Question about LA vs CR

[Max Caysey]

Hi guys...

I have always thought that character level was equal to CR. So a level 20 wizard would be CR 20. Now when reading about level adjustment, it says that if a creature has level adjustment +5, like that of the shade it counts as being 5 level higher. In terms of how much xp it needs to advance a level and starting gear. But it also says that a shade only has CR +2.

So if we have a level 5 shade wizard what CR is it? And also should the shades SR of character level +11 be calculated with or without the LA?

[Dunditschia]

Use LA for XP calculation, but the CR for the CR. So a level 5 shade wizard would gain xp like a level 10 character, but be a CR 7 challenge. This is usually because of abilities that are very useful for a player, but only of limited usability in a single encounter, such as many at-will abilities.

I'm not sure how the Shades spell resistance words it, but for Drow it's 11 + class levels, which would not include their LA.

[The Insaniac]

SR is almost always some number+HD. I think I remember seeing a monster whose SR was based on its CR but I'm sure.

[Telonius]

Part of the problem might be which template you're looking at. There are several different creatures and templates that are called "Shade" or something similar. Depending on which one you're looking at, they might have different level adjustments, challenge ratings, or racial hit dice. What's your source on this critter?

If a creature has Level Adjustment of +X, it counts as (its number of regular levels) + X, as far as XP requirements. So if you have a LA +5 creature or template, it counts as five levels higher. If a Shade (or Shadow, or whatever) has LA of +5 and 5 levels of Wizard, it counts as effectively a level 10 character as far as how much XP you need to level up. You'd need to get as much XP as a Human would need to get to level 11, in order for your Shade Wizard to get to Wizard 6. (That's assuming you don't have any racial hitdice to deal with).

Spell Resistance would only be based on how many actual levels (or racial hit dice) it has. So assuming your Shade Wizard5 doesn't have any racial hitdice, it would be based on character level; so it would be 16.

Challenge Rating is not the same thing as Level Adjustment. Most templates include a line about what adjustment (if any) the template will give to the base creature. It's kind of tricky to say how that would interact without seeing the monster entry or template specs, but I'll assume that Shade is a template you're adding to a human. Wizard5 would be 5 associated class levels. If the template gives +2 CR, the total CR would be 7. You'd get as much XP for defeating this Shade as you would for defeating any other CR 7 creature.

[Max Caysey]

Im using the one from FRCS, but with the erreta.

[Flickerdart]

The reason many templates have (much) higher LA than CR is that they provide abilities that are much more potent in the hands of players than NPCs. For instance, the +5 disparity between a vampire's CR and ECL is due to ridiculous shenanigans (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?327984-3-5-Vampire-shenanigans) that being able to spawn minions opens up for a PC. Other templates might grant things that synergize well with class features a monster wouldn't usually have access to.

In almost all cases though, LA is set way too high.

[Snails]

I agree that LA is almost always too high.

An illustrative example of why LA and CR would be different would be Fast Healing. Fast Healing 5 tacked on to PC can be quite good -- not nearly as good as it is "priced" but it has clear value when used with certain easily accessible tactics. However tacked onto, say, a Hill Giant it just does not matter. PCs who fight Hill Giants will kill it in 1-3 rounds anyway. What are the odds that the players would even notice Fast Healing 5 on a Hill giant before it is dead, dead, dead?