Demiplane with Timeless trait and Time Stop spell

[Barstro]

I'm trying to find some Get Out of Jail Free Cards for my current/future campaign. My Witch will have the ability to create a demiplane with the Timeless trait.

Timeless: On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. How the timeless trait affects certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane. The danger of a timeless plane is that once an individual leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging occur retroactively. If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled.

Duration 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time);
DESCRIPTION
This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature's possession.

You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.

For the first time ever, rules are not sufficiently explained to provide me with enough insight to know what will happen.

Scenario;
Fight is going poorly, so my Witch casts a spell to travel to her already prepared demiplane that is equipped with Timeless.
While there, she casts Time Stop.

By one reading, Time Stop has a "non instantaneous duration" and becomes permanent in the plane. Witch can rest up, prepare more spells, travel back, save the day (again).
By a less broken reading, Time Stop has the effect of "You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time". Making the spell permanent does not change the 1d4+1, because that is in relation to "apparent time".

Any thoughts on what the correct ruling is?

Side Note: She could easily spend some time researching other planes and find one where time passes at a rate of one day per round of "real" time and just go there in case of emergency. But that would be cheating.:smalltongue:

[Red Fel]

Any thoughts on what the correct ruling is?

The correct ruling is the broken one. Time Stop has a non-instantaneous duration. It therefore lasts until dispelled.

Note that "apparent time" in a timeless plane doesn't exist. There is no time. It doesn't pass. That's the definition of the trait.

[charcoalninja]

The correct ruling is the broken one. Time Stop has a non-instantaneous duration. It therefore lasts until dispelled.

Note that "apparent time" in a timeless plane doesn't exist. There is no time. It doesn't pass. That's the definition of the trait.

If aparant time doesn't exist in a timeless plane than casting Time Stop does nothing at all.

[Starmage21]

I'm trying to find some Get Out of Jail Free Cards for my current/future campaign. My Witch will have the ability to create a demiplane with the Timeless trait.

Timeless: On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. How the timeless trait affects certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane. The danger of a timeless plane is that once an individual leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging occur retroactively. If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled.

Duration 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time);
DESCRIPTION
This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature's possession.

You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.

For the first time ever, rules are not sufficiently explained to provide me with enough insight to know what will happen.

Scenario;
Fight is going poorly, so my Witch casts a spell to travel to her already prepared demiplane that is equipped with Timeless.
While there, she casts Time Stop.

By one reading, Time Stop has a "non instantaneous duration" and becomes permanent in the plane. Witch can rest up, prepare more spells, travel back, save the day (again).
By a less broken reading, Time Stop has the effect of "You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time". Making the spell permanent does not change the 1d4+1, because that is in relation to "apparent time".

Any thoughts on what the correct ruling is?

Side Note: She could easily spend some time researching other planes and find one where time passes at a rate of one day per round of "real" time and just go there in case of emergency. But that would be cheating.:smalltongue:

The sane option is to have Time Stop function normally. It doesnt affect others, it speeds the caster up. The fact that it has an area just means that you're limited to that area while the spell is active.

In fact, other than its name, Time Stop doesn't mention altering the flow of time at all. Its uber Haste, and that is all.

[Barstro]

The sane option is to have Time Stop function normally. It doesnt affect others, it speeds the caster up. The fact that it has an area just means that you're limited to that area while the spell is active.

In fact, other than its name, Time Stop doesn't mention altering the flow of time at all. Its uber Haste, and that is all.

That conclusion ignores all the words at issue as is still a vague conclusion. Does "function normally" mean it is, in fact, affected by Timeless (due to having a duration) and allows infinite rounds, or just the 1d4+1? The spell has no "area", so I do not understand that sentence in the slightest.

While the comparison to Haste is interesting, it's not really the same thing.
Haste lasts for rounds per level.
Time Stop does not actually last any time (and, IMO, should have been called "instant"). It allows the caster to act for 1d4+1 rounds while everyone else is acting for one round.

The only part of Time Stop that makes it not seem instant is the dicta language that time doesn't actually stop for anyone else, the caster is sped up and they appear to be moving slowly.

[Pan151]

The only part of Time Stop that makes it not seem instant is the dicta language that time doesn't actually stop for anyone else, the caster is sped up and they appear to be moving slowly.

Which doesn't mean much either. Instantaneous does not mean literally 0.00000... seconds, it just means too fast for any meaningful interaction to occur.

[Extra Anchovies]

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds.

Time Stop functions as normal. It doesn't actually ever manipulate time, so it's unaffected by temporal planar traits. You get 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time.

[Spore]

If you were my player and I were your DM I wouldn't give you spells and consider you rested since time needs to flow for your mortal body to rest up.

[Barstro]

Which doesn't mean much either. Instantaneous does not mean literally 0.00000... seconds, it just means too fast for any meaningful interaction to occur.

True, but "instantaneous" would mean that it is unaffected by Timeless feature.

[Barstro]

Time Stop functions as normal. It doesn't actually ever manipulate time, so it's unaffected by temporal planar traits. You get 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time.

"manipulating time" is not a requirement for Timeless to have an effect. Having a duration is what causes Timeless to have an effect. By language of the spell, it lasts for 1d4+1 rounds over the course of a round.

[Barstro]

If you were my player and I were your DM I wouldn't give you spells and consider you rested since time needs to flow for your mortal body to rest up.

I like this argument.

[Starmage21]

That conclusion ignores all the words at issue as is still a vague conclusion. Does "function normally" mean it is, in fact, affected by Timeless (due to having a duration) and allows infinite rounds, or just the 1d4+1? The spell has no "area", so I do not understand that sentence in the slightest.

While the comparison to Haste is interesting, it's not really the same thing.
Haste lasts for rounds per level.
Time Stop does not actually last any time (and, IMO, should have been called "instant"). It allows the caster to act for 1d4+1 rounds while everyone else is acting for one round.

The only part of Time Stop that makes it not seem instant is the dicta language that time doesn't actually stop for anyone else, the caster is sped up and they appear to be moving slowly.

I think you're thinking too hard about this. Cast Time Stop, get 1d4+1 combat rounds to do something, while everyone else gets their normal 1 afterwards.

If you really wanna wrack your brain on something: consider Spell Stowaway: Time Stop.

[Barstro]

I think you're thinking too hard about this. Cast Time Stop, get 1d4+1 combat rounds to do something, while everyone else gets their normal 1 afterwards.
I get that. But you are missing the questionable step.

1) Everyone is in a fight on the material plane
2) I cast Time Stop
3) I cast one of my spells so I get go to my demiplane with Timeless trait
4) I cast Time Stop again on the plane, if necessary (possibly effected by Timeless)
5) ???
6) Go back to material plane for remainder of 1d4+1 rounds

How much BS can be done in step 5 while everyone one else is still on the same round when I meet up with them again?


If you really wanna wrack your brain on something: consider Spell Stowaway: Time Stop.
Is that on the Pathfinder SRD? I could not find it.

[Starmage21]

I get that. But you are missing the questionable step.

1) Everyone is in a fight on the material plane
2) I cast Time Stop
3) I cast one of my spells so I get go to my demiplane with Timeless trait
4) I cast Time Stop again on the plane, if necessary (possibly effected by Timeless)
5) ???
6) Go back to material plane for remainder of 1d4+1 rounds

How much BS can be done in step 5 while everyone one else is still on the same round when I meet up with them again?


Is that on the Pathfinder SRD? I could not find it.

No, its an Epic Feat in the 3.5 SRD.

Arguments go both ways, with no definitive answer because the text of Time Stop is too vague. Erring on the side of less cheesy shenanigans means you get 1d4+1 and then 1d4+1 rounds to use to buff/escape/summon allies according to your scenario.

I argue Time Stop doesnt manipulate time at all. Its an instantaneous self-buff that is similar to a super-Haste. The duration isnt 1d4+1 rounds, its 1d4+1 extra turns you get in combat because you're just that fast. Its just called Time Stop because that is what it looks like to the caster.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yeah, the way the word "time" is generally used in the game doesn't apply to "time stop." Apparent rounds =/= rounds, and time is measured in rounds. So time stop gives you something/manipulates something, but it isn't time. So I'd rule no interaction with timeless.

[Gullintanni]

The sane option is to have Time Stop function normally. It doesnt affect others, it speeds the caster up. The fact that it has an area just means that you're limited to that area while the spell is active.

In fact, other than its name, Time Stop doesn't mention altering the flow of time at all. Its uber Haste, and that is all.

Thing is, by this logic, given that the duration of Time Stop is non-instantaneous, and it just speeds you up, then it should function exactly the same way Haste functions on a timeless plane. Which means that Time Stop continues indefinitely until dispelled.

In a more RAI interpretation of the spell, Time Stop has an instantaneous effect. It accelerates you to the point where you can make up to five rounds worth of actions in a single round. Since (apparent time) is not a defined game term, then the duration of the spell is still, by RAW, 1d4+1 rounds. This is absolutely one of those dysfunctional rules interactions.

One interpretation of the rules that I like is that when cast in a Timeless Plane, Time Stop continues indefinitely...but still only grants you 1d4+1 rounds in which to act. At that point, the spell should normally end and whatever actions you've taken resolve. But since the spell never ends, you remain accelerated and your actions never resolve. Having spent all your actions, and with Dispels//Dysjunctions not resolving until the spell's end, you remain permanently trapped, forever waiting in a state of ultimate speed.

[Barstro]

I agree with the above that RAI should trump in this case, and that Time Stop is instantaneous. Therefore, it is not effected by Timeless the way Haste is. It still only allows for 1d4+1 rounds, not many hours hours in which to replenish spells.

I will look for other shenanigans.