Core Theruge build questions

[Stewbert]

I'm playing 3.5 core only and this our first "serious" campaign. Our party is relativley low power (paladin g.axe, ranger g.sword, sorcerer and a monk) so i've decided to play a Mystic Theruge because i love the class idea and it seems an appropriate power level to do it in. I'm playing a human with 30 point buy, i rolled the following;

Str:10
Dex:10
Con:13
Int:17
Wis:16
Chr:8

My questions are regarding feats and domains. I looked into and considered playing a summoner theruge with augment summoning however I figured being 3 caster levels behind is really going to hurt my summons in both duration and level of the monster called, so is it worth missing out on this build?

Secondly the healing domain is generally frowned upon as a cleric bringing nothing new. However as a theruge I already have tons of control spells from wizard and the sorcerer in the party, could it be viable to play the theruge wizard side as debuff/control and the cleric side as healer/status removal. If so does that make the healing domain a smart pick up here? It seems attractive given the lack of healing in the party and the extra cures it would bring but I wonder if it would still be more worth my while to pick up travel domain instead.

Thanks for any suggestions!

[Palanan]

At what level will you be starting your Theurge?

[Flickerdart]

You have three melee characters in your party, and two of them have pets. Summoning is an awful idea unless you fight exclusively armies, on flat featureless plains.

Healing domain is terrible and never worth your time. Buy a wand.

Mystic Theurge in general is bad precisely because of what you point out - being 3 caster levels behind will make all of your spells weak. The best use for having so many weak spells is probably picking up all those weird situational spells wizards and clerics have on their lists.

[Divide by Zero]

Healing is never worth it in combat unless the spell is called Heal. Out of combat, the domain is still near useless because it doesn't have Lesser Vigor (and because wands exist).

[Extra Anchovies]

You have three melee characters in your party, and two of them have pets. Summoning is an awful idea unless you fight exclusively armies, on flat featureless plains.

Healing domain is terrible and never worth your time. Buy a wand.

Mystic Theurge in general is bad precisely because of what you point out - being 3 caster levels behind will make all of your spells weak. The best use for having so many weak spells is probably picking up all those weird situational spells wizards and clerics have on their lists.

All of these are good points, especially the last one. Have you considered just playing a Cleric and using domains to pick up a few wizard spells? If you take the Magic domain you can UMD like a wizard of your level, and you're three caster levels ahead of a mystic theurge. Casting theurges work best with early-entry tricks, and those don't exist in core.

[ranagrande]

There are some cases when the Healing domain is a good choice, but this is not one of them. You're right however that this as good a time as any to play a Mystic Theurge.

You'll like want to focus on buffs, utility, and battlefield control. For domains, I'd take two of the following: Air, Earth, Luck, Plant, Protection, Strength, Travel, or Water.

[Flickerdart]

Casting theurges work best with early-entry tricks, and those don't exist in core.
There are weird niche builds you can pull off in core using Mystic Theurge, like divine Arcane Tricksters - a Cleric 5/Assassin 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Trickster 10 gets the same spellcasting backbone that a Wizard 5/Rogue 3/Arcane Trickster 10/Wizard 2 would (as long as you can pester your DM into letting Assassin have cantrips for Mage Hand, or have out-of-core access to Magical Training/Extra Spell).

[Troacctid]

Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10 still out-tiers most of the rest of the party. I'm sure you'll be fine. It'll be rough in the beginning, but if you make it past 10th level, nobody scales into the lategame like a Theurge.

Play to your strengths. Stick to a support role. With three lost caster levels, you won't be the group's heavy hitter, but you don't need to be. Leave that to your teammates and use your abundance of spell slots for buffing, debuffing, control, and utility. (And healing too, yes, although in-combat healing is best reserved for emergencies only and the Healing domain sucks.) You can be the guy who prepares those situational spells the Sorcerer didn't have space to take. Also, item creation--with all the spells you have access to, if you grab Craft Wondrous Item, you can craft whatever anyone needs, and your party will love you for it.

[Stewbert]

Thanks for all the responses didn't expect that many. Starting at level one and I dont mind being the weaker member early on and supporting I quite enjoy the background role at the moment.

Are any of the spell focus feats worth it? I originally planned to Spell Focus conjuration into aug. summoning, but I think that feat will be better spent on CWI. I have gone specialist conjurer and banned evo/ench.

I'm looking at 9 feat slots up to level 20 and so far I've picked Quicken spell, Extend Spell, Improved Initiative, Spell penetration, greater spell penetration, craft wand, CWI which leaves two more feats, I have no idea what to pick maybe the reflex save feat?

As for domains I guess i'll pass on healing domain, feels super useful early but I guess that drops off later on!

Cheers!

[Troacctid]

Travel and Luck domains have the best granted powers in core and it isn't particularly close. I'd go with those two.

[Andezzar]

Travel and Luck domains have the best granted powers in core and it isn't particularly close. I'd go with those two.Travel is pretty good, but Luck is near useless IMHO because you have to decide whether you reroll before the DM declares the result of the roll and you have to take the result of the reroll even if it is worse than the initial roll.

[Troacctid]

Travel is pretty good, but Luck is near useless IMHO because you have to decide whether you reroll before the DM declares the result of the roll and you have to take the result of the reroll even if it is worse than the initial roll.

It protects you from rolling a natural 1, especially on crucial saving throws. Since you can only use it once a day you should be reserving it for emergencies anyway.

Better domain-granted abilities exist outside core (cough Pride cough), but on a core-only Theurge, it's not even close to debatable. Luck and Travel are by far and away the top two. What else would you take? +1 caster level on divination spells that don't care about caster level? One of the extra turning domains with an effective turning level of 3? Weapon Focus?

[Extra Anchovies]

Travel is pretty good, but Luck is near useless IMHO because you have to decide whether you reroll before the DM declares the result of the roll and you have to take the result of the reroll even if it is worse than the initial roll.

It's still good for negating natural 1s on saving throws, and being able to do that is always a good thing (which is why the Pride domain has one of the best granted powers; it lets you reroll natural 1s on saving throws without a uses/day cap).

[macdaddy]

As everyone has said, stick with buff/debuff/control spells.

However, you will have some trouble with Debuff spells because of the lower save DC (i.e. glitterdust is killer when you get it as a 3rd level wizard, BUT by 7-9th level, most stuff will make their saves against it. Being 3 levels behind makes some of your "better" spells less useful).

I would suggest being a focused specialist Conjurer or Transmuter. Conjuration spells like Benign Transposition and Dimension Step are AWESOME regardless of your caster level. Transmutation spells like Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, and Polymorph are similarly brilliant.

In a support role, you ca still shine.

BTW, you should probably take practiced spellcaster(Wizard) to help with durations/ranges/etc.

[Troacctid]

I would suggest being a focused specialist Conjurer or Transmuter. Conjuration spells like Benign Transposition and Dimension Step are AWESOME regardless of your caster level.

[...]

BTW, you should probably take practiced spellcaster(Wizard) to help with durations/ranges/etc.

None of those are core.