Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?

[...]

I mean, think about it. He may have been perfectly lawful and good in life, but some of the actions he has taken in death really take his alignment in the opposite direction. What does everyone else think?

[brian 333]

I think the angel with the briefcase will have some words for him at the very least, and his climb up the mountain will be a difficult one.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

In his original interview, it seemed that he was able to enter except that he had an unfulfilled Oath. Since then, Eugene has of course done many other things, but I think that if he was able to enter the afterlife earlier, nothing he has done since has been drastic enough to change that.

[Keltest]

The only thing I can think of that he has done that would possibly influence his alignment away from LG is replacing the being of pure law and good, and even that is only one act, performed through necessity in order to contact his son about the fulfillment of an oath.

[NerdyKris]

I agree. The few things he's done since his death don't negate a lifetime of actions. Being lawful doesn't mean being Miko, and being good doesn't mean you have to be a saint.

[DaggerPen]

I feel like deliberately burning the evidence that your son's teammate has committed genocide and further unwittingly jeopardized the security of the Gates after promising to pass the information about it on to said son probably merits at least a stern lecture from a deva.

[Jay R]

The question can't even come up until Xykon is defeated, at which time things will be different from now.

[ti'esar]

I feel like deliberately burning the evidence that your son's teammate has committed genocide and further unwittingly jeopardized the security of the Gates after promising to pass the information about it on to said son probably merits at least a stern lecture from a deva.

Don't forget how approving Eugene seems to be of V's actions in general, either. I'm pretty sure he's not actually including familicide, but still, kind of a damning (no pun intended) indicator of his moral state.

[veti]

Meta answer:

I used to think that once you were on the cloud, actually getting into Celestia was a foregone conclusion, and the interview was a formality designed more to prepare you than assess your worthiness.

But then the Giant took the time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17213673&postcount=25) to post explicitly to shoot that theory down. That's not something he often does. When you look at the number of contradictory ideas swanning about here on any given day, it's not hard to deduce that most of them must be wrong, but there's only a few that he goes out of his way to correct. They're usually the more popular ones, but as far as I know I was the only person pushing this one.

So why did he bother to correct me?

My new theory: because of what it implies about Eugene. He's not going to get into Celestia.

[Darth Paul]

I think Veti's right, but not because of the Giant's post:

I think Eugene blew it with his character changes since his arrival in the afterlife.

When he arrived (this is just what I have gathered based on what we have seen of Eugene in the various books), he was borderline Lawful in that he probably followed the laws but didn't go out to uphold them; he wasn't a champion of Lawfulness, just an average schmoe who was not a criminal.

He was borderline Good in that he never murdered any defenseless victims, massacred any peasants, or burned down any villages, but at the same time Eugene didn't go out to oppose the burners and murderers, even though as a high-level Illusionist he had a fair amount of capability; all the adventuring that we know he did was in pursuit of Xykon, and when that went sour he retired to raise a family.

So, not Evil, but not exceptionally Good. Not Chaotic, but not exceptionally Lawful. He squeaked into Celestia; except for the Blood Oath.

But since that time, Eugene has shown that the only thing motivating him anymore is his own selfish desire to get off that freaking cloud and into Celestia. He has no concern for what has to be done to accomplish this or who may suffer, or, indeed, who may die, so that Eugene Greenhilt gets his prize.

And when the ends justify the means, one is walking down the Evil path.

I'm pretty certain that Eugene is now Neutral at best. He may even, given his unconcern over the Familicide spell wiping out hundreds of living creatures, and his willingness to risk a recurrence by not warning Roy about it, be actually Evil now. Maybe I'm judging him too harshly, but I find that concealing evidence of, and voicing your approval of, a mass murder, should qualify as Evil in OotS-world or IRL, either way.

So there's my opinion. When (if) Roy completes the Blood Oath, I think Eugene is in for a big surprise as to which way he is headed.

[factotum]

I disagree strongly with Eugene not being Lawful. To reiterate something that's often said, Lawful does not mean "follows the laws". Eugene shows his Lawful side in his personality; as his wife said, when he sets his mind on doing something, he will spend all his resources on doing that thing as well as he can. He might tire of it after a few years (as he did with the hunt for Xykon and his marriage) and move on to something else, but while he's concentrating on that one thing, nothing else matters.

That is not the hallmark of a Chaotic or even Neutral personality, IMHO.

It's my opinion that Eugene's actions on the cloud are also deriving from his extreme Lawfulness--he's getting so frustrated at being powerless to guide his own destiny that he's grabbing at any chance he can to guide it in the direction he wants.

Now, the Good/Evil axis is perhaps harder to judge, but Eugene's wife said he was a Good man and I don't see that anything he's done on the Cloud has actively hurt anyone, so I certainly wouldn't say he's Evil.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Meta answer:

I used to think that once you were on the cloud, actually getting into Celestia was a foregone conclusion, and the interview was a formality designed more to prepare you than assess your worthiness.

But then the Giant took the time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17213673&postcount=25) to post explicitly to shoot that theory down. That's not something he often does. When you look at the number of contradictory ideas swanning about here on any given day, it's not hard to deduce that most of them must be wrong, but there's only a few that he goes out of his way to correct. They're usually the more popular ones, but as far as I know I was the only person pushing this one.

So why did he bother to correct me?

My new theory: because of what it implies about Eugene. He's not going to get into Celestia.

However, the Giant says
Generally speaking, a character who really is alignment X on the inside will be admitted to plane X with no problems, except in certain special circumstances (Eugene, for example).
which, to me, is saying that Eugene would be getting in without the special circumstance. Also, while the Giant's quote says that not everyone in the clouds is necessarily LG, Eugene has been confirmed as able to enter Celestial in the previous interview.

[Heksefatter]

My guess is that Eugene will undergo another review after the blood oath is fulfilled. My further guess is that Eugene at that time will not be considered LG. I think that he will be considered True Neutral and sent to the appropriate afterlife.

My reasons:

- He assaulted a celestial being in order to replace it as it was being summoned to dispense advice.

- He rigged a trial.

- He is selfish and uncaring.

- Most damning of all, he outright approved of V's deal with the devil/daemon/demon.

This is by no means conclusive. There is plenty of room for reasonable disagreement. It is entirely my guess.

[factotum]

- He is selfish and uncaring.

- Most damning of all, he outright approved of V's deal with the devil/daemon/demon.


I'm sure you'd probably get a bit selfish after being stuck on a cloud with nothing to do for three years--there's no evidence Eugene was like that in life. As for "approving" of the deal, he can approve of V's techniques (e.g. going straight after Xykon with all the power at his disposal) without approving of the methods he used to get the power in the first place.

[Jasdoif]

I'm sure you'd probably get a bit selfish after being stuck on a cloud with nothing to do for three years--there's no evidence Eugene was like that in life.Huh. The impression I got from other characters' accounts and flashbacks (most of them in Start of Darkness) is that Eugene was that selfish in life....And yet he still was funneled to the LG afterlife when he died, and only the Blood Oath kept him out then. So I don't see why being just as selfish after he died would change the situation.

[Keltest]

Huh. The impression I got from other characters' accounts and flashbacks (most of them in Start of Darkness) is that Eugene was that selfish in life....And yet he still was funneled to the LG afterlife when he died, and only the Blood Oath kept him out then. So I don't see why being just as selfish after he died would change the situation.

My understanding is that while he was always grumpy and snarky (rather like Roy, now that I think about it), it wasn't until after he sat around on the clouds for a while that he got the "Don't forget about me, sitting here, unable to move on" attitude he has now.

[Throknor]

I think the angel with the briefcase will have some words for him at the very least, and his climb up the mountain will be a difficult one.

Don't forget how approving Eugene seems to be of V's actions in general, either. I'm pretty sure he's not actually including familicide, but still, kind of a damning (no pun intended) indicator of his moral state.

Why do you assume he knows about the Familicide? He was probably watching Roy and only followed V after V said "I'm going to kill Xykon!". He definitely didn't read the report. So while he may have seen the two attached spirits and recognized it as a sold-his-soul deal, as far as he's concerned that was just V's own personal choice. He may not know the full depths of V's choices or actions to that point. Even if he did, thinking 'Those dragons got what they deserved' is nowhere near the same moral stance as actually delivering the killing blow, and there's little reason for E to over think full ramifications of the spell if he did witness it.

And to be sure, he hasn't reappeared to Roy since. So unless he does then destroying the evidence might not even be noticed.


Huh. The impression I got from other characters' accounts and flashbacks (most of them in Start of Darkness) is that Eugene was that selfish in life....And yet he still was funneled to the LG afterlife when he died, and only the Blood Oath kept him out then. So I don't see why being just as selfish after he died would change the situation.

Selfishness is not inherently evil, and we definitely haven't seen enough of his life to judge him better than the devas. Even Roy's mother sticks up for him & stayed with him when alive; being a jerk doesn't mean a person isn't Good on the D&D scale.

[Jay R]

Eugene will get in, brought in directly by Roy after Roy earns him the right to go in by fulfilling the blood oath. But he will not get in in his current form.

He will be transformed into a picture, with the exact look on his face (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) from when he heard that Roy could go up the first time.

Maybe a 50-foot marble statue...

[zinycor]

My guess is that Eugene will undergo another review after the blood oath is fulfilled. My further guess is that Eugene at that time will not be considered LG. I think that he will be considered True Neutral and sent to the appropriate afterlife.

My reasons:

- He assaulted a celestial being in order to replace it as it was being summoned to dispense advice.

- He rigged a trial.

- He is selfish and uncaring.

- Most damning of all, he outright approved of V's deal with the devil/daemon/demon.

This is by no means conclusive. There is plenty of room for reasonable disagreement. It is entirely my guess.

mmm... assaulting a celestial being and rigging a trial may be motives enough for not being admitted into celestia, but being selfish and uncaring and approving of V's methods certainly isn't. Being an ******* isn't evil or chaotic, and even if Eugene knows about V's deal with the demons (which i think he doesn't) he didn't take any part on that deal or had any power to stop it from happening.

for Eugene being good iremember something which isn't talked about very much:

He stayed with his family instead of going for revenge against Xykon, for me this is something an evil character would never do, it isn't much, but we don't know much about Eugene either

[ti'esar]

for Eugene being good iremember something which isn't talked about very much:

He stayed with his family instead of going for revenge against Xykon, for me this is something an evil character would never do, it isn't much, but we don't know much about Eugene either

I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that Eugene didn't qualify as lawful good when he died. It's his actions since his death that have thrown his alignment into question.

[zinycor]

I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that Eugene didn't qualify as lawful good when he died. It's his actions since his death that have thrown his alignment into question.

I know, and certainly some of those actions may be enough, it's just that people throw so much **** at Eugene that i wanted to remember a moment that was quite significant for me when i was reading SoD.

On topic:

Even if Eugene doesn't go into a LG afterlife, he may end up in a CG afterlife... i think he would be even happier on that one :smalltongue:. i don't think his actions would be bad enough to make take him out from Good though.

[Heksefatter]

mmm... assaulting a celestial being and rigging a trial may be motives enough for not being admitted into celestia, but being selfish and uncaring and approving of V's methods certainly isn't. Being an ******* isn't evil or chaotic, and even if Eugene knows about V's deal with the demons (which i think he doesn't) he didn't take any part on that deal or had any power to stop it from happening.

for Eugene being good iremember something which isn't talked about very much:

He stayed with his family instead of going for revenge against Xykon, for me this is something an evil character would never do, it isn't much, but we don't know much about Eugene either

The being selfish and uncaring isn't enough in itself, but it counts if we look at the bigger picture. It pulls him down on the alignment scale.

It is also true that while Eugene didn't have the power to stop V, he did know that V was dealing with the forces of evil, got the details of it from the deva and destroyed said evidence. And he approved.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html

[zinycor]

The being selfish and uncaring isn't enough in itself, but it counts if we look at the bigger picture. It pulls him down on the alignment scale.

It is also true that while Eugene didn't have the power to stop V, he did know that V was dealing with the forces of evil, got the details of it from the deva and destroyed said evidence. And he approved.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html

destroying the evidence is a very unlawful thing to do, but am not sure approving something or not is an evil action itself, not even sure if that is an "action", am not sure you may judge alignment solely on "You judged that evil thing to be right".

And i don't see how being uncaring would be near enough to shift eugene to neutral in any way... it's just not ideal.

[factotum]

I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that Eugene didn't qualify as lawful good when he died. It's his actions since his death that have thrown his alignment into question.

But that was the point I was making earlier. Being common-or-garden Lawful Good isn't like being a paladin--you don't lose it by performing a single evil or chaotic act. What he's done since he died has to be balanced against what he did while alive, and we simply don't know enough about the latter to make that sort of judgement call.

[ti'esar]

But that was the point I was making earlier. Being common-or-garden Lawful Good isn't like being a paladin--you don't lose it by performing a single evil or chaotic act. What he's done since he died has to be balanced against what he did while alive, and we simply don't know enough about the latter to make that sort of judgement call.

Keep in mind, though, this is a story, which means what's shown to the audience can be somewhat disproportionately important. In that light, I can't but help think it's a little telling that I don't think we've seen any behavior from the post-mortal Eugene that really qualifies as LG.

[Heksefatter]

destroying the evidence is a very unlawful thing to do, but am not sure approving something or not is an evil action itself, not even sure if that is an "action", am not sure you may judge alignment solely on "You judged that evil thing to be right".

And i don't see how being uncaring would be near enough to shift eugene to neutral in any way... it's just not ideal.

Regarding the first, it is just my guess. I know for certain that if I was the GM of the Stickworld, I would mark that down as subtracting from Eugene's lawful goodness. However, I am not the GM, and cannot say if the Giant agrees. It is also possible that the celestial devas do not put all that much stock into intent. Who can say? I am making educated guesses.

As for the selfishness, again if I was the GM, and I looked at a character, who was selfish and uncaring, I would let it matter, when looking at the big picture. I would say that Eugene has been doing some very questionable things and on top of that, he is a selfish man, who cares little for others. He may have been lawful good earlier, but he was never exactly a paragon of the alignment, and now, we see all the other stuff - assaulting devas, destroying the evidence of a deal with the forces of darkness, and even approving of said deal.

[zinycor]

Regarding the first, it is just my guess. I know for certain that if I was the GM of the Stickworld, I would mark that down as subtracting from Eugene's lawful goodness. However, I am not the GM, and cannot say if the Giant agrees. It is also possible that the celestial devas do not put all that much stock into intent. Who can say? I am making educated guesses.

As for the selfishness, again if I was the GM, and I looked at a character, who was selfish and uncaring, I would let it matter, when looking at the big picture. I would say that Eugene has been doing some very questionable things and on top of that, he is a selfish man, who cares little for others. He may have been lawful good earlier, but he was never exactly a paragon of the alignment, and now, we see all the other stuff - assaulting devas, destroying the evidence of a deal with the forces of darkness, and even approving of said deal.

yeah, it certainly depends of the DM and the kind of game you are playing, i happen to think that personality quirks or defects are great for LG characters (and every character), since i can give them more personality beyond "am a saint" and while they can lead to a character commiting actions that will make his alignment change, is not the character quirk that makes him fall from grace, it's his actions in the world.

In this case in particular Eugene is selfish and uncaring, which explain why he assaulted a deva and destroyed evidence sent from the higher-ups. But I would judge him on his actions, not his attitude, if we did, for me it would be the same as; " you don't come into our afterlife because we don't like you", and it should be "you don't deserve to come into our afterlife".


having said that i got another question: is there any indication that the devas are able to judge any posthumous
action?

[Rogar Demonblud]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html

In the third panel, Roy's Archon has something to say on this subject.

[...]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html

In the third panel, Roy's Archon has something to say on this subject.

How would Roy's Archon even know anything that Eugene did? He obviously just assumed that since he was going to make it into heaven, he hasn't stopped being lawful good.

[Keltest]

How would Roy's Archon even know anything that Eugene did? He obviously just assumed that since he was going to make it into heaven, he hasn't stopped being lawful good.

He does have a point though. Unless he has undergone a radical change of personality since sitting on the cloud AND secretly gone on a malicious haunting of people since his death, his ability to alter his alignment in any meaningful way is seriously limited.

[Heksefatter]

yeah, it certainly depends of the DM and the kind of game you are playing, i happen to think that personality quirks or defects are great for LG characters (and every character), since i can give them more personality beyond "am a saint" and while they can lead to a character commiting actions that will make his alignment change, is not the character quirk that makes him fall from grace, it's his actions in the world.

In this case in particular Eugene is selfish and uncaring, which explain why he assaulted a deva and destroyed evidence sent from the higher-ups. But I would judge him on his actions, not his attitude, if we did, for me it would be the same as; " you don't come into our afterlife because we don't like you", and it should be "you don't deserve to come into our afterlife".


having said that i got another question: is there any indication that the devas are able to judge any posthumous
action?

I fully agree that personality quirks are great for lawful good characters and anyone else. But those quirks can still pull them down from being lawful good. Let's say that a paladin has a cruel streak that he tries to rein in. That's fine for a story, but if he gives in too much, he risks not being lawful good anymore.

As for the stuff about posthumous actions, it is an interesting point that I've considered myself. Who knows? I remember an old Exalted campaign, set in a universe where posthumous actions explicitly do not matter. The players had an ally, a wise old monk, who had lived a pure life: No sex, no meat, no alcohol, plenty of excercise and hard work. Then he died, and haunted his monastery, with the ghost doing all the stuff it could never do in life. And the ghost was fully aware that its actions did not affect its status in the next life. The players exorcised the ghost by engaging it in a debate about what we are speaking about now: "If you haunt like that, you were the kind of man in life, who, as soon as the restaints were off, would act like a buffoon. Your true intent, which shows now, invalidates much of your good actions in life."

[veti]

He does have a point though. Unless he has undergone a radical change of personality since sitting on the cloud AND secretly gone on a malicious haunting of people since his death, his ability to alter his alignment in any meaningful way is seriously limited.

But we don't know what alignment he was at death.

The fact that he's on the cloud only proves (per the Giant's post, linked previously) that he had 'LG' written on his character sheet. The character sheet that, itself, may well have stopped being updated when the character retired from adventuring.

We don't know what happened at his interview, or whether he even had one. Maybe a deva simply appeared and said "well, normally we'd review your record for admission at this time, but because of this Blood Oath that you willingly contracted and then dumped on your son, there's not much point, you'll just have to wait here until it's fulfilled".

[ti'esar]

But we don't know what alignment he was at death.

The fact that he's on the cloud only proves (per the Giant's post, linked previously) that he had 'LG' written on his character sheet. The character sheet that, itself, may well have stopped being updated when the character retired from adventuring.

We don't know what happened at his interview, or whether he even had one. Maybe a deva simply appeared and said "well, normally we'd review your record for admission at this time, but because of this Blood Oath that you willingly contracted and then dumped on your son, there's not much point, you'll just have to wait here until it's fulfilled".

Uh, we saw his interview in SOD.

And it made it pretty clear that the Blood Oath was the only thing keeping him from getting in.

[Killer Angel]

Uh, we saw his interview in SOD.

And it made it pretty clear that the Blood Oath was the only thing keeping him from getting in.

Yes, that's true. At that time, it was so.
But now? your actions while you wait upon a cloud, for someone else to fullfill your oath, could add some footnotes to your curriculum... enough to gain a rewiew of your case.
.

[ti'esar]

Yes, that's true. At that time, it was so.
But now? your actions while you wait upon a cloud, for someone else to fullfill your oath, could add some footnotes to your curriculum... enough to gain a rewiew of your case.
.

I agree, actually. I'm just countering veti's suggestion that we don't even know whether his case originally got a review.

[hamishspence]

I agree, actually. I'm just countering veti's suggestion that we don't even know whether his case originally got a review.

The review stops the moment the Blood Oath is brought up and Eugene is unable to present a "Completion of Blood Oath certificate" after claiming "I completed that - must be a clerical error".

[zinycor]

I fully agree that personality quirks are great for lawful good characters and anyone else. But those quirks can still pull them down from being lawful good. Let's say that a paladin has a cruel streak that he tries to rein in. That's fine for a story, but if he gives in too much, he risks not being lawful good anymore.



Quirks don't pull a character down from LG, actions do, Eugene may fall from LG for assaulting a pure good and law being, or for burning very important documents sent by the higher ups. But he wouldn't fall for being selfish and uncaring or approving of V's actions, these things would explain why he did the unlawful or evil things he did, but I don't think he would be judged based on his selfishness or his ability to judge what is wrong.

[ti'esar]

Quirks don't pull a character down from LG, actions do, Eugene may fall from LG for assaulting a pure good and law being, or for burning very important documents sent by the higher ups. But he wouldn't fall for being selfish and uncaring or approving of V's actions, these things would explain why he did the unlawful or evil things he did, but I don't think he would be judged based on his selfishness or his ability to judge what is wrong.

What a character approves of may not shift their alignment, but it can certainly be a good indicator for it. Back when Malack's alignment was still up in the air, one of the main reasons I felt he was evil was that he was friends with Tarquin - a neutral character might have conceivably gone along with Tarquin's plans for the greater good, but he wouldn't have actually liked the guy. And so while approving of Darth V won't make Eugene evil or anything like that, it does suggest that he may no longer be exactly Lawful Good enough for Celestia.

[zinycor]

What a character approves of may not shift their alignment, but it can certainly be a good indicator for it. Back when Malack's alignment was still up in the air, one of the main reasons I felt he was evil was that he was friends with Tarquin - a neutral character might have conceivably gone along with Tarquin's plans for the greater good, but he wouldn't have actually liked the guy. And so while approving of Darth V won't make Eugene evil or anything like that, it does suggest that he may no longer be exactly Lawful Good enough for Celestia.

I guess it could be, but we know that roy and the others travel with belkar, and Durkon has even risked his life for him, does that make him less lawful and good? of course not. Besides, i don't really remember any part that said that malack liked tarquin, they were party compacions just like Belkar and Durkon.

As for Eugene approving Darth V (which probably he doesn't since nothing indicates he knows nothing about, how V obtained that power") makes total sense, since he has always said that destrying Xykon is a task for a wizard. I believe his motivation goes on the line of: "well, she had a great idea there, a shame it didn't succeed, but, Why bother the only person who can do something with these little problems? better get rid of it"

[Heksefatter]

I guess it could be, but we know that roy and the others travel with belkar, and Durkon has even risked his life for him, does that make him less lawful and good? of course not. Besides, i don't really remember any part that said that malack liked tarquin, they were party compacions just like Belkar and Durkon.

As for Eugene approving Darth V (which probably he doesn't since nothing indicates he knows nothing about, how V obtained that power") makes total sense, since he has always said that destrying Xykon is a task for a wizard. I believe his motivation goes on the line of: "well, she had a great idea there, a shame it didn't succeed, but, Why bother the only person who can do something with these little problems? better get rid of it"

But Eugene did know a bit about V's actions. He was told by the Deva that the papers Eugene received that "It details the elf wizards alarming dealings with the forces of evil."

We don't know how Much Eugene knows, but we do know that he approved dealings with the forces of evil.

[factotum]

We don't know how Much Eugene knows, but we do know that he approved dealings with the forces of evil.

No, he just didn't *disapprove* of those dealings sufficiently to want to hobble the only person in the Order who he felt was actually doing anything to stop Xykon. By your same logic, we can argue that Roy is evil because he clearly approves of using the evil Belkar to help stop Xykon.

Also, as stated already, Eugene didn't know the *details* of V's evil dealings. He didn't know that he'd dealt with three major-league evil beings, and that the price of that deal would potentially affect the team's ability to stop Xykon--he'd have passed it on in a heartbeat if he'd known that.

[ti'esar]

By your same logic, we can argue that Roy is evil because he clearly approves of using the evil Belkar to help stop Xykon.

Roy did have to defend his association with Belkar to the deva, though. By no means am I arguing that Eugene is evil - and while I can't speak with certainty, I don't think anyone else is either - just that, as I put it earlier, he may no longer be Lawful Good enough for Celestia.

[Heksefatter]

No, he just didn't *disapprove* of those dealings sufficiently to want to hobble the only person in the Order who he felt was actually doing anything to stop Xykon. By your same logic, we can argue that Roy is evil because he clearly approves of using the evil Belkar to help stop Xykon.

Also, as stated already, Eugene didn't know the *details* of V's evil dealings. He didn't know that he'd dealt with three major-league evil beings, and that the price of that deal would potentially affect the team's ability to stop Xykon--he'd have passed it on in a heartbeat if he'd known that.

If someone speaks about "the forces of evil" to the degree that it calls for celestial intervention in the form of a warning, it is pretty big. Bigger than just having a murderer in your party. What's more, Eugene had every chance to learn the details, since he got the papers on the case. He either read them and didn't care, or didn't even care enough to read them.

I do agree that Eugene would have passed on the papers, if he knew that the matter could affect the Order's chances to beat Xykon, but mostly because it affects himself. The three major-league evil beings, he has shown no sign of caring about.

[Throknor]

Roy did have to defend his association with Belkar to the deva, though. By no means am I arguing that Eugene is evil - and while I can't speak with certainty, I don't think anyone else is either - just that, as I put it earlier, he may no longer be Lawful Good enough for Celestia.

But there is no 'enough'. There isn't a Lawful-Good-Ish afterlife. The only way he could be stopped is if he is completely bereft of lawfulness or of goodness. While his methods may be arguable, he is still actively trying to get Xykon destroyed - a good intention. Other than being a jerk the only two new actions are highjacking a summons and burning the evidence. If those are against anything they'd be against his lawfulness.

[hamishspence]

But there is no 'enough'. There isn't a Lawful-Good-Ish afterlife. The only way he could be stopped is if he is completely bereft of lawfulness or of goodness. While his methods may be arguable, he is still actively trying to get Xykon destroyed - a good intention. Other than being a jerk the only two new actions are highjacking a summons and burning the evidence. If those are against anything they'd be against his lawfulness.

Actually there are two in core D&D - one for the Law-leaning and one for the Good-leaning (Arcadia and Byopia respectively). Or even the TN afterlife (Outlands), for those who are N but lean slightly toward other alignments like Law and Good.

The reference to "heaven or hell, valhalla or the abyss, limbo or nirvana, or a dozen in between"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html

strongly suggests something similar applies to OoTS.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Actually there are two in core D&D - one for the Law-leaning and one for the Good-leaning (Arcadia and Byopia respectively). Or even the TN afterlife (Outlands), for those who are N but lean slightly toward other alignments like Law and Good.

The reference to "heaven or hell, valhalla or the abyss, limbo or nirvana, or a dozen in between"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html

strongly suggests something similar applies to OoTS.

Also, Word of Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?337752-Regarding-the-Moral-State-of-Young-Souls&p=17213673#post17213673) says that it follows D&D cosmology as well.

[Jay R]

The reason he still gets into the LG paradise is the same reason Roy wasn't kicked over to the Neutral Good one - he's trying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html).

Eugene is very, very trying.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The reason he still gets into the LG paradise is the same reason Roy wasn't kicked over to the Neutral Good one - he's trying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html).

Eugene is very, very trying.

I think this might be my favorite reason yet.

[zinycor]

If someone speaks about "the forces of evil" to the degree that it calls for celestial intervention in the form of a warning, it is pretty big. Bigger than just having a murderer in your party. What's more, Eugene had every chance to learn the details, since he got the papers on the case. He either read them and didn't care, or didn't even care enough to read them.

I do agree that Eugene would have passed on the papers, if he knew that the matter could affect the Order's chances to beat Xykon, but mostly because it affects himself. The three major-league evil beings, he has shown no sign of caring about.

well, Roy himself turned the angel down, so I guess celestial intervention isn't that big of aa deal on the OOTS universe (frankly neither is on the games i have played xD), so if Roy thought that was irrelvant I think is only normal that Eugene thinks so too

[mouser9169]

Lawful Good does not mean adhering to the Paladin' Code.

Good people do evil things all the time, their alignment doesn't automatically flip to evil.
Evil people do good things all the time, their alignment doesn't automatically flip to good.

If Eugene qualified when he went up, he still qualifies now. Even rigging the trial wasn't an Evil act, and you can even argue that it _was_ a Lawful one since it allowed Roy to continue following the Blood Oath.

[ti'esar]

Lawful Good does not mean adhering to the Paladin' Code.

Of course not - but to bring a flippant remark back in a more serious fashion, as the deva emphasized to Roy what really matters when it comes to alignment is whether you're trying to live up to it. Do we really have a reason to believe Eugene is trying?

[Killer Angel]

If Eugene qualified when he went up, he still qualifies now.

Isn't this exactly what are we debating? That now he may be no more totally LG?
For example, Eugene's behavior in afterlife, is very selfish... and this is more neutral than good.

[factotum]

the deva emphasized to Roy what really matters when it comes to alignment is whether you're trying to live up to it. Do we really have a reason to believe Eugene is trying?

I don't think that's what she meant. She meant that in a marginal case like Roy's the whole "trying" thing is important--it would be less so in the case of someone who, say, was really trying hard to be Lawful Good, but couldn't resist burning down every orphanage they walked past.

[Killer Angel]

I don't think that's what she meant. She meant that in a marginal case like Roy's the whole "trying" thing is important--it would be less so in the case of someone who, say, was really trying hard to be Lawful Good, but couldn't resist burning down every orphanage they walked past.

That orphanage attacked me! :smallbiggrin:

[Keltest]

That orphanage attacked me! :smallbiggrin:

Orphanages are one of the deadliest predators known to people seeking an excuse for random destruction.

[Jay R]

Orphanages are one of the deadliest predators known to people seeking an excuse for random destruction.

It had a gazebo in back. I had to attack.

[INoKnowNames]

If Eugene qualified when he went up, he still qualifies now. Even rigging the trial wasn't an Evil act, and you can even argue that it _was_ a Lawful one since it allowed Roy to continue following the Blood Oath.

I'll agree that it certainly wasn't Evil to intervene in a trial; to attack and restrain a being of pure law and good to do so, however, screams of Chaos (and even the Deva made herself clear on this matter). And it allowed Roy to follow a Blood Oath that was made in a Chaotic Mindset by a man who lost interest and the will to follow it in his own life time, and only continues to follow it now because his eternal resting place can't be decided until it gets cleared up.

Quite frankly, while I wouldn't say that he's going to Hell or anything, Roy is a man trying to be Lawful (though veering Chaotic here or there in following it), while Eugene seems to only follow what rules are convenient to him or his goals. I'd be willing to swallow that he's a good man, but we've personally seen far more examples of him being Chaotic than we have of seeing him being Lawful, and if Roy was in danger of being thrown to the Neutral Good afterlife, my bet is such that Eugene's more likely than not going to be sent there.

He qualified to be tested for his chance at getting into the Lawful Good afterlife. He could have failed that test even before the Blood Oath, and since trying to lead Roy, Eugene certainly doesn't seem to be very Axiomatic. Hell, Eugene was willing to cover up genocide, even when asked by a being of Law and Good, if it meant Roy continuing his adventuring. That's sure as hell not Lawful.

[Sith_Happens]

I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that Eugene didn't qualify as lawful good when he died. It's his actions since his death that have thrown his alignment into question.

Part of the question is whether those actions count in the first place. As far as we know so far one's judgment in an afterlife is based solely on one's actions in life, in which case the most anyone in Celestia can do is give him a slap on the wrist*. There's also the fact that Eugene is technically an Outsider now, and there's been no indication so far that Outsiders in the OotS-verse are even capable of changing alignment (they are by the game rules, though it's a one-in-a-trillion event at most).

* On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if they had an entire legion of Legal Devas specialized in getting exactly this kind of case kicked over to Arcadia.

[Throknor]

Of course not - but to bring a flippant remark back in a more serious fashion, as the deva emphasized to Roy what really matters when it comes to alignment is whether you're trying to live up to it. Do we really have a reason to believe Eugene is trying?

To be pedantic, Eugene isn't alive anymore; he's an oathspirit. He can't live up to anything.

Remember Violet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html)? She didn't seem to think the adultery was going to be a problem getting in. Eugene states there's nothing to do except 'watch the living or hook up'. Generally speaking with little else possible there might not be a system for re-judging an oathspirit as there's little they could do to influence anything of importance.

I've had a suspicion the judgement itself is for show anyway and souls are pre-sorted. Similar to the guilt-for-sex, it's something the Lawful Good expect so they go through it. Just as Lawful Evil expect a bureaucratic inbox (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0918.html) and everything that goes along with it.

[hamishspence]

I've had a suspicion the judgement itself is for show anyway and souls are pre-sorted. Similar to the guilt-for-sex, it's something the Lawful Good expect so they go through it.

This quote from the Giant on the subject, may be relevant:



There are only 17 Outer Planes; Roy's alignment would have to match one of them, because you can't not have an alignment. The deva only got "first look" because Lawful Good was the alignment Roy declared himself to be. It was his goal, and the review was to see if he had really met that goal. If he didn't, that would mean he actually had some other alignment, in which case the powers-that-be on that plane would have been happy to have him.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

To be pedantic, Eugene isn't alive anymore; he's an oathspirit. He can't live up to anything.

Remember Violet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html)? She didn't seem to think the adultery was going to be a problem getting in. Eugene states there's nothing to do except 'watch the living or hook up'. Generally speaking with little else possible there might not be a system for re-judging an oathspirit as there's little they could do to influence anything of importance.

I've had a suspicion the judgement itself is for show anyway and souls are pre-sorted. Similar to the guilt-for-sex, it's something the Lawful Good expect so they go through it. Just as Lawful Evil expect a bureaucratic inbox (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0918.html) and everything that goes along with it.

According to Word of Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?337752-Regarding-the-Moral-State-of-Young-Souls&p=17213673#post17213673), it seems that you first go to the plane of the alignment you declare yourself to be, but there is a chance of being moved to an alignment that suits you better.

[Psyren]

Roy's Archon stated that he is unlikely to go to hell, but that doesn't mean he is going to heaven either. He could end up in one of the XN afterlives just as easily.

[DaggerPen]

The reason he still gets into the LG paradise is the same reason Roy wasn't kicked over to the Neutral Good one - he's trying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html).

Eugene is very, very trying.

+1 Internet for you.

[The Pink Ninja]

I'm not 100% sure but I think what Eugene approves of with V is taking a shot at Xykon which is not unreasonable since he threatens the entire future of the world and possibly the future existence of the outer planes and all the immortal souls therein. I don't think he knows about Familiacide or the deal with the "devils".

More to the point, a lot of Eugene's postmortem actions that could be regarded as not LG are rooted in him being frustrated as basically a prisoner in a jail for a crime he didn't commit and Heaven would have to be pretty lame to punish him for that.

We also know that Eugene was an adventurer in life and a pretty high level one so he could also have an awful lot of good deeds on his record that advanced the cause of good and/or law. I mean I'm sure everyone here has played either a pen and paper RPG or a computer one. How much better have you left the world at the end of the game? In Fallout New Vegas I'm a one man extinction event for hostile wasteland critters and psycho murder-rape-torture gangs as well. Local life expectancy for regular people probably went up ten years. Who knows what good deeds Eugene is being measured by.

Being a bit of a **** sometimes and a mediocre father probably aren't enough to keep him out unless Heaven is what I would call unreasonably strict and goodness is supposed to include things like mercy and forgiveness.

Although on the other hand Celestia has a pretty Christian-Bible styling to it and some readings of the Bible say "Almost everyone goes to Hell".

It's also got Buddhist themes (Climbing the Mountain of Spiritual Enlightenment) and again, getting out of the cycle of reincarnation is very hard.

So maybe Celestia is staffed by ***** and Eugene is ****ed.

[Gopher]

Haven't read the whole thread, but here's my prediction about Eugene.

We know that Eugene's actions in life warrant entrance to Celestia. The oath blood oath that keeps him out is very carefully worded that Eugene gets his rest when Xykon is destroyed by himself or one of his descendents.

Xykon will be destroyed, but not by Roy. At least not directly. Therefore, the letter of the oath will forever remain unfulfilled and unfulfillable.

As we know from Roy's experience, the Celestial authorities try to be reasonable. Eugene will have the chance to petition to have the blood oath nullified due to special circumstances. At this hearing, Eugene's post-mortem behavior will be examined, especially his reluctance to do something that might possibly help Roy fulfill the blood oath and his willingness to abandon his family (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html). This will be grounds to deny Eugene's petition to overturn the blood oath, barring him from Celestia for good.

[zinycor]

Haven't read the whole thread, but here's my prediction about Eugene.

We know that Eugene's actions in life warrant entrance to Celestia. The oath blood oath that keeps him out is very carefully worded that Eugene gets his rest when Xykon is destroyed by himself or one of his descendents.

Xykon will be destroyed, but not by Roy. At least not directly. Therefore, the letter of the oath will forever remain unfulfilled and unfulfillable.

As we know from Roy's experience, the Celestial authorities try to be reasonable. Eugene will have the chance to petition to have the blood oath nullified due to special circumstances. At this hearing, Eugene's post-mortem behavior will be examined, especially his reluctance to do something that might possibly help Roy fulfill the blood oath and his willingness to abandon his family (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html). This will be grounds to deny Eugene's petition to overturn the blood oath, barring him from Celestia for good.

I highly doubt anyone but Roy will destroy Xykon, but that is a nice theory

[Gopher]

Well, I wouldn't expect another hero to arise out of nowhere, but I expect Xykon will end up getting eaten by the Snarl one way or another.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, I wouldn't expect another hero to arise out of nowhere, but I expect Xykon will end up getting eaten by the Snarl one way or another.

I think that if we end up in the kind of situation where the Snarl starts killing people Eugene might not be quite so concerned about which afterlife he ends up in and more concerned about whether he gets an afterlife.

[ti'esar]

The Snarl has already started killing people. Even if everyone else in 945 got out alive, at least one of the Empire of Sweat soldiers seems to have been impaled by a tendril.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The Snarl has already started killing people. Even if everyone else in 945 got out alive, at least one of the Empire of Sweat soldiers seems to have been impaled by a tendril.

You're right. I had forgotten about that soldier. I retract my argument then.

[littlebum2002]

The Snarl has already started killing people. Even if everyone else in 945 got out alive, at least one of the Empire of Sweat soldiers seems to have been impaled by a tendril.

In this world, getting impaled =/= dying, not necessarially

[Rogar Demonblud]

It does when the Snarl is involved. That thing one-shots gods.

[Keltest]

It does when the Snarl is involved. That thing one-shots gods.

More importantly, it does when its a nameless character.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

More importantly, it does when its a nameless character.

And especially when that nameless character is some random soldier. I would rate SPG's chances of survival as more than zero.

[Red XIV]

I've always figured that it wouldn't even occur to the devas that they might need to re-examine the case of somebody who was already approved for admission, on the basis of actions they took while already dead.

As for Eugene destroying the file on V instead of reading it and passing the info on to Roy, that was stupid but it's not as if Eugene actually agreed to the deva's request or was under any obligation to do as she said. And the stupidity of one's actions has no bearing on character alignment.

[Jay R]

I've always figured that it wouldn't even occur to the devas that they might need to re-examine the case of somebody who was already approved for admission, on the basis of actions they took while already dead.

Of so, it is a flaw in the system, which is therefore no longer Lawful Good.


As for Eugene destroying the file on V instead of reading it and passing the info on to Roy, that was stupid but it's not as if Eugene actually agreed to the deva's request or was under any obligation to do as she said. And the stupidity of one's actions has no bearing on character alignment.

Either you are responsible for your own decisions and actions or you are not. If you are not, then the entire alignment system is meaningless.

[Keltest]

Of so, it is a flaw in the system, which is therefore no longer Lawful Good.

Flaws in the system would not affect its alignment. If its not perfect... oh well? Im fairly confident the number of people held like Eugene is AND are given the opportunity to make decisions that would influence their admission is fairly low.


Either you are responsible for your own decisions and actions or you are not. If you are not, then the entire alignment system is meaningless.

You are responsible for your actions, but actions made in ignorance of certain facts affect your alignment less. If you pull a level to see what it does, it kills someone, and youre horrified by that, it doesn't make you evil, it just makes you dumb.

[Jay R]

Flaws in the system would not affect its alignment. If its not perfect... oh well?

Then it is not pure Good.


You are responsible for your actions, but actions made in ignorance of certain facts affect your alignment less. If you pull a level to see what it does, it kills someone, and youre horrified by that, it doesn't make you evil, it just makes you dumb.

If you pull a lever that powerful without knowing what it might do, then you are not Lawful.

[Keltest]

Then it is not pure Good. why not? Alignment is disconnected from intelligence




If you pull a lever that powerful without knowing what it might do, then you are not Lawful.

See above.

[Jay R]

why not? Alignment is disconnected from intelligence

A Good person can be low intelligence. But the ultimate arbiters of Good cannot.



If you pull a lever that powerful without knowing what it might do, then you are not Lawful.
See above.

I'll stick with it. If you will pull the lever without knowing what it will do, that is a random, non-Lawful act.

[Keltest]

A Good person can be low intelligence. But the ultimate arbiters of Good cannot. That's a nonanswer. What makes it so that good is tied into intelligence, and more importantly able to plan for every contingency?




I'll stick with it. If you will pull the lever without knowing what it will do, that is a random, non-Lawful act.

Ill agree you have a point here.

[Jay R]

That's a nonanswer. What makes it so that good is tied into intelligence, and more importantly able to plan for every contingency?

Letting a non-Good person into LG heaven because the system failed to judge their most recent actions is a non-just act, which is not Good.

[Keltest]

Letting a non-Good person into LG heaven because the system failed to judge their most recent actions is a non-just act, which is not Good.

I think youre missing my point here. How is it the fault of the deva's if they are not omniscient? If they cant foresee every single contingency in the history of existence that has been or will be.

[Jay R]

I think youre missing my point here. How is it the fault of the deva's if they are not omniscient? If they cant foresee every single contingency in the history of existence that has been or will be.

I'm not missing your point. I'm saying it doesn't apply here.

That is certainly how you treat a courtroom, or a sports referee, or any other construct of fallible people. But if the measurement of Goodness is itself unjust, then it isn't measuring Goodness, just as a ruler which changes in size isn't measuring length.

[veti]

Letting a non-Good person into LG heaven because the system failed to judge their most recent actions is a non-just act, which is not Good.

It's not perfect, but it might still be good enough.

This is just part of the huge incoherent mess that is D&D cosmology (and OOTS has made no attempt to fill the gaps, presumably because it's not something that particularly interests Rich). The idea of heaven as a "reward" is predicated on monotheistic assumptions, where there are only two outcomes - admitted, or not-admitted. With 17 outer planes, each with its own governing authorities, that doesn't make sense any more.

(Consider: if the Deva tossed a soul over to Neutral Good, the soul would have to go through the NG entry procedures, whatever they are. What if they decide he's too lawful for them? The NG authorities don't answer to the LG ones, so there's no guarantee they'll agree with the Deva's call. What's really needed is something more like the Hogwarts Sorting Hat, which is independent of all the houses and, as far as we know, can't be overruled by anyone.)

The conclusion I've come to, for now, is that the job of the guardians (presumably of each plane, although the fact that we've only seen one of them makes it a bit speculative) is to let in the people who "belong" there, i.e. who will be more at home there than they would on any of the others, and therefore (most likely, although so long as the spirits retain free-will anything is possible) won't try to upset the normal order of the place. (What happens if you change alignment after being admitted to Celestia?)

[hamishspence]

(What happens if you change alignment after being admitted to Celestia?)

Maybe you are thrown out - as happens to angels, archons etc that become corrupt?

According to BoVD, Baalzebul was an archon once, before becoming corrupt and ending up in the Nine Hells. And FC2 suggests that others, like Asmodeus, Dispater, etc are former celestials as well.

[Darth Paul]

I'm not 100% sure but I think what Eugene approves of with V is taking a shot at Xykon which is not unreasonable since he threatens the entire future of the world and possibly the future existence of the outer planes and all the immortal souls therein. I don't think he knows about Familiacide or the deal with the "devils".

More to the point, a lot of Eugene's postmortem actions that could be regarded as not LG are rooted in him being frustrated as basically a prisoner in a jail for a crime he didn't commit and Heaven would have to be pretty lame to punish him for that...

Well, you may be right, but I think you're mistaken on 2 counts.

1) I believe that Eugene approves of V's actions because "the ends justify the means", which is an inherently non-Lawful Good attitude, and "if Roy had taken that approach a long time ago, then Xykon would be dead by now and I'd be out of here." This is one reason why I think that, even if/when Roy or Julia managed to kill Xykon, Eugene still would be re-evaluated and found inelegible for the LG heaven. He's not even trying to be Lawful and Good anymore. "Using Evil to fight Evil" doesn't count as Lawful Good, even if it has a Good end result- because part of Evil still ends up winning and being strengthened. (The IFCC in this case.)

An argument can be made that Eugene never read the file, thus did not know that V was dealing with devils (literally); but he showed an active disinterest, which is just as bad.

2) Eugene is not in jail for a crime he didn't commit. He took an oath not to rest in this life or the next until he killed Xykon, period; then he quit. He didn't consider the consequences of quitting his oath-quest, and now that it's too late, he's pissed off. He didn't read the fine print, and now he's paying the bill. Is it disproportionate punishment? Sure. Are possibly mythological stories of possibly mythological gods (no names mentioned *coughYahwehcough*) full of similar stories of what some of us might consider disproportionate, eternal punishments for "sins" that some humans don't consider sins? Sure. Then again, what Eugene is doing (eternity with nothing to do but hook up with other spirits in limbo?) doesn't seem all that bad.

Also, you used a video game analogy. You are right, Eugene on that level probably completed a lot of side quests, visited many villages, raided some dungeons; but he failed to complete the story. He took the disc out of the machine and switched to playing "The Sims" with his new wife. He never played the game out to the point where he got the trophy achievement "Killing Xykon"; so he doesn't get to move on, considering that he contracted to complete the game, or die trying, as a condition of moving on to his Eternal Rest.

[Oko and Qailee]

In this world, getting impaled =/= dying, not necessarially

Like Tarquin impaling Roy and Elan?


On Topic, guy's keep in mind we know so little about Eugene's life. We know he was a bit neglectful of Roy, but that tells us so little of his adventuring among other things. Certainly, his recent actions might effect his end placement, but keep in mind he's had 70+2d20 years of actions he's been taking. As far as you know, he stopped some BBEG on par with Xykon in his lifetime for no personal gain at all.

[dps]

Meta answer:

I used to think that once you were on the cloud, actually getting into Celestia was a foregone conclusion, and the interview was a formality designed more to prepare you than assess your worthiness.

But then the Giant took the time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17213673&postcount=25) to post explicitly to shoot that theory down. That's not something he often does. When you look at the number of contradictory ideas swanning about here on any given day, it's not hard to deduce that most of them must be wrong, but there's only a few that he goes out of his way to correct. They're usually the more popular ones, but as far as I know I was the only person pushing this one.

So why did he bother to correct me?

My new theory: because of what it implies about Eugene. He's not going to get into Celestia.

The problem is, the Giant's post on this issue corrects your mistake in thinking that the interview was just a formality. That doesn't have anything to do with Eugene's situation--he's already had his interview, and was judged to be LG. The only reason he's still on the cloud is because of the oath. There's nothing that even suggests that he'll have to go through another interview. In fact, the implication seems to be that he's go straight in if/when the oath is fulfilled.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The same thing applies to Roy. He's already pegged for Mount Celestia, and he's got maybe another 80 years of life left. What happens if he turns Chaotic Neutral in his 50s?

[UristMcRandom]

[...] My new theory: because of what it implies about Eugene. He's not going to get into Celestia.

I think we are technically past the point where that would be a realistic possibility. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html")

[JavaScribe]

I think we are technically past the point where that would be a realistic possibility. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html")
Well, what with Celestia being lawful and all, maybe they can use some technicality on his Oath. I presume this normally wouldn't be a problem, but maybe if someone with no blood ties to Eugene kills Xykon, it can be used against him.

[hamishspence]

I think we are technically past the point where that would be a realistic possibility. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html")

That statement was in response to "he can go to Hell, for all I care."

So, it's not realistic for Eugene to get into the Nine Hells of Baator.

Might be realistic for him to get a second review though - given the number of acts he's committed while deceased.

[factotum]

Well, yes; I wouldn't say that anything he's done post-mortem has been actively Evil. Chaotic, possibly, depending on definitions.

[Ben Kenobi]

Two arguments.

1 - the blood oath is a sign that Eugene is lawful. The whole thing with the Deva is simply holding Eugene up to the promises that he made in life.

Eugene was willing to sacrifice his eternal reward in Celestia in order to take down Zykon. Why? Because he realized that the fate of the world held in the balance. Eugene also believed that his life and not only that - his afterlife was something he was willing to sacrifice in order to defeat Zykon.

Lawful is concerned about the means to an end - that using evil means for good purposes would strike as chaotic - but, again... it's an Oath. A chaotic person would not sign a binding oath, as it would not have any meaning to them. Nor would they risk their life in order to fulfill their oath.

Eugene did all that. Yes, Eugene eventually gave up, decided to start a family and retire. That is not something that will keep him out of celestia. Nor will it even enter the picture to decide that he should not enter. When the call was there - Eugene was there and he did fight the good fight.

Had he died fulfilling his oath? and the deva actually mentioned that... he would have gotten in because there is nothing more he could have done with his time on earth. He is not required to be successful - only to try and to make his effort whatever it may be.

Secondly, what has Eugene done? He dodged a summons, tied up a Deva, to offer advice to Roy, and to the Sapphire Guild. He impersonated a being of light (again, chaotic means to fulfill a good end). He did not do it to make the Sapphire Guild worse, and I'd be hard pressed to say that his actions hindered things. He did a lot of good by intervening where he did.

Again, when Roy challenged him, Eugene was willing to leave his family. People say he was selfish, but again - his own son made that request. Would it be more selfish to insist that your family spend time with you?

Thirdly, intercepting the summons meant to inform Roy? Chaotic means to fulfill a good end. Eugene was willing to bend the rules to ensure that Varsuvius would get the chance to inform Roy, and to prevent Roy from abandoning Varsuvius. Yes - he approved of what she did, because Eugene knows what is at stake. What good does it do to save the lives of the dragons if the world itself is unmade? He was not the one who made that decision. Varsuvius was. Now - permitting Roy to be informed has negative consequences for the Party as a whole. Believing, "yes, you did something that was wrong in pursuit of good ends and you deserve to be punished for it." is one thing.

Eugene knows that the Elf is going to be necessary in order to take down Zykon. If he can do something to prevent Roy from making a mistake that would doom the party and their ultimate quest? Eugene is going to do that.

It strikes me that Eugene is mostly neutral good - he seems willing to do whatever it takes in pursuit of his primary goal, regardless as to what the rules actually say he should do. It seems to me that the lawfulness would not be compromised by what he's done in the afterlife, because of the Blood Oath. So it's sort of ironic to me that the man that was willing to sacrifice lawfulness for good would be asked to keep his promises.

I don't see Eugene as primarily motivated by selfishness either. Yes, he did give Roy the quest - but look at it from his point of view. Eugene values effectiveness. In the end, questing against Zykon would have fulfilled his oath, but.. it wouldn't have succeeded. I think Eugene knew this damn well. So - passing the oath onto his son makes sense because then he might actually defeat Zykon. Eugene is not willing to sacrifice effectiveness in order to have a better life. I get the sense that Eugene doesn't like himself very much.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Eugene was willing to sacrifice his eternal reward in Celestia in order to take down Zykon. Why? Because he realized that the fate of the world held in the balance. Eugene also believed that his life and not only that - his afterlife was something he was willing to sacrifice in order to defeat Zykon.

Nothing of the sort. He got the oath because he was personally peeved at some old guy who murdered his mentor and he was too drunk to read the card and think about it. His interview with the deva showed he didn't think the oath actually mattered. I'm really having trouble seeing how Eugene ever qualified as Lawful, since we generally see him doing Neutral or Chaotic things (arguably, he also is more Neutral than Good).

Also: :xykon: "It's XYKON, meatbag!"

[hamishspence]

He got the oath because he was personally peeved at some old guy who murdered his mentor and he was too drunk to read the card and think about it. His interview with the deva showed he didn't think the oath actually mattered.

Yup - he might have focused on hunting Xykon for a while - but then he "gave it up to pursue other interests"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html

[Peelee]

A bit late to the party, but...
The Snarl has already started killing people. Even if everyone else in 945 got out alive, at least one of the Empire of Sweat soldiers seems to have been impaled by a tendril.


It does when the Snarl is involved. That thing one-shots gods.


More importantly, it does when its a nameless character.


And especially when that nameless character is some random soldier. I would rate SPG's chances of survival as more than zero.
I'll believe it when I see the Xs in his eyes. Or its confirmed the Snarl is up and killing people. I still don't believe we know exactly what's going on with that thing.