive.

[Wacky89]

I dont know if you read the whole thread. But my current character the master of many forms, is not really casting spells other than maybe Brambles, Shillelagh & Primal Instinct.
My current character was using Gorynych from Lost Empires of Faerun and Sun Giant from MMII. Those were the 2 combat forms, I was limited to picking up 10 forms so I didnt get out of hand, the rest I picked was all utility forms. Like forms with water glide, earth glide and the like.

It was my next character for the next chapter of the campaign (We were allowed to change character inbetween chapters) that was planning to use the batform while casting spells.
The new build was going to be druid 10 / Contemplative 8, since I wanted to focus less on wild shape.
The new build would not be focused on summoning at all, it would focus on buffs, BFC and debuffing.

[Nihilarian]

Point the Ninja at the Swordsage class and his concerns will likely evaporate.

[eggynack]

It was my next character for the next chapter of the campaign (We were allowed to change character inbetween chapters) that was planning to use the batform while casting spells.
The new build was going to be druid 10 / Contemplative 8, since I wanted to focus less on wild shape.
The new build would not be focused on summoning at all, it would focus on buffs, BFC and debuffing.
Ah, that was somewhat unclear. In that case, you would indeed be doing quite powerful things, though you could be doing better things with wild shape if you had more of it. You have a very good chance of overpowering a ninja, but that would be more than possible without any wild shape at all. I mean, really, shapechange is right there.

[Wacky89]

Ah, that was somewhat unclear. In that case, you would indeed be doing quite powerful things, though you could be doing better things with wild shape if you had more of it. You have a very good chance of overpowering a ninja, but that would be more than possible without any wild shape at all. I mean, really, shapechange is right there.

Polymorph/Shapechange was actually banned.
I was allowed to wild shape as a caster if I only used animals.

The ninja was planning to change to a blaster sorcerer, but he just ragequit the campaign.
Saying and I quote
"****ing powerplayers"
"Im sick of Ryn being 2nd classes by Jaeger(My character in a different campaign) as well too"
"Thank you for costing me the best 2 DM's I've ever had"
"you *********** *****"

I kinda feel bad, seems like I'm a really bad guy for playing the game how I want to play it.

[Extra Anchovies]

I kinda feel bad, seems like I'm a really bad guy for playing the game how I want to play it.

Nah. He just refuses to accept that some people (a lot of people actually) want to play the game in the way that you do.

[Rubik]

I kinda feel badYou really, really, really, really, really shouldn't.

[squiggit]

Yeah that's drifting away from "annoyed because I'm getting outclassed" territory and into "*******" territory.

[kellbyb]

The ninja was planning to change to a blaster sorcerer, but he just ragequit the campaign.
Saying and I quote
"****ing powerplayers"
"Im sick of Ryn being 2nd classes by Jaeger(My character in a different campaign) as well too"
"Thank you for costing me the best 2 DM's I've ever had"
"you *********** *****"

To which you should respond with "Don't let the door hit you on the way out."

[Nihilarian]

Polymorph/Shapechange was actually banned.
I was allowed to wild shape as a caster if I only used animals.

The ninja was planning to change to a blaster sorcerer, but he just ragequit the campaign.
Saying and I quote
"****ing powerplayers"
"Im sick of Ryn being 2nd classes by Jaeger(My character in a different campaign) as well too"
"Thank you for costing me the best 2 DM's I've ever had"
"you ********** *****"

I kinda feel bad, seems like I'm a really bad guy for playing the game how I want to play it.You're only allowed to use animal forms?! Why are you a MoMF if you can only turn into animals?! You are doing literally the opposite of powergaming, the ninja just sucks.

[Brookshw]

It seems probable, given the composition of the rest of the party and the druid's build, that the ninja's issue lies in the specific thing being done, taking a semi-obscure wild shape form for extended periods, rather than in some bigger issue with the game's balance. It also seems probable, given the fact that the ninja's issue is rooted in method rather than outcome, that trying to optimize the ninja would be counterproductive.

That seems somewhat suspect in so far as we don't know what the ninja's doing. Could there be something else at play? Possibly, and maybe it is just a difference in expectations. Do we know that? No, we don't. It's a rare thing when someone simply complains that another has a toy unless it somehow reduces the value of their own.


I dont know if you read the whole thread. But my current character the master of many forms, is not really casting spells other than maybe Brambles, Shillelagh & Primal Instinct.
My current character was using Gorynych from Lost Empires of Faerun and Sun Giant from MMII. Those were the 2 combat forms, I was limited to picking up 10 forms so I didnt get out of hand, the rest I picked was all utility forms. Like forms with water glide, earth glide and the like.


I've followed it, yes. You still haven't told me much of what the ninjas doing really. I get you haven't done much spell casting, but that's not what I asked. Telling me about two other semi obscure forms you have doesn't really answer the question either.

[Namfuak]

Polymorph/Shapechange was actually banned.
I was allowed to wild shape as a caster if I only used animals.

The ninja was planning to change to a blaster sorcerer, but he just ragequit the campaign.
Saying and I quote
"****ing powerplayers"
"Im sick of Ryn being 2nd classes by Jaeger(My character in a different campaign) as well too"
"Thank you for costing me the best 2 DM's I've ever had"
"you ********** *****"

I kinda feel bad, seems like I'm a really bad guy for playing the game how I want to play it.

This guy sounds like he needs to step back and consider why he's getting so mad at games, and perhaps choose a different hobby if he can't deal with people in a calm, non-argumentative manner. If I were you I'd just chalk this up to "some people are just unreasonable" and forget about it.

[EisenKreutzer]

Polymorph/Shapechange was actually banned.
I was allowed to wild shape as a caster if I only used animals.

The ninja was planning to change to a blaster sorcerer, but he just ragequit the campaign.
Saying and I quote
"****ing powerplayers"
"Im sick of Ryn being 2nd classes by Jaeger(My character in a different campaign) as well too"
"Thank you for costing me the best 2 DM's I've ever had"
"you ********** *****"

I kinda feel bad, seems like I'm a really bad guy for playing the game how I want to play it.

Here's whats happening, as I see it. The Ninja player loves roleplaying games, but he's not that good with mechanics. He builds characters for flavour, and has a mental image of how awesome his character is going to be. His problem is that with his low system mastery, he is unable to build a character that is mechanically able to be as awesome as his vision of the character is.

So when you build a competent character, even hampered as you are by the restrictions you have, and play that character competently, you get to be awesome while his character sucks.

And instead of finding fault in his own playstyle, he is blaming you for making an "overpowered" character.

In his mind, you are cheating. He built his character for flavour, and he's resenting the fact that his method makes his character inferior. He just doesn't see it that way. To him, you are robbing him of fun by making his character look bad, even though the real issue is that his character underperforms because of the way it is built.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Oh hey, my call that this guy was a jerk was right and then some. The OP's only mistake was playing with him in the first place, but at least he corrected that.

Brookshw: Ill-tempered children (like the ninja player) can get jealous and pissy over basically nothing, including the fact that someone else has a toy and they don't. And besides, if there was something else going on, wouldn't one of the other players speak up?

[Wacky89]

You're only allowed to use animal forms?! Why are you a MoMF if you can only turn into animals?! You are doing literally the opposite of powergaming, the ninja just sucks.

When I'm going full caster im limited to animals only.

My current character has freedom to wild shape to the 10 forms I picked when I made the character


That seems somewhat suspect in so far as we don't know what the ninja's doing. Could ths ere be something else at play? Possibly, and maybe it is just a difference in expectations. Do we know that? No, we don't. It's a rare thing when someone simply complains that another has a toy unless it somehow reduces the value of their own.



I've followed it, yes. You still haven't told me much of what the ninjas doing really. I get you haven't done much spell casting, but that's not what I asked. Telling me about two other semi obscure forms you have doesn't really answer the question either.

The Ninja was doing his invis thing and throwing a bunch of shurikens with sudden strike. The Wizard useually cast greater invis on him for the big fights.
He has felt abit useless, because we have encountered 3 monsters that were immune to sneak attack. He was allowed to buy a continious grave + vine strike ring at creation

[bekeleven]

So by 10 forms I assume you meant something like Desmodu Bat, Gorynych, Sea Drake, Octopus Tree, Nagahydra, Rukanyr, Zeugalak, Human, Crystalline Troll, and Mimic?

That's 10 of my ~20 "Tier 3 Forms" on my MoMF spreadsheet. Well, the hunting bat is T5 but same difference. I tend to use Mercury Dragons when I have to fly faster than a Gorynych. Actually, it's possible that at level 16 Rukanyr is tier 2.

[Brookshw]

The Ninja was doing his invis thing and throwing a bunch of shurikens with sudden strike. The Wizard useually cast greater invis on him for the big fights.
He has felt abit useless, because we have encountered 3 monsters that were immune to sneak attack. He was allowed to buy a continious grave + vine strike ring at creation

That's useful to know. Is the group routinely against things immune to his trick and are the things you're up against actually susceptible to grave/vine strike? It may very well be you're caught in a crossfire between him and the DM and this is more of an encounter design issue. How about out of combat, is everyone getting equal turn to do things?

[Rubik]

That's useful to know. Is the group routinely against things immune to his trick and are the things you're up against actually susceptible to grave/vine strike? It may very well be you're caught in a crossfire between him and the DM and this is more of an encounter design issue. How about out of combat, is everyone getting equal turn to do things?While trying to figure out the reason for him feeling useless is commendable (at the very least to prevent the DM from doing so on accident in future games), it certainly isn't worth doing so to try to get the hissy fit-throwing player back again. Anyone who acts like that shouldn't be welcome at any table, at any time, anywhere.

[Wacky89]

Oh hey, my call that this guy was a jerk was right and then some. The OP's only mistake was playing with him in the first place, but at least he corrected that.

Brookshw: Ill-tempered children (like the ninja player) can get jealous and pissy over basically nothing, including the fact that someone else has a toy and they don't. And besides, if there was something else going on, wouldn't one of the other players speak up?

He insisted that no1 else said anything because they didnt have the balls

[Wacky89]

So by 10 forms I assume you meant something like Desmodu Bat, Gorynych, Sea Drake, Octopus Tree, Nagahydra, Rukanyr, Zeugalak, Human, Crystalline Troll, and Mimic?

That's 10 of my ~20 "Tier 3 Forms" on my MoMF spreadsheet. Well, the hunting bat is T5 but same difference. I tend to use Mercury Dragons when I have to fly faster than a Gorynych. Actually, it's possible that at level 16 Rukanyr is tier 2.

My 10 forms were:
gorynych, verdant prince (travel), arcane ooze (immunity to magic), leechwalker (immune to ability drain, massive damage and subdual damage), sun giant (Strong, the form I used my quarterstaff), rimefire eilodon (Ice/Snow glide), minotaur, greathorn (Earthglide), Will-o-wisp (invis), roc(For Later, flying the party places if teleportation wasnt an option), Siege Beetle (For Later, beefy, good grappler), Elder Redcap(For Later, travelform for lvl 20).
The gm prefered that I didnt use FF, LoM and some other books.

[Wacky89]

That's useful to know. Is the group routinely against things immune to his trick and are the things you're up against actually susceptible to grave/vine strike? It may very well be you're caught in a crossfire between him and the DM and this is more of an encounter design issue. How about out of combat, is everyone getting equal turn to do things?

The GM has literally planned out the campaign pre character creation, he was told that there were gonna be encounters where they were immune to sudden strike.
He made the character anyway, there has been 3 encounters out of maybe 10 where they were immune to his sudden strike. We met a single plant, 2 undead encounters, some humanoid and some misc. other types of encounters.

[Vogonjeltz]

He can speak as a bat, actually, due to shifter's speech from master of many forms. As for the DM's call thing, that's really no more true here than it would be for a DM altering any rule. Familiarity, to all indications, can be acquired through a reasonably simple knowledge roll.

Skipped over that power. That it is the DMs call is absolutely true, Druids can only wild shape into forms they are familiar with. The DM and only the DM is qualified to determine what a character is familiar with. Not altering a rule, following it.

[Brookshw]

While trying to figure out the reason for him feeling useless is commendable (at the very least to prevent the DM from doing so on accident in future games), it certainly isn't worth doing so to try to get the hissy fit-throwing player back again. Anyone who acts like that shouldn't be welcome at any table, at any time, anywhere.

That's quite possible, but since the situation was posed for consideration I assume we're trying to find the constructive solution that let's the group continue, if the situation already is one where it's time to pull stakes or however you'd like to phrase it, then I'm not sure what we're expected to actually contribute here. I suppose it could just be seeking confirmation but even to offer that I'd like more information that what was presented. Two sides to every story so to speak, and baring the otherside, at least a better understanding of context.

[eggynack]

Skipped over that power. That it is the DMs call is absolutely true, Druids can only wild shape into forms they are familiar with. The DM and only the DM is qualified to determine what a character is familiar with. Not altering a rule, following it.
Not really. The rules compendium standard for familiarity states that the creature chosen, "Must be that of an animal the druid has seen or could reasonably know about." Knowing about a creature is an intrinsically low standard, and one met by anyone capable of identifying said creature. Thus, basic identification rolls. The rule doesn't say that it must be a creature you could reasonably know everything about, after all.

[Eldest]

Polymorph/Shapechange was actually banned.
I was allowed to wild shape as a caster if I only used animals.

The ninja was planning to change to a blaster sorcerer, but he just ragequit the campaign.
Saying and I quote
"****ing powerplayers"
"Im sick of Ryn being 2nd classes by Jaeger(My character in a different campaign) as well too"
"Thank you for costing me the best 2 DM's I've ever had"
"you ********** *****"

I kinda feel bad, seems like I'm a really bad guy for playing the game how I want to play it.

Ya, don't feel sad about somebody throwing a tantrum. I mean, it's a pity it happened instead of resolving it nicely, but he's gone now, and it is certainly not on you that he chose to lash out instead of talking through the issue.

[prufock]

The correct response when someone calls you a powergamer is to smile and say "Thanks!"

[chaos_redefined]

I kinda feel bad, seems like I'm a really bad guy for playing the game how I want to play it.

Don't. If you didn't play the game the way you want to play it, then you would enjoy the game less. You did not make any complaints about, nor have you shown any problems with, the way he played the game. You did nothing to directly influence how much fun he was having in the game (i.e. you didn't stab him in his sleep or anything like that). He is complaining that someone is having fun doing something that he doesn't have fun doing. Why is that your problem?

For a comparison, this is like if you bought an ice cream, and he got up you for having ice cream because now he can't enjoy his apple.

[darksolitaire]

As a general guideline, it's the DM who polices character sheets for excessive power gaming, not other players. Ninja player should have expressed his opinion openly, and if the DM didn't see the need to interfere, suck it up. Rage quitting and throwing insults doesn't net him any sympathy. :smallyuk:

[Vogonjeltz]

"Must be that of an animal the druid has seen or could reasonably know about."

Not that bringing up such a controversial source as the RC helps your case, but this source makes pretty definitively a DM call. The event eiter happens in game (DM makes it happen), or it is part of the characters backstory. Roleplaying fluff isn't a license to print money by the players and is regulated by the DM as well.

Knowledge checks are to see if, when you encounter/hear about an unknown creature you can identify it. That doesn't mean the Druid has seen them before, nor does it mean they necessarily reasonably know about it. These questions hinge directly upon the characters background and origin, not on a skill check.


Ultimately the decision on how (or if) to divide player knowledge from character knowledge must be made between the players and the DM. ... If in doubt, ask your DM how he or she prefers to handle such situations.

DM call, all the way. If you really want to pursue this question, we can start a new thread devoted to it.


Ya, don't feel sad about somebody throwing a tantrum. I mean, it's a pity it happened instead of resolving it nicely, but he's gone now, and it is certainly not on you that he chose to lash out instead of talking through the issue.

Yeah, I think the surface issue is this statement: "Im sick of Ryn being 2nd classes by Jaeger(My character in a different campaign) as well too".
This player indicated he wanted to shine but always either felt overshadowed by Wacky89's characters or that they were being placed into situations where his character was at an automatic disadvantage. See: 3 monsters that were immune to sneak attack.

I'd definitely prefer to talk it out and try to salvage a player. Everyone has bad days, and if he'd been letting this apparent frustration fester without taking the time to really discuss it with the DM and/or Wacky89, I can see how it might boil over into a verbal outburst.


For a comparison, this is like if you bought an ice cream, and he got up you for having ice cream because now he can't enjoy his apple.

Er, this is not a useful analogy because it is making a value judgment based on personal preference. Something more analogous to this situation would be: "I bought this scalpel for precision and you bought a sledgehammer for hitting power and now I'm mad that your sledgehammer is better at breaking through this oak door." That's better as an analogy because it reflects the utility issue being described, not personal preference.

[eggynack]

Not that bringing up such a controversial source as the RC helps your case, but this source makes pretty definitively a DM call. The event eiter happens in game (DM makes it happen), or it is part of the characters backstory. Roleplaying fluff isn't a license to print money by the players and is regulated by the DM as well.

Knowledge checks are to see if, when you encounter/hear about an unknown creature you can identify it. That doesn't mean the Druid has seen them before, nor does it mean they necessarily reasonably know about it. These questions hinge directly upon the characters background and origin, not on a skill check.
If you know about a creature, then you can become it. If you can identify a creature, then you know about it. If you can pass a DC 10+HD knowledge check, then you can identify it. Thus, if you can pass a DC 10+HD knowledge check, you can become the creature. It is an impossible thing to identify a completely unknown creature.

[Greenish]

Since when has Rules Compendium been a "controversial source"?

[Oddman80]

...It is an impossible thing to identify a completely unknown creature.

But scientists do that all the time. <Big Grin>

[Brookshw]

Since when has Rules Compendium been a "controversial source"?

Curmudgeon has demonstrated this many, many times.

[Anlashok]

Since when has Rules Compendium been a "controversial source"?

A lot of CharOp types have arbitrarily deemed the book to be meaningless under the assumption Wizards of the Coast likes to lie to its consumers about its own products.

[bekeleven]

Since when has Rules Compendium been a "controversial source"?

Basically, after they printed the RC, they reprinted the new "premium" core books, which incorporate all updated errata as well as a handful of new changes into their book texts. These books contain the standard PHB/MM/DMG text announcing themselves as primary sources for their respective areas (classes, skills, spells, etc for PHB; magical items, planes, etc for DMG; EX, SU, SP abilities, monster rules, etc. for MM).

Thus, not only does the RC text saying that it "supercedes all preexisting sources" contradict the text in the original Core 3 saying that they overrule all other books in their respective areas, but it also fails to address the primary sourcedom of the premium core that were published after it. And nearly everything that the RC changed about core mechanics were not reflected in the premium core.

[Greenish]

I know the argument that RC isn't technically RAW, but I don't see how that'd make its contents somehow "controversial".

[bekeleven]

I know the argument that RC isn't technically RAW, but I don't see how that'd make its contents somehow "controversial".

Parts of the RC that contradict parts of the premium core are controversial.

[Vogonjeltz]

I know the argument that RC isn't technically RAW, but I don't see how that'd make its contents somehow "controversial".

controversy - noun. disagreement, typically when prolonged, public, and heated.

The more we argue about it, the more controversial it becomes. Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.


If you know about a creature, then you can become it.

I'd say yes, based on the 3.5 premium PHB. What's interesting is that this differs from the SRD20 text: "The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with." Which is more restrictive. At any rate, I agree we should discuss the 3.5 criteria. Seen OR Could Know About.


If you can identify a creature, then you know about it.

In the strictest sense, no. Knowing about a creature is substantially more information than knowing of a creature. Secondly, the knowledge skill caveats that use of the skill to several degrees:

"In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster."

Once again, it's still the DMs call if you have or haven't heard of a monster before. How much you know about a monster the DM has determined you know of (either through having it appear in game or agreeing your characters would have heard of it out of game) is what the roll determines. It's completely useless if your characters are predetermined by the DM to have no knowledge of the creature.

[Deadline]

controversy - noun. disagreement, typically when prolonged, public, and heated.

The more we argue about it, the more controversial it becomes. Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The problem with using that definition is that "controversy" is taken by many to mean that there is legitimate room for doubt on both sides.

By the definition you have stated, an angry bum disagreeing loudly with a stop sign creates "controversy", thereby creating legitimate doubt.

[Brookshw]

The problem with using that definition is that "controversy" is taken by many to mean that there is legitimate room for doubt on both sides.

By the definition you have stated, an angry bum disagreeing loudly with a stop sign creates "controversy", thereby creating legitimate doubt.

Eh, if we can argue about it, it's controvertial. And boy can we argue about anything :smallwink:

[Deadline]

Eh, if we can argue about it, it's controvertial. And boy can we argue about anything :smallwink:

My gripe is more with the fact that people take the existence of a "controversy" as permission to remain ignorant on the subject matter. And then get all smug about it: "I was under the impression that was a matter that was still up for debate, given the controversy and all."

*eye-roll* Yes, this incredibly well researched thing that is backed up by lots of pesky facts is "up for debate" because some freeming nutcase wants to say the all the loud and mad words. *grumble*

Edit - That said, when arguing game rules as a hobby to pass the time on the intertubes, go nuts for donuts. :smallbiggrin:

[Karnith]

I know the argument that RC isn't technically RAW, but I don't see how that'd make its contents somehow "controversial".
There are a few rules changes in RC that were/are contentious - I find its rules on miss chances to be particularly silly, for example, and I know some players who hate the RC's take on precision damage with volleys.

[Brookshw]

My gripe is more with the fact that people take the existence of a "controversy" as permission to remain ignorant on the subject matter. And then get all smug about it: "I was under the impression that was a matter that was still up for debate, given the controversy and all."

*eye-roll* Yes, this incredibly well researched thing that is backed up by lots of pesky facts is "up for debate" because some freeming nutcase wants to say the all the loud and mad words. *grumble*

So, basically when WoTC said "This book takes precedent" and outlined for when precedent can be changed, and then contradicted itself by saying "This book takes precedent" without actually acknowledging the precedent shift in the many, many, places they've said things on this nature, including comments that specified precedent can't change in this manner, you don't think there's room for confusion or informed opinions by either side?

[Deadline]

So, basically when WoTC said "This book takes precedent" and outlined for when precedent can be changed, and then contradicted itself by saying "This book takes precedent" without actually acknowledging the precedent shift in the many, many, places they've said things on this nature, including comments that specified precedent can't change in this manner, you don't think there's room for confusion or informed opinions by either side?

Oh, there is absolutely room in this case. I took objection to the definition that Vogonjeltz tossed out there as if it was sufficient. That said, particularly when talking about D&D rules, there are some areas where a consensus is probably just going to be impossible to reach. :smalltongue:

[Brookshw]

Oh, there is absolutely room in this case. I took objection to the definition that Vogonjeltz tossed out there as if it was sufficient. That said, particularly when talking about D&D rules, there are some areas where a consensus is probably just going to be impossible to reach. :smalltongue:

Ah, gotcha! Wasn't sure where you were going with it. WoTC really did do a number on itself with the primacy rules, I really have to chuckle about it.

[Vogonjeltz]

Oh, there is absolutely room in this case. I took objection to the definition that Vogonjeltz tossed out there as if it was sufficient. That said, particularly when talking about D&D rules, there are some areas where a consensus is probably just going to be impossible to reach. :smalltongue:

So you are complaining that I didn't make a value judgment about the controversy?

Ok: the RC is a poorly drafted document written by an associate editor, which likely explains why it is riddled with overt errors that are contained in neither errata nor the premium books that are chronologically the most recent rules for 3.5.

Better?

[Greenish]

I find RC fairly useful, and certainly not too objectionable. 3.5 has done far worse.

[Brookshw]

I find RC fairly useful, and certainly not too objectionable. 3.5 has done far worse.

Aye, indeed 3.5 has. Still, the primacy rules do mean the RC is pointless, no matter how useful it's been. It's WoTC stabbing themselves in the back unintentionally. If it works for you, great! Personally I'd give it primacy as well. That's not RAW though so there's definitely room for contention.

[eggynack]

In the strictest sense, no. Knowing about a creature is substantially more information than knowing of a creature.
That doesn't seem like a necessarily true thing, especially because you know at least one useful chunk of information beyond the creature's name just by meeting the initial knowledge bar.


Secondly, the knowledge skill caveats that use of the skill to several degrees: "In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster."
It might not be a perfect universal, but you're generally going to need some form of in specific to justify such a thing, like a given animal being nearly endangered. Even in that case, a druid can often match a good quantity of necessary numbers out there.