Planar Binding Questions

[RoboEmperor]

1. Can someone else make the charisma check for you? i.e. high charisma paladin/sorcerer or a planar bound succubus.
2. What's stopping you from making a demon serve you for 1year, 10 year, til you die, after you die in the afterlife, for eternity, etc.?
3. What's stopping you from amassing a massive demon army?
4. What's stopping the planar bound demon from killing you after you finish the negotiations? He could just lie to you so you'd him out.
5. What's stopping the planar bound demon from killing you indirectly? Like he's cleaning the floor but purposefully knocks a massive shelf down onto his master or accidentally dropping poison into the water supply, when fetching a sandwich for you the demon intentionally takes a detour to another plane through some poisonous environment so the sandwich becomes tainted and then gives it to you?

[Erik Vale]

1. Can someone else make the charisma check for you? i.e. high charisma paladin/sorcerer or a planar bound succubus.
2. What's stopping you from making a demon serve you for 1year, 10 year, til you die, after you die in the afterlife, for eternity, etc.?
3. What's stopping you from amassing a massive demon army?
4. What's stopping the planar bound demon from killing you after you finish the negotiations? He could just lie to you so you'd him out.
5. What's stopping the planar bound demon from killing you indirectly? Like he's cleaning the floor but purposefully knocks a massive shelf down onto his master or accidentally dropping poison into the water supply, when fetching a sandwich for you the demon intentionally takes a detour to another plane through some poisonous environment so the sandwich becomes tainted and then gives it to you?

In order.
I don't think so.
If you give something that's open ended, it lasts CL days I think, so nothing, nothing, raw, raw, raw.
Nothing.
The Spell should the caster give the appropriate commands.
... The players reaction to the DM being an *******, and see above.

[Phelix-Mu]

If you don't want demons betraying your character, best off avoiding them entirely. Maybe planar bind something else?

[afroakuma]

1. Can someone else make the charisma check for you?

No. "You make," the rules say, which means no substitutions.


2. What's stopping you from making a demon serve you for 1year, 10 year, til you die, after you die in the afterlife, for eternity, etc.?

In addition to such terms being potentially "unreasonable" per the parameters of the spell, there's this: "If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free."

So, that quite specifically is stopping you from asking for a year's service, since the creature cannot actively complete the task but instead would basically have to wait it out.


3. What's stopping you from amassing a massive demon army?

Ostensibly nothing. Practically speaking, you'll be noticed in the process of doing so, and you'll eventually roll a 1. At which point you'll get to have the fun experience of discovering just how many of your bonded demons have instructions they're capable of subverting.


4. What's stopping the planar bound demon from killing you after you finish the negotiations? He could just lie to you so you'd him out.

If you set the terms of the negotiation appropriately, then it shouldn't be able to attack you while bound to perform a specific task. Since the condition for terminating the binding is that it notifies you, and since a terminated binding releases the creature, a successfully bound creature is either 1) unable to attack you or 2) back home. There's no interstitial period there. Unless something has gone wrong at any point during the process, in which case you get more fun.


5. What's stopping the planar bound demon from killing you indirectly?

If it's not a tremendously onerous task, sheer impatience might drive them to complete it rather than killing you and waiting out the clock on the dismissal effect. Apart from that... negotiate well.

[RoboEmperor]

In addition to such terms being potentially "unreasonable" per the parameters of the spell, there's this: "If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free."

So, that quite specifically is stopping you from asking for a year's service, since the creature cannot actively complete the task but instead would basically have to wait it out.

I was under the impression that if a task takes longer than my CL per day, they still have to complete it, so if the task is "guard this box", that's open ended so they can leave after my CL per day, but if it's like "guard this box for a year" or "kill the king.I'll help you accomplish this" instead of "help me kill the king" it will no longer be open-ended.


Ostensibly nothing. Practically speaking, you'll be noticed in the process of doing so, and you'll eventually roll a 1. At which point you'll get to have the fun experience of discovering just how many of your bonded demons have instructions they're capable of subverting.

I would never planar bind a demon I cannot kill precisely because a roll of 1 would be the end of my adventuring days. I'll only planar bind demons I can kill solo or with the assistance of my previously successfully bound demons.


If you don't want demons betraying your character, best off avoiding them entirely. Maybe planar bind something else?

Where's the fun in that D:
Besides, having a demonic escort feels so much more satisfying than having an undead escort or some crappy militia.

[Werephilosopher]

In addition to such terms being potentially "unreasonable" per the parameters of the spell, there's this: "If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free."

So, that quite specifically is stopping you from asking for a year's service, since the creature cannot actively complete the task but instead would basically have to wait it out.


I don't see why asking for a year's service isn't feasible. It isn't open-ended: the service is complete at the end of one year. It also isn't something that the creature "cannot complete though its own actions": waiting for a year is an action, and if the creature waits for a year, the task is completed.

[Phelix-Mu]

I was merely pointing out that, fluff-wise, there are very few beings in the universe more likely than demons to take an agreement and, even to their detriment, disregard it entirely. Because that's how they roll; unpredictable, grasping, and vicious. The only less-intelligent pick on who would be good to rely on would be slaad, but I really hope no one was thinking that would be a good idea.

Remember, the spell gives a pretty open-ended mechanic for the negotiation. It's wiggle room for a DM to, rather realistically, have the bound creature's own interests and behaviors enter the picture. They aren't your perfect slave, they aren't your tool; I don't even believe it's a compulsion effect. It's an npc. All due caution should be observed, even to the extent of maybe deciding the risk isn't worth it.

Given the huge list of other, incredibly impressive beings that there are in the multiverse, most of whom are more trustworthy than demons, I'd personally be tempted to just go shopping elsewhere, and give [outsider] a hat of disguise to look like a demon or something.

[afroakuma]

I don't see why asking for a year's service isn't feasible. It isn't open-ended: the service is complete at the end of one year. It also isn't something that the creature "cannot complete though its own actions"

It cannot, by way of its own actions, complete the contract. The contract is completed regardless of the creature's actions.

If I ask you to recover the Medallion of Gingerbread from the Mountains of Ever-Shrieking Murderswarms (this is a messed-up fantasy world we've got here), the length of your service is directly correlated to your actions. The sooner you set out to do the thing, locate the medallion, bring it back to me, the sooner it is done. Your performance of the task is the deciding factor in the length of the contract, and if you exert yourself you can be done in less time.

If I ask you to stand guard for a year, nothing you do can expedite the contract's conclusion. No degree of good performance will bring the contract to a speedier conclusion. Your actions are not relevant to securing your release from bondage.

Given that the duration of a standard task is limited to CL * days, it's a valid interpretation to declare that a year's service constitutes an unreasonable request. It's certainly open-ended enough in terms of the nature of said service to fail.

[ace rooster]

1. Can someone else make the charisma check for you? i.e. high charisma paladin/sorcerer or a planar bound succubus.

As pointed out, no.


2. What's stopping you from making a demon serve you for 1year, 10 year, til you die, after you die in the afterlife, for eternity, etc.?

Nothing, provided you can find a task that the demon can complete itself (which means no explicit duration). Stay in this room working a tower of babel for example. It might just ignore anyone who entered the room though.


3. What's stopping you from amassing a massive demon army?

Money, the same thing keeping you from amassing a normal army.


4. What's stopping the planar bound demon from killing you after you finish the negotiations? He could just lie to you so you'd him out.

Magic! In my games I have the outsider relying on the spell to return them safely, so it is very bad for them to violate the conditions of the spell. Demons are selfish, and you really have to piss them off before they will do something that will risk their eternal existence. They reform slowly if they die, but planar binding can screw with that process.


5. What's stopping the planar bound demon from killing you indirectly? Like he's cleaning the floor but purposefully knocks a massive shelf down onto his master or accidentally dropping poison into the water supply, when fetching a sandwich for you the demon intentionally takes a detour to another plane through some poisonous environment so the sandwich becomes tainted and then gives it to you?
Nothing, have fun. :smallbiggrin:

[RoboEmperor]

Alright, thanks everyone. Depending on my DM, I'll probably won't try to go past the CL per day time limit and treat the spell like a long summon spell. I'll probably walk around with 2-4 demons.



Money, the same thing keeping you from amassing a normal army.

What money? Magic circle against alignment, planar binding, and dimensional anchor cost nothing.