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Fax Celestis
2007-03-15, 08:45 PM
I've found a few templates that "apply" well to specific monsters. For instance, I've recently acquired Dungeonscape and am now itching to apply the Guardian template to Caryatid Columns, because I think that fits the idea of Caryatid Columns remarkably well. Similarly, I find applying the Dark template (ToM) to Chokers, Ropers, and similar "cave-creatures" to be particularly apt.

What templates have you found that fit well thematically with specific creatures?

Duskwither
2007-03-15, 08:56 PM
Let's see... Feral Template on a Great Wyrm White Dragon, but I'm certain many people have done that.

Laesin
2007-03-15, 11:05 PM
A nice one that worked in 3.0 was playing an arcane spellcaster capable of casting spellturning, becoming a lich then casting spellturning on your familiar followed by polymorph other to become a vampire. You gained the vampire physical stats the lich's mental stats, the phylactery and you looked the same as ever if a bit more predatory. Also you could still walk in sunlight and were unaffected by running water. Only thing you lost was a couple of touch attacks. This was even better if you added spellstitched as you ended up with silly turn resistance and some minor spell like abilities.

BlueWizard
2007-03-16, 02:54 AM
Corrupt just about anything.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-03-16, 03:19 AM
I personally love half-fiend and half-celestial humanoids of almost any type. But not the generic kinds, they have to be half of a real fiend, not just purple scales and red eyes or silver wings and white hair.

InaVegt
2007-03-16, 04:49 AM
I find half celestial aasimar/half fiend tiefling to work reasonably well. A woodling elf also seems to fit the flavor to me.

Seffbasilisk
2007-03-16, 04:56 AM
Half Green Dragon Pyrohydra.

Zincorium
2007-03-16, 05:24 AM
Let's see... Feral Template on a Great Wyrm White Dragon, but I'm certain many people have done that.

Probably fewer than you think, as a white dragon is neither a humanoid nor a monstrous humanoid.


Personally, I keep templating to a minimum, but I do happen to like using regular monsters as the basis for undead or aberrationish beasties. A vampire beholder is an excellent ego maniacal BBEG.

Duskwither
2007-03-16, 07:27 AM
Probably fewer than you think, as a white dragon is neither a humanoid nor a monstrous humanoid.


Personally, I keep templating to a minimum, but I do happen to like using regular monsters as the basis for undead or aberrationish beasties. A vampire beholder is an excellent ego maniacal BBEG.


Shh! I liked the flavor and changed it slightly! :smalltongue:

Ranis
2007-03-16, 09:21 AM
The Guardian template is really nice on Bronze Serpents in MMII, because...they guard things. And the template makes them guard things better.

Other templates I use in my extremely undead-heavy world are half-vampire; one of my PC's is a half-vampire, definitely added to the flavor there. There is also an ENORMOUS formian hive in my campaign, and one of the Queens is a 15th level Cleric Necromancer, and she makes all of her undead with the Plagueborn template so she can still control them through the hivemind.

Another one I use every time I have my PC's go through a crypt or tomb of some kind is the Tomb Warden template in Libris Mortis. What's this? Turn Immunity, you KNOW where the enemies are, and a +2 circumstance bonus to all attack rolls and damage rolls for +3CR? Sign me up!

JellyPooga
2007-03-16, 10:35 AM
I always liked playing Shadow-Walker Tieflings (Shadow Walker template from Unapproachable East)...I always thought of it as a kind of Tiefling+ (ignoring the usual fluff for SW), but not as far gone as a half-fiend (aka: Tiefling++). Embracing your dark heritage, but not that much.

I always liked the Shadow-Walker template, 'cos it's one of the few level adjusts that gets better as you do (and cos it makes your shadow all wiggly and cool).

NullAshton
2007-03-16, 10:59 AM
I think that applying the celestial template to a dragon would be very cool indeed.

First take a metallic dragon. Then turn it's wings feathery. Then make it have even more of a shine, with sort of a glow.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-03-16, 01:16 PM
Half-Red or Green Dragon Troll.

Ranis
2007-03-16, 01:50 PM
Jeez, is Half-Dragon the only template people use anymore?

Fax Celestis
2007-03-16, 01:58 PM
Some people, yes. Apparently Dragons are very prolific.

Laesin
2007-03-18, 01:02 AM
Some people, yes. Apparently Dragons are very prolific.

Yup. Read the book of erotic fantasy. Dragons can choose to procreate with a 100% conception rate.

Ranis
2007-03-18, 01:03 AM
Yup. Read the book of erotic fantasy. Dragons can choose to procreate with a 100% conception rate.

Suddenly, I'm not quite so sure I'm so upset I haven't had time to read as much as I'd like to lately.

Jalil
2007-03-18, 07:26 AM
Jeez, is Half-Dragon the only template people use anymore?

Yes. It easily has the most bang/$. I prefer 1/2 green on a war troll(MMII?) CR15, but he's a real brute.

Thrawn183
2007-03-18, 11:20 AM
How about the classic zombie hydra? Makes full attacks as standard actions. Any monster that uses a lot of free actions plus a template that adds spell-like or psionic-like abilities (phrenic hive mother ftw).

Closet_Skeleton
2007-03-18, 11:47 AM
Yup. Read the book of erotic fantasy. Dragons can choose to procreate with a 100% conception rate.

Except guessing from the ammount of Dragons in the world Dragons aren't very fertile with other dragons. That really makes dragons screwed up.

I like templates that don't get rid of class levels. Otherwise zombiefy something with rediculous ammount of HD. Feral can work quite well with some things as long as you admit that it isn't for PCs as does the Monstrous template.

The monster classes in Liber Mortis are sort of like templates.

Quietus
2007-03-18, 11:48 AM
I tend to use a lot of draconic, half-dragon, or half-fey templates lately - but then, I'm playing in my homebrew world of Vethedar, which is extremely dragon-heavy and also has a slight fey problem at the moment.

::Edit:: Closet_skeleton - there's a reason why dragons don't seem to be as prolific with other dragons. Mainly, because draconic politics/lifestyles really don't mesh well with dragons getting together too often. Most evil dragons don't like to be anywhere near anything that could take their hoards, if at all possible, and even good dragons can be miserly enough not to want to let anyone see what they've got stashed away for any length of time. Plus the half-dragons that are out there tend to be the evil ones, which meshes well with evil dragons wanting to create minor armies that they know won't pose any REAL danger to them, but that can obliterate standard humanoids.

The_Werebear
2007-03-18, 01:00 PM
What book is Phrenic in?

I personally like Applying Feral templates to orcs, and then using them as shock troopers. Feral Orc Frenzied Berserkers which are chained up before battle and sic'ed on the opposition.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-18, 01:49 PM
Phrenic is in the XPH. It's a +3 LA, but it's one of the few templates that grows with you.

kellandros
2007-03-18, 01:58 PM
I personally like Applying Feral templates to orcs, and then using them as shock troopers. Feral Orc Frenzied Berserkers which are chained up before battle and sic'ed on the opposition.

Erm, how do you chain them up again when the battle is done?

Closet_Skeleton
2007-03-18, 02:00 PM
Erm, how do you chain them up again when the battle is done?

Wait till they fall asleap.

Zeta Kai
2007-03-18, 02:13 PM
A Half-Vampire Vampire would be funny.

On a serious note, a Swarm-Shifter Lich is a thing of wonder. Especially as a swarm of spiders, scorpions or undead rats.

Also, consider the Umbral Black Dragon. I'm not a dragon fan, but this monstrosity is enough to change my mind. Great for horror-themed games.

The_Werebear
2007-03-18, 02:22 PM
Erm, how do you chain them up again when the battle is done?

Meat on sticks back in the cages/copious amounts of drow sleep poison darts.

The Glyphstone
2007-03-18, 02:47 PM
Paragon. Paragon Anything.

a Paragon Kobold is hilarious...CR15 1/4, and incredibly hard to kill.

Son of Pun-Pun - Paragon Kobold
Small Humanoid (Reptilian)
HP: 8+7+12 (27)
Init: +7
Spd: 90ft. (18 squares)
AC: 51 (+1 siz, +9 Dex, +5 natural, +2 armor, +12 insight, +12 luck), touch 36, flat-footed 42
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-4
Attack: Spear +33 melee (1d6+27/x3) or sling +35 ranged (1d6+27)
Full Attack: Spear +33 melee (1d6+27/x3) or sling +35 ranged (1d6+27)
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60ft., light sensitivity, fire resistance 10, cold resistance 10, damage reduction 10/epic, SR 40, fast healing 20
Saves: Fort +19, Ref +19, Will +17
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 28, Con 25, Int 25, Wis 24, Cha 23
Skills: Craft (trapmaking) +19, Hide +23, Listen +19, Move Silently +19, Profession (Miner) +19, Search +19, Spot +19
Feats: Alertness, ___________
Environment: Any
Organization: Unique
Challenge Rating: 15 1/4
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually Lawful Evil
Advancement: -

Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day - Greater Dispel Magic, Haste, See Invisibility. Cl 15th.


The absurd SR, combined with his super-high touch AC, makes casters much devalued. The meleeists are even worse, because of said AC (even higher with natural armor and armor), the DR/epic, and the fast healing. Offensively, he can dispel, or spear for a surprising amount of damage. If he gets nailed with a lucky crit or two, he goes down, since he only has 27 HP - but then, that's how it should be. And if the hit doesn't take him out, he's back to full strength most likely next round.

Ramza00
2007-03-18, 03:32 PM
Paragon. Paragon Anything.

a Paragon Kobold is hilarious...CR15 1/4, and incredibly hard to kill.
If you are going to do paragon might as well do it on creatures instead of kobolds. A paragon dire wolf, dire boar, or plain lion (also dire lion) would fit the Shinto theme of nature gods pretty well (same idea as princess mononoke with the spirit gods)

Dire Wolf Hp 6*(8+12+11)=186 Hp CR 18
Dire Boar Hp 7*(8+12+11)=217 HP CR 19 Ferocity (EX) A dire boar is such a tenacious combatant that it continues to fight without penalty even while disabled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#disabled) or dying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dying).
Lion 5*(8+12+10)=150 HP CR 18 has pounce

All of these has fast speeds but limited attacks thus give them spring attack and watch them rack havoc on the battle field. There attacks have so many boosters they will pretty much always hit. SR, good saves, hit points, DR, and fast healing means they are nasty to kill. Like miny Tarrasque, but these guys have several advantanges over that dumb beast.

Necromas
2007-03-18, 03:59 PM
Any template that does ability damage goes great with a manticore, our party fought a pair of poisonous manticores and after each fired a volley of 8 deadly spines, only one person in the group didnt have dex damage.

Avicenex
2007-03-18, 05:06 PM
Monster of Legend is a horribly amazing template. +2 CR for massive physical stats and awesome abilities? No magical beast should be without...

Templates can make a normally boring monster spicy, but one thing I've found is that there are almost no templates made for constructs. Poor golems always get the short end of the stick.

Fizban
2007-03-18, 05:25 PM
Anything that gives me wings or scales with level. In particular, Half-Celestial and Half-Fey can do both.

Paragon is nifty, and with the realization that one could apply it to common animals sounds like fun. Make a whole plane where everything has the paragon template, and drop your high level party in with no way out. Suddenly they have to worry about wolves and kobolds again!

Tauric is pretty cool, but you end up with so many racial hit die it's nearly worthless for a PC, and therefore is not on my list of cool.

And then there's always a Titanic Lizard Monster of Legend smashing up tokyo...

Edit: haha, this isn't a "what template do you like thread", more on topic then.

Let's see, any of the alignment (Celestial, Anarchic etc) templates are good for getting a creature up to 3 int, by virtue of explicitly stating that the creature now has a minimum of 3 int. Great for making oozes with class levels and such.

I paricularly like the idea of just plain celestial and to some extend half-celestial humans and other standard races. I remember reading somewhere that supposedly there are normal communities on other planes that are just like material ones, and it just made me think of a nice peaceful farming village on a good aligned plane, full of celestial human commoners. I prefer a half-celestial human to an angel subtype monster because it's a lot easier to see as an angel. Most of the angel monsters are freakishly tall and ruin the image.

Half-Pseudonatural could be interesting, but other than stuff like the chaos beast, I don't see any clear matches.

Edit 2: Odd, it seems that you can't apply the celestial template to an ooze, but you can use the fiendish template. Either can be used on a vermin though.

The Glyphstone
2007-03-18, 06:47 PM
If you are going to do paragon might as well do it on creatures instead of kobolds. A paragon dire wolf, dire boar, or plain lion (also dire lion) would fit the Shinto theme of nature gods pretty well (same idea as princess mononoke with the spirit gods)



But a paragon kobold is both effective and funny.

Quietus
2007-03-18, 07:28 PM
Half-Pseudonatural could also go well on a critter like the Gibbering Mouther.

::Edit:: By extension, it would also go nicely on the Squamous Spewer. Or any ooze, really.

The Glyphstone
2007-03-18, 07:39 PM
Oh yeah, forgot - a Half-Farspawn Grell. Even better if advanced and given the Epic Pseudonatural template.

Quietus
2007-03-18, 07:40 PM
Grell are fun... I remember when my abberation-hating level 1 ranger beat one to death with his bare hands, naked in a pit. Fun fight.

The_Snark
2007-03-18, 07:51 PM
Grell are fun.

Elder Eidolon's among one of my favorite templates, and the sample monster it's applied to (kraken) is actually one of the monsters it works well with. It's fun to apply to ethereal mauraders and other things... say, a Huge chimeric griffon.

I've also always wanted to have a BBEG be a half-fiend kraken, with massive wings and clawed tentacles. Demonsquid!

Quietus
2007-03-18, 07:59 PM
While we're on krakens and such, those could ALSO have fun with the epic psuedonatural template. Just what they needed, MORE tentacles!

lumberofdabeast
2007-03-19, 10:09 AM
Wasn't there a Half-Ooze template somewhere?

That would go well with anything.

Ranis
2007-03-19, 10:14 AM
I made a Half-Illithid Beholder Lich last night.

I'm evil.

Khantalas
2007-03-19, 10:16 AM
Can you apply lich template to aberrations, though?

The_Werebear
2007-03-19, 10:18 AM
Can you apply lich template to aberrations, though?

Don't see why not. They have regular Mind Flayer Liches.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-19, 10:19 AM
Mmm... Psionic Aboleth with the Psionic Lich template. Make it Half-Illithid too, for more icky.

Khantalas
2007-03-19, 10:36 AM
Don't see why not. They have regular Mind Flayer Liches.

But that is specifically created for illithids. Not anything else.

You also can't add the lich template to dragons, but there are dracoliches.

Ranis
2007-03-19, 11:22 AM
I don't see why you can't make a beholder lich. You could go both ways with that, and no, the lich template for Alhoons isn't "specifically for mind flayers;" it follows the lich template precisely.

MegasquidMan
2007-03-20, 06:24 PM
While we're on krakens and such, those could ALSO have fun with the epic psuedonatural template. Just what they needed, MORE tentacles!

More Tentacles, AND eyes and maws on those tentacles, too! lol

I've always been keen on using the Half-Farspawn, Elder Eidolon, and Pseudonatural Templates (I'm mildly deranged, what more do you people want from a guy called Megasquid Man :smallwink: ), as well as Celestial and Fiendish.

Also, there's the Reptilian Template in Savage Species I've always wanted to try for flavouring.

Deus Mortus
2007-03-20, 06:43 PM
My group recently got attacked by pseudonatural half-fiend kraken liches, we almost got a TPK until I pulled some PaO cheese, the DM didn't expect the kraken to be as strong as they were...

Avicenex
2007-03-20, 09:16 PM
My group recently got attacked by pseudonatural half-fiend kraken liches, we almost got a TPK until I pulled some PaO cheese, the DM didn't expect the kraken to be as strong as they were...

I know how you can get kraken liches (breaking the rules), but why? And I dearly hope you're talking about the non-epic pseudonatural template, otherwise your DM needs to learn to read.

Also, half-fiend gives creatures wings. Where would the wings fit on a squid? There's no way you can add them without making it look silly. I think this is a good example of templates that don't work well with specific monsters...

The_Snark
2007-03-20, 09:26 PM
The wings on the squid could fit where the small edge-fins on a normal squid are. Squid aren't perfect cylinders; they're flattened. Give them large enough wings, and.. a squid the size of a kraken still couldn't fly. But if we make excuses for hundred-foot fire-breathing lizards to be able to fly, we can do it for a kraken too. At least krakens have some natural ability to control the weather already. I'd drop the maneuverability to Clumsy, though, because... yeah.

That's actually a pretty neat idea, although I think pseudonatural and lich might be a bit much. Man... those are tough. Lich as in a real lich, with eleven levels of spellcasting? That's... around CR 18, assuming the non-epic pseudonatural template.

MegasquidMan
2007-03-20, 11:24 PM
give a kraken a winged template, and all things are solved.

storybookknight
2007-03-21, 12:05 PM
Vampire Hags (Green in particular) are viciously under-CRed. Springing those on my players was a treat. Seriously, seriously, an oversight in the monster manual.

woc33
2007-03-21, 02:06 PM
I'm currently working on a campaign where the BBEG is a weretiger-vampire, and it works greatm the only problem is the con -, since he gets a nice con bonus from the weretiger template but other than that he has some nifty abilities.

NecroPaladin
2007-03-21, 06:11 PM
Spellstitched is INVALUABLE on ghouls and ghasts, as they are intelligent (thus able to use the spells on their own judgement rather than being ordered to) and a few good spells can patch up their weaknesses. Consider a ghast that has 5 or so (granted, 3 of those would be 1st level spells, I'm pretty sure) that could lower its opponent's fortitude saves, or, better yet, alter self into a more human-looking undead (it isn't able to fully replicate a humanoid with alter self) and then charm the tank into close range. The tank who probably doesn't have the best will save, and now the lowered resistance to the ghast's paralysis, etc effects. Ka-chomp. Effectively, this ghast has become a slightly less powerful vampire that possesses more customized spells, a stench ability, ghoul fever, and paralysis.

I happen to have experience with this, as I set these things on my average level 7 PCs. I was thoroughly surprised and dismayed to see the party wipe, as the three spellstitched ghasts are only CR 4 each. As you could probably guess, I tend to gravitate to undead monsters so I find some, erm, worthwhile combinations.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-03-21, 06:22 PM
I, personally, enjoy adding the Dark template to undead. It just give me the good jibblies, and it really fits with some of the concepts I'm working with...I had a big success with a Dark Neothelid some time ago.

I'm also somewhat fond of the delicious Half-troll template; a fallen Half-troll Hound Archon, twisted by hideous sorceries into a mockery of his previous form, de-panted several of my PCs due to fear.

NecroPaladin
2007-03-21, 06:23 PM
I, personally, enjoy adding the Dark template to undead. It just give me the good jibblies, and it really fits with some of the concepts I'm working with...I had a big success with a Dark Neothelid some time ago.

I'm also somewhat fond of the delicious Half-troll template; a fallen Half-troll Hound Archon, twisted by hideous sorceries into a mockery of his previous form, de-panted several of my PCs due to fear.

Dude...Dark Spellstitched Evolved Ghast = Undead win at life. AND death. Simultaneously. The CR is only a few points over (What was dark's CR bonus again? It might be bigger), even though the power level skyrockets.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-03-21, 06:32 PM
Dude...Dark Spellstitched Evolved Ghast = Undead win at life. AND death. Simultaneously. The CR is only a few points over (What was dark's CR bonus again? It might be bigger), even though the power level skyrockets.
Really? Well, the Dark template is only +1....but you're right- the Hide in Plain Sight ability particularly, especially with complementary stat bonuses, would make already-stealthy undead formidable foes.

NecroPaladin
2007-03-21, 06:38 PM
Really? Well, the Dark template is only +1....but you're right- the Hide in Plain Sight ability particularly, especially with complementary stat bonuses, would make already-stealthy undead formidable foes.

So it would be a CR 6 (I think) Ghast, with various physical bonuses from evolved, plus the extra hit dice and nasty special ability like seeing invisibility or cloudkill from evolved, plus the stealthiness of Dark, plus spell-like abilities, be they decieving or just offensive from spellstitched, plus a ghast's natural abilities.

I just realized, imagine the death radius of a hold person and other such spells (spellstitched), stench (natural ghast), cloudkill (evolved), all executed from the shadows (dark). And, of course then the ghast could finish off the survivors up close.

Deus Mortus
2007-03-21, 08:06 PM
I know how you can get kraken liches (breaking the rules), but why? And I dearly hope you're talking about the non-epic pseudonatural template, otherwise your DM needs to learn to read.

Also, half-fiend gives creatures wings. Where would the wings fit on a squid? There's no way you can add them without making it look silly. I think this is a good example of templates that don't work well with specific monsters...

It was the epic template and yes the dm broke the rules, but who cares? He's the dm and it made sense for the campaign, he explained the wings as a few of it's tentacles splitting in three parts having webbing between them and acting as wings, it was a real fun encounter, albeit a bit to hard.

Avicenex
2007-03-21, 10:59 PM
It was the epic template and yes the dm broke the rules, but who cares? He's the dm and it made sense for the campaign, he explained the wings as a few of it's tentacles splitting in three parts having webbing between them and acting as wings, it was a real fun encounter, albeit a bit to hard.

Hold on... what level was the party?

Kraken has a base CR of 12, add 10 for epic psuedonatural, +3 for Half-Fiend, and +2 for lich. That's a CR 27, and your DM didn't expect it to be strong?

Helgraf
2007-03-21, 11:07 PM
Paragon. Paragon Anything.

a Paragon Kobold is hilarious...CR15 1/4, and incredibly hard to kill.

Son of Pun-Pun - Paragon Kobold
Small Humanoid (Reptilian)
HP: 8+7+12 (27)
Init: +7
Spd: 90ft. (18 squares)
AC: 51 (+1 siz, +9 Dex, +5 natural, +2 armor, +12 insight, +12 luck), touch 36, flat-footed 42
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-4
Attack: Spear +33 melee (1d6+27/x3) or sling +35 ranged (1d6+27)
Full Attack: Spear +33 melee (1d6+27/x3) or sling +35 ranged (1d6+27)
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60ft., light sensitivity, fire resistance 10, cold resistance 10, damage reduction 10/epic, SR 40, fast healing 20
Saves: Fort +19, Ref +19, Will +17
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 28, Con 25, Int 25, Wis 24, Cha 23
Skills: Craft (trapmaking) +19, Hide +23, Listen +19, Move Silently +19, Profession (Miner) +19, Search +19, Spot +19
Feats: Alertness, ___________
Environment: Any
Organization: Unique
Challenge Rating: 15 1/4
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually Lawful Evil
Advancement: -

Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day - Greater Dispel Magic, Haste, See Invisibility. Cl 15th.


The absurd SR, combined with his super-high touch AC, makes casters much devalued. The meleeists are even worse, because of said AC (even higher with natural armor and armor), the DR/epic, and the fast healing. Offensively, he can dispel, or spear for a surprising amount of damage. If he gets nailed with a lucky crit or two, he goes down, since he only has 27 HP - but then, that's how it should be. And if the hit doesn't take him out, he's back to full strength most likely next round.


Sure, but a single Holy Word or (good version of Unholy Blight) and he's dead or crippled.

Avicenex
2007-03-21, 11:24 PM
Ah, I can't resist showing off.

Don't apply Paragon to a kobold, apply multiple templates! The CR is lower, and he's way more powerful.

Behold! (http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=4362)

I think I did him right, but after applying 9 templates it is rather confusing. If you really want to TPK a party, use Rex-Rex, the uber kobold.

Ramza00
2007-03-21, 11:26 PM
Well he should have done a giant squid and just advanced the hd (3 hd for each cr) that way you would have got 10 tentacles instead of 2 before you add the pseudonatural template on it all.

Ramza00
2007-03-21, 11:30 PM
Also monster of legend is another good template to throw on such monster. The str bonus and con bonus is enough for +2 CR, let alone everything else you get.

The_Snark
2007-03-21, 11:32 PM
Hold on... what level was the party?

Kraken has a base CR of 12, add 10 for epic psuedonatural, +3 for Half-Fiend, and +2 for lich. That's a CR 27, and your DM didn't expect it to be strong?

Not to mention eleven levels of a spellcasting class, unless your DM waived the lich rules there too...

Deus Mortus
2007-03-22, 06:41 AM
We're a fresh lvl 20 party (5 people inside, all heavily min maxed, you could almost call it cheesy), we usually totally evaporate anything in our path, I took out a CR 36 encounter in one round that same game, so the dm tends to send out some awfully powerful critters our way.
The problem was that we had no way to get to them, they got lucky on dispel rolls so they were flying and we weren't and they cast dimensional anchor so we couldn't planseshift/teleport away, after that it was more or less slaughter untill I started PaO'ing them in squirrels.