Is Pure Wizard a good idea?

[RoboEmperor]

One thing I mainly noticed about prestige classes is that
1. It requires one or more USELESS feats, meaning you have to dip into a non-spellcasting class to get all the proficiencies OR use your feats to get it, delaying your other more important feats.
2. You lose the wizard's bonus feats, depending on how many levels you prestige class in.

So for example, if I want to get abjurant champion (not that I do), I would have to burn 2 feats getting combat casting and a martial weapon proficiency, and I lose 1 bonus feat I'd get if I was a pure wizard. So that's 3 feats for +2.5 BAB, +5 AC (from shield) and that's probably it. Not to mention I need to wait until higher levels to slowly get the other 3 feats I would've gotten if I didn't

Another example, if I wanted to go archmage I would have to burn a feat in skill focus spellcraft (useless) and 2 spell foci, which arguably isn't useless but it might be to someone who wants to focus in only 1 school, and don't forget the bonus feat lost.

So I guess what I am saying is, is pure wizard as good as a wizard who gets PrCs and it's just a matter of player preference or am I severely gimping myself by choosing more feats over special abilities?

I'm asking this question as a general question and not specific to me, but if you must know why I am so feat-obsessed is because my DM doesn't allow any form of magical shops so all magical items must be crafted. Also, no flaws >.<

[With a box]

If you go into incantatrix, it has iron will feat tax but you get four metamagic feats instead of 3 wiz bonus feat. And incantatrix brokenness

[Boci]

Pure wizard is fine, and you are correct that many prestige classes are not that great (especially one for caster fighters like abjuration champion) but there are some prestige classes that are hands down better. The obvious one is Incantatrix, either the 3.5 or the 3.0 (though the former is noticeably stronger) and Mage of the Arcane Order as well as archamge are generally considered worth it. Master specialist can be a good choice, depending on which school you specialize in. The various shadow conjuration based PrC for an illusionist can be very potent. Apart from that and a couple more though, for a wizard PrC are at best an equal choice to going pure, or sometimes worse.


If you go into incantatrix, it has iron will feat tax but you get four metamagic feats instead of 3 wiz bonus feat. And incantatrix brokenness

Also you can get that for 3k by spending a night in the -1 star hotel known of the Otyugh's Hole.

[Jeff the Green]

Sturgeon's law definitely applies to PrCs, but for almost every Wizard character there's a PrC that's better than Wizard. If nothing else, Master Specialist and Ruathar are trivial to get into.

For Abjurant Champion specifically, you're missing a couple things. First, you're automatically extending an entire school and quickening the lower levels of it (more than just the lower levels with shenanigans). Second, it's one of the best ways for an arcane caster to get AC.

[sideswipe]

For Abjurant Champion specifically, you're missing a couple things. First, you're automatically extending an entire school and quickening the lower levels of it (more than just the lower levels with shenanigans). Second, it's one of the best ways for an arcane caster to get AC.

please tell me what these shenanigans are.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sanctum spell would allow you to quicken up to 4 level abjuration spells, Legacy champion would give you another 8 effective abjurant champion levels which would allow for quickened level 7 abjuration spell (8th with Sanctum Spell).

Edit: But it is imposible to get both of them in a single level 20 character as Legacy Champion requires Character level 10 and Abjurant Champion needs BAB +5 (which ironically Wizards get at level 10).

[Jeff the Green]

please tell me what these shenanigans are.

It will cost you casting levels, but you can progress it with Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster. Assuming you're a Wizard 4/Fighter 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Legacy Champion 8, you have an effective Abjurant Champion level of 11 and auto-quicken spells up to level 6. Drop that to Legacy Champion 6 you auto-quicken spells up to level 5 and still get 9th-level spells.

[RoboEmperor]

Pure wizard is fine, and you are correct that many prestige classes are not that great (especially one for caster fighters like abjuration champion) but there are some prestige classes that are hands down better. The obvious one is Incantatrix, either the 3.5 or the 3.0 (though the former is noticeably stronger) and Mage of the Arcane Order as well as archamge are generally considered worth it. Master specialist can be a good choice, depending on which school you specialize in. The various shadow conjuration based PrC for an illusionist can be very potent. Apart from that and a couple more though, for a wizard PrC are at best an equal choice to going pure, or sometimes worse.

Yeah, incantrix seems amazing. Evocation is the only school I have absolutely no interest in (and there is even shadow evocation!), so I'll ban that. Also incantrix would come out ahead feat wise because I lose 1 feat for iron will, 2 bonus wizard feats since it maxes out at 10, but in exchange I get 3 bonus metamagic feats, and a ****load broken perks XD.

Alright, so if incantrix is not banned, I will always, always take it but in all other cases I'll go pure wizard. Thanks for answering my question!

(mage of the arcane order is unfit for my character role play wise)
(there is at least 1 spell in every school other than evocation I want to use so specialists are out >.<)


Sturgeon's law definitely applies to PrCs, but for almost every Wizard character there's a PrC that's better than Wizard. If nothing else, Master Specialist and Ruathar are trivial to get into.

For Abjurant Champion specifically, you're missing a couple things. First, you're automatically extending an entire school and quickening the lower levels of it (more than just the lower levels with shenanigans). Second, it's one of the best ways for an arcane caster to get AC.

I am aware that abjurant champion is an amazing class for gishes, but seeing how my char is not a gish, it's not that great for her :P
I stopped playing gishes when I learned that 1 dispel magic will turn him/her to a useless waste of space, and a pure wizard who buffs his summons or himself with polymorph and tenser's or some other tricks can outfight the gish and still have superior spellcasting.

[Boci]

Yeah, incantrix seems amazing. Evocation is the only school I have absolutely no interest in (and there is even shadow evocation!), so I'll ban that. Also incantrix would come out ahead feat wise because I lose 1 feat for iron will, 2 bonus wizard feats since it maxes out at 10, but in exchange I get 3 bonus metamagic feats, and a ****load broken perks XD.

Alright, so if incantrix is not banned, I will always, always take it but in all other cases I'll go pure wizard. Thanks for answering my question!

(mage of the arcane order is unfit for my character role play wise)
(there is at least 1 spell in every school other than evocation I want to use so specialists are out >.<)

Sure, but remember you won't need to always go incantrix. You are a wizard, once you have an eye for getting the decent spells, you will be incredibly powerful even without incantrix. Like not specializing, mechanically the added versatility is not worth the extra spells, which will be necessary until you hit the higher levels and stop running out of them (and even then its an extra slot of your highest level spell available, which typically won't last all day). But if you like the idea of casting spells from 7 schools, then it doesn't matter that its technically mechanically inferior to specialization. Optimizing is fine, but no PrC is a must, especially for a wizard.


I am aware that abjurant champion is an amazing class for gishes, but seeing how my char is not a gish, it's not that great for her :P
I stopped playing gishes when I learned that 1 dispel magic will turn him/her to a useless waste of space, and a pure wizard who buffs his summons or himself with polymorph and tenser's or some other tricks can outfight the gish and still have superior spellcasting.

One trick gishes have that wizards don't is to go swiftblade, which turns your haste spell into an Extraordinary affect, and then cast anti-magic field on yourself.

[With a box]

I want to remind you that diviner only need to ban a single school, not two of them.

[Jeff the Green]

I am aware that abjurant champion is an amazing class for gishes, but seeing how my char is not a gish, it's not that great for her :P

First off, yes, prestige classes are primarily only useful for the archetypes they're supposed to help. There are other PrCs for other archetypes.

On the other hand, I've yet to see a Wizard that couldn't benefit from Abjurant Champion. Many have better things to do with their levels, but it never involves more levels of Wizard.

[Extra Anchovies]

Mage of the Arcane Order boosts your versatility even more; it requires Cooperative Spell, which is a feat tax, but gives you a metamagic feat so it evens out. Wizard 2/Master Specialist 3/Incantatrix 10/Mage of the Arcane Order 5 is a fairly solid metamagic-focused build, and gains six bonus feats to the wizard's five. One of those is eaten up in a feat tax for MotAO, but you're still at the same feat density as Wizard 20, but with oh so many more goodies. If you don't want to give up so many schools of magic (three, or four if you go master specialist), Elven Generalist 5 (skipping the fifth racial substitution level)/Incantatrix 10/MotAO 5 works pretty darn well too, and only loses one school.

[Karnith]

Wizard 20 is a perfectly playable build, because spells are silly, but there are quite a few PrCs that offer much, much more than they cost. The big baddies are PrCs like Incantatrix, Spelldancer, the tainted casting classes (Maho-Tsukai, Tainted Sorcerer, and Tainted Scholar), or the circle magic classes (Halruaan Elder, Hathran, and Red Wizard), which offer even more hilariously gamebreaking power in exchange for a few feats and maybe a school of magic. Slightly below those classes are a number of high-powered but less insane classes, like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil or Shadowcraft Mage. They require a fairly specialized entry, but offer big power boosts (in the given examples, through Wards or beefed-up shadow spells).

But even on a less absurd level (i.e. that you're actually likely to see in a game), many PrCs offer abilities at minimal costs, and can essentially give you back the cost you spent going in on top of actual class features - Mage of the Arcane Order, for example, costs 2 metamagic feats to get in and gives you two bonus metamagic feats plus class features, and other classes like Loremaster, Olin Gisir, or Alienist do likewise (though I wouldn't normally recommend Alienist for power reasons). Other classes have costs that you don't directly recoup, but that offer other abilities. Of my favorite caster PrCs, for example, Archmage costs 3 feats to get in, but gives several bonuses that are extremely useful, like Arcane Reach or Mastery of Shaping, Divine Oracle costs a feat to get in and offers defensive bonuses and extras on your divination spells, and Malconvoker is one of the few casting PrCs that drops a level and is probably still worth it anyway because of significant bonuses to summoning spells (including what is effectively free Twin Spell). You could even go with the no-cost PrCs, like Ruathar or Geometer, that you almost qualify for automatically by taking Wizard levels.

In the end, a Wizard is about spells, and Wizard 20 and Wizard 5/full-casting PrCs 15 will both end up with the same spells (generally). PrCing isn't necessary, but there also aren't that many full-casting PrCs that are worse than straight Wizard levels, and there are quite a few that are better.

[RoboEmperor]

Sure, but remember you won't need to always go incantrix. You are a wizard, once you have an eye for getting the decent spells, you will be incredibly powerful even without incantrix. Like not specializing, mechanically the added versatility is not worth the extra spells, which will be necessary until you hit the higher levels and stop running out of them (and even then its an extra slot of your highest level spell available, which typically won't last all day). But if you like the idea of casting spells from 7 schools, then it doesn't matter that its technically mechanically inferior to specialization. Optimizing is fine, but no PrC is a must, especially for a wizard.

Abjur
A ton of defensive spells, especially mind blank, so important

Conj
If I ban this school, I'm a retard :(

Div
Unbannable but doesn't matter, this school is awesome!

Ench
Role-play wise, my char uses a ****load of domination and charm spells outside of combat. Also has some nice buffs (heroism) and geas for weakening planar bound demons.

Evoc
I can do without this school, but contingency is too good >.<. Incantrix however is better so...

Illus
Shadow evocation, and invisibility spells. Too many save-or-else spells to my liking, but invisibility is too essential for me at this moment. Maybe I'll ban this instead of evocation if I can start at higher levels. Dunno. Let's not forget about mirror image too!

Necro
Debuffs + forever lasting undead to act as permanent fodder. Survivability is most important! Best of all, I can summon undead, then rest, then memorize other spells so I can benefit from this school greatly without ever having to use spell slots for it!

Trans
Buffs, so can't ban this.

Anyways, seems like the general consensus here is 20wizard is viable and playable, but there are a lot of gamebreaking optimization PrCs that are definately worth the feat cost, so it's all up to player preference and what books the DM allows. Thanks!

[Emperor Tippy]

Sure, but remember you won't need to always go incantrix. You are a wizard, once you have an eye for getting the decent spells, you will be incredibly powerful even without incantrix. Like not specializing, mechanically the added versatility is not worth the extra spells, which will be necessary until you hit the higher levels and stop running out of them (and even then its an extra slot of your highest level spell available, which typically won't last all day). But if you like the idea of casting spells from 7 schools, then it doesn't matter that its technically mechanically inferior to specialization. Optimizing is fine, but no PrC is a must, especially for a wizard.
Seriously not true. Generalist is hands down better than any type of specialist in terms of raw power and ability. Specialization strictly weakens any wizard that does it.

The most optimized choice for a wizard without LA is a Necropolitian Grey Elf, Elven Generalist, Spontaneous Divination, Domain Wizard (Abujuration, Anti-magic, or Transmutation).

As a wizard, if you are regularly running out of spells after about 3rd level then one of the following is true: 1) you don't know how to play a wizard optimally, 2) your DM is regularly exceeding the number of challenges that the DMG specifies for a given adventuring day.


One trick gishes have that wizards don't is to go swiftblade, which turns your haste spell into an Extraordinary affect, and then cast anti-magic field on yourself.
Or you just spend a single feat on Selective Spell and cast a Selective Anti-Magic Field on yourself and then laugh as you get the same effect for a far smaller expenditure of character build resources.

---
To the OP: Yes, there are a ton of PrC's that are worth the entry fee. Archmage is incredibly good. Arcane Reach is effectively a basically free, improved, version of Reach Spell. Mastery of the Elements is an improved version of Elemental Substitution as it lets you change the energy type of your spells on the fly. Spell-Like Ability on Shapechange is trading a 5th level spell slot for a 9th level spell slot and ensures that you will virtually always have access to Shapechange (and thus everything else in the game). Mastery of Shaping plus Mage's Disjunction is incredibly good and gets even better if you combine it with Sculpt Spell.

Mindbender should be a 1 level dip on pretty much every Wizard build. Telepathy opens up Mindsight and that is an incredibly good feat for an adventurer.

Most of the rest of the major wizard PrC's at least break even on their entry requirements and don't really weaken the character vs. going straight Wizard.

[Boci]

Seriously not true. Generalist is hands down better than any type of specialist in terms of raw power and ability. Specialization strictly weakens any wizard that does it.

Fair enough, my bad. But then again, domain wizard basically does the main draw of specialization: extra spells.


As a wizard, if you are regularly running out of spells after about 3rd level then one of the following is true: 1) you don't know how to play a wizard optimally, 2) your DM is regularly exceeding the number of challenges that the DMG specifies for a given adventuring day.

That seems a tad hyperbolic. A 4th level anti-magic domain wizard will have four 1st level spells and four 2nd level spells for 4 encounters, which would be spread thin even if they have no other out of combat utility spells. The extra spells from their domain are cool and all, but obscure object won't help them on a regular basis and protection from X is a buff spell and is only a game changer against summoned creatures and those who have no real attack that isn't mind influencing.

But hey, you have much more experience with PO than me. Can you give me a spell list for this 4th level wizard?


Or you just spend a single feat on Selective Spell and cast a Selective Anti-Magic Field on yourself and then laugh as you get the same effect for a far smaller expenditure of character build resources.

The fact that their own square isn't covered by the AMF can leave them vulnerable, say to AoE dropped down on them. Evard's black tentacles for example should catch the wizard but not the gish. You are getting like 80% of the combo for much less resources yes, but you are not getting the same effect.

Oh and one thing you overlooked:


The most optimized choice for a wizard without LA is a Necropolitian Grey Elf, Elven Generalist, Spontaneous Divination, Domain Wizard (Abujuration, Anti-magic, or Transmutation).

Enjoy your 1d4 hit points per level with no constitution bonus (necropolitant lacks the "and all future" clause of turning its hitdie into d12 that other undead templates have. There is no general rule of this either.)

[Astralia123]

There are a lot of wizard only prestige classes that have nearly 0 feat costs, although I seriously doubt the necessity to stick to the exact feat requirements or even the exact prestige classes when we are talking any campaign that is not an official world setting (like FR or EB).

Well I know there are DMs who stick to the written rules and DMs who are more flexible (and/or too flexible), and it is not that important.

Specifically saying to your situation, it must be admitted that most PrCs has a cost even when its rewards in the end balances the cost in terms of feat numbers. Very few PrCs focus on item crafting, and you cannot use these bonus feats to acquire item crafting feats. In addition, most item crafting PrCs focus on one single item crafting (like Runecaster and maybe even the Effigy master). You sometimes lose one or more CLs on such PrCs, and this makes Maester quite a dumb one, because losing CL effectively makes you a slower-progressing craftsman.

I would suggest you talk it with the divine caster in your team to see if you can allocate item crafting feats :)
Some PrCs also provide interesting abilities that are effectively item crafting, like Geometer (which gives you a cheaper version of scribe scrolls that in only usable by yourself), but someone else may know more than me :)

[RoboEmperor]

There are a lot of wizard only prestige classes that have nearly 0 feat costs, although I seriously doubt the necessity to stick to the exact feat requirements or even the exact prestige classes when we are talking any campaign that is not an official world setting (like FR or EB).

Well I know there are DMs who stick to the written rules and DMs who are more flexible (and/or too flexible), and it is not that important.

Specifically saying to your situation, it must be admitted that most PrCs has a cost even when its rewards in the end balances the cost in terms of feat numbers. Very few PrCs focus on item crafting, and you cannot use these bonus feats to acquire item crafting feats. In addition, most item crafting PrCs focus on one single item crafting (like Runecaster and maybe even the Effigy master). You sometimes lose one or more CLs on such PrCs, and this makes Maester quite a dumb one, because losing CL effectively makes you a slower-progressing craftsman.

I would suggest you talk it with the divine caster in your team to see if you can allocate item crafting feats :)
Some PrCs also provide interesting abilities that are effectively item crafting, like Geometer (which gives you a cheaper version of scribe scrolls that in only usable by yourself), but someone else may know more than me :)

Thanks for assuring me a pure wizard is better than PrCs for a crafter. I just looked over my build and I got 2 feat slots left over. I can either get quicken and empower/maximize spell, pick a PrC with only 1 feat tax, or get craft rings (unlikely) and craft rod (unlikely). I will be getting incantatrix as it provides 3 metamagic feats in exchange of 1 normal feat and 2 bonus feats I would've used on metamagic anyway but if incantatrix is not allowed, i'll be sticking to pure wizard. Maybe Ruathar if I can qualify for it in the adventure he has planned for me and abjurant champion if I can get ruathar.

I don't wanna go mega-high-optimization, but I don't want to be a waste of space either.

[Psyren]

As a wizard, if you are regularly running out of spells after about 3rd level then one of the following is true: 1) you don't know how to play a wizard optimally, 2) your DM is regularly exceeding the number of challenges that the DMG specifies for a given adventuring day.

You say that as though #2 is a bad thing. If the DMG isn't challenging the players, it's the GM's job to step things up.

[ninjamaster1991]

Just a reminder that Metaphysical Spellshaper is still an (incredibly broken) thing.


Or you just spend a single feat on Selective Spell and cast a Selective Anti-Magic Field on yourself and then laugh as you get the same effect for a far smaller expenditure of character build resources.
I may be wrong, but wouldn't Extraordinary Spell Aim work better for this particular purpose? It doesn't raise the spell level, after all


The fact that their own square isn't covered by the AMF can leave them vulnerable, say to AoE dropped down on them. Evard's black tentacles for example should catch the wizard but not the gish.

Enjoy your 1d4 hit points per level with no constitution bonus (necropolitant lacks the "and all future" clause of turning its hitdie into d12 that other undead templates have. There is no general rule of this either.)

First, I'm pretty sure that the square is still affected; both feats are effectively adding a clause to the spell, changing it to something like "All spells within the area are negated, except the ones cast by Caster McMagerson."

Second, from what I remember, the d12 hit dice are a feature of the Undead type, not the templates. Even if it isn't, there are ways to add other stats to HP.

[HMS Invincible]

My favorite thing to do is to give up my bonus feats for ACF like the augment summon line and then get the bonus feat back via prestige classes. No point keeping it if you're never going wizard 5.

[Boci]

Just a reminder that Metaphysical Spellshaper is still an (incredibly broken) thing.


I may be wrong, but wouldn't Extraordinary Spell Aim work better for this particular purpose? It doesn't raise the spell level, after all



First, I'm pretty sure that the square is still affected; both feats are effectively adding a clause to the spell, changing it to something like "All spells within the area are negated, except the ones cast by Caster McMagerson."

The gish isn't using a feat. They have a class feature that makes haste an Ex bonus and are casting AMF on themselves.


Second, from what I remember, the d12 hit dice are a feature of the Undead type, not the templates. Even if it isn't, there are ways to add other stats to HP.

Undead racial hitdie yes, but racial hitdie has no influence on the hitdie of the classes you take. And yes, there are, fey initiate mysterious specifically, but that is setting specific, and a fresh serving of cheese. Probably easier to just drop necropolitant.

[Urpriest]

You say that as though #2 is a bad thing. If the DMG isn't challenging the players, it's the GM's job to step things up.

Yeah, but the DM can always do so within the bounds of the CR system, so there's no motivation to mess with things like encounters/day and the like.

[Psyren]

Yeah, but the DM can always do so within the bounds of the CR system, so there's no motivation to mess with things like encounters/day and the like.

Increasing CR can achieve the same result but it's more dangerous to do. If a given monster is already challenging, bumping up its stats can easily lead to just one-shotting someone in the party or an outright TPK. (Alternatively, you could increase the wrong stats - e.g. increasing a dire animal's size, doubling its Str/Con/AC and lighting its claws on fire, then watching in stunned silence as it gets Ego Whipped to death anyway.)

Whereas simply having more challenging encounters of the same CR means that the players have less of a chance of wipe, but have to burn more of their per-day resources to take it down.

[Tvtyrant]

Pure wizard is weaker than some broken PRCs, but not greatly weaker than the majority of caster prcs. Especially if you go Generalist Elf Wizard with the Collegiate Wizard feat to get +2 spells known per level after level 1, doubling your spells known. This bypasses DM fiat and the cost of scribing spells, and as we all know the more spells the better.

Edit: You can technically combine this with domain wizard for all of the arcane power. This is RAI shaky but 100% RAW approved, so ask your DM. I like the storm domain because it nets you none-wizard spells, but several of them are extremely strong.

You also can use the Contingency spell and Craft: Contingency feat to replace a lot of the immediate action abilities, like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veils' veil ability.

[Urpriest]

Increasing CR can achieve the same result but it's more dangerous to do. If a given monster is already challenging, bumping up its stats can easily lead to just one-shotting someone in the party or an outright TPK. (Alternatively, you could increase the wrong stats - e.g. increasing a dire animal's size, doubling its Str/Con/AC and lighting its claws on fire, then watching in stunned silence as it gets Ego Whipped to death anyway.)

Whereas simply having more challenging encounters of the same CR means that the players have less of a chance of wipe, but have to burn more of their per-day resources to take it down.

If the party has fewer resources than they need for an encounter they'll TPK as surely as if the encounter was too optimized. Remember, it's not just casters that depend on per-day resources: burn through the Barbarian's Rages and you're in just as bad a place. Put in another way, you're just optimizing encounters in another direction, quantity vs. quality, and the game breaks under optimization no matter how you do it.

[Psyren]

If the party has fewer resources than they need for an encounter they'll TPK as surely as if the encounter was too optimized. Remember, it's not just casters that depend on per-day resources: burn through the Barbarian's Rages and you're in just as bad a place. Put in another way, you're just optimizing encounters in another direction, quantity vs. quality, and the game breaks under optimization no matter how you do it.

But this is just the caster question posed a different way. Past level 5 or so, are any Barbarians really running out of rage rounds? Are Gunslingers and Rangers running out of ammo? And what are Fighters and Rogues running out of?

[Boci]

And what are Fighters and Rogues running out of?

The conventional argument is they run out of HP, as well accumulating debuffs in the process, like state damage, custom defibss from monsters (a few have hours long duration).

[ninjamaster1991]

The gish isn't using a feat. They have a class feature that makes haste an Ex bonus and are casting AMF on themselves.

I never said they were; in the first part of my quote, I was asking about the relative merits of Extraordinary Spell Aim as opposed to Selective Spell, and in the second, I was saying that both feats (ESA and SS) kept AoE's out.



Undead racial hitdie yes, but racial hitdie has no influence on the hitdie of the classes you take. And yes, there are, fey initiate mysterious specifically, but that is setting specific, and a fresh serving of cheese. Probably easier to just drop necropolitant.

Necropolitan is often worth it at character creation for casty types, as turning 7-8 Con into - Con raises your HP, and the bucketload of immunities it gives you more than makes up for it.

[Boci]

I never said they were; in the first part of my quote, I was asking about the relative merits of Extraordinary Spell Aim as opposed to Selective Spell, and in the second, I was saying that both feats (ESA and SS) kept AoE's out.

Okay, but they've excluded themselves from the spells affect, so logically magic will now affect them, even if it cannot exist in their square or the next it can still exist within them. That may be very niche though, possibly even none existent. Can you cast bestow curse through an anti-magic field? Because if you can, you should be able to target a wizard who has SS or ESA the affect of the AMF off of themselves.


Necropolitan is often worth it at character creation for casty types, as turning 7-8 Con into - Con raises your HP, and the bucketload of immunities it gives you more than makes up for it.

Only if you compare it to a wizard with 10 or lower con. And even then he will jump ahead as soon as con boosting items come online.

[Jeff the Green]

Pure wizard is weaker than some broken PRCs, but not greatly weaker than the majority of caster prcs. Especially if you go Generalist Elf Wizard with the Collegiate Wizard feat to get +2 spells known per level after level 1, doubling your spells known. This bypasses DM fiat and the cost of scribing spells, and as we all know the more spells the better.

While Elven Generalist and Collegiate Wizard are nice, it doesn't work quite like that. Elven Generalist gives you an additional spell known of every level you have access to each level. Collegiate Wizard gives you +3 known at 1st and +2 known at every other level. Also, it has no bearing on whether PrCs are good unless you either go into one of the few PrCs that don't progress spells known (a wording that many hold to be a screw up) because they both give you spells known when you gain a Wizard level and PrCs give you spells known "as if you had gained a level in" Wizard.

[ace rooster]

The long adventuring day thing neglects that wizards are the only class that has a built in way to excede their per day limits. They get scribe scroll as a bonus feat. Long days happen sometimes. A prepared wizard is better able to deal with it than many classes, and a wizard is always prepared :smallcool:.

Pure wizard is probably not 'optimal', but it is certainly not bad. As pointed out the bonus feats are really useful for a crafter, and even without any feats they are generally the most powerful and versitile force on the battlefield. Extra power is nice, but hardly required.

[ninjamaster1991]

Okay, but they've excluded themselves from the spells affect, so logically magic will now affect them, even if it cannot exist in their square or the next it can still exist within them. That may be very niche though, possibly even none existent. Can you cast bestow curse through an anti-magic field? Because if you can, you should be able to target a wizard who has SS or ESA the affect of the AMF off of themselves.
That's a very common mistake, but it's incorrect. None of the space in the 20' diameter ESM/SS AMF is actually excluded - those people are just immune to the effect.
To illustrate the difference, take Fireball. The way you (and lots of people) think it works is the equivalent of using Shape Spell to put a hole in it, in that that specific square isn't affected by that Fireball. However, the way it works is similar to a custom version of Fireball that gives a certain number of people Fire Immunity for that single moment the Fireball hits — the area still includes them, they just don't take any damage from it. The same sort of thing happens with Freedom of Movement and being underwater, as you're still underwater, you just can act normally. Also, if Selective Spell and Shape Spell did the same thing, why have both?


Only if you compare it to a wizard with 10 or lower con. And even then he will jump ahead as soon as con boosting items come online.

Which is exactly why I said "turning 7-8 CON into - Con". The intention is that the sooner you apply Necropolitan to your wizard, the less disadvantage there is to dumping CON, moving the stat points into INT or DEX, and erasing the negative modifier while keeping the stat points.
Rather cheesy? Yes. Often-used? Also yes. Does it have a thematic background? If a wizard notices that zombies go down in the same number of hits no matter who they were made from, it isn't implausible, especially given almost superhuman INT.

[HMS Invincible]

Seriously not true. Generalist is hands down better than any type of specialist in terms of raw power and ability. Specialization strictly weakens any wizard that does it.
The most optimized choice for a wizard without LA is a Necropolitian Grey Elf, Elven Generalist, Spontaneous Divination, Domain Wizard (Abujuration, Anti-magic, or Transmutation).
As a wizard, if you are regularly running out of spells after about 3rd level then one of the following is true: 1) you don't know how to play a wizard optimally, 2) your DM is regularly exceeding the number of challenges that the DMG specifies for a given adventuring day.

Do you have any links to past arguments that explain why specializing is worse? Domain wizard is cheating, kinda sorta. I mean do you really need enchant/evocation?

[Boci]

That's a very common mistake, but it's incorrect. None of the space in the 20' diameter ESM/SS AMF is actually excluded - those people are just immune to the effect.

Right, and the effect of the AMF to make the area "impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities." With either of those feats (yes both would probably be redundant, but maybe you could stack them), the caster can make themselves immune to the effect. At which point nothing is preventing bestow curse from affecting them, because they have excluded themselves from the effect, unless AMF blocks lines of effect, they can be targeted.


Which is exactly why I said "turning 7-8 CON into - Con". The intention is that the sooner you apply Necropolitan to your wizard, the less disadvantage there is to dumping CON, moving the stat points into INT or DEX, and erasing the negative modifier while keeping the stat points.
Rather cheesy? Yes. Often-used? Also yes. Does it have a thematic background? If a wizard notices that zombies go down in the same number of hits no matter who they were made from, it isn't implausible, especially given almost superhuman INT.

I'll give you thematic, but no, this is not cheesy (not without fey initiate mysterious), and unless you have statistics compiled, you cannot claim it is often used.

[RoboEmperor]

Do you have any links to past arguments that explain why specializing is worse? Domain wizard is cheating, kinda sorta. I mean do you really need enchant/evocation?

Enchanting has heroism, arguable one of the best buffs as morale bonus stacks with everything and gives morale bonus to almost everything.
Enchanting also has all of the domination and charm spells for out of combat use. I regularly dominate NPCs to use as fodder or to extract information, etc.

Evocation has contingency and there are a LOT of people who say greater shadow evocation doesn't work with contingency.

[Divide by Zero]

My issue with the AMF shenanigans is that it doesn't block line of effect (unless your DM rules that it does, in which case you can't cast out of it either aside from instantaneous conjurations), so you're only really protected from area attacks and touch attacks/magic weapons.

[ranagrande]

Another oft-overlooked advantage of staying Wizard is that they get two free spells per level. These free spells are a function of the Wizard's Spellbook class feature and thus not generally advanced by prestige classes.

[Jeff the Green]

Another oft-overlooked advantage of staying Wizard is that they get two free spells per level. These free spells are a function of the Wizard's Spellbook class feature and thus not generally advanced by prestige classes.

Already covered that.


Also, it has no bearing on whether PrCs are good unless you either go into one of the few PrCs that don't progress spells known (a wording that many hold to be a screw up) because they both give you spells known when you gain a Wizard level and PrCs give you spells known "as if you had gained a level in" Wizard.

[Threadnaught]

Enjoy your 1d4 hit points per level with no constitution bonus (necropolitant lacks the "and all future" clause of turning its hitdie into d12 that other undead templates have. There is no general rule of this either.)

It also lacks the "current" clause, meaning a Necropolitan gets 0HP and is therefore unplayable, harr harr, take that Tippy, Fighter roolz Wizzerd droolz.

Are we quite finished picking on the lack of "current and all future" yet?

[Boci]

It also lacks the "current" clause, meaning a Necropolitan gets 0HP and is therefore unplayable, harr harr, take that Tippy, Fighter roolz Wizzerd droolz.

Are we quite finished picking on the lack of "current and all future" yet?

What? Its says "Hitdie: Change all to d12", so no, a 1st level necropolitant wizard would clearly have d12, but all subsequent hitdie from wizard levels would be d4. And no we are not quite done, we will be quite done when people know this. Tippy has an incredible knowledge of the 3.5 system, and yet he evidently missed this detail.

[Urpriest]

But this is just the caster question posed a different way. Past level 5 or so, are any Barbarians really running out of rage rounds? Are Gunslingers and Rangers running out of ammo? And what are Fighters and Rogues running out of?

Remember, in 3.5, Barbarians don't split Rage into rounds. Unless you know your DM is planning to run lots of encounters, you probably won't take Extra Rage more than once. Go past the normal number of encounters and pretty soon the Barbarian can't rage every encounter.

Others have pointed out that most of the martial classes can run out of hp. This is a weaker argument, since of course wands are available. Still, debuffs have been pointed out, and remain relevant.

If you're running at near-Tippy levels of optimization, then the Fighters will be running out of Contingent Resurrections.

[Threadnaught]

What? Its says "Hitdie: Change all to d12", so no, a 1st level necropolitant wizard would clearly have d12, but all subsequent hitdie from wizard levels would be d4. And no we are not quite done, we will be quite done when people know this. Tippy has an incredible knowledge of the 3.5 system, and yet he evidently missed this detail.

Are you sure about that?


Hit Dice
All current and future Hit Dice become d12s.


Hit Dice
Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.


Hit Dice
Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.


Necropolitan states "all Hit Dice" but doesn't say whether they're "current" or "future" therefore Necropolitan have no Hit Dice. Or all HD are d12s.

[Boci]

Necropolitan states "all Hit Dice" but doesn't say whether they're "current" or "future" therefore Necropolitan have no Hit Dice. Or all HD are d12s.

Or "all hit dice" refers to all hit dice when the template is acquired, but afterwards has no effect on hit die later acquired. This is the most logical reading of RAW, and has president (mummy lords have cleric levels, and use d8 for them). So no, there is a middle ground, that happens to be the most logical reading and fits with how templates work in general.

[Astralia123]

Thanks for assuring me a pure wizard is better than PrCs for a crafter. I just looked over my build and I got 2 feat slots left over. I can either get quicken and empower/maximize spell, pick a PrC with only 1 feat tax, or get craft rings (unlikely) and craft rod (unlikely). I will be getting incantatrix as it provides 3 metamagic feats in exchange of 1 normal feat and 2 bonus feats I would've used on metamagic anyway but if incantatrix is not allowed, i'll be sticking to pure wizard. Maybe Ruathar if I can qualify for it in the adventure he has planned for me and abjurant champion if I can get ruathar.

I don't wanna go mega-high-optimization, but I don't want to be a waste of space either.

Well, if you are a dwarf and willing to sacrifice some caster levels, then Race of Stone would support you with some extra crafting capabilities.
Runesmith usually would cost one level to fulfill the prerequisites but you can share your spells with teammates, which could effectively work like an magic item. Battlesmith is not a wizard PrC but if you try you can get it within 2 caster level loss, and one level of Battlesmith is worth 3 caster levels when determining what item you can craft.

It may be too much a sacrifice to lose 2 caster levels, though, so persuade your cleric to use Battlesmith if possible.

[Astralia123]

Just a reminder that Metaphysical Spellshaper is still an (incredibly broken) thing.


I may be wrong, but wouldn't Extraordinary Spell Aim work better for this particular purpose? It doesn't raise the spell level, after all



First, I'm pretty sure that the square is still affected; both feats are effectively adding a clause to the spell, changing it to something like "All spells within the area are negated, except the ones cast by Caster McMagerson."

Second, from what I remember, the d12 hit dice are a feature of the Undead type, not the templates. Even if it isn't, there are ways to add other stats to HP.

Well in this case Selective Spell totally worths it, as extraordinary spell aim may be considered leaving the space which the character occupies uncovered by AMF, and thus leave the character vulnerable.


That's a very common mistake, but it's incorrect. None of the space in the 20' diameter ESM/SS AMF is actually excluded - those people are just immune to the effect.
To illustrate the difference, take Fireball. The way you (and lots of people) think it works is the equivalent of using Shape Spell to put a hole in it, in that that specific square isn't affected by that Fireball. However, the way it works is similar to a custom version of Fireball that gives a certain number of people Fire Immunity for that single moment the Fireball hits — the area still includes them, they just don't take any damage from it. The same sort of thing happens with Freedom of Movement and being underwater, as you're still underwater, you just can act normally. Also, if Selective Spell and Shape Spell did the same thing, why have both?

I must add, no where did the two feat descriptions add "it actually works like immunity", especially when spell immunity actually works like spell resistance. And naturally, ESA is more likely to be rationalized as excluding the target from spell effect area than selective spell.
There is a general rule (maybe I should add it in the helpful unwritten rule thread): when rule arguments conflicts with your common sense, better use your common sense. When you put your rule arguement in some certain ways, you are actually asking extra advantage from the DM.

And yes, creature immune to fire still get their equipment destroyed by fire spells when they roll 1 in save, so we can see it is not the case.

[Threadnaught]

Or "all hit dice" refers to all hit dice when the template is acquired, but afterwards has no effect on hit die later acquired. This is the most logical reading of RAW, and has president (mummy lords have cleric levels, and use d8 for them). So no, there is a middle ground, that happens to be the most logical reading and fits with how templates work in general.

Mummy Lord? You've got to be kidding me, why not compare an Undead Template to a Wight, Allip or Atropal Scion as well?


Mummy Lord is a Monster, a Mummy advanced by Class Levels rather than Hit Dice. Necropolitan is a Template.

[Boci]

Mummy Lord? You've got to be kidding me, why not compare an Undead Template to a Wight, Allip or Atropal Scion as well?


Mummy Lord is a Monster, a Mummy advanced by Class Levels rather than Hit Dice. Necropolitan is a Template.

Right, but once the template is applied, the necropolitant creature also advances by class levels. Wizard levels are class levels. Why should future class levels be affected by the template, unless it specifies it specifies it does, (which it doesn't)?

What is your argument? Undead need d12 to substitute class hitdie to make up for their lack of a con mod? No argument from me against that, its a perfectly reasonably houserule, but not RAW, at least not by the evidence you have presented.

[HMS Invincible]

Enchanting has heroism, arguable one of the best buffs as morale bonus stacks with everything and gives morale bonus to almost everything.
Enchanting also has all of the domination and charm spells for out of combat use. I regularly dominate NPCs to use as fodder or to extract information, etc.

Evocation has contingency and there are a LOT of people who say greater shadow evocation doesn't work with contingency.

While I don't completely agree about enchanting, I actually kept enchantment and dropped illusion because of the Domination/charm line. It was a crutch early on to get easy info out of npcs, a lotta fun while it lasted. Later on, everyone became immune to enchantments, and I banned it with incantatrix. I haven't needed contingency often, but when I do, I craft it. Shadow magic can be covered by illusion. Really this seems more of an argument not to be a focused specialist or an incantatrix. There doesn't seem to be that big a drawback for banning evocation or enchantment. Maybe all the splat books power them back up?

[Chronos]

Evocation and enchantment might offer less than the other schools, but they still offer enough that it's not worth dropping them. Evocation is Wall of Force and Forcecage and the various wind spells and Darkness and the hand spells, and heck, sometimes you do just want to dump a whole bunch of d6 into an area. Enchantment is useless against the large set of things that are immune to it, of course, but even at the highest levels, that's not everything.

[Astralia123]

Evocation and enchantment might offer less than the other schools, but they still offer enough that it's not worth dropping them. Evocation is Wall of Force and Forcecage and the various wind spells and Darkness and the hand spells, and heck, sometimes you do just want to dump a whole bunch of d6 into an area. Enchantment is useless against the large set of things that are immune to it, of course, but even at the highest levels, that's not everything.

Mostly force spells and contigency. In the d6 case, some conjuration spells from Complete Arcane can do that as well.
Enchantment spells are so great when you deal with humanoids. Some can afford such a loss, though, as even when they do not ban enchantment, they mostly use conjurations like glittering dust and stinking clouds. Other things in Enchantment school may be as great and handy, but again many wizards will not memorize them at all and thus it matters little if they ban it.

[Threadnaught]

What is your argument? Undead need d12 to substitute class hitdie to make up for their lack of a con mod?

Nope, my argument is that Necropolitan doesn't specify which HD become d12s, beyond all, but that doesn't really explain enough. Is it all Racial HD? All Class HD? All Current HD?
Because it doesn't specify, going by the ruling you gave earlier, Necropolitan keep the HD they had before taking the Template.
Take that Tippy, Fighters roolz, Wizzerdz droolz, yadda yadda.

[Boci]

Nope, my argument is that Necropolitan doesn't specify which HD become d12s, beyond all, but that doesn't really explain enough. Is it all Racial HD? All Class HD? All Current HD?
Because it doesn't specify, going by the ruling you gave earlier, Necropolitan keep the HD they had before taking the Template.

But that's an illogical reading. "All HD" covers both racial HD and class HD, because they are both HD. Furthermore, "all hit die" excludes all HD not yet gained, because that is how logic works, this is never to my knowledge an issue with non-undead templates. Nobody argues its unclear if a creature that becomes an outsider through a template may or may not substitute fitire class HD for outsider racial hitdie.
Since no mention is made of changing that, the current HD of a necropolitant (-1 lost during the conversion) becomes d12, but future ones will not receive any special treatment, and as such future class HD will be unchanged.

My apologize for not being more unreasonable, as you wish for me to argue that fighters are better than wizards seems to indicate.

[darksolitaire]

re: spell schools.

If you can use campaign specific splats, there's chain of three feats in Lost Empires of Faerun that lets a Wizard to recover one prohibited school at 10th level at earliest. Diversified Casting feat from Drag Mag gives you ability to pick and use three spells from prohibited school and can be picked once per school. If your group is like mine and plays with two flaws and most material allowed, specializing and focused specializing just became more attractive.

[Jeff the Green]

Evocation and enchantment might offer less than the other schools, but they still offer enough that it's not worth dropping them. Evocation is Wall of Force and Forcecage and the various wind spells and Darkness and the hand spells, and heck, sometimes you do just want to dump a whole bunch of d6 into an area. Enchantment is useless against the large set of things that are immune to it, of course, but even at the highest levels, that's not everything.

Not to mention the fact that Evocation has some good debuffs (just going off of memory, great thunderclap and crushing grip are worth having) and Enchantment has some good buffs. Admittedly, both of those areas are covered by other schools (Necromancy and Transmutation, notably), but it does mean that they're far from the "only do damage that's blocked by SR" and "only manipulate people who aren't immune to mind-affecting" schools some people make them out to be.

[Twilightwyrm]

You can modify an area spell so that it does not affect one designated creature within it's area. All other creatures in the spell's area are affected normally. Selective spell has no effect on target or effect spells. A Spelective spell uses a slot one level higher than the spells normal level

In this case, I was wrong, and Selective Spell can in fact be applied just fine to Antimagic Field. In this case, you could argue for some sort of Immunity net effect, though D&D terminology being what it is, I would not call it that. This does not quite solve the problem Astralia123 put forward, but I can see the argument for how it could. Basically, since the spell states "The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines". Unlike Extraordinary Spell Aim below, this metamagic feat does not require any shaping to put you outside the field of effect. You are effectively within the area of the Antimagic Field, you (and presumably the items you are carrying) are just unaffected by its properties. You aren't your own little bubble, you are fully within it. So I can certainly see the argument of why this works.

In terms of Extraordinary Spell Aim, I cannot agree that it effectively makes you actually immune, however. It reads:



Whenever you cast a spell with an area, you can attempt to shape the spell's area so that one creature within the area is unaffected by the spell. To accomplish this, you must succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 25 + spell level). Casting a spell affected by the Extraordinary Spell Aim feat requires a full-round action unless the spell's normal casting time is longer, in which case the casting time is unchanged.

Unlike Selective Spell, it does not simply exclude targets from being effected (if it did, I might agree with some sort of "Immunity" net effect), it requires you to shape the spell's area. Even going with the most liberal interpretation possible, that you can shape the effect exactly to the shape of your figure and have this shaped area change as you move (otherwise parts of your body would start falling into the AMF zones), you are still technically outside the spell, not simply immune to it. This distinction means that any spell that does not have line of effect blocked can still legitimately target you. More likely, you are creating a safe 5'x5'x6-10' safe cube to operate in, meaning that certain effects can still be conjured in your square. Nowhere does it even hint at immunity.

EDIT: Thanks to squiggit for pointing out the issue. Should be fixed.

[squiggit]

I feel it should be noted, for the record, that the Selective Spell Metamagic Feat cannot actually by applied to an Anti-Magic Field.



Seeing as how Anti-Magic Field has a duration of "10 min./level", that would render it ineligible for application of selective spell, unless you could find some way to make it Instantaneous (which I'm sure is entirely possible, but still relevant nonetheless).

This is a 3.5 thread, at least as far as I can tell with them talking about Incantrix and stuff

[Twilightwyrm]

This is a 3.5 thread, at least as far as I can tell with them talking about Incantrix and stuff

Ah I see. Serves me right for using google without making sure ti was the right source. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Chronos]

Conjuration is as good as evocation, or better, at doing a bunch of d6 to a single target, thanks to the Orb spells (which really should be evocation, but that's another issue). It's definitely better than evocation for putting down battlefield control in an area, such as Grease, Solid Fog, or Black Tentacles. It isn't so hot, however, at doing damage in an area. Which is, as I said, a small niche, but it's still there.

[Astralia123]

Conjuration is as good as evocation, or better, at doing a bunch of d6 to a single target, thanks to the Orb spells (which really should be evocation, but that's another issue). It's definitely better than evocation for putting down battlefield control in an area, such as Grease, Solid Fog, or Black Tentacles. It isn't so hot, however, at doing damage in an area. Which is, as I said, a small niche, but it's still there.

When you talk it in that way, well, there are still some differences. Conjuration comes very awkward when faced with incorporate creature and ethereal creatures. Orb of force allows you damage them, but it is arguable that other creation instantaneous spells may simply go through them without normal 50% damage chance as their damage effects are technically non-magical. Just like how evocation damage spell become awkward in front of golems, different immunities can be conquered with damage spells that have different mechanics. So are those spells which works by creating solid materials, just what you mentioned right now.

I haven't seen an over-confident conjurer get outsmarted by a DM in this way yet, though, maybe because incorporeal creatures can be defeated by weapon attacks anyway.


Not to mention the fact that Evocation has some good debuffs (just going off of memory, great thunderclap and crushing grip are worth having) and Enchantment has some good buffs. Admittedly, both of those areas are covered by other schools (Necromancy and Transmutation, notably), but it does mean that they're far from the "only do damage that's blocked by SR" and "only manipulate people who aren't immune to mind-affecting" schools some people make them out to be.

Just what I said. I can't wait to see my PCs frustrated when they ban enchantment and find out it is going to be a politics campaign in which they are going to deal often with difficult maggots - an example of a lesson about "in what cases are enchantment spells definitely needed". Likewise, they may as well face up elven battle groups slinging Sleep about (which is actually noted in MM) and unfriendly maggot VIP aristocrats who are controlled by constantly renewed Charm Person spell.

[Jeff the Green]

Just what I said. I can't wait to see my PCs frustrated when they ban enchantment and find out it is going to be a politics campaign in which they are going to deal often with difficult maggots - an example of a lesson about "in what cases are enchantment spells definitely needed". Likewise, they may as well face up elven battle groups slinging Sleep about (which is actually noted in MM) and unfriendly maggot VIP aristocrats who are controlled by constantly renewed Charm Person spell.

Maggots are mindless and thus immune to Enchantment effects.

[aleucard]

To summarize;

Is Wizard 20 < Wizard+PrC? For the most part, yes. The only thing that the second group misses out on is some of the Wizard bonus feats (and some of the ACF's that you'd want as well, some allow you to pick which bonus feat slot gets taken for it) and on occasion the free 2 (or more, with certain things) spells the Wizard gets per level. Even discounting this, some PrC's have things in them that's worth delaying spell levels. Not many, true, but still.

Is Wizard 20 bad for this? The correct answer is a resounding, universal NO. Wizard 20 is T1 based exclusively on the things it has without any levels in PrC's whatsoever. As such, in the vast majority of games, you will still be able to do basically whatever the Hell you want within 24 hours, including make Martials cry. If you can't make do with Wizard 20, having access to PrC's isn't going to help much; at that point, it's more likely not the character's fault.

[Astralia123]

Maggots are mindless and thus immune to Enchantment effects.

I accidentally mistook it with muggles. Laugh at me.

[Threadnaught]

But that's an illogical reading. "All HD" covers both racial HD and class HD, because they are both HD. Furthermore, "all hit die" excludes all HD not yet gained, because that is how logic works

And also logic dictates that using the term "all HD" to describe future HD, is a poor choice of words if you're arguing that the term "all HD" doesn't include future HD.
Seriously, you're calling me illogical and patronizingly attempting to explain logic while making a mistake like that?
You threatened the integrity of your argument by not checking your wording.

Also, that's not the only logical outcome.
You're arguing that "All HD" refers to "All current/remaining HD", while I'm stating my belief that it actually means "All current/remaining and future HD".
Now the real problem arises in that both ways are the logical outcome, it may seem odd, but I understand why you've been reasoning what you have. However, you seem intent on proving me wrong regardless of the fact that the HD part of the Necropolitan Template is as ambiguously worded as I stated.

Look at Skeleton and Zombie.


Hit Dice
Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1) and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s. If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can’t be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell.


Hit Dice
Drop any Hit Dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1), double the number of Hit Dice left, and raise them to d12s. If the base creature has more than 10 Hit Dice (not counting those gained with experience), it can’t be made into a zombie with the animate dead spell.

Both are Undead Templates and both acknowledge the loss of HD and remaining HD. Something not seen with Necropolitan.0


this is never to my knowledge an issue with non-undead templates.

Because non-undead templates are well known for changing HD.


My apologize for not being more unreasonable, as you wish for me to argue that fighters are better than wizards seems to indicate.

Any real discussions I desire that involve the Fighter Class, are either how much they suck, or how much more interesting Monk is.


Also for future reference, it's Necropolitan. Sorry, it's just been bugging me a little, seeing you spell it with that second "T".

[HMS Invincible]

Maggots are mindless and thus immune to Enchantment effects.

If a political campaign would make a wizard feel bad for banning enchantment,then how would a fighter or barb feel? None of the magic and a quarter of the skill points. A wizard who can't enchant is still better off than a mundanes class. That's why your example is bad.

[darksolitaire]

If a political campaign would make a wizard feel bad for banning enchantment,then how would a fighter or barb feel? None of the magic and a quarter of the skill points. A wizard who can't enchant is still better off than a mundanes class. That's why your example is bad.

Fighter and Barbarian are the ones talking softly and carrying a big stick. While making a good treaty with Russia.

[HMS Invincible]

Those sticks are enhanced with my magic. And did I not mention I have magic?

[Boci]

And also logic dictates that using the term "all HD" to describe future HD, is a poor choice of words if you're arguing that the term "all HD" doesn't include future HD.
Seriously, you're calling me illogical and patronizingly attempting to explain logic while making a mistake like that?
You threatened the integrity of your argument by not checking your wording.

No it doesn't, template don't time travel. When a template says "change type to X", that means the current type, not future types. Unless otherwise specified, aquired templates will not be time traveling, because they apply to the creature at a specific moment. Similarly, when instructed by the lycanthrope template to increase the hybrid and animal forms natural AC bonus to that of the base animal, that doesn't mean it cannot be later increased.


Also, that's not the only logical outcome.
You're arguing that "All HD" refers to "All current/remaining HD", while I'm stating my belief that it actually means "All current/remaining and future HD".
Now the real problem arises in that both ways are the logical outcome, it may seem odd, but I understand why you've been reasoning what you have. However, you seem intent on proving me wrong regardless of the fact that the HD part of the Necropolitan Template is as ambiguously worded as I stated.

Maybe, but then you base most of your reasoning for questioning the wording of the template on other undead templates, which is RAW. Its precedent on which to base a houserule.



Both are Undead Templates and both acknowledge the loss of HD and remaining HD. Something not seen with Necropolitan.

The poster who accuses me of using the inappropriate example of a mummy lord (an intelligent undead) in comparison to the necropolitan (an intelligent undead) now seems to think two unintelligent undead are totally valid comparisons.


Any real discussions I desire that involve the Fighter Class, are either how much they suck, or how much more interesting Monk is.

And using it to make fallacies that are so removed from the other's argument they cease to be straw men and become more straw abstracts works of art. Seriously, how do you get wizards are worse than fighters from my post? Translation party?

Maybe you are right and I am being too harsh here. To find out why, perhaps you can read your first post to me and not the dismissive tone (and the straw abstract art) which I feel may have set the tone for our discussion. In any case this is pointless, because even if you are right and it is ambiguous, that still leaves the issue with "depends on DM". Making the necropolitan template useless for TO and unreliable for PO, which means you need to mention that in a disclaimer when recommending it as the one of the most powerful options for a wizard, because one of the most poweful options at level one should never leave you with 1d4 hit points / level as a logical reading of the rules, even if there is an alternative, equally logical ruling for d12.

[Extra Anchovies]

Regardless of the RAW on Necropolitans and future hit dice, any DM who tells a Necropolitan wizard that they get d4 hit dice is going to suddenly find themselves minus one player.

Incidentally, Necropolitan is my favorite type of ice cream.

[Boci]

Regardless of the RAW on Necropolitans and future hit dice, any DM who tells a Necropolitan wizard that they get d4 hit dice is going to suddenly find themselves minus one player.

Meh, using the pathfinder version of hitdie is better still, as it allows martial to be undead too.

Also ninjamaster1991 didn't seem to have a problem with the DM ruling that way.

[Threadnaught]

Boci, I thought after my most recent post that I should apologise for how our discussion started, since I made it before properly reflecting on your stance.

Your most recent response made me reconsider as it is just as insulting in parts, but I fired the first shot and both of us seem to understand that neither of us is blameless, so I'm okay with it.


And I'm sorry for the insulting parts of my posts. If you want them removing, I will do so, but request that you extend the same courtesy.

[Jeff the Green]

If a political campaign would make a wizard feel bad for banning enchantment,then how would a fighter or barb feel? None of the magic and a quarter of the skill points. A wizard who can't enchant is still better off than a mundanes class. That's why your example is bad.

Wuh huh? I'm genuinely confused by what you mean.

[VoxRationis]

If a political campaign would make a wizard feel bad for banning enchantment,then how would a fighter or barb feel? None of the magic and a quarter of the skill points. A wizard who can't enchant is still better off than a mundanes class. That's why your example is bad.

I'd argue that enchantment is in many ways better for a dungeon crawl (assuming the dungeon contains enchantable creatures, and many contain them almost exclusively) than for a political campaign. Charm and dominate spells are not the substitute for social skills that they are often made out to be. Give a good speech with well-reasoned arguments and a silver tongue, and the court will applaud you as the king decides to help you. Stand in the middle of the court and wave your arms about while speaking words of arcane power, and people will get suspicious when the king suddenly changes his mind (assuming the guards didn't just attack you as soon as your spell started). Those concerns do not apply in a fight against a bunch of hobgoblins.

[Threadnaught]

Forgot to address these three points.


The poster who accuses me of using the inappropriate example of a mummy lord (an intelligent undead) in comparison to the necropolitan (an intelligent undead) now seems to think two unintelligent undead are totally valid comparisons.

Undead Templates, like Necropolitan. Which lose Class HD, like Necropolitan.

Skeleton and Zombie unambiguously explain what happens to remaining and future HD, not like Necropolitan.

Again, Mummy Lord isn't a Template, in the same way Dwarf, Elf and Ogre aren't Templates.


even if you are right and it is ambiguous

What do you mean IF? I've shared five other Templates that fully explain which HD are lost, which become a d12 and the limits on taking the Template.
Necropolitan states that the creature may lose up to 2HD and must have at least 1xp remaining after losing a level and 1000xp.


that still leaves the issue with "depends on DM". Making the necropolitan template useless for TO and unreliable for PO, which means you need to mention that in a disclaimer when recommending it as the one of the most powerful options for a wizard, because one of the most poweful options at level one should never leave you with 1d4 hit points / level as a logical reading of the rules, even if there is an alternative, equally logical ruling for d12.

Even if the Wizard were left with 1d4 HP per level, Undead have nice immunities, which I'll go into later, and Necropolitan get all those without any LA. It just costs 3000gp, 1-2HD and 1000xp.
Also, why so obsessed with level 1? At the least, it should take a character until 3rd level to get the HD/xp requirement, 4th for the gp requirement.

Even after that, back to the immunities. You no longer need to eat, sleep or breathe. You are not subject to Fatigue or Exhaustion. You are immune to all Poisons and Disease. You are immune to Paralysis and Stunning. You are immune to Critical Hits and Nonlethal Damage. You are immune to Mind Affecting abilities and powers. You are immune to Death effects. Energy Drain heals you. You heal 1HP per HD per day after resting. You're resistant to Turning and Command Undead.

With d4HD, it's great. With d12HD it's amazing.

[HMS Invincible]

Wuh huh? I'm genuinely confused by what you mean.
I was quoting the guy you quoted but it didn't catch the guy's name. Hard to type on a phone.

[Boci]

Undead Templates, like Necropolitan. Which lose Class HD, like Necropolitan.

A template which loses all class hitdie and can never gain more (which wouldn't need to be specified if "all hitdie" logically included future hitdie), compared to a template that loses 1 or 2 class hitdie and then has no problem gaining them back. Hmmm....


What do you mean IF?

That I don't believe your reading is just as logical as mine. Sorry, can't help how I feel.


Also, why so obsessed with level 1? At the least, it should take a character until 3rd level to get the HD/xp requirement, 4th for the gp requirement.

I've never had any problem with a 1st level necropolitan in a 1st level party, under the assumption that you were 3rd level and then had the template applied to you, knocking you back to 1st. Missing gold can be payed later.


Even after that, back to the immunities. You no longer need to eat, sleep or breathe. You are not subject to Fatigue or Exhaustion. You are immune to all Poisons and Disease. You are immune to Paralysis and Stunning. You are immune to Critical Hits and Nonlethal Damage. You are immune to Mind Affecting abilities and powers. You are immune to Death effects. Energy Drain heals you. You heal 1HP per HD per day after resting. You're resistant to Turning and Command Undead.

With d4HD, it's great. With d12HD it's amazing.

So its probably a bad idea to increase the hit die to d12?



And I'm sorry for the insulting parts of my posts. If you want them removing, I will do so, but request that you extend the same courtesy.

I'm sorry too. No need as far as I'm concerned to remove posts, even if the tone is a bit nasty there is an argument in them for others to read. Just don't start off a post claiming someone thinks fighters are better than wizards (and certainly don't say it a second time) unless they said it pretty unambiguously, because I am pretty sure I am still downplaying any potential merit your argument may have because of that. Also:


Bboci

If you are going to take the time to point out that I am spelling a template wrong, you can take the time to make sure you have spelt my user name correctly.

[Threadnaught]

A template which loses all class hitdie and can never gain more (which wouldn't need to be specified if "all hitdie" logically included future hitdie), compared to a template that loses 1 or 2 class hitdie and then has no problem gaining them back. Hmmm....

A Mindless creature, yes I know, and the Templates go on to fully explain what happens to the remaining HD and how a Skeleton/Zombie gains additional HD.


I've never had any problem with a 1st level necropolitan in a 1st level party, under the assumption that you were 3rd level and then had the template applied to you, knocking you back to 1st. Missing gold can be payed later.

Yeah, I have no problem either. I'm not sure whether I'd house rule that the Necropolitan PC would be able to function at 0xp, they had xp but couldn't gain until the rest of the party caught up or just give them 1-500xp and leave them to it, but no problem with allowing it.


So its probably a bad idea to increase the hit die to d12?

Nah. It's a bad idea to allow it in a game where the rest of the party is low Tier, but the HD is only a problem due to wording.


I'm sorry too. No need as far as I'm concerned to remove posts, even if the tone is a bit nasty there is an argument in them for others to read.

Aye and even after we both apologized and have stopped sniping at eachother, or at least as obviously/intentionally, we're still having this discussion. Perhaps we need our own thread to prevent action from Roland. Yes, we still reference Wizard every so often, but let's face it, we're really discussing Necropolitan.
We've discussed Necropolitan to death, we've also done quite a bit of the Undead Templates in MM1, but to really discuss how to treat the Necropolitan Hit Die, we must bring more 3.5e Undead Templates into our discussion.


If you are going to take the time to point out that I am spelling a template wrong, you can take the time to make sure you have spelt my user name correctly.

Yeah, my bad. That was far too obvious to miss. :smallsigh:

Caps lock has never exactly worked perfectly on this system, I never use Shift for Caps unless I'm doing symbols as with D&D, but if I'm doing just capitals like whenever I refer to myself as "I", I use Caps. Most of the time it just gives me the single capital letter, but every few times I use it, I get a second, lower case version of the letter I used Caps for.
I usually catch these immediately and I also give most of my posts a quick read through before posting, to catch any glaring errors.