Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR 30 [Archive]

Shining Wrath

2014-10-09, 10:45 AM

Title says it all. We have a long debate going on here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374534-So-the-tarrasque-is-even-weaker-than-before) about various ways for beating Big T.

Without repeating a several hundred post series of arguments, there are ways to defeat a Tarrasque that are feasible at levels lower than 20, to say nothing of 30. Most of them rely upon flight or ranged attack + kite.

My question, then, is what would a Tarrasque look like if it really truly was CR 30?

Design desiderata:

Add as little as possible. The IKEA Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?20160-The-Ikea-Tarrasque-Version-2-0) is right out. Let us show tasteful restraint.
Stay as close as possible to the essence of Big T. The idea of a primal force of nature awakening from centuries of slumber and wreaking near-mindless physical havoc should be retained. While a Tarrasque with CHA=30 and 30 levels of Sorcerer is hilarious, it's not really Big T.

Constraints on the proposed ways of beating the Tarrasque are perhaps necessary to inform our design, so let me list some.

The chances of casting a ritual successfully if a Concentration check is required, even given 95% chance of passing it each round, are approximately one in 25 trillion. Therefore, you cannot perform rituals while riding at any pace faster than a walk, or riding a flying creature at all; nor can you perform a ritual while evading attacks from the Tarrasque, even if you are somehow immune to them. 50' of raging reptile is a distraction no matter what abjurations surround you.
The Tarrasque has never been defeated in this world; as spec'd in the MM, it is not immortal and does not regenerate, so if it had ever been defeated, it would no longer exist. Therefore, no lore check or knowledge check can reveal how to defeat it. What you'll get from such checks is that it reflects spells and is apparently immune to weapons.

Proposed upgrades to the Tarrasque that might make it CR 30, each one separate.

It can eat anything that's organic. Trees, bulettes, any dragon dumb enough to be caught, you name it. When it eats, it recovers lost HP at a rate of one HP per ten pounds of organic matter. A Tarrasque that seizes and devours a medium creature regains fifteen or twenty HP. A Tarrasque that eats an oak tree regains a hundred or more, although this may require more than one round - DM ruling as to how much a tree weighs and the time needed to treat it like a celery stick.
The Frightful Presence becomes larger and more persistent. If you fail your save you must flee for one minute; when you return, you must save again, and will flee again if you fail. Each time you fail and flee the DC increases by 1. The radius of the FP extends 600' in all directions.
Like giants, the Tarrasque is skilled at throwing boulders, and adds its strength modifier and proficiency to ranged attacks. It can throw anything weighing up to and including one ton

EDIT:

This may not be enough to deserve CR 30, but I will throw it out there.

As a Legendary Action, the Tarrasque can Rampage. When the Tarrasque rampages, it destroys anything near it - dirt, trees, rocks, buildings. This raises a cloud of dust and debris granting the Tarrasque 50% cover. The Tarrasque can only Rampage in response to an attack that actually damages it.

Ramshack

2014-10-09, 10:56 AM

Title says it all. We have a long debate going on here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374534-So-the-tarrasque-is-even-weaker-than-before) about various ways for beating Big T.

Without repeating a several hundred post series of arguments, there are ways to defeat a Tarrasque that are feasible at levels lower than 20, to say nothing of 30. Most of them rely upon flight or ranged attack + kite.

My question, then, is what would a Tarrasque look like if it really truly was CR 30?

Design desiderata:

Add as little as possible. The IKEA Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?20160-The-Ikea-Tarrasque-Version-2-0) is right out. Let us show tasteful restraint.
Stay as close as possible to the essence of Big T. The idea of a primal force of nature awakening from centuries of slumber and wreaking near-mindless physical havoc should be retained. While a Tarrasque with CHA=30 and 30 levels of Sorcerer is hilarious, but it's not really Big T.

Constraints on the proposed ways of beating the Tarrasque are perhaps necessary to inform our design, so let me list some.

The chances of casting a ritual successfully if a Concentration check is required, even given 95% chance of passing it each round, are approximately one in 25 trillion. Therefore, you cannot perform rituals while riding at any pace faster than a walk, or riding a flying creature at all; nor can you perform a ritual while evading attacks from the Tarrasque, even if you are somehow immune to them. 50' of raging reptile is a distraction no matter what abjurations surround you.
The Tarrasque has never been defeated in this world; it is, as spec'd in the MM, it is not immortal and does not regenerate, so if it had ever been defeated, it would no longer exist. Therefore, no lore check or knowledge check can reveal how to defeat it. What you'll get from such checks is that it reflects spells and is apparently immune to weapons.

Proposed upgrades to the Tarrasque that might make it CR 30, each one separate.

It can eat anything that's organic. Trees, bulettes, any dragon dumb enough to be caught, you name it. When it eats, it recovers lost HP at a rate of one HP per ten pounds of organic matter. A Tarrasque that seizes and devours a medium creature regains fifteen or twenty HP. A Tarrasque that eats an oak tree regains a hundred or more, although this may require more than one round - DM ruling as to how much a tree weighs and the time needed to treat it like a celery stick.
The Frightful Presence becomes larger and more persistent. If you fail your save you must flee for one minute; when you return, you must save again, and will flee again if you fail. Each time you fail and flee the DC increases by 1. The radius of the FP extends 600' in all directions.
Like giants, the Tarrasque is skilled at throwing boulders, and adds its strength modifier and proficiency to ranged attacks. It can throw anything weighing up to and including one ton

Easiest thing would be to add quills he can fire from range from his hide.

Big T can Fire Quills from His Hide as a Legendary Action or Attack Action. Quills can attack creatures up to 300 feat away or up to 1200 with disadvantage. The Terrasque Quills are the size of small ballista bolts and deal 2d6 + 10 damage +19 to hit.

Perhaps consider letting him fire quills similar to the ranger's volley ability as well.

Shining Wrath

2014-10-09, 11:04 AM

Easiest thing would be to add quills he can fire from range from his hide.

Big T can Fire Quills from His Hide as a Legendary Action or Attack Action. Quills can attack creatures up to 300 feat away or up to 1200 with disadvantage. The Terrasque Quills are the size of small ballista bolts and deal 2d6 + 10 damage +19 to hit.

Perhaps consider letting him fire quills similar to the ranger's volley ability as well.

I dislike this for two reasons:
1) Having an infinite supply of quills makes him sort-of magical rather than physical. Where do all these quills come from?
2) He now looks like a porcupine or manticore, rather than like Big T

However, the idea of grabbing handfuls (pawfuls?) of stuff and making multiple attacks with a single throw is OK.

Steel Mirror

2014-10-09, 11:07 AM

Ramshack

2014-10-09, 11:21 AM

I dislike this for two reasons:
1) Having an infinite supply of quills makes him sort-of magical rather than physical. Where do all these quills come from?
2) He now looks like a porcupine or manticore, rather than like Big T

However, the idea of grabbing handfuls (pawfuls?) of stuff and making multiple attacks with a single throw is OK.

I was imaging the quills more beneath the skin and by flexing his massive body he could force them out of predefined pores / slits / slots whatever the anatomically correct term is.

Though for more thematic flair you could just give him two just cannons on his back via Blastoise ;)

Shining Wrath

2014-10-09, 11:30 AM

I was imaging the quills more beneath the skin and by flexing his massive body he could force them out of predefined pores / slits / slots whatever the anatomically correct term is.

Though for more thematic flair you could just give him two just cannons on his back via Blastoise ;)

Or a Godzilla like breath weapon - but again, I'm trying to keep the "tears things apart with bare hands" feel.

My preferred solution is to give him a burrow speed of say 40 feet, plus regeneration. Doesn't even need to be that high, 5 or 10 would probably do. Then if anyone tried the kiting/flying strategy on him, he could burrow and force them to descend into his burrows to take him down, or allow him to tunnel to his next populated destination and then lay waste to it.

It's simple, doesn't mess with his 'feel' much at all (arguably returns it a bit to its roots), and I think it would disqualify the most ridiculous low level tarrasque-kill strategies.

You could probably get away with only regeneration - if you're relying on spamming Sacred Flame, or firing arrows with a low probability of hit per round regeneration of 10 HP / round would make things difficult, and 20 HP / round makes things tough indeed.

The problem with regeneration is that now you've got an immortal Tarrasque unless the party not only reduces Big T to 0, but keeps on hitting his fallen body until he's at -650. That's dozens of rounds of beating a dead Tarrasque.

Ramshack

2014-10-09, 11:31 AM

Or a Godzilla like breath weapon - but again, I'm trying to keep the "tears things apart with bare hands" feel.

You're really only left with 2 choices then, He has to threaten at range or defend at range.

Sicne you want his hand and claws only you've limited yourself to he throws objects. Which is a pain from a DM stance, how big are the objects what do they weigh what's an appropriate damage amount, how far can he throw x pounds etc.

From an encounter level It's easier say he throws x, fires x, shoots x, sprays x for a set range and damage.

As for defense you have to protect him from the ranged kitey flying maneuvers.

He can roll into a ball so only his protective carapace is exposed while doing this his AC increased by 5 etc and maybe other stats

I liked the burrow and regenerate idea

He slams his feet/claws to the ground or together creating the windwall effect, he can do this as a legendary action and lasts until his next turn. or other such creative defenses

archaeo

2014-10-09, 11:33 AM

Shining Wrath

2014-10-09, 11:40 AM

You're really only left with 2 choices then, He has to threaten at range or defend at range.

Sicne you want his hand and claws only you've limited yourself to he throws objects. Which is a pain from a DM stance, how big are the objects what do they weigh what's an appropriate damage amount, how far can he throw x pounds etc.

From an encounter level It's easier say he throws x, fires x, shoots x, sprays x for a set range and damage.

As for defense you have to protect him from the ranged kitey flying maneuvers.

He can roll into a ball so only his protective carapace is exposed while doing this his AC increased by 5 etc and maybe other stats

I liked the burrow and regenerate idea

He slams his feet/claws to the ground or together creating the windwall effect, he can do this as a legendary action and lasts until his next turn. or other such creative defenses

I thought the Fear radius was an effective defense against poking with ranged weapons - you have to keep coming back, you get off a few shots and then fear kicks in again. Although I don't like the idea that our party of Heroes keeps fleeing in fear, this *is* supposed to be the most fearsome creature on the Prime Material.

Your Legendary Action that creates Wind Wall is a good idea - but that means the Tarrasque is noticing / caring about these little pin pricks. It's still a good thought, though.

Steel Mirror

2014-10-09, 11:41 AM

The problem with regeneration is that now you've got an immortal Tarrasque unless the party not only reduces Big T to 0, but keeps on hitting his fallen body until he's at -650. That's dozens of rounds of beating a dead Tarrasque.There are a couple ways to deal with that one, but my preference is to have him be vulnerable to a coup-de-grace that meets certain criteria. Ideally, you could supply a list of possible criteria from which the DM could choose one that best suits his game, or even invent his own. The list might look like:

Must be struck in a final blow by the ancient blade of Lady Cymnea, who gave her life to stop the tarrasque's advance 600 years ago and wounded it unto death before expiring herself.
Must be beheaded and burned on a pyre of blessed oak wood, the holy tree of the god of nature who swore ancient enmity against the tarrasque and longs to see it slain for good.
The tarrasque cannot be wholly slain, but if it is rendered unconscious, its heart can be drawn out and encased in a coffin of cold-forged iron, which will prevent it from rising again so long as its bones and its heart are never allowed to reunite.
If defeated, it can be finally laid to rest by scattering soil from a far-away blasted desert across its supine body. This distant wasteland is the place where it first rose to plague the world, and interring it beneath that same earth will allow it to finally rest.

Since the DM gets to choose from the list, that stops players from reading the MM and assuming that they know how to defeat the big T. It also lets you make defeating him into a whole quest and adventure instead of just a single fight. You don't just have to take down the unstoppable engine of destruction, you have to research its origins and determine what force will stop him for good, all while the clock is ticking and he is approaching his next target.

Shining Wrath

2014-10-09, 11:51 AM

I tend to think "CR 30" has more to do with the numbers in the statblock. Given that I agree with Steel Mirror that a burrow speed would take care of most issues, I'd just brush it with a very light touch of RAI. The Siege Monster feature and the ridiculous 30 Str just implies to me that it can pretty much open up anything at its leisure. The DMG will probably have more rules about the AC/HP of objects, but the big T's stats make it "burrow" at the speed of plot as far as I'm concerned.

If you're still not satisfied, instead of house ruling the Tarrasque, place it under the control of your BBEG. An evil spellcaster in a position to buff the Tarrasque can really ruin the PCs' day.

In the other thread someone mentioned evil druids casting Awaken and then healing Big T. Imagine an intelligent Tarrasque carefully considering how to deal with the pesky riders - e.g., uproot a tree and as you fly over it leaps up and uses the tree as a flyswatter. :smalleek:

Burrow is almost TOO good. How does the party keep the Tarrasque from destroying the city if it can burrow under the city, pop up, drop down, burrow some more - pops up right in the middle of the palace, inside the temple of Pelor, under the city walls. The party is now playing whack-a-mole with the Mole From Hell.

Shining Wrath

2014-10-09, 11:57 AM

There are a couple ways to deal with that one, but my preference is to have him be vulnerable to a coup-de-grace that meets certain criteria. Ideally, you could supply a list of possible criteria from which the DM could choose one that best suits his game, or even invent his own. The list might look like:

Must be struck in a final blow by the ancient blade of Lady Cymnea, who gave her life to stop the tarrasque's advance 600 years ago and wounded it unto death before expiring herself.
Must be beheaded and burned on a pyre of blessed oak wood, the holy tree of the god of nature who swore ancient enmity against the tarrasque and longs to see it slain for good.
The tarrasque cannot be wholly slain, but if it is rendered unconscious, its heart can be drawn out and encased in a coffin of cold-forged iron, which will prevent it from rising again so long as its bones and its heart are never allowed to reunite.
If defeated, it can be finally laid to rest by scattering soil from a far-away blasted desert across its supine body. This distant wasteland is the place where it first rose to plague the world, and interring it beneath that same earth will allow it to finally rest.

Since the DM gets to choose from the list, that stops players from reading the MM and assuming that they know how to defeat the big T. It also lets you make defeating him into a whole quest and adventure instead of just a single fight. You don't just have to take down the unstoppable engine of destruction, you have to research its origins and determine what force will stop him for good, all while the clock is ticking and he is approaching his next target.

I like this approach; shutting down the Tarrasque's regeneration is a bit more complicated than dousing a troll in oil. I don't like the idea that the Tarrasque has been defeated before, because that allows munchkins to say "I take 20 on my Intelligence(History) check in the city library! How can the Tarrasque be defeated?".

Party defeats Tarrasque; Tarrasque gets up after a few minutes, roars, and runs away to recuperate; party realizes they need more information, and a quest to learn how you keep this thing down ensues.

Steel Mirror

2014-10-09, 11:59 AM

Burrow is almost TOO good. How does the party keep the Tarrasque from destroying the city if it can burrow under the city, pop up, drop down, burrow some more - pops up right in the middle of the palace, inside the temple of Pelor, under the city walls. The party is now playing whack-a-mole with the Mole From Hell.Ideally, I'd like for the big T to be able to draw the party in to an underground battle, which neutralizes flight and ranged attack advantages that they may have. If they aren't resorting to such tactics, though, and actually are willing to engage it in melee even on the surface, to my mind there would be no need for him to burrow. The tarrasque (IMO) is a creature that thinks in straight lines. If nothing around it is moving, it heads for the nearest place where it can cause some havoc. If something is attacking it (or just existing within eyesight of it), it tears it apart. Only if something is attacking it and it has no way to reach the annoying bastards does it burrow.

I don't like the idea that the Tarrasque has been defeated before, because that allows munchkins to say "I take 20 on my Intelligence(History) check in the city library! How can the Tarrasque be defeated?".Probably a good point, I might not use that one! The whole point is to make the tarrasque terrifying again, after all.

silveralen

2014-10-09, 12:01 PM

To be honest I've yet to see a single issue that isn't solved by giving him a giant style rock throw.

Realistically his stats already make most magic low impact, and melee a very dangerous game. Poking him to death is clearly the safe play, and given the Godzilla style theme that's almost certainly what the designers intended. Giving him a ranged attack just dangerous enough to threaten people who have no business fighting him fixes it so far as I see.

Ramshack

2014-10-09, 12:06 PM

Shining Wrath

2014-10-09, 12:15 PM

Ideally, I'd like for the big T to be able to draw the party in to an underground battle, which neutralizes flight and ranged attack advantages that they may have. If they aren't resorting to such tactics, though, and actually are willing to engage it in melee even on the surface, to my mind there would be no need for him to burrow. The tarrasque (IMO) is a creature that thinks in straight lines. If nothing around it is moving, it heads for the nearest place where it can cause some havoc. If something is attacking it (or just existing within eyesight of it), it tears it apart. Only if something is attacking it and it has no way to reach the annoying bastards does it burrow.

I think we've got it.

Give it a burrow speed, but the Tarrasque dislikes burrowing because the burrow speed is only 20'. The Tarrasque burrows when injured for more than 50% of base HP.

And then it takes a long rest. For a long rest, it regains 33 HP. If that doesn't get it to 50%, it takes yet another long rest.

Each long rest has a chance of turning into a centuries-long slumber. The chance depends on how much the Tarrasque ate prior to burrowing; a hungry Tarrasque is a restless Tarrasque.

The party doesn't know this. All they know is that it dug a hole and hid. If they let it go, it may pop out after recuperation. If they follow it down, though - close combat. The Tarrasque instinctively digs a winding path, with occasional vertical drops of 20' or so. When they reach the Tarrasque it will be with sightlines of much less than one round's move.

Gnomes2169

2014-10-09, 01:57 PM

You could probably get away with only regeneration - if you're relying on spamming Sacred Flame, or firing arrows with a low probability of hit per round regeneration of 10 HP / round would make things difficult, and 20 HP / round makes things tough indeed.

The problem with regeneration is that now you've got an immortal Tarrasque unless the party not only reduces Big T to 0, but keeps on hitting his fallen body until he's at -650. That's dozens of rounds of beating a dead Tarrasque.

There aren't negative hit points in 5e, however. There are only death saving throws, which you can hack through with extreme ease (a creature only gets 3, normally). So no, you don't need to sit there smacking it for dozens of rounds (unless you make it so the big T needs to fail ~40 death saving throws before kicking the bucket. In which case...), and if they spend dozens of rounds, the Terrasque will get back up after 3 successes (So basically 3 rounds, given the whole +10 con and death saving throws being DC 10...), start regenerating and then begin to murder again.

Or you could pull a troll and just say that the terrasque isn't even stunned by hitting 0 HP and only dies if you somehow negate the regeneration and it's at/ you reduce it to 0 HP. Vampires have this too, so it's not like it's unheard of.

I like this approach; shutting down the Tarrasque's regeneration is a bit more complicated than dousing a troll in oil. I don't like the idea that the Tarrasque has been defeated before, because that allows munchkins to say "I take 20 on my Intelligence(History) check in the city library! How can the Tarrasque be defeated?".

Party defeats Tarrasque; Tarrasque gets up after a few minutes, roars, and runs away to recuperate; party realizes they need more information, and a quest to learn how you keep this thing down ensues.

Just remember, taking 20 isn't a thing in 5e either. And even then, this sounds like a DC 30 check (finding something that shouldn't possibly exist), so until level 13, the odds of this working should literally be 0...

I think we've got it.

Give it a burrow speed, but the Tarrasque dislikes burrowing because the burrow speed is only 20'. The Tarrasque burrows when injured for more than 50% of base HP.

And then it takes a long rest. For a long rest, it regains 33 HP. If that doesn't get it to 50%, it takes yet another long rest.

Each long rest has a chance of turning into a centuries-long slumber. The chance depends on how much the Tarrasque ate prior to burrowing; a hungry Tarrasque is a restless Tarrasque.

The party doesn't know this. All they know is that it dug a hole and hid. If they let it go, it may pop out after recuperation. If they follow it down, though - close combat. The Tarrasque instinctively digs a winding path, with occasional vertical drops of 20' or so. When they reach the Tarrasque it will be with sightlines of much less than one round's move.

Just remember, it doesn't have to long rest to regain HP (and if it did, its HP total would be reset according to the rules). Instead it can short rest, which allows it to spend any number of its 44 1d20+10 hit dice to recover from its injuries.

Cybren

2014-10-09, 02:09 PM

I dislike this for two reasons:
1) Having an infinite supply of quills makes him sort-of magical rather than physical. Where do all these quills come from?
2) He now looks like a porcupine or manticore, rather than like Big T

However, the idea of grabbing handfuls (pawfuls?) of stuff and making multiple attacks with a single throw is OK.

how does he support himself given the square cube law? Why doesn't he take damage when he demolishes a building? What's the deal with airline food?

pwykersotz

2014-10-09, 02:18 PM

how does he support himself given the square cube law? Why doesn't he take damage when he demolishes a building? What's the deal with airline food?

He doesn't support himself, he dances on the puppet strings of the gods!
The building didn't hit his AC!
I know! Could this stuff taste any worse?

MaxWilson

2014-10-09, 02:22 PM

I agree if you make him threaten at range, the fly and kite arguments are invalid.

They're not invalid in that case, they're just non-trivial.

I really like the burrow option, combined with a willingness on the Tarrasque's part to break contact at < 50% HP.

MaxWilson

2014-10-09, 02:24 PM

So basically 3 rounds, given the whole +10 con and death saving throws being DC 10...

I thought CON bonuses didn't affect death saving throws--they are unmodified rolls unless I misremember.

charcoalninja

2014-10-09, 02:30 PM

In the other thread someone mentioned evil druids casting Awaken and then healing Big T. Imagine an intelligent Tarrasque carefully considering how to deal with the pesky riders - e.g., uproot a tree and as you fly over it leaps up and uses the tree as a flyswatter. :smalleek:

Burrow is almost TOO good. How does the party keep the Tarrasque from destroying the city if it can burrow under the city, pop up, drop down, burrow some more - pops up right in the middle of the palace, inside the temple of Pelor, under the city walls. The party is now playing whack-a-mole with the Mole From Hell.

I'm of the opinion that Big T should be able to burrow into the center of the earth and rip the planet in half so I'm in favour of the Burrow plan. I'd do all of the above. Regeneration, Burrow Speed, and Godzilla style breath weapon. Essentially a Meteor Swarm on recharge 6 IMO.

Tvtyrant

2014-10-09, 02:44 PM

In my current 5E campaign world the Tarrasque was dominated by a 20th level caster (Elven Empress) and was penned up in an underground vault until it was needed for combat. The ease at which it can be defeated by itself meant that each side in an inter-planetary war between Mindflayers and Elves ended up controlling it and using it as a weapon.

I don't think the Tarrasque needs to be a threat in a vacuum against a high level party, it can be a threat alongside its allies quite handily. The immunity to none-magical damage means everyone wants one, and its lack of ranged weapons or flying means certain lifeforms can safely be around it.

So if you did not want to have it controlled by a civilization you may find it surrounded by flying scavengers who eat the carrion it leaves behind and are territorial against other fliers. "The Beast looms like a mountain in the distance, its shadow crossing the valley and its outline illuminated by the setting sun. A throng of Wyverns circle around it, diving at the creatures that scatter from its path. The awesome maw turns towards you and lets loose a earth shaking roar as it sees its prey, the sound echoing across the valley dislodging leaves and branches as it goes. The mountain behind you shivers and shakes off a wall of earth which quickly covers the path out of the valley. The landslide shudders to a stop as the creature begins to lope towards you, wyverns in tow. You are trapped."

Shining Wrath

2014-10-09, 03:58 PM

There aren't negative hit points in 5e, however. There are only death saving throws, which you can hack through with extreme ease (a creature only gets 3, normally). So no, you don't need to sit there smacking it for dozens of rounds (unless you make it so the big T needs to fail ~40 death saving throws before kicking the bucket. In which case...), and if they spend dozens of rounds, the Terrasque will get back up after 3 successes (So basically 3 rounds, given the whole +10 con and death saving throws being DC 10...), start regenerating and then begin to murder again.

Or you could pull a troll and just say that the terrasque isn't even stunned by hitting 0 HP and only dies if you somehow negate the regeneration and it's at/ you reduce it to 0 HP. Vampires have this too, so it's not like it's unheard of.

Just remember, taking 20 isn't a thing in 5e either. And even then, this sounds like a DC 30 check (finding something that shouldn't possibly exist), so until level 13, the odds of this working should literally be 0...

Just remember, it doesn't have to long rest to regain HP (and if it did, its HP total would be reset according to the rules). Instead it can short rest, which allows it to spend any number of its 44 1d20+10 hit dice to recover from its injuries.

I don't think the Tarrasque should get the same benefit from a short rest as a PC.

how does he support himself given the square cube law? Why doesn't he take damage when he demolishes a building? What's the deal with airline food?

Square-cube: He has both a skeleton AND an exoskeleton, which also serves as armor for a monstrous win-win.
Buildings: are the buildings doing bludgeoning damage that is not magical? I believe they are.
Airline food: Airlines are lawful evil. They serve you the cheapest, least appetizing items that meet the technical definition of "meal".

Forum Explorer

2014-10-09, 03:58 PM

Honestly I'd give it an absurdly high regen. Something like 30, 40, or even 50 hp per turn. And that's it. Kite it all you want, it's healing faster then you hurt it.

Then if you reduce it to below 30% HP it retreats to go back to sleep/rampage elsewhere.

Perhaps a 5 ft per turn burrow speed would work as well.

Envyus

2014-10-09, 04:00 PM

Regeneration: The Tarrasque regenerates 30 hit points at the beginning of its turn, as long as it has 1 hit point remaining. Once per year, the Tarrasque regenerates to full hit points regardless of what state it is in. This is usually on an equinox or a solstice. Only a specifically worded wish spell can prevent this regeneration.

Spines. Ranged Weapon Attack: +19 to hit, range 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: (2d10 + 10) piercing damage

Multiattack. The tarrasque can use its Frightful Presence. It then makes five attacks: one with its bite, two with its claws, one with its horns, and one with its tail. It can use its Swallow instead of its bite. Or it can fire 3 spines.

It shoots its spines like the Pathfinder version and thus the Tarrasques weakness is solved. It's spines are much weaker then it's normal attacks and it can't use as many so it will still prefer to crush things at close range.

With these things added I doubt any level 20 party of 4 can defeat it. Let alone a Wizard trying to Kite it.

charcoalninja

2014-10-09, 06:37 PM

I also vote for it's frightful presence to be replaced with outright fear that you never become immune to.

Strill

2014-10-09, 09:18 PM

The problem with regeneration is that now you've got an immortal Tarrasque unless the party not only reduces Big T to 0, but keeps on hitting his fallen body until he's at -650. That's dozens of rounds of beating a dead Tarrasque.
Hardly. A Paladin that goes all-out on smites can pump out over 100 damage per round even without much optimization. I don't see why a party of 4-6 should have too much trouble killing it.

In the other thread someone mentioned evil druids casting Awaken and then healing Big T. Imagine an intelligent Tarrasque carefully considering how to deal with the pesky riders - e.g., uproot a tree and as you fly over it leaps up and uses the tree as a flyswatter. :smalleek:

Tarrasque with Wizard Levels (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tarrasque_with_Wizard_Levels)

melee a very dangerous game.A L20 Barbarian can easily withstand four direct hits from a tarrasque. I don't think it's all that dangerous.

Cybren

2014-10-09, 09:26 PM

Buildings: are the buildings doing bludgeoning damage that is not magical? I believe they are.

so what you're saying is he has a magical ability?

pwykersotz

2014-10-09, 09:45 PM

Tarrasque with Wizard Levels (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tarrasque_with_Wizard_Levels)

That was pretty darned epic.

Sartharina

2014-10-09, 09:55 PM

I'd give the tarrasque a few perks, since to me, the Tarrasque is a Giant Tokyo-smashing Monster.

I'm bad at phrasing things in legalese, so here's the overview:

Breath of ****you - Once per short rest, the tarrasque can unleash a devastating beam of damage up in a line 600' long and 15' wide. Anything within the beam takes (Reasonably high amount of Damage for a CR 30 beast), or half on a DC 17 Dexterity save. Any time within the round after unleashing the beam, the tarrasque can, as a Legendary Action, sweep the beam in up to a 150 degree arc. (Inspired by Godzilla's Nuclear Breath, and given a boost for drama... though it's probably unnecessary to be able to sweep it.)

Antimagic Pulse - As an action once per short rest, the Tarrasque can unleash a 150' radius pulse of antimagic energy that dispels and disrupts all ongoing magical effects. (Inspired by that EMP pulse from Pacific Rim).

LaserFace

2014-10-09, 10:46 PM

Some ideas you might appreciate:

-make it five times larger.
-100ft high jump and/or long jump.
-No laserbreath, but a sonic shout that deafens people and also knocks things over and/or breaks them.
-Each attack it makes is against everything in a 50ft cone.
-It gets "lair" actions in any city, where the rubble from buildings he's currently destroying falls and lands on PCs who fail to make DEX saves.
-"Casts" Earthquake.

Sartharina

2014-10-09, 10:49 PM

I don't think the Tarrasque should get the same benefit from a short rest as a PC.Well, it does. Just like everything else in the Monster Manual.

Valraukar

2014-10-10, 03:31 AM

Some ideas you might appreciate:

-make it five times larger.
-100ft high jump and/or long jump.
-No laserbreath, but a sonic shout that deafens people and also knocks things over and/or breaks them.

I love all of these, in particular the shout. Reading the first page of this thread I had a similar thought only in addition to deafening people it's terrible earsplitting roar could also:
-Cause damage: From the sheer concussive force or frequency. This is independent of a creature's capacity to hear. Damage could be inversely proportional to a target's distance from the Big T.
-Stun on a failed save: Much like the sonic component of a concussion or stun grenade works.
-Cause terror on a failed save. Creatures that fail must move away from Big T as fast as possible for X rounds and are frightened for Y rounds, where X= save DC - PC save roll = 0.5*Y. Creatures that succeed (or fail) receive negative modifiers to saving throws vs subsequent fear checks for Z rds: Big T is an incarnate nightmare, a primal force of destruction. Hear his roar, tremble and despair!

Choose a save DC that is difficult for level 20 characters to succeed at, and impossible for characters in their teens. Worm! You dare not even approach big T, let alone think to attack him! If your two-bit, ragtag band of level 15 pants-****ters, with your +3 ranged weapons & your chest of potions, are somehow foolish and unfortunate enough to look on Big T, the short remainder of your miserable lives will be accompanied by the soundtrack of big T's laughter! Only by laughter we mean a mind-melting, earth-rending roar! (Also, big T doesn't have a sense of humor.) An apocalyptic howl that is the aural distillate of bottomless hunger, of endless destruction! The sound of the Thing That Should Not Be, But Is....fly munchkins, fly!

I think it would be an appropriate feature for the creature; Big T must have a huge set of pipes. And I think it fits the OP's concept of preserving the spirit of big T.

Valraukar

2014-10-10, 04:30 AM

Title says it all. We have a long debate going on here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374534-So-the-tarrasque-is-even-weaker-than-before) about various ways for beating Big T.

Proposed upgrades to the Tarrasque that might make it CR 30, each one separate.

It can eat anything that's organic. Trees, bulettes, any dragon dumb enough to be caught, you name it. When it eats, it recovers lost HP at a rate of one HP per ten pounds of organic matter. A Tarrasque that seizes and devours a medium creature regains fifteen or twenty HP. A Tarrasque that eats an oak tree regains a hundred or more, although this may require more than one round - DM ruling as to how much a tree weighs and the time needed to treat it like a celery stick.
The Frightful Presence becomes larger and more persistent. If you fail your save you must flee for one minute; when you return, you must save again, and will flee again if you fail. Each time you fail and flee the DC increases by 1. The radius of the FP extends 600' in all directions.
Like giants, the Tarrasque is skilled at throwing boulders, and adds its strength modifier and proficiency to ranged attacks. It can throw anything weighing up to and including one ton

EDIT:

This may not be enough to deserve CR 30, but I will throw it out there.

As a Legendary Action, the Tarrasque can Rampage. When the Tarrasque rampages, it destroys anything near it - dirt, trees, rocks, buildings. This raises a cloud of dust and debris granting the Tarrasque 50% cover. The Tarrasque can only Rampage in response to an attack that actually damages it.
Sniped

I think all of these are nice as well. Given how scary ol' T is, I might even amend Frightful Presence to have a range of 600' in all directions OR when a creature can see or hear Big T.

Shining Wrath

2014-10-10, 09:36 AM

so what you're saying is he has a magical ability?

I'm saying that he, like many creatures, is granted immunity to weapons that aren't magical - in this case, by a very thick hide.

Friv

2014-10-10, 10:09 AM

I love all of these, in particular the shout. Reading the first page of this thread I had a similar thought only in addition to deafening people it's terrible earsplitting roar could also:
-Cause damage: From the sheer concussive force or frequency. This is independent of a creature's capacity to hear. Damage could be inversely proportional to a target's distance from the Big T.
-Stun on a failed save: Much like the sonic component of a concussion or stun grenade works.
-Cause terror on a failed save. Creatures that fail must move away from Big T as fast as possible for X rounds and are frightened for Y rounds, where X= save DC - PC save roll = 0.5*Y. Creatures that succeed (or fail) receive negative modifiers to saving throws vs subsequent fear checks for Z rds: Big T is an incarnate nightmare, a primal force of destruction. Hear his roar, tremble and despair!

Choose a save DC that is difficult for level 20 characters to succeed at, and impossible for characters in their teens. Worm! You dare not even approach big T, let alone think to attack him! If your two-bit, ragtag band of level 15 pants-****ters, with your +3 ranged weapons & your chest of potions, are somehow foolish and unfortunate enough to look on Big T, the short remainder of your miserable lives will be accompanied by the soundtrack of big T's laughter! Only by laughter we mean a mind-melting, earth-rending roar! (Also, big T doesn't have a sense of humor.) An apocalyptic howl that is the aural distillate of bottomless hunger, of endless destruction! The sound of the Thing That Should Not Be, But Is....fly munchkins, fly!

I think it would be an appropriate feature for the creature; Big T must have a huge set of pipes. And I think it fits the OP's concept of preserving the spirit of big T.

I love all of these, in particular the shout. Reading the first page of this thread I had a similar thought only in addition to deafening people it's terrible earsplitting roar could also:
-Cause damage: From the sheer concussive force or frequency. This is independent of a creature's capacity to hear. Damage could be inversely proportional to a target's distance from the Big T.
-Stun on a failed save: Much like the sonic component of a concussion or stun grenade works.
-Cause terror on a failed save. Creatures that fail must move away from Big T as fast as possible for X rounds and are frightened for Y rounds, where X= save DC - PC save roll = 0.5*Y. Creatures that succeed (or fail) receive negative modifiers to saving throws vs subsequent fear checks for Z rds: Big T is an incarnate nightmare, a primal force of destruction. Hear his roar, tremble and despair!

This is pretty cool, but this...

Choose a save DC that is difficult for level 20 characters to succeed at, and impossible for characters in their teens. Worm! You dare not even approach big T, let alone think to attack him!

... can't be done in 5E, unless you want to move the DC from "difficulty" to "nigh-impossible" for a Level 20 character. At Level 20, most characters have primary saves in the +9 to +11 range, with a few having extra benefits. At Level 12, most characters have primary saves in the +6 to +8 range. If the DC of the Tarrasque's roar is, say, 25, most Level 20 people will fail, yeah, but Level 12 people still have a shot at succeeding. (Heck, a Level 5 person can have a bonus of +7, giving them a 15% chance of success.)

Ramshack

2014-10-10, 10:14 AM

Anyone else think maybe Big T is just misunderstood, he hides for centuries alone, contemplating life, his purpose, what's he's doing on this plane. Why he is is hated, and the only one of his kind, until the lonliness is too much to bear and he emerges from his lair to look for answers, to find a mate, or maybe just a friend. But everywhere he goes armies rise to fight him, adventure's try to kill him until he returns to his isolation riddled with holes, for centuries more of loneliness. Above he can hear the vibrations and celebrations of the civilizations above joyful that he is gone and banished.

micahwc

2014-10-10, 10:21 AM

D-naras

2014-10-10, 11:43 AM

I kind of want there to be some overwhelmingly bad consequence of actually killing the Tarrasque. Like, the Tarrasque is some sort of "protector" of the world and it's threat is the only think keeping some sort of evil at bay. Killing T releases this. Keeping with this theme, the bad guy could have tried to awaken the Tarrasque for the express purpose of getting it killed by the heroes. The heroes celebrate killing it, only to find that things are now much worse.

Kinda like Final Fantasy 7's resident Kaiju, the Weapons. They were essentially, the planet's immune system and were destroying humanity because we pollute (not ham-fisted at all...). Maybe make the Tarrasque an ancient nature proto-god that manifests from time to time, rampages around leveling populated areas and then goes back to sleep, allowing the desolated place to return to its natural state. Killing it, stops this cycle and changes the ecosystem in some fashion, maybe plants don't grow anymore, animals become mutated become some strange disease afflicts everything. Maybe the Tarrasque naturally produced the antidote into the local atmosphere but had to eat everything to do this and now with it being dead, nothing can stop this naturally.

Valraukar

2014-10-10, 12:04 PM

Kinda like Final Fantasy 7's resident Kaiju, the Weapons. They were essentially, the planet's immune system and were destroying humanity because we pollute (not ham-fisted at all...). Maybe make the Tarrasque an ancient nature proto-god that manifests from time to time, rampages around leveling populated areas and then goes back to sleep, allowing the desolated place to return to its natural state. Killing it, stops this cycle and changes the ecosystem in some fashion, maybe plants don't grow anymore, animals become mutated become some strange disease afflicts everything. Maybe the Tarrasque naturally produced the antidote into the local atmosphere but had to eat everything to do this and now with it being dead, nothing can stop this naturally.

Interesting stuff but probably fit for a different thread. This is veering way off target from the OP topic.

Gnomes2169

2014-10-10, 12:48 PM

Cybren

2014-10-10, 12:57 PM

I'm saying that he, like many creatures, is granted immunity to weapons that aren't magical - in this case, by a very thick hide.
so if it's just because of a thick hide than it follows that a tarrasque should be vulnerable to sufficient trauma.

TheDeadlyShoe

2014-10-10, 01:03 PM

What if Tarrasque was immune to the long range band of weapons?

Then you wouldn't need to worry about all these crazy 600' range things because longbows.

Gnomes2169

2014-10-10, 01:05 PM

Oh, and I looked up death saving throws... They do in fact ignore your con bonus. Which is unfortunate imho. Maybe let the big T add it in?

Easy_Lee

2014-10-10, 03:36 PM

Doug Lampert

2014-10-10, 04:10 PM

My preferred solution is to give him a burrow speed of say 40 feet, plus regeneration. Doesn't even need to be that high, 5 or 10 would probably do. Then if anyone tried the kiting/flying strategy on him, he could burrow and force them to descend into his burrows to take him down, or allow him to tunnel to his next populated destination and then lay waste to it.

It's simple, doesn't mess with his 'feel' much at all (arguably returns it a bit to its roots), and I think it would disqualify the most ridiculous low level tarrasque-kill strategies.

Yep, and the fluff is that it emerges from sleeping underground every few centuries.

How can this monster perform its basic function, in the absence of any PCs of any level, if it doesn't have burrow?

It finds a convenient hidden 50' cave no one knows about in the center of a city or something? No. It burrows.

The fluff simply doesn't work without a burrow speed, which conveniently also largely fixes the fact that without one the monster is broken weak.

Job

2014-10-11, 11:41 AM

Give him:

Burrow speed
Regeneration
A breath attack at 1000' range line or something equally stupid
Make his digestion deal dual typed damage: bludgeoning plus acid. Resistance or immunity to one cuts damage by half, same story for vulnerability. Alternatively, make it necrotic/acid to simulate radioactivity.

That covers his major weaknesses, including accidentally eating a shapeshifter (immunity to acid if right elemental, kill from the inside). It also fits the Godzilla theme.

All good,

The atomic breath makes and excellent variant options for unsuspecting PCs, regeneration and burrowing are a must, and I'd love to see and instantaneous earthquake effect at some reasonable interval.

If not atomic breath then at least and improved improvised weapon throw, with magic piercing.

Can Big T just vomit out an offending morsel if the somehow avoid the acid damage?

Easy_Lee

2014-10-11, 07:07 PM

Can Big T just vomit out an offending morsel if the somehow avoid the acid damage?

He can try to, but presumably a druid in earth elemental form (or air if they're immune to acid) can resist being vomited. There's a good chance it lets them expand to be larger than his esophagus, anyway.

Shining Wrath

2014-10-11, 07:19 PM

so if it's just because of a thick hide than it follows that a tarrasque should be vulnerable to sufficient trauma.

Which is, evidently, more than can be generated with a non magical weapon.

Cybren

2014-10-11, 09:24 PM

Which is, evidently, more than can be generated with a non magical weapon.

But presumably not more than can be generated by a tarrasque, so it follows that he should take damage from buildings.

infinitetech

2014-10-13, 04:23 AM

hm, ill start working, what one good trait could work...

Valraukar

2014-10-13, 04:28 AM

hm, ill start working, what one good trait could work...

In my opinion, I'd give him several nasty traits, any number of those listed above + whatever my evil DM heart decided on, because this fellow is supposed to be a vicious hulking primal badass with lots of sharp, nasty, pointy teeth.

infinitetech

2014-10-13, 05:00 AM

he asked for as few as possible is why i said that, if we were going for multiple its a different story all together

Strill

2014-10-13, 06:05 AM

Say I get swallowed by the Tarrasque. I then put a portable hole into a bag of holding. Sure we're both drawn into the Astral plane, but the Tarrasque was sucked through the portal insides first, so he comes out the other side inside out. Isn't this a foolproof way of defeating the Tarrasque?

Also, this is a really neat way to conceptualize the implications of four-dimensional space.

Shining Wrath

2014-10-13, 11:18 AM

Say I get swallowed by the Tarrasque. I then put a bag of holding into a portable hole. Sure we're both drawn into the Astral plane, but the Tarrasque is now inside out due to having been sucked through the portal insides first. Isn't this a foolproof way of defeating the Tarrasque?

Also, this is a really neat way to conceptualize the implications of four-dimensional space.

This may in fact be the single most dramatic way of committing suicide ever.

infinitetech

2014-10-13, 05:43 PM

Shining Wrath

2014-10-13, 08:48 PM

actually that may work, and you would survive it too... you have planar shift for afterward? also if that is decided not to be enough, the other way around with those might do it...

either way, this is technically a lvl 1 commoner method to kill him with a chance of survival, i hope someone rolls that lucky on loot and that unlucky on random encounter...

or if an npc kender manages to accidentally do it in a cross setting game...

You hope too small, infinitetech. ALL the Kenders hurl themselves down the gullet of the Tarrasque, each with their own filched portable hole and swiped bag of holding, because it's the only way to be sure.

infinitetech

2014-10-14, 02:18 AM

You hope too small, infinitetech. ALL the Kenders hurl themselves down the gullet of the Tarrasque, each with their own filched portable hole and swiped bag of holding, because it's the only way to be sure.
wait, no, just a Kender with a ton of Simulcrums, each kitted out with +5 variants of the two items, do you know what that much magic energy being released at once somewhere a planar tear is occurring would cause? you would end up with all dimensions that ever existed suddenly having a giant train station made of a hollow tarrasque boy that's bigger on the inside and inverted decorated with Kender Simulcrum parts, in a tasteful sort of new age gore, also this means every reality ever now has a cross over link that cannot be broken... oh hey, look, Deadpool just stole slapstick's powers while kissing ensign sue who is pulling her pet Cthulhu behind her dressed in a pupa fan girl shirt... oh dear god what have we done!?! (this based on actual old school rules for what happens with certain things...)