E6 Archer rogue help

[Melkior]

Hello, I'm the DM for an E6 game set in standard dnd tech level England inspired by the Tv show Merlin. Uther is King and Arthur and Merlin are in the setting. The PCs are an evil party who for one reason or another are opposed to Uther's reign. Magic is banned (in game) except for that of clerics of the Christian God, who are rare (other clerics follow Roman, Norse, or Celtic gods, collectively known as "The Old Religion")

In the party we've got the following, all level 2 now.
a Crusader: Its the player's first game of dnd, but he's made an admirable effort to learn the rules, and has made a pretty effective tank.
a Warblade: Also his first game aside from simulations he apparantly ran, but he's been lurking here longer than me somehow. He's the main damage dealer on the party at this point.
an Incarnate: Veteran player, well versed in optimization. Participates in GiTP optomization contests. I don't know much about incarnum and he missed last session so I'm not sure what to make of this character yet, but it seems pretty good.
a Sorceress: has played one game of 3.5 and one game of 4e before, the 3.5 also DMed by me. She's not very good at optomization but with a class like sorceress she doesn't need that much help. I pointed her in the direction of arcane thesis(scorching ray) + empower spell for 18d6 damage at level 6 single target, and grease has done well for her so far.
a Druid: Has a bit more experience, but also not a great optomizer. As a druid shouldn't have a lot of trouble though, especially as Druid is the Incarnates favorite class and he's been helping him with feat and spell selection.

and finally the rogue, the reason for this thread: She's never played a game of 3.5 before, but she seems to have a good grasp of the basic rules and rolls now. The problem is she made an archer rogue, and hasn't been very effective in combat. She's got stats of, in order, 10 16 14 12 10 12 (28 point buy), using a shortbow and her feats are Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Improved Initiative. When she wins initiative she gets to try sneak attacks but the penalty from rapid shot seems to give her pretty bad accuracy, and after that she doesn't have a way to get sneak attacks except targeting people caught in grease

My question is what can I or she do to allow her to perform better in combat? I'd allow basically a complete retcon of her mechanics, but I think she wants to stay a rogue and she definitely wants to be an archer. She also likes horses and bought a light horse with her starting gold. One idea I had was to give her the Dark Creature template from Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave (my last campaign actually used this book!) as the result of some in story upcoming dungeon.

I also would consider giving her something for free. Her backstory was quite well written, and I gave some of the other party small things for similar reasons. The Crusader got free bastard sword proficiency, a Cleric who is going to join the campaign next session got a loyal but inept and cowardly manservant, and for the Incarnate I've just interpreted some rules favorably to him.

[Gwendol]

Well, it's a level 2 rogue after all, so not sure what you were expecting.

Assuming a masterwork weapon (?) you have 1+3+1+1-2=+4 when using rapid shot, dealing 2d6+1 damage. When winning initiative, enemies are flatfooted and so typically have lower AC if they are denied DEX.
My recommendation is that the rogue uses her brains more: only use rapid shot against lightly armored enemies in the surprise round, debuff armored enemies using tanglefoot bags, use other means of supporting the team if she can't contribute in combat (alchemists fire, thunderstones, marbles, etc)
Also, there are different types of arrows that can be used to spice things up.

[Extra Anchovies]

1. You didn't mention race. If they're human, they can pick up another feat (maybe Weapon Focus to make up for the slightly lower BAB?). ETA: Didn't notice that you stated a level. The following is advice for later in the build.
2. Precise Shot
3. Rogue 5/Incarnate 1, for Sighting Gloves and (if chaotic) Incarnate Avatar?

[Baroknik]

You could always see about dipping Monk 1 and tasking Decisive Strike and the (Eberron) feat that let's you treat a long sword as a monk special weapon. Get an Aptitude Longbow and deal double damage on your attack!
Granted with this you won't be doubling sneak attack, but you could also go to Monk 2 and Stunning Fist with a bow using this set-up.

[Melkior]

1. You didn't mention race. If they're human, they can pick up another feat (maybe Weapon Focus to make up for the slightly lower BAB?). ETA: Didn't notice that you stated a level. The following is advice for later in the build.
2. Precise Shot
3. Rogue 5/Incarnate 1, for Sighting Gloves and (if chaotic) Incarnate Avatar?

They are human, but she's already full up on feats. Incarnate is an idea I wouldnt have thought of because I'm not very familiar with MoI, but that could certainly help with the accuracy problem. Downside is she loses the extra sneak attack die she could get by going rogue 5/assassin 1. Not sure if its worth it for a plus 2, or plus 3 with an essentia boosting feat.



My recommendation is that the rogue uses her brains more: only use rapid shot against lightly armored enemies in the surprise round, debuff armored enemies using tanglefoot bags, use other means of supporting the team if she can't contribute in combat (alchemists fire, thunderstones, marbles, etc)
Also, there are different types of arrows that can be used to spice things up.

Good ideas, I'll pass them on.

[Pilo]

Incarnate is a good idea, but if there is only one soulmeld and as it is an E6 game, you'll be as good if you take the shape soulmeld and extra essentia feats after level 6.

[Gwendol]

One level of assassin isn't a bad choice.

[ranagrande]

You could also suggest Scout instead of Rogue, and Scout 1/Ranger 1 since she's level 2. Skirmish is more reliable than Sneak Attack, and Swift Hunter is one of the best builds in E6.

[Techwarrior]

Archer Rogue doesn't really start to come online for a good while, and is difficult to pull of in E6 at all.

If you're the DM, the easiest way to help her is to drop nice loot her way. This is incredibly difficult to do correctly though, and is therefore the suggestion I would try last.

Since you've already suggested that you're willing to retcon her character, I'd suggest doing that. Have her rearrange her stats more favorably (14 16 10 as opposed to 10 16 14 is much better as an archer if you can keep yourself out of the way) and rearrange her feats. Rogues generally shouldn't use Rapid Shot until they have a decent attack roll. Weapon Focus, Point Blank Shot, and Precise Shot, while less flashy, is definitely a better start. I'd definitely throw her the bone of the Dark template, and if you can get away with it, a Masterwork bow.

The trick as DM isn't what can you do. The real trick is what you can get away with doing.

[Averis Vol]

Dipping one level of fighter (targeteer) gets her dex to damage with ranged weapons, plus two free exo ranged weapon proficiencies. Since she has to be within 30 ft anyways for sneak attack, she can also pick up dead eye for more dex to damage. IF you really want to help her out, snipers goggles from pathfinder are a pretty good choice as well.

[prufock]

The problem is she made an archer rogue, and hasn't been very effective in combat. She's got stats of, in order, 10 16 14 12 10 12 (28 point buy), using a shortbow and her feats are Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Improved Initiative. When she wins initiative she gets to try sneak attacks but the penalty from rapid shot seems to give her pretty bad accuracy
Two things:
1) Make sure when she acts first in combat that you are having her attack against the targets flat-footed AC. It should be obvious, but I've seen this rule forgotten plenty of times.
2) DON'T RAPID SHOT in the first round! Rapid Shot is not a very effective choice for a low-level 3/4 BAB character. You need that 10% extra chance of hitting.


and after that she doesn't have a way to get sneak attacks except targeting people caught in grease
Here's Person_Man's list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10107943&postcount=13).

She definitely wants to be a sniper, so she should be hiding as much as possible, then picking off the enemy. Ranged is a little harder to get sneak attacks on than melee, so that's an issue too.

There is an alchemical item that coats an area like grease, called Oleum. There are also marbles.


One idea I had was to give her the Dark Creature template from Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave (my last campaign actually used this book!) as the result of some in story upcoming dungeon.
Hide in Plain Sight would definitely help.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I second the Scout/Ranger build with Swift Hunter, it will just work better at low levels than a rogue.

Things you can do to help...
1. Free Longbow proficiency. You gave the Crusader bastard sword, and the range and damage boost might help a little.
2. Sneak Attack is only foiled by total (50%) concealment, nothing less. If it hasn't screwed the rogue yet, I'm sure it will soon.
3. If she takes Precise Shot, she isn't hampered when things move to melee. You also need Precise Shot for Deadeye Shot, which lets you ready to shoot someone hit in melee and count them as flatfooted. Sadly, it requires BAB +4, though the pre-reqs are already pretty steep, feel free to drop that requirement.
3a. Another option (though also requiring a lossening of requirements, in this case the Dex 19 is just way too high...) is Quicker Than The Eye from 3.0's Song and Silence. Bluff vs. Spot check as a Move, if you win, next attack is a sneak attack.


Whether she goes swift hunter or sticks rogue (in which case, on top of the above 3 things to do), you might want to toss some goggles of foefinding in the loot when they're level 3ish, they *really* help a ranged character to ignore soft cover of allies in the way.

I don't necessarily think she should get rid of Rapid Shot, statistically, two rolls at -2 is almost always better than 1 roll at +0. The only thing is archery is massively feat-heavy and she probably needs to drop it for other feats first that have a bigger impact at low level. You could also just get rid of Point Blank Shot as a feat tax... I actually think it's a decent feat for a rogue since any shot she'll want to make is getting +1 attack and damage, but...the ones that come after it are more urgently needed.

[Extra Anchovies]

They are human, but she's already full up on feats. Incarnate is an idea I wouldnt have thought of because I'm not very familiar with MoI, but that could certainly help with the accuracy problem. Downside is she loses the extra sneak attack die she could get by going rogue 5/assassin 1. Not sure if its worth it for a plus 2, or plus 3 with an essentia boosting feat.

Well, if you really want damage dice...

Rogue 1/Spellthief 1/Psychic Rogue 1/Sneak Attack Fighter (Thug) 1/Scout 1/Assassin 1, for +5d6 SA and +1d6 Skirmish. It doesn't work without fractional BAB, though, because BAB +1 on a sixth-level character is just pitiful. :smalltongue:

[ace rooster]

I would also suggest that they throw in some scout, but leave in the rogue too. Swift ambusher is able to get 4d6 skirmish and 2d6 sneak attack damage, with no significant losses at all in E6.

If the player is prepared to modify his abilities slightly then getting an int of 13 allows you to push for improved feint. It will only give you a single attack, but it can be a ranged sneak attack against flat footed AC. The player can feint anyway, which you should probably point out. It is not foolproof, but worth remembering.

You could give them free repeating heavy crossbow proficiency. It will give them much better base damage, and a better range increment. They will have to reload every so often, but can rapid shot if he really wants to keep it. Have a couple of throwing daggers handy for when you need to attack. It looks good as a 'sniper' character too, able to shoot from prone at good range. Doesn't make a build, but is nice gravy. Even the reload can be cool (though not useful), if they have cartridges of various types of magic bolts, or poisoned bolts.

[Extra Anchovies]

I would also suggest that they throw in some scout, but leave in the rogue too. Swift ambusher is able to get 4d6 skirmish and 2d6 sneak attack damage, with no significant losses at all in E6.

Scout 3/Rogue 3 gets Skirmish +2d6/+1 and 2d6 sneak attack. Where do the other skirmish dice come from?


If the player is prepared to modify his abilities slightly then getting an int of 13 allows you to push for improved feint. It will only give you a single attack, but it can be a ranged sneak attack against flat footed AC. The player can feint anyway, which you should probably point out. It is not foolproof, but worth remembering.

You can feint at range? I thought it was melee-only.

[ace rooster]

Scout 3/Rogue 3 gets Skirmish +2d6/+1 and 2d6 sneak attack. Where do the other skirmish dice come from?


2d6/+1 is enough to qualify for improved skirmish. In E6 you get plenty of feats, so why wouldn't you.



You can feint at range? I thought it was melee-only.

No, you are right. oops :smallredface:.

As a suggestion to the OP, allow them to feint at range?

[ranagrande]

The extra damage comes from taking Improved Skirmish at level 6.

Swift Ambusher vs Swift Hunter is a bitof a toss-up, and a little campaign dependent. Do you want +2d6 sneak attack, or do you want to be able to skirmish against undead and constructs?

[Jgosse]

Take 4 levels ranger. Get distracting shot. every atk after the first is sneak atk.

[Baroknik]

Take 4 levels ranger. Get distracting shot. every atk after the first is sneak atk.

Re-read Distracting Attack, it doesn't do that. Instead it gives one attack BY AN ALLY the benefit of being flanked by you. Even with the reading that you can be your own ally:
1) it only applies to one attack,
2) it ends at the start of your next turn
3) you can only gain the benefits of a flanks hen making a melee attack roll, and
4) giving flanking =/= gaining flanking, oddly enough