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Laesin
2007-03-15, 08:00 PM
I have just read the PAO spell description in the SRD and think that it could be used as a much cheaper true ressurection. After all a cadaver is the same kingdom, class and size as the person it was and is related. this is enough to make the spell permanent.
Am I missing something?

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-15, 08:06 PM
It never restores life. So you still have a dead thing on your hands.

DaMullet
2007-03-15, 08:09 PM
So what you're saying is, the Pebble-Human example given in the book can't work? It would turn a pebble into a corpse?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-15, 08:18 PM
Yeah, it would. Whatever you'd make would be devoid of life.

A neat trick, however, would be to pair polymorph other with a simple raise dead at lower levels to basically let you cast true ressurection (without the expanded time-since-decease, though) on a party member that was, say, turned into ashes.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-15, 08:20 PM
Where do the rules say POA can't create or give life?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-15, 08:23 PM
To be more specific, it doesn't say it creates life, which in effect means it doesn't. After something living dies, it's spirit moves on in D&D. A spirit is incorpreal, hence you can't create one with polymorph. And since the spirit would have left before you'd attempt this, you'd just make a meat bag.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-15, 08:27 PM
In ever said it created a spirit. But what stops it from creating a representation of life that is completely lacking in spirit? Spirit is not a physically necessary part of the body.

While I would say that you can't resurrect a creature given life with PAO (it having no spirit) it should be able to create someone or something that is physically alive for all purposes.

Laesin
2007-03-15, 08:27 PM
But by the description it can give social stats. Surely that implies self-awareness and thus life?

GAH just realised the permanent duration would make it an ongoing magical effect anyway. One greater dispel and you have a corpse again.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-15, 08:30 PM
yeah. But one more PAO and you have your person alive again.

The_Snark
2007-03-15, 08:31 PM
Yeah... corpses don't have any need for Charisma or Wisdom. It seems like it creates the creature, at least temporarily.

Looking at the pebble->human example given, that's actually really interesting. You've just created a fully sapient human being, whose life will last maybe 20 minutes before he turns back into a rock.

NullAshton
2007-03-15, 08:31 PM
I had an idea for a plot using that. You could have two dead corpses transmuted into a human, both say sorcerers. Whenever the other one 'dies', the remaining one casts Polymorph Any Object on him to turn him back into 'himself', fully healed. Neither of them would have souls, but polymorph any object works fine as a resurrection method.

Laesin
2007-03-15, 08:33 PM
But would the ressed character have the old character's memories?

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-15, 08:34 PM
It gets real fun if your DM lets you use PAO for custom creature creation.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-15, 08:35 PM
Well as memory is a physical characteristic then yes, it would have the old memories.

Cybren
2007-03-15, 08:39 PM
Well as memory is a physical characteristic then yes, it would have the old memories.
That's getting into some deep metaphysical...uhm...stuff.

Laesin
2007-03-15, 08:42 PM
I had an idea for a plot using that. You could have two dead corpses transmuted into a human, both say sorcerers. Whenever the other one 'dies', the remaining one casts Polymorph Any Object on him to turn him back into 'himself', fully healed. Neither of them would have souls, but polymorph any object works fine as a resurrection method.

Wouldn't work. By RAW the spell caps out at creating things with 15HD, not enough for the sorcerers to cast the spell. Wizards could do it though.

Cruiser1
2007-03-15, 10:04 PM
The special and expensive part of a Raise Dead spell is drawing the original soul back into the body from whatever plane it went to. You could certainly cast Polymorph Any Object to convert a character's corpse to a living human, but that human wouldn't contain the soul of the dead character. It would contain a temporary random soul drawn from wherever, and be a DM character until Polymorph Any Object wears off or gets dispelled. I hope you didn't try this method while adventuring in the Abyss, otherwise the alternate soul is likely to be very unfriendly! :smallyuk:

UglyPanda
2007-03-15, 10:09 PM
I personally think it's just a clone. Clones don't have the same experience and/or skills as an original, so you're just making a level 1 version of your buddy.

Laesin
2007-03-15, 10:09 PM
Didn't try it but was contemplating it as our only healer has gone AWOL repeatedly and we are now in the mid teen levels. But if it used the body to create a new being with all the memories and stats of the old one what difference would it make what soul was in it?

Laesin
2007-03-15, 10:12 PM
I personally think it's just a clone. Clones don't have the same experience and/or skills as an original, so you're just making a level 1 version of your buddy.

Beg to differ. The spell allows creation of anything up to 15HD so it could create an exact (down to personality and abilities) duplicate of a 15th level adventurer. How is that different from ressurecting him in practice?

TheOOB
2007-03-15, 10:23 PM
Why is it the the most broken spell in D&D is also the most confusing and vague spell in D&D?

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-15, 10:29 PM
That's getting into some deep metaphysical...uhm...stuff.

...metaphysical stuff like neurology? Memory is in people's heads. Take certain parts of what's in their heads out and they'll lose it. It's pretty well-known.

kamikasei
2007-03-15, 10:38 PM
...metaphysical stuff like neurology? Memory is in people's heads. Take certain parts of what's in their heads out and they'll lose it. It's pretty well-known.

In the real world I certainly agree that the ability to transform any random thing into an exact physical duplicate of another thing would allow you to duplicate a human, memories, personalities and all. Whether that's possible in D&D, where "souls" are part of the mechanics, is another question.

Sardia
2007-03-15, 10:42 PM
I suppose a comparison with the Clone spell might give some insight-- cloned flesh minus a soul gives just inert, lifeless flesh.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-15, 10:42 PM
Why is it the the most broken spell in D&D is also the most confusing and vague spell in D&D?

It's not a question. Its the reason.

Cybren
2007-03-15, 10:51 PM
...metaphysical stuff like neurology? Memory is in people's heads. Take certain parts of what's in their heads out and they'll lose it. It's pretty well-known.
The parts that aren't well known are the parts that aren't parts of science. Nice attempt at sounding smart but you missed the whole point.

Are we our memories? Are we just the accumulation of our past experiences? Are we the continuity of our past experiences? If there is no difference between me, and an identical copy made of me given the same memories as me, is the copy not just as real? It thinks so. And you'd be hard pressed to tell us apart.

Laesin
2007-03-15, 10:55 PM
I suppose a comparison with the Clone spell might give some insight-- cloned flesh minus a soul gives just inert, lifeless flesh.

Except one of the examples given in the spell description is pebble to human. Even though that example is only temporary it would be pretty useless to turn a pebble into a lump of inert flesh in the shape of a human, therefore the spell seems at least to give life temporarily as it certainly doesn't give its creation the construct subtype.

Sardia
2007-03-15, 11:01 PM
Except one of the examples given in the spell description is pebble to human. Even though that example is only temporary it would be pretty useless to turn a pebble into a lump of inert flesh in the shape of a human, therefore the spell seems at least to give life temporarily as it certainly doesn't give its creation the construct subtype.

Perhaps just no exact duplication?

kamikasei
2007-03-15, 11:04 PM
The parts that aren't well known are the parts that aren't parts of science. Nice attempt at sounding smart but you missed the whole point.

Are we our memories? Are we just the accumulation of our past experiences? Are we the continuity of our past experiences? If there is no difference between me, and an identical copy made of me given the same memories as me, is the copy not just as real? It thinks so. And you'd be hard pressed to tell us apart.

Your tone seems unwarranted. The issue is how our real-world expectation that a perfect physical duplicate of an individual would share that individual's traits that rely on physical features (which as far as I'm concerned is everything - and as far as any reasonable person, in my opinion, would agree, certainly includes memories) maps to a D&D world where there are these mysterious "souls" wandering around, doing... something for/to people. The question is whether a polymorphed duplicate of a dead person is a) that person, raised, with their soul restored from whatever outer plane it had gone to; or b), a duplicate of the person entirely independent of their soul, which raises the question of whether the duplicate has a soul, whether it has a duplicated soul, whether it differs in any way other than physical from its original, etc. These question may be irrelevant in the real world, but they have to be answered in D&D.

Looking at the spell descriptions, though, I don't see anything about polymorphing an object into a specific individual creature; nor is there any mention of classes or skills (ability scores, base saves, and so on only). Unless I'm missing something (and I might well be), I would find it amusing to allow PAO to produce a being that looks exactly like its model, has the same ability scores, but is (say, if the original was a level 15 human wizard) just a basic human advanced to 15HD with no class levels, and no memories or real relationship beyond appearance to the original.

This is at least partly motivated by how annoying I find the idea of "a clone is like a copy!", though, so it may not be an entirely fair ruling for a polymorph spell.

Sardia
2007-03-15, 11:04 PM
Are we our memories? Are we just the accumulation of our past experiences? Are we the continuity of our past experiences? If there is no difference between me, and an identical copy made of me given the same memories as me, is the copy not just as real? It thinks so. And you'd be hard pressed to tell us apart.

Fortunately, in this context it just matters if the guy who cast PAO thinks whatever he winds up with is a suitable substitute for the dead guy. If it is, great. If it isn't really, he still can laugh over the same bar stories and do the stuff the old version did so it might not be worth worrying about.

kamikasei
2007-03-15, 11:15 PM
I'm curious about this:


Are we our memories? Are we just the accumulation of our past experiences? Are we the continuity of our past experiences? If there is no difference between me, and an identical copy made of me given the same memories as me, is the copy not just as real? It thinks so. And you'd be hard pressed to tell us apart.

What's the point of this question? It doesn't really seem to have much to do with what Bears was talking about - that if you duplicate someone's body perfectly, you've duplicated their memories, which are physically represented in the brain. I don't understand where you're going with your comments above.

For my part, yeah, if a perfect physical duplicate is made of me I would think that it would have all my memories and other traits, would be justified in claiming that it was "me", or at least the same "me" who was around up to the point of duplication (obviously it's not the same "me" who's looking out through my eyes - he's now a different person with the same history, looking out through different eyes). It might be possible to say that I am clearly the original and he the duplicate, but we still are essentially two copies of the same person. It would surely pose a lot of problems with legal status, personal relationships, etc. But in the end - what does it have to do with the question?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-16, 12:02 AM
Does the brain house memories in D&D, though? There's no question about having a soul in D&D- everyone has one. And that spirit apparently retains all it's own memories, according to various fluff involving the undead, outsiders, and proxies. In Ebberon especially, giving something intelligence and thought processes isn't the same thing as giving it a soul, as per the warforged versus a golem. Without a soul, an inert lifeforce can only rationalize. If you made an exact duplicate of a person and you argue that the brain should still hold all the person's living memories, then you can even interrogate it (actually, not a bad idea). But unlike the real person, it wouldn't really have any motivation to do anything. After all, it's going to die in 20 minutes anyway so there's nothing it could really accomplish even if it wanted to.

Inyssius Tor
2007-03-16, 12:29 AM
Well, I would say that it does indeed hold the person's memories in D&D; see Speak with Dead for my reasoning behind this. Speak with Dead doesn't bring back the spirit, it just accesses the knowledge stored in the corpse.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-16, 12:48 AM
Well, so long as there's precedent. I guess this means your catatonic, motivationless 20 minute meat bag copy would indeed still have any and all memories of the person he's a copy of.

...hey, does that mean you don't have to wait for the person to be dead to attempt this? Think about it- you could do the pebble-to-human thing to make a clone, then use telepathy/torture to get some insider info.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-16, 12:50 AM
There's nothing to indicate PAO can construct a specific human. It does raise a bunch of questions, though. What memories, if any, will the new human have? If the human reverts to a pebble, and you turn that pebble back into a human a day later, will it be the same human? Will he remember being a human a day ago? Will he remember being a pebble?

Sardia
2007-03-16, 02:35 AM
...hey, does that mean you don't have to wait for the person to be dead to attempt this? Think about it- you could do the pebble-to-human thing to make a clone, then use telepathy/torture to get some insider info.

Or just start turning anything nearby into copies of you. Who then go out and make more copies, and then those copies...
If the "pebble-into-wizard" can come into being with spells memorized, it cascades nicely. If not, you'll just have to go all Agent Smith on the population...

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-16, 02:57 AM
Bears has a strong point, though. Nothing in the spell's definition says you can specify what you're turning something into beyond type. So, you'd be making a brand new generic human.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-16, 04:29 AM
SRSLY. It's PAO. Do we really need to make it more broken than it already is?

NullAshton
2007-03-16, 06:49 AM
SRSLY. It's PAO. Do we really need to make it more broken than it already is?

For the purposes of having fun with it, yes.

I like the Agent Smith idea. Just start turning everyone into clones of you. Genius!

Clementx
2007-03-16, 11:40 AM
Class levels are not part of a body. They are part of a person, which is a body and a soul. Without the soul, the body is just an object. The evidence? Reincarnate makes a new body for a soul, and the soul brings the class levels back (less one for the trauma/balance). It also doesn't grant the mental ability modifiers of the new body. Speak to Dead is a good example of what does remain in the body- repetitive memories and a bit of alignment-based metaphysical will against opposing necromancy. It also states the person is raised afterwards, it does not remember the questioning. So the soul and body are independent after death. Only revised Polymorph (which is completely different as to not have any bearing on the original spells) affects class levels.

So PAO would create a blank human from an object, with appropriate mental attributes (10, 10, 10 as all Polymorph spells create typical members of a kind). It would have the normal experiences of the object, which is to say none at all. What it doesn't say is if it grants the mind/default behavior of the new form. For the sake of a functional spell, you should assume that. There is no reason to create a comatose wolf from fur with a lvl8 spell, after all. So it also creates a typical soul to animate that body from nothing.

So it would gain the default soul/mind of the normal form, but not that of a specific soul, and that is it. Now, all non-mindless creatures learn. If you want a functional wolf out of the MM, you need it to work, which involves conjuring learning out of nothing. You need to to replicate the abilities of a typical creature of its race and racial hit dice. For the sake of the spell, you have to assume that this is covered in its racial hit dice, but without any specific memories of it. So a wolf would react to a deer normally, without any memory of chasing down its litter mates to practice hunting when it was a pup.

So what is human-default? The default 1HD humanoid? So humanoids with no class levels...you aren't even a Commoner. Personally, I would say that is rather feral/childlike. You could be generous and let it represent a completely generic human- it knows Common, but has no memory of learning it. It oddly enough gets all the simple weapon proficiencies. You might even decide as far as making it a lvl1 warrior, since that is the most generic DnD creature form. Now, it probably is a very good way to create a base of a Flesh Golem/undead creature, or to inhabit with Magic Jar. But the original person it is not.

It would be interesting to PAO a corpse back to life- it would be someone else (and probably a lvl1 someone else), but possibly with Speak with Dead type memories of its previous life. Like waking up from a horrible dream just before you die...DUDE, that is so my next campaign idea. A party of people that begin their adventuring career, each haunted by dreams of a life they cannot shake, only to discover the BBEG was what killed them in their, "last life".

Fax Celestis
2007-03-16, 11:58 AM
If you made an exact duplicate of a person and you argue that the brain should still hold all the person's living memories, then you can even interrogate it (actually, not a bad idea). But unlike the real person, it wouldn't really have any motivation to do anything. After all, it's going to die in 20 minutes anyway so there's nothing it could really accomplish even if it wanted to.

You read "Schlock Mercenary", don't you?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-16, 12:04 PM
Oddly enough, no. But I've been meaning to read it. People keep saying it's the sort of thing I'd enjoy.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-16, 12:11 PM
Ah, well. I won't give away some of the plot, then.

Laesin
2007-03-16, 04:37 PM
Well I think the consensus seems to be you can't bring the person back with this spell. Thanks all for the help, I might be able to turn this into a game idea. Maybe a variant on the frankenstein story.

Collin152
2007-03-16, 06:19 PM
Well, that and Permanent is not Instantaneous, so their "life" could be dispelled anyways.

martyboy74
2007-03-16, 06:38 PM
As a semi-related (and lilkely thread-hijacking) question, what can you polymorph into swarms? If so, what happens? What about mobs? Could an evil wizard turn his garden path into an army (Admittedly, one that would only last for 20 minutes)?

Rigeld2
2007-03-16, 06:52 PM
Could an evil wizard turn his garden path into an army (Admittedly, one that would only last for 20 minutes)?
Yes. Would said army follow his instructions? Not guaranteed.

Collin152
2007-03-16, 07:36 PM
Then polymorph them into an obedient to people named (your name) with (hair color) hair army!

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-16, 07:42 PM
It doesn't appear to work that way. You get to specify a type of creature or object, but nothing else about it. For all other intents and purposes, it's a generic version of whatever you polymorphed it into.

Collin152
2007-03-16, 07:49 PM
Who's to say you can't make up a new kind of creature or object?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-16, 07:55 PM
Because if it doesn't exist, it doesn't have stats :P

UglyPanda
2007-03-16, 08:09 PM
Beg to differ. The spell allows creation of anything up to 15HD so it could create an exact (down to personality and abilities) duplicate of a 15th level adventurer. How is that different from ressurecting him in practice?

HD != character levels

Druids don't have monkey clerics as animal companions, they have monkeys with a lot of hit dice.

Collin152
2007-03-16, 08:21 PM
Because if it doesn't exist, it doesn't have stats :P
Where in the spell description does it state it must ave stats?

martyboy74
2007-03-16, 08:23 PM
Because if it doesn't exist, it doesn't have stats :P
So, I can't polymorph things into statues? Odd.

Collin152
2007-03-16, 08:27 PM
Check and mate. Where are the stats for Pebbles, wool, or wolf fur, as noted as examples in the spell description?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-16, 08:29 PM
They don't need them. They're materials- things. They lack all mental scores and are incapable of movement of any form. They lack stats because they cannot make any actions on their own, ever.

martyboy74
2007-03-16, 08:30 PM
Check and mate. Where are the stats for Pebbles, wool, or wolf fur, as noted as examples in the spell description?
Technically, he never said that you can't polymorph some without stats into something else. However, it directly mentions the wool coat as being PAOed into, so I agree overall.

Aquillion
2007-03-16, 09:30 PM
My feeling would be that using Polymorph Any Object on a soulless (inanimate or dead) object to make a living human(oid) physically changes the target into a completely new person. Having raw materials that are close to a human corpse helps since it has to make less changes, but the question of whether or not the memories are in the brain are moot--PAO is not a resurrection or speak with the dead spell, it's a polymorph one, so it's stupidly liquifying that slab of dead brain-meat and shaping it into a completely new and different, living one, just as it is effectively 'liquifying' a rock and shaping it into a brain. It's having an easier time of it since the old body was made of just the kind of meat it needs to fashon its sparkly new brain, but there's nothing in PAO to indicate that any part or attributes of the materials you're polymorphing are preserved, whatsoever--note that a large humanoid doll made from bear-leather would be just as easy to POA into a human as a human corpse would be.

You could polymorph a rock into a duplicate of your dead buddy, or you could polymorph their corpse into a duplicate; the end results would be exactly, completely identical in all respects except duration. You could also polymorph a random orc corpse into your dead (or still-living!) buddy, and get something that is totally indistinguishable from what you'd have gotten if you used your buddy's corpse--POA simply doesn't care at all about the former shape of whatever it's polymorphing outside of the broad categories used to determine duration, and even that is only used for duration.

In all cases, the creature created by Polymorph Any Object will have typical stats for the new form, with no relation to the source material; they will have no skills or class levels (POA doesn't grant them); they won't have any memories (again, POA doesn't grant them); and they will be a DM-controlled NPC.

Collin152
2007-03-17, 12:15 AM
No, theres something to indicate- they gain the intelligence of the new form, and gain wisdom and charisma if it previously lacked them.

Aquillion
2007-03-17, 02:40 AM
I was talking about polymorphing dead or otherwise inanimate things into living creatures; naturally, already-living things retain their wisdom and charisma (but not their intelligence). A dead body doesn't have Wisdom and Charisma scores, though, and a creature PAOed from a corpse isn't influenced by the Wisdom and Charisma scores that that corpse had when alive any more than a zombie is.

The PAO spell grants your creation the average intelligence for its new form (which is good, since you would be creating a mindless living body if it didn't do that), and will generate new average Wisdom and Charisma scores, since lumps of dead meat don't have them normally. But when cast on a corpse, there's nothing in the spell to indicate that it interacts meaningfully with the corpses' old inhabitant or abilities.

In order to do what the original poster was asking about, it would have to specifically say that it restores the dead to life, brings back abilities, or otherwise restores the old intelligence/wisdom/charisma scores of the body in question. Saying that it generates new ones, in fact, implies exactly the opposite.

Now... if you're saying that you could polymorph a dead body into a copy of your friend and it would automatically gain their intelligence score, that's a little more tricky. Technically the spell as worded does not exclude that possibility. But that means you could do that on any corpse and create a duplicate of anyone, getting (at least) their intelligence score. You still wouldn't get their skills, levels, memories, personality, or anything else, though; and it isn't a resurrection. Likewise, using it on your friend's actual corpse isn't a resurrection--it produces a classless, leveless, essentially useless NPC who happens to have a specific person's intelligence score, nothing more.

Oh. And, uh. I somehow only just noticed this: If you PAO yourself into a creature with a higher intelligence score, you get to use that score. If you do it to something of your same Kingdom, Classification, and Size, you get to keep that intelligence score permanently. Nothing in the spell makes this remotely tricky... the only hard part is finding a suitable creature. Any ideas for super-smart mammals, or other classifications of creatures that could be used as a player race?

martyboy74
2007-03-17, 07:54 AM
What if you polymorphed yourself into a dragon, then PAOed yourself into some other dragon? Would the form that you're in at the time of the polymorph count? If it did, then you could permenently PAO yourself into a Gold Dragon.

Aquillion
2007-03-17, 11:11 AM
Hmm... it'd probably work. You could argue about what original state means in here, though: "This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another. The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state."

Another thing you could argue is that PAO's duration isn't "set" when it's cast; even while you're PAOed, the duration of the original Polymorph keeps ticking, and when it runs out, your PAO counts as being more radical and instantly assumes the duration of an human (or whatever)-to-dragon polymorph, expiring if that time has already passed.

...you know, though, Kobolds are related to dragons. They're both animals, they're in the same kingdom (whatever kingdom dragons are in), and 'object is related'. That's the +9 needed for a permanent transformation, without polymorph being required. You may need the Dragonwraught Kobold feat to count for the last part, but I don't see why you would...

Clementx
2007-03-17, 11:38 AM
No, theres something to indicate- they gain the intelligence of the new form, and gain wisdom and charisma if it previously lacked them.
Exactly. The new form overwrites everything but memories and personalities- and objects have neither. See Speak with Dead for what, "memories" DnD grants to a creature's brain when the soul departs. And notice how those are not class levels. And since PAO doesn't replicate Speak with Dead, it doesn't even unlock those.

Collin152
2007-03-17, 01:54 PM
Right, and the new form is the preson they were when they were alive.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-17, 02:16 PM
Not possible. As mentioned, the new form gets the standard ability scores for a creature of it's type, but the intelligence score that it had before being polymorphed. Which just made me realize something- dead bodies don't HAVE intelligence scores. They're dead. All ability scores are 0 when you're dead. So, it has every ability score (at 10) except for intelligence, which is 0. So what is it?

A living, catatonic zombie.

Since it has no intelligence and the rest of it's mental traits are likewise not dependant on the person it used to be, the person is in no way, shape, or form anything remotely like the original version outside of how he looks. This is even assuming you could specify a particular person instead of a type with the spell, which isn't depicted in the rules anyway.

EDIT: Sorry, missed the part where if it didn't have an intelligence score prior to being polymorphed, it gained one according to the standard of it's type. So it has a 10 intelligence- still not based on the original person, so unlikely to retain any memories.

Leush
2007-03-17, 02:39 PM
Right, and the new form is the preson they were when they were alive.

Rightish. The knew person is the person they were alive and remembers if I recall correctly, how they died and nothing else. Nothing else.

But the SRD says:

"This spell can also be used to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm), polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm), flesh to stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fleshToStone.htm), stone to flesh (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneToFlesh.htm), transmute mud to rock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteMudToRock.htm), transmute metal to wood (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteMetalToWood.htm), or transmute rock to mud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteRockToMud.htm)."

So I would rule it can't in any way replicate the effects of animate dead in the same way that it can't replicate the effects of fireball. Thus you would get a random, generic, human for a limited time period. If you get anything more then you have an overly lenient GM methinks.

It kinda reminds me of the wizard in An Ordinary Miracle.

"Seven years ago, your husband turned me into a human..."

Collin152
2007-03-17, 06:17 PM
Not possible. As mentioned, the new form gets the standard ability scores for a creature of it's type, but the intelligence score that it had before being polymorphed. Which just made me realize something- dead bodies don't HAVE intelligence scores. They're dead. All ability scores are 0 when you're dead. So, it has every ability score (at 10) except for intelligence, which is 0. So what is it?

A living, catatonic zombie.

Since it has no intelligence and the rest of it's mental traits are likewise not dependant on the person it used to be, the person is in no way, shape, or form anything remotely like the original version outside of how he looks. This is even assuming you could specify a particular person instead of a type with the spell, which isn't depicted in the rules anyway.

EDIT: Sorry, missed the part where if it didn't have an intelligence score prior to being polymorphed, it gained one according to the standard of it's type. So it has a 10 intelligence- still not based on the original person, so unlikely to retain any memories.
No, it gains the intelligence of the new from, and if it had no wisdom/charisma, it gains them from the new form as well.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-17, 06:22 PM
The new "form" is generic, as it takes those stats from the type, not the person you're trying to duplicate (again, pretending that there is actually precedent in the rules for specifying anything besides type). It has 10 in every stat, as that's the average of a human. And since it's the average, it's by no means related to the character you're trying to duplicate. So, if their mental stats are entirely determined by the average and not the character, then it's mind is completely unrelated.

EDIT: Further, as mentioned before, you keep talking about doing this to a dead body. Again, a dead body has no stats whatsoever. It's strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, wisdom, and charisma are all 0's, as something that is dead cannot move or think ever.

Collin152
2007-03-17, 06:24 PM
But you said it would have intelligence of 0, which is clearly not true. make up your mind!

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-17, 06:27 PM
That's right. The dead body has an intelligence of 0. Upon casting polymorph other object, it has an intelligence of 10 as per it's type. Since this 10 did not come from the object in question, it retains no memories or thoughts of the object it was created from.

martyboy74
2007-03-17, 06:31 PM
That's right. The dead body has an intelligence of 0. Upon casting polymorph other object, it has an intelligence of 10 as per it's type. Since this 10 did not come from the object in question, it retains no memories or thoughts of the object it was created from.
So rocks have an intelligence of 0? Cool! I didn't know you could talk to rocks by casting Fox's Cunning/Owl's Wisdom/Eagle's Splendor on them!

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-17, 06:35 PM
...technically, I guess that's somewhat possible. You'd just need to find a way to communicate with it somehow (it still lacks a mouth). Hell, that's pretty much the basic principle behind building an intelligent item if I'm not mistaken.

Collin152
2007-03-17, 09:01 PM
No. Thats wrong. They have no intelligence, wisdom, or charisma, not 0. "-" not "0"

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-17, 09:08 PM
Says who? I recall no rules stating that. The only situation where I see that are specific creature-types, such as undead and constructs.

Collin152
2007-03-17, 09:37 PM
I seem to recall it under the definition of "object", "nonability", or somewhere in the dungeon masters guide.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-17, 09:46 PM
But there's already precedence that you can add intelligence, wisdom, charisma, and even a personality to an item through the use of magic. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm) Undeniable proof- you can magically charge an item with sentience.

Clementx
2007-03-17, 10:43 PM
Undeniable proof- you can magically charge an item with sentience.

You do realize that any personality that an intelligent item has is put there by the caster, and does not derive from the sword itself, right?

That being said, objects have all non-abilities. Something with 0 Cha is unable to distinguish itselves from the environment, and is unconscious. Something with - Cha is an object (and automatically must have - Wis as well). DMG p289 to get your facts straight.

So to clarify- when you PAO a rock into a human, it gets 10 in all its abilities, as normal for a human, and we can infer that it has a functional sort of personality/soul. When you PAO a corpse into a human, it gets 10 in all its abilities, as normal for a human, and we can infer that it has a functional sort of personality/soul. Since the corpse's previous user's soul is currently busy floating around in the Outer Planes/as a ghost/whatever, the polymorphed creature is not the original one. DM's discretion if they want to grant them Speak with Dead-type recollections of the life of their body's previous host, although as seen in the rules for possession, new people in a body don't get them.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-17, 10:46 PM
Ah, yes. So there was a rule I missed. Still, intelligent items debunks the theory that you can't magically imbue an item with sentience just because they have no mental stats to begin with.

kamikasei
2007-03-17, 10:56 PM
Ah, yes. So there was a rule I missed. Still, intelligent items debunks the theory that you can't magically imbue an item with sentience just because they have no mental stats to begin with.

That wasn't what anyone was saying. What was mentioned was that treating a rock as having Int 0 would let you bestow it with mental stats using spells that are intended only to raise mental stats, such as Fox's Cunning. You can imbue an object with sentience by using the powerful magics associated with intelligent items, but you can't just raise the int score of a rock to ask it its opinion.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-17, 10:59 PM
Hmm. Okay, yeah, I guess I can agree with that. I forgot that the boost spells grant an enhancement bonus, specifically. I guess that means anything that outright cannot have an enhancement bonus thus wouldn't be affected by them.

Collin152
2007-03-17, 11:18 PM
You seem to forget a lot for one who makes rapid and blatant claims.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-17, 11:21 PM
There's a lot of rules. At least I admit when I'm wrong.

Collin152
2007-03-17, 11:23 PM
yes, but sometimes it takes a while. In any case, this whole thing hinges on whether or not you allow more specific transformations then species. Do you at least get to pick the Gender? Hair color? Blood type?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-17, 11:31 PM
It has no new rules for choosing the type/subtype other then opening up the restrictions put on it from regular polymorph so that you can apply any type/subtype to an object or regardless of the type it was at first. So, as per the specifics of the spell, it wouldn't appear to let you specify anything beyond the type/subtype, meaning no picking the gender, hair color, etc. I'm guessing, since it says "average", you'd become the most common of all of those things. So if there's one more female human on the planet than male humans, the target would become a girl. I guess it'd do the same thing for the other features.

Collin152
2007-03-17, 11:42 PM
...
Yeeeah, I'm going to just go ahead and rule that you can get as specific as hair/eye/skin color, just to avoid minority offenses.

kamikasei
2007-03-17, 11:44 PM
It has no new rules for choosing the type/subtype other then opening up the restrictions put on it from regular polymorph so that you can apply any type/subtype to an object or regardless of the type it was at first. So, as per the specifics of the spell, it wouldn't appear to let you specify anything beyond the type/subtype, meaning no picking the gender, hair color, etc. I'm guessing, since it says "average", you'd become the most common of all of those things. So if there's one more female human on the planet than male humans, the target would become a girl. I guess it'd do the same thing for the other features.

PAO inherits from polymorph which inherits from alter self, which states:


You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm) check.

So you can make yourself or the polymorphed object look however you want, within the limits of "normal" for the target creature. You can make yourself look like a specific individual creature, as a Disguise check. Hmm, it doesn't say how to handle disguising something other than yourself, but based on the Veil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/veil.htm) spell I'd say it's a disguise check for the caster whether the target is himself or another.

Collin152
2007-03-17, 11:50 PM
i was just thinking of looking there..
Thanks a lot for that. So another claim shot down.
Hm, if you can make designate it to be a specific creature, perhaps the Polymorph into somebody you know thing could actually work!

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-17, 11:51 PM
Ahh, okay. I thought that seemed a little cumbersome. So, while it'll have completely ordinary stats for the type/subtype, you can make it look like anything within that type/subtype, down to nuanced details.

Wait, that's brilliant! If a guy's out to kill you but you have two rounds before he catches up to you, polymorph a pebble to look exactly like you, then polymorph yourself into a pebble. The bad guy kills a pebble and completely misses you!

Collin152
2007-03-17, 11:53 PM
Or beter yet, polymorph the pebble into you then polymorph yourself into something capable of running away at high speeds!

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-17, 11:55 PM
Nah, that'd draw too much attention. Unless you picked a bird or rat or something that normal people ignore anyway. I'd just be cautious to use creatures like that, since a DM could make your next encounter a hawk. Conversely, there isn't anyone I can think of that would try to kill a pebble.

kamikasei
2007-03-17, 11:58 PM
Wait, that's brilliant! If a guy's out to kill you but you have two rounds before he catches up to you, polymorph a pebble to look exactly like you, then polymorph yourself into a pebble. The bad guy kills a pebble and completely misses you!

Hmmm... I don't see anything in the spells to suggest that you can make the new form have any sort of equipment (alter self only says what happens to equipment you're wearing when you change and change back). So if your pursuer has some reason to expect to find you stark naked and looking very surprised when he catches up to you, that might work...

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-18, 12:18 AM
Fortunately, pebbles don't know common. So it couldn't explain why he's standing naked in the middle of the road :D

Collin152
2007-03-18, 12:28 AM
Hmmm... I don't see anything in the spells to suggest that you can make the new form have any sort of equipment (alter self only says what happens to equipment you're wearing when you change and change back). So if your pursuer has some reason to expect to find you stark naked and looking very surprised when he catches up to you, that might work...
You know, if I were killing someone and happened upon them without weaons or armors, I'd kill first and gouge eyes out later.

martyboy74
2007-03-18, 07:15 AM
The downside of this is that you're stuck as a pebble with a magical aura for an hour. You don't even get a save against the disintigrate/stone to mud. You just die.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-18, 10:01 AM
How would they know you're a pebble, though? Almost any instance where that would occur that I can think of would purely be the DM purposely trying to screw you over.

Clementx
2007-03-18, 10:11 AM
If your enemy has true seeing active, he would see right through it all, which would suck. If he only had detect magic, he would see transmutation effects on "you" and the "pebble". Transmutations could be any buff "you" have running, and a trap effect on the "pebble", so chances are he won't go straight for the pebble unless you have tried this on him before. Of course, that is when you mud to stone a pebble and fox's cunning yourself every other time :)

Your best bet with the tactic is either to pull a quick-change with your double, throwing him your extra outfit and cloak, or just plain-old polymorphing into a rat or pebble straight off.

Aquillion
2007-03-18, 12:18 PM
Hmm... the disguise check wording in Alter Self, which is inherited in PAO via Polymorph through all the 'This spell functions exactly like X except...' wording, seems to imply that using polymorph-type spells to get an exact duplicate of a person requires a disguise check. This has precedent in Simulacrum, and it generally just makes sense.

If you use it on a rock, say, you have to make a roll to disguise a rock as you. (I wonder, do you get the penalties for the rock not sharing your race or gender, or does polymorph negate that? Disguise isn't clear on that point.) In any case, you can be sure that any DM would assign huge circumstance bonuses based on your disguised rock's behavior; certainly anyone who attempted to interact with it would get a bonus, but even people just glancing at it might, too, based on things like its stance being off or its facial expressions being weird.

EDIT: Oh, and there's another problem: "Creating a disguise requires 1d3×10 minutes of work." A lenient DM would probably let you produce a rushed job with PAO (since it's making some parts of the disguise faster), but the implication in the disguise check required by Alter Self is that you need time to touch things up and so on after casting the spell for the seeming to be complete... if you only have a few rounds to work in, you're going to get a penalty. My feeling would be that without the 1d3x10 minutes, you wouldn't be able to add your disguise skill or ability modifier to the check... you would have to make a disguise check using the +10 given by the polymorph line, and nothing else.

Raum
2007-03-18, 12:42 PM
The downside of this is that you're stuck as a pebble with a magical aura for an hour. You don't even get a save against the disintigrate/stone to mud. You just die.I think you would get a save since the pebble is magical at this point. Not terribly reassuring though...

You'd be better off teleporting away after polymorphing the pebble to look like yourself. Or polymorphing into something with a mode of travel your pursuer can't match...badger or something else with burrow possibly.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-18, 12:43 PM
Ahh, good catch. I missed the qualifier. That severely limits PoA's usefullness as a disguise, seeing as how it's not instant. Also, since it's a disguise, I guess that means it really can't be used to exactly duplicate anyone period, even looks-wise.

Collin152
2007-03-18, 04:20 PM
Hmm... the disguise check wording in Alter Self, which is inherited in PAO via Polymorph through all the 'This spell functions exactly like X except...' wording, seems to imply that using polymorph-type spells to get an exact duplicate of a person requires a disguise check. This has precedent in Simulacrum, and it generally just makes sense.

If you use it on a rock, say, you have to make a roll to disguise a rock as you. (I wonder, do you get the penalties for the rock not sharing your race or gender, or does polymorph negate that? Disguise isn't clear on that point.) In any case, you can be sure that any DM would assign huge circumstance bonuses based on your disguised rock's behavior; certainly anyone who attempted to interact with it would get a bonus, but even people just glancing at it might, too, based on things like its stance being off or its facial expressions being weird.

EDIT: Oh, and there's another problem: "Creating a disguise requires 1d3×10 minutes of work." A lenient DM would probably let you produce a rushed job with PAO (since it's making some parts of the disguise faster), but the implication in the disguise check required by Alter Self is that you need time to touch things up and so on after casting the spell for the seeming to be complete... if you only have a few rounds to work in, you're going to get a penalty. My feeling would be that without the 1d3x10 minutes, you wouldn't be able to add your disguise skill or ability modifier to the check... you would have to make a disguise check using the +10 given by the polymorph line, and nothing else.
No, see, it just says you get a bonus on the disguise check, not stating you need to make a disguise at all. It's just augumenting it if you choose to do the nonmagical touching up, so its the normal casting time, possibly with penalty, more likely just without the benefit of a disguise kit (Overshadowed by the fact that you get a +10 to the whole endeavor)

Aquillion
2007-03-18, 10:13 PM
It isn't very clearly-worded, yeah, but look at the relevent line from Alter Self, which applies to the whole polymorph line:


You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

What that says to me is that, by default, a polymorph-line spell will just turn you into an average creature of the race you specify, with the caveat that you can select certain physical qualities. On its own, the first line would completely bar you from using polymorph to turn into a specific creature.

Then the second line notes that this spell can be useful to create a disguise (the skill you do use if you want someone to look like a specific creature), but limits its effect to a +10 bonus to a disguise check.

The implication, at least to me, is that you can't just say 'polymorph me into the Duke', but you can say 'polymorph me into someone who is generally the same size, shape, hair-color, etc as the Duke and I'll use my disguise skills to cover the rest.' Since Polymorph and PAO follow Alter Self in those respects, they'd have the same restrictions--you can turn a rock into something that shares the same general physical qualities as your friend (or yourself), but to actually make the result convincing enough to survive a second glance, you'd need some time with your makeup and costume kit.

...really, D&D could use an entire published supplement on Polymorph-type spells to hash out the complete rules. There's enough there for a book; they could focus on things like doppelgangers and shapechanging PRCs, plus lots of form-changing spells and magic items. Call it the Book of Many Changes or something and I bet lots of people would buy it.

Collin152
2007-03-18, 11:59 PM
It isn't very clearly-worded, yeah, but look at the relevent line from Alter Self, which applies to the whole polymorph line:



What that says to me is that, by default, a polymorph-line spell will just turn you into an average creature of the race you specify, with the caveat that you can select certain physical qualities. On its own, the first line would completely bar you from using polymorph to turn into a specific creature.

Then the second line notes that this spell can be useful to create a disguise (the skill you do use if you want someone to look like a specific creature), but limits its effect to a +10 bonus to a disguise check.

The implication, at least to me, is that you can't just say 'polymorph me into the Duke', but you can say 'polymorph me into someone who is generally the same size, shape, hair-color, etc as the Duke and I'll use my disguise skills to cover the rest.' Since Polymorph and PAO follow Alter Self in those respects, they'd have the same restrictions--you can turn a rock into something that shares the same general physical qualities as your friend (or yourself), but to actually make the result convincing enough to survive a second glance, you'd need some time with your makeup and costume kit.

...really, D&D could use an entire published supplement on Polymorph-type spells to hash out the complete rules. There's enough there for a book; they could focus on things like doppelgangers and shapechanging PRCs, plus lots of form-changing spells and magic items. Call it the Book of Many Changes or something and I bet lots of people would buy it.
No, read the whole thing. "You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm) check."
Freely designate. Meaning precisely.

kamikasei
2007-03-19, 03:24 AM
Then the second line notes that this spell can be useful to create a disguise (the skill you do use if you want someone to look like a specific creature), but limits its effect to a +10 bonus to a disguise check.

The implication, at least to me, is that you can't just say 'polymorph me into the Duke', but you can say 'polymorph me into someone who is generally the same size, shape, hair-color, etc as the Duke and I'll use my disguise skills to cover the rest.' Since Polymorph and PAO follow Alter Self in those respects, they'd have the same restrictions--you can turn a rock into something that shares the same general physical qualities as your friend (or yourself), but to actually make the result convincing enough to survive a second glance, you'd need some time with your makeup and costume kit.

That makes a certain amount of sense, but honestly, it seems a little silly to me - not in keeping with the flavor of the spell. I would rather rule that you can use Alter Self to make yourself look like someone else, but it requires a Disguise check to do so - but not a disguise kit and mundane makeup, etc. The check is to determine how able you are to mimic the target's appearance, but the means by which you do so is the spell itself. Perhaps make the spell require as long be spent afterwards "finalizing" the change as a mundane disguise check, to keep some of the penalty.

Really it's a matter of taste, but I don't like the idea of having to hit the makeup kit after polymorphing myself at all.

Aquillion
2007-03-19, 04:23 PM
No, read the whole thing. "You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm) check."
Freely designate. Meaning precisely.Yes, but being able to precisely choose individual features with a spell doesn't mean that you can automatically produce a convincing duplicate of an existing person. People's appearances are more than just a collection of easily-definable features... you could spend all day enumerating everything that makes up the Duke's appearance, from his hair to his height to his cheekbones to the mole on his nose, and still come up with something that couldn't withstand a moment's scrutiny.

It is comparable to, for instance, art--sure, a decent artist can freely draw any features you want with a decent art supply kit, but producing a sketch that looks like your subject takes practice, plus a bit of time and skill. Producing a sketch that looks exactly like your subject, to the extent that you could put it next to a photograph and nobody would know the difference? That could take years of practice, and you'd have to devote a lot of time and skill to an individual work to get it to come out right.

And, again, look at Simulcrum for comparison--it's one level lower, but it's entirely focused on doing one specific thing (the exact thing we want to do here), costs xp, takes time, and is generally far more restrictive in other ways, so I think it's fair to say that PAO shouldn't be too superior to it at that one thing. Simulcrum is intended solely to mimic an existing creature, and you still need a disguise check; I think that that's a fair precedent to say that using other spells to mimic an existing person require a disguise unless they mimic automatically or otherwise clearly exclude it.