Making Houserules (Seeking Advise and Suggestions)

[JonathonWilder]

I would like to request advice and suggestions when it comes to making House Rules, and what things I should focus on or give attention to.

My current house rules:
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1. I will not discuss RAW vs RAI with a player during play and I will ask that a decision made involving such ruling is respected... but the player may speak with me in private on the matter. Of note I am one who considers Rules as Intended/RAI or RaR/Rules As Reasonable before Rules as Written/RAW, which means I will likely make judgement calls some players may not like.

2. Players using Polymorph spells and Druid Wildshaping will NOT have free access to any Monster Manual, more any creature they pick will need certain questions answered. "Does your character know anything about this creature? What do they know about this creature? Have they ever meet or seen such this creature or have they only read about these creature?
After such questions are answered they will be asked to make an appropriate Knowledge check and if passed they may change into that creature.
3. Only spells from the Player's Handbook are considered automatically available to spellcasters. Any other spells from any other source must be approved by DM and can only be taken if they have the spell they wish to take replace a spell they have or will have access to from the Player's Handbook.
4. Related to the above a player may choose 20 to 30 spells from the Spell Compendium, but these spell much replace a spell of the some or higher level . The spell replaced cannot be a spell the caster does no have access to, meaning a Good aligned Cleric cannot replace an Evil spell and a specialist Wizard cannot pick a spell from a forbidden school.
If a player wishes to cast spells from other sources they may do so follow th rules above, but must get my permission.
5. No Shadow Miracles or other class building tricks with argueable validility or means of potential abuse, as decided by myself. If a player wishes to challenge by decision I make, they may do so in private and explain to me why they feel it should be allowed. Moreno, the player will need to ease any considers I have of game balance and disruption of party dynamics.
6. Material component costs and requirements will be enforced, as will spells that have an experience cost.

[Lightlawbliss]

What are you wanting from this thread? The title doesn't mesh with the opening post and the opening post doesn't ask anything.

[JonathonWilder]

What are you wanting from this thread? The title doesn't mesh with the opening post and the opening post doesn't ask anything.

Exactly what the title says, I seek advice and suggestions for house rules and I offered what I currently had put together. I apologize for not being very clear on this, I had assumed my intentions would have been fairly obvious.

[Troacctid]

Picking individual spells from the Spell Compendium and individual spells for them to replace seems like a lot of unnecessary extra work. Spell selection takes long enough already. Just give them Core + SC and be done with it, it'll save trouble for everyone involved.

Limiting splatbook diving for shapeshifting is wise; it reins in the power level of one of the most broken abilities in the game while also drastically cutting down on the required bookkeeping. If it were me, I'd go a step further and force players to spend time on actual in-game research to learn non-core forms (unless they encounter them during the adventure), but investing knowledge ranks is reasonable too.

[WhamBamSam]

1. I will not discuss RAW vs RAI with a player during play and I will ask that a decision made involving such ruling is respected... but the player may speak with me in private on the matter. Of note I am one who considers Rules as Intended/RAI or RaR/Rules As Reasonable before Rules as Written/RAW, which means I will likely make judgement calls some players may not like.RAI might not be quite as borked as RAW, but it is pretty borked. Being someone who likes RAW cheese very much and something of a jerk, my first response to this houserule would probably be "Xorvintaal Dragons and Exaarchs are very obviously intended to have the Telepathy special quality. All of the examples have it. The only reason the templates don't grant it is a weird mistake on the part of the writer that put their telepathic communication under languages instead. Can I take a job as a dragon's errand boy, 2 LA, and a feat for 100 mile mindsight?" Then I'd explain that I was mostly joking and try to play nicely.


2. Players using Polymorph spells and Druid Wildshaping will NOT have free access to any Monster Manual, more any creature they pick will need certain questions answered. "Does your character know anything about this creature? What do they know about this creature? Have they ever meet or seen such this creature or have they only read about these creature?
After such questions are answered they will be asked to make an appropriate Knowledge check and if passed they may change into that creature.How do you know what they know. Can the character attempt a relevant knowledge check for the form they want?


3. Only spells from the Player's Handbook are considered automatically available to spellcasters. Any other spells from any other source must be approved by DM and can only be taken if they have the spell they wish to take replace a spell they have or will have access to from the Player's Handbook.

4. Related to the above a player may choose 20 to 30 spells from the Spell Compendium, but these spell much replace a spell of the some or higher level . The spell replaced cannot be a spell the caster does no have access to, meaning a Good aligned Cleric cannot replace an Evil spell and a specialist Wizard cannot pick a spell from a forbidden school.
If a player wishes to cast spells from other sources they may do so follow th rules above, but must get my permission.Most of the broken spells are in the PHB. There's also enough crap spells that having to trade out spells from their list is more bookkeeping than anything else. Requiring approval for non-Core spells is fine for Clerics, Wizards, and Druids, but won't really do that much to slow them down. Other classes need the splat support. Give Paladins and Rangers the Spell Compendium without having to ask at least, and give serious thought to letting those classes and possibly Bards just book dive freely. Also, how do things like Advanced Learning for fixed list casters interact with these rules?


5. No Shadow Miracles or other class building tricks with argueable validility or means of potential abuse, as decided by myself. If a player wishes to challenge by decision I make, they may do so in private and explain to me why they feel it should be allowed. Moreno, the player will need to ease any considers I have of game balance and disruption of party dynamics.Fair enough. Running anything weird you might try to pull by the DM before trying it at the table is just standard protocol.

[Deadline]

I would like to request advice and suggestions when it comes to making House Rules, and what things I should focus on or give attention to.

Houserules are usually used to prevent things that a DM doesn't like or has issues with. Since you don't state what it is you are trying to prevent/fix with your houserules, there's not much to provide commentary and help on. I'll cover the houserules you do mention:


1. I will not discuss RAW vs RAI with a player during play and I will ask that a decision made involving such ruling is respected... but the player may speak with me in private on the matter. Of note I am one who considers Rules as Intended/RAI or RaR/Rules As Reasonable before Rules as Written/RAW, which means I will likely make judgement calls some players may not like.

This is reasonable enough. My rule when running was "to keep the game rolling, I'm almost certainly going to have to make a ruling here and there. Let's talk about the ruling after the session to see if a houserule needs to be implemented to cover the situation - don't argue it during game."


2. Players using Polymorph spells and Druid Wildshaping will NOT have free access to any Monster Manual, more any creature they pick will need certain questions answered. "Does your character know anything about this creature? What do they know about this creature? Have they ever meet or seen such this creature or have they only read about these creature?
After such questions are answered they will be asked to make an appropriate Knowledge check and if passed they may change into that creature.

I'm a bit confused on what you are doing here. An appropriate Knowledge check answers your first two questions. The third question just seems like a "if I don't like the creature, you don't get to change into it." option which negates the need for a roll. Better to just require a Knowledge check, and ban the forms you don't want used. Less arguing that way.


3. Only spells from the Player's Handbook are considered automatically available to spellcasters. Any other spells from any other source must be approved by DM and can only be taken if they have the spell they wish to take replace a spell they have or will have access to from the Player's Handbook.

There is enough chaff in the core spell lists that this is functionally pointless. What was the goal with this houserule?


5. No Shadow Miracles or other class building tricks with argueable validility or means of potential abuse, as decided by myself. If a player wishes to challenge by decision I make, they may do so in private and explain to me why they feel it should be allowed. Moreno, the player will need to ease any considers I have of game balance and disruption of party dynamics.

This one is just common sense.

[JonathonWilder]

Hmm, okay lets try this. Starting with my polymorph and wildshaping house rule

My intention for this house rule is to prevent players from creature diving so as to gain the most powerful (or broken if player controlled) creatures they can yet do it in such a way that isn't just me saying no. That and I like polymorph and wildshape myself and still want to allow players to have some fun with it.

One of the biggest complaints/concerns I have is players havng unrestricted access two creatures from Monster Manuals yet not putting forth any sort of work the game these things.

More there's the consideration if polymorph and wild shaping from an IC perspective. That of "sure, you my find this creature cool or helpful to the situation... but does your character have any idea what this is?" That and I feel Transmutation when it comes to shapeshifting to be a complicated art. One cannot simply change into a creature without any sort of knowledge or familiarity of it. Understanding of how the creature works and what it can do is needed or the spell with fail.

My answer was a knowledge roll, based on the type of crearure it was with modifiers that add or subtract from the difficulty of the roll based on familiarity and how much a player character knows about the creature they wish to change into. More time and research may very well need to be required based the rarity or the scarcity of information and the creature type of creature.
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My question for each of you is how should I write this out so that is understandable to the player, decently easy to implement, and doesn't take up a whole lot of space?

Also having a similar concept/house rule in place for summoning and calling.

In addition, perhaps also have it that summoning a creature can help with the research needed for the Knowledge roll needed for polymorph or wildshaping and vice versa.

[Telok]

For #2 may I suggest limiting it to MM1 critters plus things they have encountered and can make the 10+HD check on. That will be easier to remember and run. Plus anything you don't want them to turn into they don't encounter.

For the spells. How do you adjucate the Beguiler and Warmage classes? What about their advanced learning class features? Have you considered how this works with feats like Arcane Disciple and prestige classes like Urpriest and Rainbow Servant?

Do you plan on addressing things like Ebon Eyes, efreet calling & dominating, and Iron Heart Surge?

Oh, I should explain the efreet thing. You call and bind them normally, then use Intimidate to fear then combined with Spectral Hand and Bestow Curse to shave their numbers down. Extract two wishes and kill it with a cold spell. Repeat daily for a week. Plus it's quite doable with only the PH.

[Honest Tiefling]

The PHB has many broken spells, but I think it might be simpler to say that additional spells are a case by case basis. Might make magic seem more esoteric if a player is a part of a tradition that are the only people with a particular spell. Could be a problem if there are multiple wizards, but I have to admit, I like the idea of meeting a wizard from a rival school and trading spells once we have earned each other's respect.

As for monsters, I can actually kinda see that from a story perspective, that a character gets more powerful due to knowledge. I'd throw in hooks of arch-druids using rituals if the character impresses/talks to them enough. Maybe say that a character can start with a few monsters if their knowledge skills/backstory support it. Things from Frostburn or Sandstorm come to mind as being a bit silly for a tundra/desert druid not to have some idea of things...

Have a rule that people run their intended builds by you, might reduce headaches in the future with a bit of prevention. And you have more time to work on a compromise.

[JonathonWilder]

For #2 may I suggest limiting it to MM1 critters plus things they have encountered and can make the 10+HD check on. That will be easier to remember and run. Plus anything you don't want them to turn into they don't encounter.
Possibly


For the spells. How do you adjucate the Beguiler and Warmage classes? What about their advanced learning class features? Have you considered how this works with feats like Arcane Disciple and prestige classes like Urpriest and Rainbow Servant?
Actually I will be encourage use of tier 3 specialist casters such as Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necromancer. I may actually offer Grod's Giants and Graveyards tier 3 classes if a player want to use them.

Onto the question, I can perhaps allow players pick none core spells if they use such classes.

Arcane Disciple goes with No Shadow Miracle and other tricks, nothing gained counts as being on the Sorceter/Wizard spell list when interacting with feats, abilities, or PrC.
For th rest you may have to.explain the issues.


Do you plan on addressing things like Ebon Eyes, efreet calling & dominating, and Iron Heart Surge?
Again explain the problems, most likely these things may be no to reasons of common sense and balance.


Oh, I should explain the efreet thing. You call and bind them normally, then use Intimidate to fear then combined with Spectral Hand and Bestow Curse to shave their numbers down. Extract two wishes and kill it with a cold spell. Repeat daily for a week. Plus it's quite doable with only the PH. Shakes heads, players actually try this sort of thing? Really? I would say no to such, as wishes are not to be overused or misused will not be handed out willy nilly.

Also I have another rule I will add, watch for it.

[icefractal]

Re: Wishes - you should probably just say that any form of Wish costs the user XP. Even as a Supernatural ability. That means that Efreeti will not only be very reluctant to grant them, but even if the PCs straight-up mind-control them, they can only squeeze a limited number of Wishes out.

Re: RAW vs RAI ... Ok, this one isn't inherently unreasonable. However - it gives me kind of a bad feeling, because it's the exact kind of thing that railroady GMs use to justify their ass-pulling. I'm not saying that applies to you at all, it's just that if you walk down the street wearing a mask and carrying a knife, people will be suspicious even if you have a perfectly good explanation for it. Not sure what the best solution is - maybe phrase this in a bit less absolute of a manner? And definitely include that if you change how a class feature / feat / whatever works, players who are affected can make changes to their characters.

Re: Polymorph. Sounds fine, basically. Mainly because those spells were pretty crazy to begin with. Wouldn't hurt to say what the Knowledge DCs are going to be. I think that Druids, especially, would want to know that kind of thing ahead of time.

Re: Spells. The replacing mechanism sounds like more work than needed, and isn't, IMO, much of a balance feature, as the majority of all spells are already chaff. Personally I'd just go with something like: Core + Spell Compendium to start. Other spells need approval on a per-spell basis, and are less common to find in-game.

Re: Material Components. Ones with a cost, sure, I think most people enforce that. Do you mean also requiring individual tracking of guano balls instead of just having a spell-component pouch? It's not unworkable, but I don't think it's actually a balancing factor. Some of the best spells have no components or easy components, and most of the spells with difficult components aren't even that good.

[JonathonWilder]

-snip-
I have actually been considering a line from the AD&D Wish spell as well for more powerful wishes: "Other forms of wishes, however, cause the spellcaster to weaken (-3 on Strength) and require 2d4 days of bed rest due to the stresses the wish places upon time, space, and his body. Regardless of what is wished for, the exact terminology of the wish spell is likely to be carried out. Casting a wish spell ages the caster five years."
I feel this would discourage players from abusing the Wish spell, or at least limit its use.


The first rule involving RAW and RAI is thier mostly to discourage players using poor wording or exact words to get some sort of cheese or for minimaxing.


Which is something that I coul us help coming up with. I know what I want when it comes to Polymorph spells but without advise it eould probably b trialan error at first with a bit of DM fiat.


The problem is though I want to add some sort of limitation to full casters, as there are way too many spells in the Spell Compendium to simply allow open access to it. That and I believe iin the ideal that player wants one thing, they will need to give something else up. You wan this neat spell you have to give up a different spell of equal level that you can cast.


The reason my house rules bring up the material components is the fact that many just tossed in the side and not use it. More players and members in this site often come off as thinking that being a wizard is OP wjen there are costs built into spells. Costs that minimaxers often look to getting around using whatever method they have available to them.

I want to encourage the idea that magic is expensive, that it takes time and effort and isn't something you can just throw around without consequence. Players wont always be able to stop in the middle of an adventure so the wizard can memerize their spells again. They will need to consider their resources and the spells avaliable to them.

Being a wizard is not and should not be seen as an easy path to power, and there are risks and challanges to being such a class. With great power comes great effort, time, and responsibility.

[Deadline]

The first rule involving RAW and RAI is thier mostly to discourage players using poor wording or exact words to get some sort of cheese or for minimaxing.

Why not just say that for your houserule?


Which is something that I coul us help coming up with. I know what I want when it comes to Polymorph spells but without advise it eould probably b trialan error at first with a bit of DM fiat.

Ban the forms you don't want used. Either you are going to say no to them, or you aren't. Trying to construct an artificially flaky rule to hide behind is a poor choice. Own your decision, and give you reasons. If you give wiggle room, that's where arguments tend to happen.

As to what to do for Knowledge checks for different forms, if the check alone isn't sufficient for you, maybe let the player have a small number of forms they are already familiar with before the game starts, and then require them to make appropriate Knowledge checks to learn new forms. Maybe they can make one Knowledge check in this way per day, and must succeed on X number of checks about a given monster before you allow it to be added to their list of known forms?


The problem is though I want to add some sort of limitation to full casters, as there are way too many spells in the Spell Compendium to simply allow open access to it. That and I believe iin the ideal that player wants one thing, they will need to give something else up. You wan this neat spell you have to give up a different spell of equal level that you can cast.

And we are saying that the core book contains enough crummy spells that this trade is pointless. As in, it does not effect balance at all.


The reason my house rules bring up the material components is the fact that many just tossed in the side and not use it. More players and members in this site often come off as thinking that being a wizard is OP wjen there are costs built into spells. Costs that minimaxers often look to getting around using whatever method they have available to them.

That's because, according to the rules, cheap material components are meaningless as long as a spellcaster has a spell component pouch. Much like you don't make the fighter sharpen his sword and clean his armor when the party makes camp, you also don't make the spellcasters gather trivial components. But if you go this route, be prepared for play to slow down when the party stops what they are doing to go "component gathering". Because even the fighter in the party isn't stupid enough to barge into the dungeon with a wizard who can't cast the spells he needs to survive. Or more likely, a wizard who likes his party and doesn't want to be forced into boring poop-gathering will just pick up Eschew Materials.


I want to encourage the idea that magic is expensive, that it takes time and effort and isn't something you can just throw around without consequence. Players wont always be able to stop in the middle of an adventure so the wizard can memerize their spells again. They will need to consider their resources and the spells avaliable to them.

At low-level, sure. You don't even need to do anything different to make this happen. Limited spell slots takes care of most of this, and with low level spells, it's difficult to set up a secure place to rest. Add in a time constraint like, "the evil cult is going to sacrifice their captives in an hour, you must stop them!" and you don't have to worry about the 5-minute adventuring day either (again, at least at low levels).

Have you done much high level (above 10th level) play? Because these concerns are not the sorts of things that are challenging to a higher level party. This reminds me of the recent thread where someone was asking "how do I make doors a challenge to someone who can d-door at will?" The answer was, "You don't, you use different things to challenge him." It's the same concern with DM's who try to use pits as a challenge for adventurers with flight.

Another option for you might be alternative magic systems like fatigue magic or recharge magic.

[Telok]

So are you flat out banning Arcane Disciple and PrCs like Mage of the Arcane order because they add spells to the spells known lists? You may want to make that explicit instead of implicitly considering it to be like Shadow Miracle. Also you may want to check RAW/RAI disconnect there. While the Shadow Miracle is RAW it isn't RAI, but Arcane Disciple is just the abiliy to cast one spell of each spell level once a day off a domain list if the arcane caster has a high enough wisdom. That feat actually works as intended, very limited access to one of your god's domain spells at the cost of a feat, some skill points, and a high wisdom.

Likewise there are a number of divine prestige classes that add domains and spells. You're affecting the Extra Spell feat too. If you are taking all the spell list expansions off the table, classes and feats (and there are magic items too, rune staves and domain droughts/staves) then seriously consider making it explicit.

In my games I limit casters by reinstituting the AD&D ten minutes per spell or slot preparation time. Reserve feats became very popular and there were very few full casters.

One thing you don't address is scry and die tactics. You may want to consider that.

[jedipotter]

I think your houserules are great. They are close to a lot of mine.

No questions or complaints or anything else that disrupts the game. If a player does not like a call, ruling, or interpretation or whatever, they are free to bring it up any time we are not playing.




One of the biggest complaints/concerns I have is players havng unrestricted access two creatures from Monster Manuals yet not putting forth any sort of work the game these things.

I'm not a fan of the knowledge skills, it's way to easy to make high rolls and worse. Then just use some simple rules: For wildshape a druid has to pick one primary area, and two secondary area from the area they grew up in. Then they can pick pick a number of animals equal to their wisdom score, that live in the areas and are very common. And they must always have more primary animals then either secondary one. This nicely limits druids to under 20 animals, eliminates things like dinosaurs and keeps wildshape under control.

Polymorph is much the same, except it's intelligence. You just get to pick one creature, that is very common and native to your homeland per point.

Plus....I have the fun System shock rolls from 2E, so when you change your shape you might get hurt or die AND you might loose your mind and ''become the animal/monster'' houserules.







Also having a similar concept/house rule in place for summoning and calling.

The one creature per intelligent point works here too...


Though I also have feats and magic items and spells that can add a creature to your list in a couple ways. Animal amulets give you a ''free' animal, for example.


For spells, i have worked out a whole spell rarity system. Spellcasters only know the common spells of their home area. Anything else takes lots of time and effort. And I don't do ''all the PH spells are common''....I hate that.

[Troacctid]

Then just use some simple rules: For wildshape a druid has to pick one primary area, and two secondary area from the area they grew up in. Then they can pick pick a number of animals equal to their wisdom score, that live in the areas and are very common. And they must always have more primary animals then either secondary one. This nicely limits druids to under 20 animals, eliminates things like dinosaurs and keeps wildshape under control.

Polymorph is much the same, except it's intelligence. You just get to pick one creature, that is very common and native to your homeland per point.

See, that's way more difficult--for everyone involved--than "Core only, done." And it also sounds miserable for the player. Picking all your wildshape forms for all 20 levels in advance? As a player, that's the point where I'd say "Screw it, I'm taking the PHB2 shapeshifting variant."

[jedipotter]

See, that's way more difficult--for everyone involved--than "Core only, done." And it also sounds miserable for the player. Picking all your wildshape forms for all 20 levels in advance? As a player, that's the point where I'd say "Screw it, I'm taking the PHB2 shapeshifting variant."


It is not hard to pick forms for 20 levels.

And house rules are needed as ''option A'' only works for some players: where the player just agrees not to cause a problem. So no Ebberon dinosaurs, dire creatures or that dumb turtle....or any other animal the DM does not like.

Though the PHB2 variant is great too, for the players that can't do option A.

[Rickshaw]

Depending on the skill/power/optimization level of the group you could let them increase 2 ability scores every four levels instead of one.

Most of my players really appreciate it, and they feel much more powerful, even though the extra couple points don't really influence power levels that much.

[Der_DWSage]

There is a kernel of a good idea in the wildshape rules, though. The unmitigated access is an issue in regards to power level, and could stand a nerf.

Rather than use Jedipotter's rules though, I'd suggest something more akin to this. 'You have access to all animals listed under the Animals and Dire Animals listings in the MMI in regards to Wildshape. At every level after 5th when you would gain additional uses of Wildshape or different forms of Wildshape, you may pick an additional creature to assume the form of, subject to GM approval. When you gain access to Plant shape, you gain access to all plant creatures in the MMI. When you gain access to Elemental shape, you gain access to all Elemental creatures in the MMI.'

This lets them have their flexibility, limited book diving, and gives them a carrot they can chase after as well. Plus, y'know, the rider of 'Subject to GM approval' should stop any Desmodu Hunting Bat level shenanigans.

I've not played 3.5 in ages though-I've been doing Pathfinder all this time. You might consider just using those rules for Wildshaping (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid) instead.

[Astralia123]

I have not read most of the replies, but I've got the feeling that your are putting unnecessary restrains on your players, which could enrage them at some future point of time.

I'd suggest you don't make things extra complicated.
Say, players may transform into a creature she knows, either by answering the questions or by a successful knowledge check. If they have to do both, then the effect is that "the DM does not want transform spells at all", which you can totally just tell them directly.