Quick celerity question

[Max Caysey]

Hi yall

I was just wondering if it is actually possible, with the right feats to counterspell celerity? Or more generally, can immediate actions be counterspelled?

[Curmudgeon]

Any spell you can identify with a Spellcraft check can be counterspelled; there are special rules for counterspelling. Celerity has a Verbal component, so it's possible.

[Calimehter]

A "quick" Celerity question. Heh heh . . .

[Max Caysey]

Any spell you can identify with a Spellcraft check can be counterspelled; there are special rules for counterspelling. Celerity has a Verbal component, so it's possible.

It was my understanding that the verbal component, takes no time, hence the immediate action?

[Extra Anchovies]

It was my understanding that the verbal component, takes no time, hence the immediate action?

If the opponent has some way to counterspell as an immediate action, or if they've readied an action to counterspell, then they get a chance to counterspell.

[Max Caysey]

If the opponent has some way to counterspell as an immediate action, or if they've readied an action to counterspell, then they get a chance to counterspell.

What if it was silent? As in the silent spell metamagic feat.

[With a box]

Then you won't able to conterspell it (don't know what spell is casting) but you can counterspell whatever spell that casted in standard action got by celerity. he won't use celerity to move or swing his dagger, will he?

[Extra Anchovies]

What if it was silent? As in the silent spell metamagic feat.

It still has somatic components, and thus can still be identified (the Spellcraft description for IDing a spell requires that you must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components, not necessarily both). If it were silenced and stilled, then it wouldn't be identifiable. But even if the check to recognize fails, they can still counterspell with Dispel Magic.

[Curmudgeon]

It still has somatic components, and thus can still be identified (the Spellcraft description for IDing a spell requires that you must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components, not necessarily both).
Your memory appears to be playing tricks on you. Celerity has no component other than Verbal.

[Extra Anchovies]

Your memory appears to be playing tricks on you. Celerity has no component other than Verbal.

Ooops :smallredface: My brain isn't really functioning this evening, it seems.

ETA: Silenced Celerity couldn't be countered, then. Probably not even with Dispel Magic.

[DeAnno]

Battlemagic Perception will let you counter it anyways, even silenced, IIRC

[Cruiser1]

Battlemagic Perception will let you counter it anyways, even silenced, IIRC
Yes, and also allowing this is wearing a Ring of Spell-Battle (MIC). :smallsmile:

[With a box]

Battlemagic Perception will let you counter it anyways, even silenced, IIRC
No you can't if it is not your turn.

determination happens quickly enough that you can
attempt to counter the spell as a free action.
and you can't use free action if it isn't your turn.

[bekeleven]

Duelward, then, if you're playing BMP by RAW. You'll use BMP or the ring to identify componentless spells, then counter with Duelward.

[Cruiser1]

you can't use free action if it isn't your turn.
At least some free actions can be used off turn. :smallsmile: Presumably the free action counterspell provided by Battlemagic Perception is in this category.

speaking is a free action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#freeActions) that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn

[Max Caysey]

Then you won't able to conterspell it (don't know what spell is casting) but you can counterspell whatever spell that casted in standard action got by celerity. he won't use celerity to move or swing his dagger, will he?

How is this possible, when your actions granted by celerety happens instantaneously? When wiz A casts celerity, he is granted a standard action, that tales place instantaneously, like timestop, meaning, that caster b has no clue what caster A has been doing, since for caster B the time passed as normal. Instantaneously. Celerity does not only give you an ekstra standard action, but a free standard action.

[Curmudgeon]

How is this possible, when your actions granted by celerety happens instantaneously? When wiz A casts celerity, he is granted a standard action, that tales place instantaneously, like timestop ...
You're confusing the English adverb with the D&D spell duration term.
Instantaneous

The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting. There are no apparent time rounds with Celerity. (Also, Time Stop doesn't have an Instantaneous duration.) The consequence of Celerity is the standard action the caster gets to squeeze into the time normally reserved for other creatures' turns. If that standard action is used to cast a spell with detectable components, it can be counterspelled by a readied action as specified in the rules. Celerity makes the spellcaster a little faster ahead of their normal turn but slower (dazed; unable to act) later. Overall the spellcaster is taking fewer total actions than they normally would be allowed over two rounds; they're just able to shift some of that action relative to other characters' turns.

[With a box]

How is this possible, when your actions granted by celerety happens instantaneously? When wiz A casts celerity, he is granted a standard action, that tales place instantaneously, like timestop, meaning, that caster b has no clue what caster A has been doing, since for caster B the time passed as normal. Instantaneously. Celerity does not only give you an ekstra standard action, but a free standard action.
It isn't relevant. You saw the components of
Spell and identify spell and counter it.
In dndtool :
When you cast this spell, you can immediately take a standard action, as if you had readied an action.
And I'm sure that I can counter readied spell

[Max Caysey]

You're confusing the English adverb with the D&D spell duration term. There are no apparent time rounds with Celerity. (Also, Time Stop doesn't have an Instantaneous duration.) The consequence of Celerity is the standard action the caster gets to squeeze into the time normally reserved for other creatures' turns. If that standard action is used to cast a spell with detectable components, it can be counterspelled by a readied action as specified in the rules. Celerity makes the spellcaster a little faster ahead of their normal turn but slower (dazed; unable to act) later. Overall the spellcaster is taking fewer total actions than they normally would be allowed over two rounds; they're just able to shift some of that action relative to other characters' turns.

My point is, that when Wizard A is in the time bubble of celerity, time effectively stands still for that standard action. So Wizard B cant react to the things Wiz A is doing because that standard action takes effect instant, with no apparent happening for wizard B. Just like the actions happening in timestop cant be interupted, because it happens so fast that it takes no time at all, its like time stants still. This is the same with celerity. Wizard B does not know what is goin on inside celerity time, because he experience nothing except for the casting of celerity, which I guess can be counterspelled with either a readied action of reactive counterspell, but what happend while inside this time bubble only the one inside the time bubble knows.

[Curmudgeon]

My point is, that when Wizard A is in the time bubble of celerity, time effectively stands still for that standard action.
Your problem is that you've created a mental construct of how this spell operates that is at odds with the actual RAW. There is no "time bubble of Celerity". The result is just a standard action which operates under the regular rules for standard actions. You can get an extra standard action through

Celerity
Belt of Battle
Factotum Cunning Surge
and all of them follow the rules for a character taking a standard action. For instance, another character could use an immediate action to interrupt any of those standard actions because that's something the rules say they can do. Yes, Celerity operates at a different initiative count, but there's not anything really special about that except a bit of bookkeeping overhead for the DM.

[Max Caysey]

Your problem is that you've created a mental construct of how this spell operates that is at odds with the actual RAW. There is no "time bubble of Celerity". The result is just a standard action which operates under the regular rules for standard actions. You can get an extra standard action through

Celerity
Belt of Battle
Factotum Cunning Surge
and all of them follow the rules for a character taking a standard action. For instance, another character could use an immediate action to interrupt any of those standard actions because that's something the rules say they can do. Yes, Celerity operates at a different initiative count, but there's not anything really special about that except a bit of bookkeeping overhead for the DM.

Celerity happens immediately, so the standard action takes no time at all. You are free to act like in timestop. The standard action happens so quickly that you cant act. The duration is instantaneous, meaning the standard action takes instantaneous. Otherwise it would be on standard action duration.

The spell says: "Upon casting this spell, you can immediately take a move/standard/full round action."

It that happened at normal time it would not say that you took an action immediatly. Its specifically this part thats important. The immediate time. Thats how long it takes and thus cannot be interrupted.

[Curmudgeon]

Celerity happens immediately, so the standard action takes no time at all. That's your creation, not what the spell says. As a general rule, spells do exactly what they say they do, and nothing more.

The spell says: "Upon casting this spell, you can immediately take a move/standard/full round action."

It that happened at normal time it would not say that you took an action immediatly. Its specifically this part thats important. The immediate time. Thats how long it takes and thus cannot be interrupted.
Here's what the spell actually says, with the real important part (i.e., the part you left out which tells you what D&D rules to refer to) highlighted:

When you cast this spell, you can immediately take a standard action, as if you had readied an action. The rules for how readied actions work are here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#ready). While a readied action will interrupt another character's actions (as would any immediate action spell like Celerity), there's nothing there which says a readied action cannot in turn be interrupted. But there is a section on using Ready to counterspell. So you cast Celerity + Silent Spell and get a standard action as if you had readied it; you use that standard action to cast another spell. An opponent who had readied an action to counterspell follows the rules and counters that standard action spell.

[bekeleven]

Celerity happens immediately, so the standard action takes no time at all. You are free to act like in timestop. The standard action happens so quickly that you cant act. The duration is instantaneous, meaning the standard action takes instantaneous. Otherwise it would be on standard action duration.

The spell says: "Upon casting this spell, you can immediately take a move/standard/full round action."

It that happened at normal time it would not say that you took an action immediatly. Its specifically this part thats important. The immediate time. Thats how long it takes and thus cannot be interrupted.

When my initiative count comes up, I take my actions immediately too. Nobody else takes regular actions during my round, and their spells don't increment rounds either. Effectively, to them, my actions are instantaneous.

Pray tell how these differ.

[Melcar]

That's your creation, not what the spell says. As a general rule, spells do exactly what they say they do, and nothing more.

Here's what the spell actually says, with the real important part (i.e., the part you left out which tells you what D&D rules to refer to) highlighted:
The rules for how readied actions work are here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#ready). While a readied action will interrupt another character's actions (as would any immediate action spell like Celerity), there's nothing there which says a readied action cannot in turn be interrupted. But there is a section on using Ready to counterspell. So you cast Celerity + Silent Spell and get a standard action as if you had readied it; you use that standard action to cast another spell. An opponent who had readied an action to counterspell follows the rules and counters that standard action spell.

I think it's pretty clear. The spell says that you immediately take a standard action. If the spell worked as you say, then it would have said. "You take a standard action" and leave out the immediate part, which I personally think is the very important part. The actions taken, either move/standard/full round, happens immediately, because that’s what the spell says. This means that the actions taken in this move/standard/full round, happens immediately, and can thus not be interrupted since it happens in the blink of an eye.

[Max Caysey]

That's your creation, not what the spell says. As a general rule, spells do exactly what they say they do, and nothing more.

Here's what the spell actually says, with the real important part (i.e., the part you left out which tells you what D&D rules to refer to) highlighted:
The rules for how readied actions work are here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#ready). While a readied action will interrupt another character's actions (as would any immediate action spell like Celerity), there's nothing there which says a readied action cannot in turn be interrupted. But there is a section on using Ready to counterspell. So you cast Celerity + Silent Spell and get a standard action as if you had readied it; you use that standard action to cast another spell. An opponent who had readied an action to counterspell follows the rules and counters that standard action spell.

So we disagree. Whatever. I strongly believe that I'm right, and I'm so sure of it, that I'm not changing my position or interpretation of the spell. I have read what you have linked, and yet I believe that I understand the spell correctly. I'm sorry to come off as arrogant, but I fail to see the spell any other way. I do want to express that my views have been changes many times here at this forum, so it's not like I don't believe or want to listen. In this single circumstance I do however believe that I for once have the right interpretation. Please do not take this personal. I hope also that we in the future can have great discussions still. And please know, that I do not think less of any of you for disagreeing or believing differently than I.

[Curmudgeon]

So we disagree. Whatever. I strongly believe that I'm right, and I'm so sure of it, that I'm not changing my position or interpretation of the spell. I have read what you have linked, and yet I believe that I understand the spell correctly.
Let's try something different, then.
You borrow a slice of time from the future, pulling it into the present so that you can act. If the spellcaster had used that slice of time (standard action) from the future normally (on their next turn), that time would be interruptible by a readied action. The rules also state that immediate actions interrupting other actions can be interrupted in turn. So what, to your mind, makes the Celerity standard action non-interruptible? That standard action is interruptible in the future, so why does it change properties to become non-interruptible when pulled into the present by an interruptible action?

[Max Caysey]

Let's try something different, then. If the spellcaster had used that slice of time (standard action) from the future normally (on their next turn), that time would be interruptible by a readied action. The rules also state that immediate actions interrupting other actions can be interrupted in turn. So what, to your mind, makes the Celerity standard action non-interruptible? That standard action is interruptible in the future, so why does it change properties to become non-interruptible when pulled into the present by an interruptible action?

I really dont want to get into a big argument, but as I see it, it says that it happes immediatly. So effectively it functions like timestop. Just only for one standard action. Immediatly take a standard action means that I take a standard action now, instant, immediatly. Not just that I get a standard action, here now, but that, that standard actions is happening so quickly that it no longer takes a standard action but takes no time (an emmidiat action). I dont think I can explain it any better.

We just disagree... no worries! :smallsmile:

[Phelix-Mu]

I think you guys are giving "immediately" much more meaning than it normally carries. To me, when the spell says "upon casting this spell you can immediately take [an action]" it's not saying the action takes place in no time. It means that you can take the action without delay, right now. It still takes the normal amount of time (an ill-defined fragment of six seconds), and may actually take less time than a normal action of that type, but it doesn't matter, since actions are actions, and the amount of time each one takes to elapse is heavily abstracted.

The "without delay" interpretation fits because, in another person's turn, you normally have to wait for your initiative count to do anything (with a few exceptions). The spell allows you to alter this, acting "right away."

I understand that you can probably wrench "instantaneous" out of "immediately" just like I got "without delay," but when two English definitions of a word are in debate, it is usually preferable to take the interpretation that is the best fit for the rest of the rules. As Curmudgeon has pointed out, there are multiple facets of the spell's interaction with the rest of the rules that point to it being interruptible. Only "immediately" seems to suggest otherwise, thus it seems unlikely that they would go for the use of "immediately" that should have provoked more rules clarification (unless they were really bad at writing/rules lawyering, which they were).

Furthermore, the status of interrupts in the game generally is rather deplorable. Part of it has to do with Swift/Immediate being added after the core rules, and part of it has to do with the core time mechanic in the game being decades old and not prepared for the level of sophisticated interactions that later incarnations of the rules have given rise to.

Overall, I'd say rule as you wish, as you could argue a degree of ambiguity exists. Except that celerity is already heinously overpowered given the clinch role that action economy plays in the game.

[tonberrian]

Amusingly, I'm pretty sure that you can notice someone else is casting celerity, then cast your own celerity as an immediate action that interrupts their spellcasting, and get yours done first.

[Phelix-Mu]

Amusingly, I'm pretty sure that you can notice someone else is casting celerity, then cast your own celerity as an immediate action that interrupts their spellcasting, and get yours done first.

This is what I was eluding to with the poorly defined nature of interrupts in D&D. The game would have benefited considerably from WotC importing their "stack" concept from MtG into the core rules. But, alas, no such fruitful cross-pollination occurred.

[Snowbluff]

No you can't if it is not your turn.

and you can't use free action if it isn't your turn.
By saying that we can, it creates an exception.