Schock Trooper doubt

[Zaetar]

Here is the thing... normally when using Power attack, you get

-AC -> +Damage

But chock trooper changes that... and I'm not sure what goes where now.

Doest ti go to the AC or to the Attack roll? I end up with +dmg, +ac -roll, or +dmg -ac =roll?

[heavyfuel]

You're wrong. Using Power Attack normally you get -Attack +Damage.

With Shock Trooper you get -AC +Damage.

This makes it so that you're easier to hit after charging, but makes it so that your charge is more likely to actually hit when using Power Attack

[Merellis]

Normally with Power Attack you can up your damage by lowering your BaB for the attack.

With Shock Trooper, you lower your AC instead for the increased damage.

[BWR]

Here is the thing... normally when using Power attack, you get

-AC -> +Damage

But chock trooper changes that... and I'm not sure what goes where now.

Doest ti go to the AC or to the Attack roll? I end up with +dmg, +ac -roll, or +dmg -ac =roll?

Power Attack normally allows you to subtract from your attack roll and add to the damage roll. It does not affect your AC in any way, which is what you seem to be thinking.
Shock Trooper allows you to assign some of your Power Attack penalty to AC instead of the attack roll, as long as you charge first.

Say you have BAB +10, a modified attack bonus of 19/+14, Power Attack and Shock Trooper, and an AC of 25. PA normally allows you to subtract up to your BAB (10, in this case) from your attack roll and add that amount to damage (or double the amount if you are wielding a two-handed weapon). You could Power Attack for 10, making your modified attack bonus +9/+4 that round, but your AC is still 25

Assuming you always use Power Attack for the maximum amount (equal to your BAB), with Shock Trooper, you have to charge (+2 attack, -2 AC), so your basic attack is now +21, and your AC 23. You can still Power Attack for up to 10 points, but you can assign them as you will among attack bonus and AC. You could PA so your attack bonus is +11/+6 and your AC 23, you could take 5 from your attack bonus and 5 from your AC giving you an attack bonus of +16/+11 and AC 18, you could assign the entire PA penalty to AC giving you an attack bonus of +21/+16 and an AC of 13, or any combination between the two extremes.

[Zaetar]

Oh yes sorry, power attack gives -roll, sorry had shock trooper in my head for the last hour. :P

[Zaetar]

Wait, so I can actually distribute it how i see fit? Interesting... But i guess the idea is to get lots of -AC to get in exchange tons of +dmg without reducing the roll, right?

[Deadline]

Wait, so I can actually distribute it how i see fit? Interesting... But i guess the idea is to get lots of -AC to get in exchange tons of +dmg without reducing the roll, right?

Yes. For extra fun, make sure you have a decent Dex mod and pick up the Robilar's Gambit feat from PHB2. Then your enemy may think twice about attacking you while your AC is lowered and your damage is cranked. :smalltongue:

[KillianHawkeye]

But i guess the idea is to get lots of -AC to get in exchange tons of +dmg without reducing the roll, right?

Yes, with the assumption that you can kill everything standing near the end point of your charge and thereby negate the liability caused by reducing your AC. Hence why Shock Trooper is typically paired with a means of getting pounce.

[Vogonjeltz]

Wait, so I can actually distribute it how i see fit? Interesting... But i guess the idea is to get lots of -AC to get in exchange tons of +dmg without reducing the roll, right?

Shock Trooper provides 3 tactical maneuvers, one of which is Heedless Charge. Bear in mind, this requires you take a power attack penalty of -5 or more to use. So if you only did 5 and assigned it all to AC you'd suffer a -7 to AC for any return attack because you can only use it off a Charge.

[Elkad]

And then the rest of the bad guys take a step (or pounce on their own) and use regular power attack (vs your weakened AC) to trash you. Even worse if someone uses counter-charge to leave you prone as well so they all get another +4 to hit.

Shock Trooper is dangerous as hell if the rest of your party hasn't got the battlefield locked down. Which is the point. Use with caution.

[Zaetar]

Well... it wouldnt really work without some extra range then, right? Or i'd be omnomnoming all the attacks of oportunity before i even get to land the hit from the charge. It's something i recently had problems with, facing 3 large monsters, i'd have been almost insta killed if i charged at anything because they were next to each other, basically making me be victim of their attacks of oportunity.

Is there anything for that? To nullify AoO?

[Tohsaka Rin]

Sure, it's called having reach of your own.

More reach than the other guy, and as high a Combat Reflexes total as you can get.

Changes to your to-hit/damage with Power Attack remain until the start of your next turn. If you tank your AC, and keep your to-hit high, you'll be able to painfully smack anyone getting close enough to hit you, provided you have reach, and the AoOs to deal with them as they come.

Knockback is a must, or barring that, a way to stop them from actually getting close. A simple trench would do nicely, for example. Or difficult terrain. Or Grease.

Plenty of ways, so ask your local wizard/sorcerer/cleric nicely for some support.

[DarkSonic1337]

DC25 tumble check to avoid attacks of opportunity while moving full speed.

Get your own reach, and knockdown people who try to approach you.

Robilar's Gambit and/or Karmic Strike make attacking you pretty dangerous.

Miss chances can soften the impact of lowered AC (and miss chances are a thing you want to eventually get anyway, because it's expensive to keep AC up at relevant levels without being a caster).

[Gwendol]

Well... it wouldnt really work without some extra range then, right? Or i'd be omnomnoming all the attacks of oportunity before i even get to land the hit from the charge. It's something i recently had problems with, facing 3 large monsters, i'd have been almost insta killed if i charged at anything because they were next to each other, basically making me be victim of their attacks of oportunity.

Is there anything for that? To nullify AoO?

As noted below, if you can tumble at full speed you can do so as part of the charge (no AoO).

Or you can be Large and have reach of your own, or use a reach weapon, or both.

Or you can charge using the Battle Leader's Charge (explicitly no AoO) maneuver (ToB).

[TypoNinja]

Yes, with the assumption that you can kill everything standing near the end point of your charge and thereby negate the liability caused by reducing your AC. Hence why Shock Trooper is typically paired with a means of getting pounce.

I just did this with a were tiger last game, finally reached the level where it came online. It's...

Effective is a technically accurate word, though it lacks the vehemence necessary to establish just how silly the outcome was. Like, I may never again use this combo in play. The results are on a power scale so far above your average published adventure.

For the sake of your poor DM, please be aware of the kind of smackdown you are about to unleash if you attempt to use this combo in play.

[Deox]

For the sake of your poor DM, please be aware of the kind of smackdown you are about to unleash if you attempt to use this combo in play.

Shock Trooper + Wolf Pack Tactics + Supreme Cleave.

Never fought opponents 'in formation' ever again.

[KillianHawkeye]

Shock Trooper + Wolf Pack Tactics + Supreme Cleave.

Never fought opponents 'in formation' ever again.

And now we've highlighted the problem with using OP strategies in an average game of D&D. It either teaches the DM to optimize his own enemy characters/monsters, or to simply find ways to negate your ability to use your super special tricks. Build an ubercharger with reach, or just a wizard with an obsession with fireballs? Watch as you suddenly never have enemies standing within thirty feet of each other.

[HighWater]

And now we've highlighted the problem with using OP strategies in an average game of D&D. It either teaches the DM to optimize his own enemy characters/monsters, or to simply find ways to negate your ability to use your super special tricks. Build an ubercharger with reach, or just a wizard with an obsession with fireballs? Watch as you suddenly never have enemies standing within thirty feet of each other.
Come to think of it, enemies that belong together yet are separated by >10 meters is kinda silly... That's a big distance to be from someone who is watching your back. But hey, fireballllll...

Of course, the Wizard has it easier. A little deployment of Sculpt Spell (MM +1) and you can at least still hit 4 guys with that spell if your DM is being a db and putting so much space between them. That übercharger? Yeah, that's gonna be more work...

[Deox]

And now we've highlighted the problem with using OP strategies in an average game of D&D. It either teaches the DM to optimize his own enemy characters/monsters, or to simply find ways to negate your ability to use your super special tricks. Build an ubercharger with reach, or just a wizard with an obsession with fireballs? Watch as you suddenly never have enemies standing within thirty feet of each other.

Was a fairly high-op game. That character was tame in comparison to others.

[Zaetar]

May AoO question was referring to charges. It doesnt matter how much range i have if i end up right next to a target when charging, i'll eat the AoOs anyway.


As noted below, if you can tumble at full speed you can do so as part of the charge (no AoO).

Or you can be Large and have reach of your own, or use a reach weapon, or both.

Or you can charge using the Battle Leader's Charge (explicitly no AoO) maneuver (ToB).

Tumble uses Dexterity... and the character im having doubts of is barbarian :x so i guess nope
I really liked that maneuver, i'll see how i can fit warblade in there...

1 barb.pounce
1 power attack
2 fighter.cleave
3 fighter.improved bull rush
3 leap attack
4 warb
5 warb
6 warb.shock trooper <battle leader's charge maneuver>

If i do that in a goliath or half-ogre, do i get -20% exp? Both have barbarian as favoured class, and after that i'd be giving levels to barbarian for more rage/day and Primeval prestige class.

[Tohsaka Rin]

May AoO question was referring to charges. It doesnt matter how much range i have if i end up right next to a target when charging, i'll eat the AoOs anyway.

You charge until you're close enough for your weapon to hit.

Don't you think it's kind of silly to charge right up to a guy while you're using a reach weapon, when most of those weapons can't attack adjacent enemies?

[Zaetar]

Mhmm sounds logical... guess i was too used to the 5' range. But how about the -20% exp?

[Blackhawk748]

Mhmm sounds logical... guess i was too used to the 5' range. But how about the -20% exp?

Wow your DM uses the multi class xp penalty? First time ive seen that. And from what i can see, no you shouldnt take any xp penalty as your classes are all within 1 level of each other, except barbarian but thats your favored class so your ok.

[Extra Anchovies]

Mhmm sounds logical... guess i was too used to the 5' range. But how about the -20% exp?

Only if your DM is a stickler and enforces multiclass penalties.

[Zaetar]

Well, with this i can conclude that i was right here on getting frustrated when brainstorming on how to stick up all this... thank you guys.