Expected ability scores by level chart?

[Alent]

I'm trying to find a chart that shows what stats/stat boosting items and manuals I can expect characters to have at various points in their career, I remember seeing some solid discussion on the topic come up during a Vow of Poverty thread a year or so ago, but there's so many VoP threads I'm having trouble hitting on the right one with search.

I remember from someone in the thread mentioned there was a creature progression chart in one of the rulebooks that paralleled the average WBL chart, and I think I found that in monster manual 2. Are there any other similar charts?

I'd like to find or build such a chart so I know when to stop saying "no" to things like +4 stat items and when to seed loot for items the party has overlooked.

The first place I checked was the 3.5 list of necessary items, which was immensely useful for special abilities, but is silent on ability scores.

Any help is appreciated!

For points of reference: I'm not allowing template stacking or VoP, and have replaced core fighter and monk with initiators.

[aleucard]

If they're SAD, then the attribute in question can (at level 1) probably be expected to be 18 (assuming point-buy or phenomenal dice roll) + 2 to 4 (racial bonus, don't think there is one that goes higher without having LA) = 20 to 22. Higher, and we start leaving my area of instant-recall knowledge, but early 30s by level 10 sounds doable if you go full-tilt, maybe sooner with certain attributes.

[OldTrees1]

What do you want in the chart?

Stat items based on per encounter wealth by CR X?
Stat items based on WBL of NPCs of CR X?
Stat items based on WBL of PCs of ECL X?
...

For example:
A PC spending 10%/25%/50% of their wealth on a specific ability enhancer would pick a +X one up at ECL Y

Bonus10%25%50%
+29-106-75
+414-15118-9
+617-181311-12

Tomes not included since you can't upgrade an inherent bonus. However a similar calculation could be done by the player.

Note that this is different from the wealth per encounter chart. Also you can aggregate the wealth per encounter over several encounters. 5 CR 3 encounters would have a total payout of 4500gp. This could be a single Gloves of Dex +2 or various smaller items. Alternatively you could use the item levels from MIC to get guideline.

[eggynack]

+ 2 to 4 (racial bonus, don't think there is one that goes higher without having LA)
Anthropomorphic bat from savage species and jermalaine from the MM II both have +6 wisdom with no LA.

[Astralia123]

It varies greatly depending on your PC starting buys and the frequency they encounter magic items, and what races they start with.

Just try to build a moderately optimized character (according to your campaign) and you get answer.

[Lans]

Anthropomorphic bat from savage species and jermalaine from the MM II both have +6 wisdom with no LA.

Dragonborn mongrelfolk gives the same to constitution

[Alent]

What do you want in the chart?

Stat items based on per encounter wealth by CR X?
Stat items based on WBL of NPCs of CR X?
Stat items based on WBL of PCs of ECL X?
...

For example:
A PC spending 10%/25%/50% of their wealth on a specific ability enhancer would pick a +X one up at ECL Y

Bonus10%25%50%
+29-106-75
+414-15118-9
+617-181311-12

Tomes not included since you can't upgrade an inherent bonus. However a similar calculation could be done by the player.

Note that this is different from the wealth per encounter chart. Also you can aggregate the wealth per encounter over several encounters. 5 CR 3 encounters would have a total payout of 4500gp. This could be a single Gloves of Dex +2 or various smaller items. Alternatively you could use the item levels from MIC to get guideline.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking of, don't know why I didn't think of building percent of WBL groupings like that. (I'm blaming a lack of sleep) Thank you very much! :smallbiggrin:

I was mainly trying to figure out by what point someone should graduate from +2's to +4's, etc. The norm at the table is to sacrifice everything for the permanent bonuses of stat items, and I want to encourage getting other kinds of magic items and actually see them use consumables. I think I'll actually see this happen if I tell them I'll be seeding the loot with stat items when I'm ready for them to get them, but I'm not sure.

I may also try a homebrew tweak I saw while making another go at it yesterday where you drop the stat items entirely, but increase the number of stat points to be had at level up. There's actually a few variants on this from what I've seen, after hammering out some scenarios after seeing a forum post on it yesterday, today I stumbled across a thread where Grod the Giant did something similar. I really like this in concept, mostly because it makes the players a little less dependent on finding a Magemart with the right size of Christmas Tree Lightbulbs.

My group has also never used the Tomes/Manuals or any other kind of inherent bonus, so aside from optimization guides I've seen either here or elsewhere I know nothing about when they should come online as options. The Caster Level requirement for crafting them is just up there. I'll probably just leave them out unless someone really wants them or is suffering from a bad build with a MAD class.

Anyway, thanks for the help, that was useful!

[OldTrees1]

I was mainly trying to figure out by what point someone should graduate from +2's to +4's, etc. The norm at the table is to sacrifice everything for the permanent bonuses of stat items, and I want to encourage getting other kinds of magic items and actually see them use consumables. I think I'll actually see this happen if I tell them I'll be seeding the loot with stat items when I'm ready for them to get them, but I'm not sure.

Based on their extreme desire and your desire for diversity, I would use the 50% column as a target. As 5th, 9th and 12th levels approach, let the +2/+4/+6 items start appearing in the treasure troves and on the tougher enemies.

As for Tomes, I have never handed them out as a DM and only even bought(from a store) +4 Tomes as a PC.