Unhelpful Written Rules of D&D

[Svata]

Inspired by the Helpful Unwritten Rules thread, this is for those rules that everyone ignores, are for extreme corner cases, generally weaken everyone, or just make you say "okay, and?".* Both 3.5 and PF are allowed.

An example is the favored class/multiclassing xp penalties from 3.5.

*Note, this is not for rules that don't work as intended, see the dysfunctional rules threads for those.

EDIT: cleaning up grammar, rewording.

[andysowhat]

1) Ask the Gm for levels when he haven't given you for 1 session

oh **** written rules xD

in that chase "Vow of Peace" is the best written feat ingame

[Venger]

If one abjuration spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations. The DC to find such spells with the Search skill drops by 4.

The paragon of "okay and?" in rules.

[nedz]

The paragon of "okay and?" in rules.

Actually I have seen this be relevant, but it's strictly for mid-high level and low-mid tier games. Obviously Detect Magic is a thing, but if no one has that, ...

[Venger]

Actually I have seen this be relevant, but it's strictly for mid-high level and low-mid tier games. Obviously Detect Magic is a thing, but if no one has that, ...

I would really like to hear the story of how this was relevant. Not that I don't believe you, it's just, as you said, the intersection of a lot of comparatively rare things.

as far as a rule everyone ignores, I can do one better with a ruleset basically everyone ignores (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#tacticalAerialMovement)

there are just all kinds of factors involved with flight maneuverability that no one cares about and that it's functionally impossible to keep track of in the first place, so you'll find people ignore these rules to different degrees depending on circumstances.

[Naez]

Master of Many Forms' capstone Evershifting Form gives you the shapechanger subtype which does... *checking the text* absolutely nothing. Unless you didn't already have proficiency with simple weapons (which nearly every class in the game already has).

[Venger]

Master of Many Forms' capstone Evershifting Form gives you the shapechanger subtype which does... *checking the text* absolutely nothing. Unless you didn't already have proficiency with simple weapons (which nearly ever class in the game already has).

it lets you morph back to normal in case someone blasts you with baleful polymorph

[Necroticplague]

it lets you morph back to normal in case someone blasts you with baleful polymorph

Which is made redundant by the clause immediately following it in the same ability, which makes you immune to any Transmutation unless you choose to accept it. So at best, its if you were changed into a form willingly, but want to go back to your base form now. Despite the fact that you could simply Wild Shape out into a better form anyway.

[Hamste]

It does affect a few spells that are unlikely to ever come up. So yeah pretty useless but does do something.

[Taveena]

One I just found? The Research feat from Eberron Campaign Setting. Yes, you too, for the cost of one seventh of your lifetime customization, can learn how to use a goddamn library.

How the hell did you GET your knowledge ranks without that feat? Was everyone just using oral tradition?

[tomandtish]

One I just found? The Research feat from Eberron Campaign Setting. Yes, you too, for the cost of one seventh of your lifetime customization, can learn how to use a goddamn library.

How the hell did you GET your knowledge ranks without that feat? Was everyone just using oral tradition?

Hey! The Dewey Decimal system is HARD!!!! :smallbiggrin:

[TheMonocleRogue]

Encumbrance rules have always been a chore since the dawn of 1st edition


http://www.paperspencils.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/tumblr_lsq09wsmmw1ql55zvo1_500.jpg

[geekintheground]

ib4 multiclass exp penalties

[Svata]

No you weren't. Look at the first post again.

[geekintheground]

No you weren't. Look at the first post again.

indeed i wasnt. thats what i get for skimming... :smallredface:

[Shalist]

Master of Many Forms' capstone Evershifting Form gives you the shapechanger subtype which does... *checking the text* absolutely nothing. Unless you didn't already have proficiency with simple weapons (which nearly every class in the game already has).



Traits

A shapechanger possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Proficient with its natural weapons, with simple weapons, and with any weapons mentioned in the creature’s description.
Proficient with any armor mentioned in the creature’s description, as well as all lighter forms. If no form of armor is mentioned, the shapechanger is not proficient with armor. A shapechanger is proficient with shields if it is proficient with any type of armor.Seems to me that gaining proficiency with any weapon or armor, regardless how exotic, just by mentioning it in the 'description' section of your character sheet isn't completely useless. Dunno how well it meshes with dark chaos shuffle, though.

edit: "...And on Bob's chest is an emblem of a suit of full plate armor. Or possibly mountain plate, or maybe even gnomish battle cloak. Heck, it could actually be depicting a kama, nunchuaku, sai, siangham, bastard sword, dwarven waraxe, whip, or even a spiked chain, for all you can tell..."

[Curmudgeon]

Perception (Spot and Listen) penalties are linear with distance, which can certainly function in the game system, but just make it extremely likely that groups will fail to encounter each other even at fairly close range (within 100 yards).

[nedz]

I would really like to hear the story of how this was relevant. Not that I don't believe you, it's just, as you said, the intersection of a lot of comparatively rare things.

Not that exiting: mid level Rogue finds a magical trap but only just makes his search roll because the <Wizard/whoever> put two abjuration spells on the door. You have to be highish level to have a high enough search skill for these — well successfully at least.

Find a magic trap (rogue only) 25 + level of spell used to create trap

[TypoNinja]

Which is made redundant by the clause immediately following it in the same ability, which makes you immune to any Transmutation unless you choose to accept it. So at best, its if you were changed into a form willingly, but want to go back to your base form now. Despite the fact that you could simply Wild Shape out into a better form anyway.

Well, I'd actually say we have a dysfuction here, since the Shapechanger subtype has a built in ability. The ability to morph into an Alternative Form and back again at will. MoMF seems to neglect to mention what your Alternate Form is.

[Venger]

Well, I'd actually say we have a dysfuction here, since the Shapechanger subtype has a built in ability. The ability to morph into an Alternative Form and back again at will. MoMF seems to neglect to mention what your Alternate Form is.

I think you're conflating the shapechanger subtype with the alternate form ability. Plenty of shapechangers don't adhere to the "having several altmodes" paradigm that lycanthropes do. Doppelgangers, changelings, and phasms, for example, don't have one "alternate form" they turn into, so no dysfunction.

All the shapechanger subtype does on its own is let you qualify for certain things (like warshaper or the quick change feat) and let you undo baleful polymorph and word of changing.

[The Viscount]

It's presumably whatever form you take with alter self since that's the ability talked about with that feature.

On another front, the death from massive damage rule is immensely irritating.

I'm also going to throw in Ethereal creatures, since it causes so much confusion with incorporeal creatures (largely due to ghost being both) and in general would make more sense if it weren't a creature status, just a plane.

Also throwing in sundering on general principle, and overrun without trample because I've never heard of anyone using it.

[Venger]

It's presumably whatever form you take with alter self since that's the ability talked about with that feature.

On another front, the death from massive damage rule is immensely irritating.

I'm also going to throw in Ethereal creatures, since it causes so much confusion with incorporeal creatures (largely due to ghost being both) and in general would make more sense if it weren't a creature status, just a plane.

Also throwing in sundering on general principle, and overrun without trample because I've never heard of anyone using it.

because they really thought it'd be that hard to deal 50+hp damage in a single attack.

seconding ethereal nonsense, sunder, and overrun.

I'll nominate forced march rules and its associated penumbra (amount of nonlethal damage, how long you can walk at what rates, etc) honestly, just... who cares?

[dascarletm]

Has nobody said drown healing yet? I've not ever seen it in effect. (though that's more of a dysfunction)

[Necroticplague]

I'm also going to throw in Ethereal creatures, since it causes so much confusion with incorporeal creatures (largely due to ghost being both) and in general would make more sense if it weren't a creature status, just a plane.

Ghost in general are a rules headache to work out. They exist on at least two places at once, are solid on one and not on the other, and gods help you if any plane shifting occurs. What if they can move in one of their locations, but not the other? Can you Grapple it with Force effects (incorporeal says no, ethereal says yes)? If it attacks with a ghost touch weapon, can its use its STR score that it has on another plane?

Related note: incorporeal creatures can't pass through things thicker than they are. Doesn't really seem to come from anywhere, and serves no real purpose.

[The Viscount]

Ooh, that reminds me of another one. Libris Mortis and I think Rules Compendium have this chart of when an incorporeal creature and a corporeal creature occupy the same space, one gets cover and one gets concealment of various stages depending on the size of both. It's exceptionally complicated.

Also unhelpful: Giant rock catching. I guess useful if you cast Giant's Wrath against them but other than that not really gonna come up.

[Troacctid]

Also unhelpful: Giant rock catching. I guess useful if you cast Giant's Wrath against them but other than that not really gonna come up.

Once we were in a city under siege and our Master of Many Forms morphed into a giant and started catching rocks from the enemy catapults and throwing them back.

[ninjamaster1991]

All points of origin are at the intersections between squares.

This means that you can never truly center an AoE on any single Medium-or-smaller creature.

[Astralia123]

I never saw a DM that insists you lose a spell slot when you cast it in 8 hours before you renew your spells.

Maybe there are, however, DMs who can and will keep track with every spell the players cast.

[RhoTheWanderer]

I never saw a DM that insists you lose a spell slot when you cast it in 8 hours before you renew your spells. [...]
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait. Are you saying that the DMs you play with allow you to fight in the middle of the night (or whenever you're resting during the 8 hours of rest that you need before you can prep your daily allotment of spells) and then proceed to not get a full 8 hours rest before preparing spells? And they then allow you to prepare your normal full daily allotment of spells anyway?! If I was in any of these groups, I think I would be much more inclined to play a spellcaster than I usually am:smallbiggrin:. That said, I think that completely ignoring that rule does simplify things, and prevents players from getting irritated when they get attacked at night and the spellcasters wake up (and proceed to use up any spells they had left from the previous day's murder-hoboing).

[OldTrees1]

A Full Attack is a Full Round Action.

[TypoNinja]

I think you're conflating the shapechanger subtype with the alternate form ability. Plenty of shapechangers don't adhere to the "having several altmodes" paradigm that lycanthropes do. Doppelgangers, changelings, and phasms, for example, don't have one "alternate form" they turn into, so no dysfunction.

All the shapechanger subtype does on its own is let you qualify for certain things (like warshaper or the quick change feat) and let you undo baleful polymorph and word of changing.

I don't think so, check out the SRD.


Shapechanger Subtype

A shapechanger has the supernatural ability to assume one or more alternate forms. Many magical effects allow some kind of shape shifting, and not every creature that can change shape has the shapechanger subtype.
Traits

A shapechanger possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Proficient with its natural weapons, with simple weapons, and with any weapons mentioned in the creature’s description.
Proficient with any armor mentioned in the creature’s description, as well as all lighter forms. If no form of armor is mentioned, the shapechanger is not proficient with armor. A shapechanger is proficient with shields if it is proficient with any type of armor.


Bold mine, but on the SRD that bold links directly to the Alternate Form special abiltiy. This to me says that the Alternate Form ability is an intrinsic part of the shapechanger subtype.

[Zombimode]

One I just found? The Research feat from Eberron Campaign Setting. Yes, you too, for the cost of one seventh of your lifetime customization, can learn how to use a goddamn library.

How the hell did you GET your knowledge ranks without that feat? Was everyone just using oral tradition?

I absolutely love Eberron and also think that most of the crunch stuff in the ECS is quite cool or at least use-able. But the Research feat and the Investigation feat are in my view the two worst feats in the entirety of D&D 3.5. The text of these two feats should be under Skill Uses, not feats.

[nedz]

Does the relative class power in-balance count ?

You know: you're a DM starting a new game when a party of a Cleric, a Wizard, a Fighter and a Monk turn up; and you have to write a challenging encounter for them, ...

[georgie_leech]

I don't think so, check out the SRD.



Bold mine, but on the SRD that bold links directly to the Alternate Form special abiltiy. This to me says that the Alternate Form ability is an intrinsic part of the shapechanger subtype.

Do note that in the actual SRD rather than d20srd, said alternate form links to nothing at all. Indeed, it's not even italicised, which is the usual format for indicating that a given feat or ability or what have you is referring to another game element. It seems more likely that it's an addition by the site creator, perhaps by doing a find-and-replace to catch other uses of that wording that should link. It's not exactly uncommon; I highly doubt for instance that DSP's Awakened Blade's (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/awakened-blade) Path of War feature has anything to do with the Trip combat maneuver despite linking to it.

[Andezzar]

A Full Attack is a Full Round Action.Not sure what you are getting at. A full round action is not equal to an action taking one round.

[ShurikVch]

Encumbrance rules have always been a chore since the dawn of 1st edition


http://www.paperspencils.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/tumblr_lsq09wsmmw1ql55zvo1_500.jpg

:smallamused: Relevant?
http://animechan.ru/uploads/posts/2011-11/1320809741_anime-one-piece-44816.jpeg

[Necroticplague]

I'm pretty sure the part about alternate forms is descriptive, not proscriptive. And if you want to get pedantic, Wild Shape is based off Alternate Form, so they already have that.

Another one that's usually only unhelpful because its relatively little-used: the rule that you can start a full-round action as a standard action, then finish it on your next turn for a standard action. Usually a pretty bad trade (since a full-round is normally move+standard, you've downgraded to using two standards). Only ever seen it come up with flyers who need to keep moving.

[sideswipe]

I'm pretty sure the part about alternate forms is descriptive, not proscriptive. And if you want to get pedantic, Wild Shape is based off Alternate Form, so they already have that.

Another one that's usually only unhelpful because its relatively little-used: the rule that you can start a full-round action as a standard action, then finish it on your next turn for a standard action. Usually a pretty bad trade (since a full-round is normally move+standard, you've downgraded to using two standards). Only ever seen it come up with flyers who need to keep moving.

please quote me a page reference to this useful madness!

[Andezzar]

The latter is here:
Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The “start full-round action” standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. For instance, if you are limited to taking only a standard action each turn, you can shoot a heavy crossbow every 3 rounds, needing 2 rounds to load it (a fullround action) and 1 round to shoot it. Also, if you want to cast a spell whose casting time is 1 full round, you can start the casting in one round and complete it in the following round, for example. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.It can also be found in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#startCompleteFullRoundAction)

[nyjastul69]

please quote me a page reference to this useful madness!

It can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#startCompleteFullRoundAction) in the SRD.

[Thiyr]

Hey! The Dewey Decimal system is HARD!!!! :smallbiggrin:

Don't you know the DEWEY DECIMAL SYSTEM! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZHoHaAYHq8)


Also, I'd say it's not terribly helpful that you can only technically cast a single spell during a round, plus a single additional quickened spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime) (not including the minor dysfunction in there). Even with action-economy breaking, you're limited to just those two. Though that could just be less "unhelpful" and more "unintuitive".

[Venger]

Also, I'd say it's not terribly helpful that you can only technically cast a single spell during a round, plus a single additional quickened spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime) (not including the minor dysfunction in there). Even with action-economy breaking, you're limited to just those two. Though that could just be less "unhelpful" and more "unintuitive".

No you can't. You can only cast one free action spell in a round. This is a relic from when quickened spells were frees and not swifts since the swift and immediate actions hadn't been invented yet. If you can do the right kind of actions, you can do other kinds. For example, you could cast blade of blood (a swift) and then shocking grasp (a standard) if you had the actions for them.

[Thiyr]

No you can't. You can only cast one free action spell in a round. This is a relic from when quickened spells were frees and not swifts since the swift and immediate actions hadn't been invented yet. If you can do the right kind of actions, you can do other kinds. For example, you could cast blade of blood (a swift) and then shocking grasp (a standard) if you had the actions for them.

Aaaand there's the dysfunction I mentioned. Not gonna get into the RAW argument cause, well, there really isn't one, but I was implying the update from free to swift there (or at least trying). The bigger point I had was that even if you had 2 standard actions, you can't cast three spells (standard standard swift). Or even two standard action spells, technically. There's never been anything to deprecate that language, so even if we update the free to swift as is intended, you still have that limit (which has survived up through pathfinder, as well).

[Venger]

Aaaand there's the dysfunction I mentioned. Not gonna get into the RAW argument cause, well, there really isn't one, but I was implying the update from free to swift there (or at least trying). The bigger point I had was that even if you had 2 standard actions, you can't cast three spells (standard standard swift). Or even two standard action spells, technically. There's never been anything to deprecate that language, so even if we update the free to swift as is intended, you still have that limit (which has survived up through pathfinder, as well).

ohhhh you were talking about this nonsense here:


A spell with a casting time of 1 free action doesn’t count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round.

and meant even after the invention of swift/immediate action spells, this was never "officially" repealed, so by RAW, if you get hurled off a parapet, cast feather fall as an immediate, then you aren't allowed to cast any other spells that round.

that's definitely an unhelpful written rule. good catch.


Another one that's usually only unhelpful because its relatively little-used: the rule that you can start a full-round action as a standard action, then finish it on your next turn for a standard action. Usually a pretty bad trade (since a full-round is normally move+standard, you've downgraded to using two standards). Only ever seen it come up with flyers who need to keep moving.

It's also handy when slowed or otherwise reduced to single actions only (like in a surprise round.) it also prevents you from being interrupted if you're bonked in between your two standards, since you finish those actions and aren't casting continuously.

[Chronos]

Yeah, Investigator is an even worse feat than Research. Research, at least, lets you do something. Investigator, though, just says "You're allowed to think about things you see". It doesn't even give you skill checks or anything-- It explicitly says that you still have to do the thinking yourself.

It's also a prerequisite for the most useless prestige class of all time, the Master Inquisitive, whose primary class feature is that they're allowed to talk to people (and again, get no special bonuses for doing so). The Master Inquisitive also has such a short list of class skills that if you have a 14 Int or more (and really, wouldn't you think you would?), you're literally forced to take cross-class skills.

[Venger]

Yeah, Investigator is an even worse feat than Research. Research, at least, lets you do something. Investigator, though, just says "You're allowed to think about things you see". It doesn't even give you skill checks or anything-- It explicitly says that you still have to do the thinking yourself.

It's also a prerequisite for the most useless prestige class of all time, the Master Inquisitive, whose primary class feature is that they're allowed to talk to people (and again, get no special bonuses for doing so). The Master Inquisitive also has such a short list of class skills that if you have a 14 Int or more (and really, wouldn't you think you would?), you're literally forced to take cross-class skills.

NB: investigator is one of the +2/+2 skills feats from the PHB, boosting search and gather info. the prereq to master inquisitive that everyone's talking about is called "investigate" because everything in this game has to be as confusing as possible at all times.

the MI's contacts class feature actually manages to be worse than doing nothing, since a regular character roleplaying doesn't (as a rule) need to pay for the privelege. master inquisitives do. there's a chart. you pay some amount of money every time you need your contacts to do stuff for you (but they're barred from really doing anything useful)

your bonus feats are uncommonly worthless, but what I really want to talk about is your crappy slas.

each one (zone of truth, discern lies, true seeing) is usable 1/day, but you can spend 2 action points to use them an extra time. what a steal!

[Amphetryon]

NB: investigator is one of the +2/+2 skills feats from the PHB, boosting search and gather info. the prereq to master inquisitive that everyone's talking about is called "investigate" because everything in this game has to be as confusing as possible at all times.

the MI's contacts class feature actually manages to be worse than doing nothing, since a regular character roleplaying doesn't (as a rule) need to pay for the privelege. master inquisitives do. there's a chart. you pay some amount of money every time you need your contacts to do stuff for you (but they're barred from really doing anything useful)

your bonus feats are uncommonly worthless, but what I really want to talk about is your crappy slas.

each one (zone of truth, discern lies, true seeing) is usable 1/day, but you can spend 2 action points to use them an extra time. what a steal!

So you're saying we should expect this in an upcoming Iron Chef?

[Venger]

So you're saying we should expect this in an upcoming Iron Chef?

fortunately for all of us, it's only 5 levels long.

Watch detective, on the other hand...

[Yanisa]

The Grapple Rules

Each time the DM says "hey, this creature can grab an enemy it hits" a large sigh is heard in my group.

[Fax Celestis]

Do note that in the actual SRD rather than d20srd, said alternate form links to nothing at all. Indeed, it's not even italicised, which is the usual format for indicating that a given feat or ability or what have you is referring to another game element.

Nitpick: class abilities and features are capitalized. Spells and magic items are italicized. Racial and monstrous abilities tend to be neither.

[137beth]

Not sure what you are getting at. A full round action is not equal to an action taking one round.

I think he/she is saying that he/she would rather full attacks be a standard action, because needing to stand still to make full attacks makes combat a lot less dynamic.

[Blackhawk748]

NB: investigator is one of the +2/+2 skills feats from the PHB, boosting search and gather info. the prereq to master inquisitive that everyone's talking about is called "investigate" because everything in this game has to be as confusing as possible at all times.

the MI's contacts class feature actually manages to be worse than doing nothing, since a regular character roleplaying doesn't (as a rule) need to pay for the privelege. master inquisitives do. there's a chart. you pay some amount of money every time you need your contacts to do stuff for you (but they're barred from really doing anything useful)

your bonus feats are uncommonly worthless, but what I really want to talk about is your crappy slas.

each one (zone of truth, discern lies, true seeing) is usable 1/day, but you can spend 2 action points to use them an extra time. what a steal!

Obviously this came out before Cityscape, when you know they made the rules for contacts

[Fax Celestis]

Obviously this came out before Cityscape, when you know they made the rules for contacts

Actually DMG-II did that.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

One I just found? The Research feat from Eberron Campaign Setting. Yes, you too, for the cost of one seventh of your lifetime customization, can learn how to use a goddamn library.


Hey! The Dewey Decimal system is HARD!!!! :smallbiggrin:


I consider myself fairly well read and was always the "smart kid" through primary school. This lead me to either assume that I would have a high rank in any research library use skills or just outright balk at them thinking it was a basic ability that came from literacy, intelligence and basic problem solving.

Then last year I did real research for the first time. First I spent several hours doing preliminary research on the internet, you might call it "finding out what I didn't know". Then I concluded I needed to read a specific text; Phillips, Philip. 1970. Archaeological Survey in the Lower Yazoo Basin, Mississippi, 1949-1955. Peabody Museum Papers, vol. 60. Harvard University, Cambridge.

I went to the Boston Central Library after confirming they had the book in stock and had to go to two desks to be directed to the correct place to request the book. The process of requesting a book required filling out a card and waiting twenty minutes to be called back. Then I was told to come back when their supervisor was back from lunch, then on Tuesday when the head of the department would be in.

On Tuesday I had to fill out a request card again and this time I was informed the book was missing. This sent me to another Library to seek the book. Luckily I was in Boston, I'm pretty sure the book is rare enough that otherwise equal libraries might have not had the book since it was published locally. The next day I went to the Library at Boston University. It was significantly easier to get there than it would have been at the public library, but it was in an awkward corner of the fourth floor and shelved out of order.

Even the book itself was arcane. The "Book" was split into two bindings with the index in one tome and most of the information I wanted in the other. The writing itself was highly self-referential forcing me to wiki-walk through a dozen entries before I had the foundation to read the material in earnest.


How the hell did you GET your knowledge ranks without that feat? Was everyone just using oral tradition?

I'd honestly say that that's exactly how it happened. Most of your book knowledge probably came from being handed a book by either someone who has research/library skills or someone who like you doesn't have those skills and just knows from experience that that book was helpful.

All that said, accurate portrayal of research isn't high on my priority list for a fun game.

[Venger]

or you could always just (http://www.amazon.com/ARCHAEOLOGICAL-MISSISSIPPI-1949-1955-Archaeology-University/dp/B0012KPWIM)

>1 used copy available
>400 dollars
>999 pages long

no wonder you went through all that at the library. I know that feel. research is the worst.

speaking of DMG2, the "business" rules. just... all of them. on the table of important events, like 25% of them outright destroy your business.

[Chronos]

Here's another entry: The Regenerate spell. OK, it's good for restoring lost limbs... except, how does that happen? There's no combat maneuver, weapon property, or spell which would sever limbs, and even if there were, there's no description of what penalties you'd face for lacking one. It made sense in 2nd edition, when the vorpal sword had a little brother called sword of sharpness, that cut off non-head limbs, but now? What's it for?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

All points of origin are at the intersections between squares.

This means that you can never truly center an AoE on any single Medium-or-smaller creature.

This can be annoying, but it's a necessary evil. Otherwise we'd need a rule for what happens when a square is half covered.

[Venger]

Here's another entry: The Regenerate spell. OK, it's good for restoring lost limbs... except, how does that happen? There's no combat maneuver, weapon property, or spell which would sever limbs, and even if there were, there's no description of what penalties you'd face for lacking one. It made sense in 2nd edition, when the vorpal sword had a little brother called sword of sharpness, that cut off non-head limbs, but now? What's it for?

some monsters are capable of severing body parts (besides heads) since obviously regenerate will not do anything if you have your head bitten off by a famine spirit.

the only one that immediately springs to mind is the horrifying ocularon, who can take your eyes

[Elkad]

I never saw a DM that insists you lose a spell slot when you cast it in 8 hours before you renew your spells.

Maybe there are, however, DMs who can and will keep track with every spell the players cast.

I don't track it directly, but if I interrupt the party mid-rest, I damn sure remind them of it the next morning. If the midnight encounter was sufficiently hairy, often they will just stay in camp the extra 4 hours for the arcane caster to get everything back.

It's both better and worse for the divine casters. If they get spells back at dawn, interrupted sleep means nothing. But since they have to pray at the earliest opportunity, they have no option to delay spell recovery, so they are forced to spend a day down whatever spells they cast in the prior 8 hours.

[ShurikVch]

Here's another entry: The Regenerate spell. OK, it's good for restoring lost limbs... except, how does that happen? There's no combat maneuver, weapon property, or spell which would sever limbs, and even if there were, there's no description of what penalties you'd face for lacking one. It made sense in 2nd edition, when the vorpal sword had a little brother called sword of sharpness, that cut off non-head limbs, but now? What's it for? My old list about this stuff:
Clutch of Orcus (Clr 3) - lose heart (BoVD, pg. 88)
Grim Revenge (Sor/Wiz 4) - lose arm (BoVD, pg. 97)
Heartclutch (Clr 5) - lose heart (BoVD, pg. 97)
Gutwrench (Undead Sor/Wiz 8) - lose guts (BoVD, pg. 97)
Lahm’s Finger Darts (Corrupt 2) - lose finger (BoVD, pg. 98)
Seething Eyebane (Corrupt 1) - lose eyes (BoVD, pg. 103)

Decerebrate (Psion/wilder 7) - lose part of brain (XPH, pg. 90)

Vile Rebellion (Sor/Wiz 7) - lose arms, legs and torso (Dragon #300, pg. 57)

[Hecuba]

Luckily I was in Boston, I'm pretty sure the book is rare enough that otherwise equal libraries might have not had the book since it was published locally.

Research is very easy in the modern industrialized world. Even if you couldn't have found it locally (which is unlikely, as the Harvard collections include 4 copies), the worst case scenario would be waiting for interlibrary loan. You not only have a library of last resort, you also have the benefit of international agreements on international interlibrary lending that have been operating for 87 years and formalized for over 50 exactly 50 years this year.

Outside some historical documents that have never been transcribed because they haven't been read in hundreds of years, the only real barrier to obtaining published works is time.

This would have been unthinkable for most of history. 300 years ago, a similarly obscure book could have taken years to find, with some luck.

[ShurikVch]

I think Goblinoid Subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#goblinoidSubtype) is rather unhelpful:
Goblinoids are stealthy humanoids who live by hunting and raiding and who all speak Goblin. :smallconfused: It's it? :smallsigh:

[Andezzar]

That is more than the elf or dwarf subtype. They don't even get to be arrogant tree huggers or curmudgeonly alcoholics by their subtype.

[Karnith]

Spell Immunity is a special ability described in the Monster Manual. There are, to my knowledge, a grand total of zero creatures in the Monster Manual that possess Spell Immunity. But at least they explained how it works!

[Venger]

I think Goblinoid Subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#goblinoidSubtype) is rather unhelpful: :smallconfused: It's it? :smallsigh:

you can enter stonedeath assassin

[ShurikVch]

you can enter stonedeath assassin
And spare 56000 gp on Ritual of Association :smallbiggrin:
(Also, Hexer and Dungeon Lord)

[Necroticplague]

Spell Immunity is a special ability described in the Monster Manual. There are, to my knowledge, a grand total of zero creatures in the Monster Manual that possess Spell Immunity. But at least they explained how it works!

Likewise with Energy Charge, at least in the Glossary. Opposite of energy drain, granting you positive levels, and kinda broken, with what they do to spellcasters.

[Deophaun]

Hey! The Dewey Decimal system is HARD!!!! :smallbiggrin:
The Dewey Decimal system is a relatively modern invention (by comparison, it took us less time to invent the Gatling gun and artillery recoil cylinders). But if you knew how medieval libraries were "organized," yeah, it would take a feat and probably a few levels of a Librarian class to navigate them. Often, books, if you were lucky to have books and not scrolls, were titled by the first line. Others may be collections of material and only titled after the first entry, not the actual topic. So, imagine having to find a dissertation on something, and having to unroll each and every scroll in your collection and look at the full contents of each until you find it.

Anyway, wholly inappropriate for a game simulation, but historically, you're getting off easy.

[RhoTheWanderer]

Obviously this came out before Cityscape, when you know they made the rules for contacts

Actually DMG-II did that.
The interesting thing is that not only do both books (and Unearthed Arcana) have rules for contacts, but also Complete Scoundrel further added to it. Then there's also the various rules for organizations presented in various different books (including at least a couple from the "Complete [insert name here]" series).:smallsigh: I'm not saying that contacts or organizations are bad, just sometimes it may be adding extra rules to an area that the DM can just keep vague in order to suit the purposes of the campaign. Not to mention that having to go to an old friend (i.e. your contact) and having them do something for you could just as easily be used as a plot hook for a mini-adventure of some sort. Perhaps that street urchin you befriended awhile back might ask for a favor in return for whatever valuable info he/she has, such as smuggling him/her into the Duke's ball so that he/she can spend the night pretending to be a noble for once in his/her life (perhaps dancing with a noble with which he/she is infatuated, or getting revenge against a noble who has slighted him/her, or maybe just picking a few pockets).

[Inevitability]

That is more than the elf or dwarf subtype. They don't even get to be arrogant tree huggers or curmudgeonly alcoholics by their subtype.

Not true. The elf or dwarf subtype at least is useful in determining if someone qualifies for racial feats, but the goblinoid subtype has, like a single feat it is required for?

[Mr Adventurer]

Energy charge? What?

[Karnith]

Energy charge? What?
Energy Charge (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_energycharge&alpha=E) is an ability that bestows positive levels (in much the same way that energy drain bestows negative levels) that was introduced in MM3. To my knowledge, no officially published creature actually possesses the ability, which is just as well because positive levels are extremely silly.

[Andezzar]

Not true. The elf or dwarf subtype at least is useful in determining if someone qualifies for racial feats, but the goblinoid subtype has, like a single feat it is required for?Racial feats require you to be of a certain race, they do not require you to have a certain subtype, although all members of a certain race will have the appropriate subtype, unless I am mistaken.

Feats marked with the [Racial] tag require the character to be of a specific race in order to select the feat. These feats share no other special properties and are considered to be a subset of a larger category of feats (in this book, all racial feats are general feats).

[Ettina]

Here's another entry: The Regenerate spell. OK, it's good for restoring lost limbs... except, how does that happen? There's no combat maneuver, weapon property, or spell which would sever limbs, and even if there were, there's no description of what penalties you'd face for lacking one. It made sense in 2nd edition, when the vorpal sword had a little brother called sword of sharpness, that cut off non-head limbs, but now? What's it for?

Can't called shots remove limbs?

[Andezzar]

There are no hit locations and thus no called shots in 3.5.

[ShurikVch]

Can't called shots remove limbs?

There are no hit locations and thus no called shots in 3.5.
Yes, there are called shots in 3.5
No, they can't remove limbs, unless you count head

Edit: also, tentacles: Giant octopus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/octopusGiant.htm), Kraken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kraken.htm)

[Andezzar]

Yes, there are called shots in 3.5
No, they can't remove limbs, unless you count headShow me the rule, please. I'm not aware of such a rule beside some explicit exceptions like the Hydra, which actually are sunder attempts.

[ShurikVch]

Show me the rule, please. I'm not aware of such a ruel beside some explicit exceptions like the Hydra, which actually is a sunder attempt.
Rules for tentacles mentioned above

I think you know about Vorpal

Also, Headsman's Axe and Profession (Executioner)

Various SA feats, such as Hamstring, Disemboweling Strike, Head Shot, and Throat Punch

[Venger]

Show me the rule, please. I'm not aware of such a rule beside some explicit exceptions like the Hydra, which actually are sunder attempts.

it is printed in page 27 of the DMG, but is explicitly called out as a variant:


VARIANT: DAMAGE TO SPECIFIC AREAS
Sometimes, despite the abstract nature of combat, you’re going to
want to apply damage to specific parts of the body, such as when a
character’s hands are thrust into flames, when he steps on caltrops, or
when he peeks through a hole in the wall and someone shoots an
arrow into the hole from the other side. (This situation comes up most
frequently with devious traps meant to chop at feet, smash fingers, or
the like.)
When a specific body part takes damage, you can apply a –2
penalty to any action that the character undertakes using that
portion of his body. For example, if a character’s fingers get slashed,
he makes attacks rolls with a weapon in that hand at –2 and he takes
a –2 penalty on skill checks involving the use of his hands. If a character
steps on a caltrop, he takes a –2 penalty on skill checks involving
the use of his feet (in addition to the effects described in the
Player’s Handbook).
Chapter 8 of this book defines some effects of damage to specific
body parts, such as what happens when a character is blinded or deafened.
In addition to that information, use the table below as a guide to
what rolls are modified by injuries to what body parts.
This penalty lasts until the character heals, either magically or by
resting. For a minor wound, such as stepping on a caltrop, a DC 15
Heal check, 1 point of magical healing, or a day of rest removes the
penalties.
You can allow a character to make a Fortitude save (DC 10 +
damage taken) to “tough it out” and ignore the penalty. Also, these
penalties shouldn’t stack—two hand injuries should not impose a
–4 penalty.

there's then a chart.

[toapat]

It's both better and worse for the divine casters. If they get spells back at dawn, interrupted sleep means nothing. But since they have to pray at the earliest opportunity, they have no option to delay spell recovery, so they are forced to spend a day down whatever spells they cast in the prior 8 hours.

Clerics can prepare spells late (sometimes you cant help oversleeping), it just annoys the god

[Mr Adventurer]

Jesus, even the description of positive levels is all to buggery.

[Waddacku]

Related note: incorporeal creatures can't pass through things thicker than they are. Doesn't really seem to come from anywhere, and serves no real purpose.
That's actually a pretty big limitation on the power of incorporeality. It means you can only go through barriers where you can touch both surfaces simultaneously. No simply bypassing any and all physical obstacles.

[Necroticplague]

That's actually a pretty big limitation on the power of incorporeality. It means you can only go through barriers where you can touch both surfaces simultaneously. No simply bypassing any and all physical obstacles.

Not really. How often do you find walls that are 5 feet thick? It might act as a pretty hard limit for very small creatures, but it's barely one at all once you get to small and larger. Only real situation I've seen it come up in is trying to go through tunnels using the wall as a shortcut.

Plus, it makes absolutely no sense as a concept.If you don't have a physical body, why would the thickness of a physical obstacle matter?

[Curmudgeon]

Not really. How often do you find walls that are 5 feet thick?
Pretty often, in dungeons carved out of natural rock.

[atemu1234]

I think Goblinoid Subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#goblinoidSubtype) is rather unhelpful: :smallconfused: It's it? :smallsigh:

What more do you want?

[Chronos]

I think the main purpose of the goblinoid subtype is determining which rangers and which bane weapons can best kick your butt. Which makes it a lot more relevant than [elf] or [dwarf], for practical purposes, since those aren't the players' enemies as often.

Here's another one: Shatter can be used to deal damage to crystalline creatures. Ah, yes, crystalline creatures, such as the... um... give me a moment, I'm sure I'll remember one eventually...

[Fax Celestis]

I think the main purpose of the goblinoid subtype is determining which rangers and which bane weapons can best kick your butt. Which makes it a lot more relevant than [elf] or [dwarf], for practical purposes, since those aren't the players' enemies as often.

Here's another one: Shatter can be used to deal damage to crystalline creatures. Ah, yes, crystalline creatures, such as the... um... give me a moment, I'm sure I'll remember one eventually...

Crysmal? Psion-Killer? Stained Glass Golem? Crystalline Troll? Gemstone Golem?

[Sith_Happens]

Ah, yes, crystalline creatures, such as the... um... give me a moment, I'm sure I'll remember one eventually...

Metal is crystalline.

[Fax Celestis]

Metal is crystalline.

Chemically, but I don't think that's what they meant.

[nedz]

Chemically, but I don't think that's what they meant.

Surely they meant creatures with the Crystalline sub-type, which is defined in ...

So you have to make a house-rule, as to what is Crystalline and what isn't, which means that this smells like a dysfunctional rule to me.

[Fax Celestis]

Surely they meant creatures with the Crystalline sub-type, which is defined in ...

So you have to make a house-rule, as to what is Crystalline and what isn't, which means that this smells like a dysfunctional rule to me.

Not disagreeing, just that there are clearly crystalline creatures in existence, which makes the dysfunction not that none exist but that you can't define them.

[Chronos]

Oh, I'm not saying that "Crystalline" needs a subtype: It's a pretty safe case of know-it-when-you-see-it. But crystalline creatures are incredibly rare, so rare in fact that I'm pretty sure that none at all existed when the Shatter spell was published. Which makes this a functional rule, just an almost useless one.

[Sith_Happens]

As for my own nomination: The entire last paragraph of Sneak Attack. Let's go line by line, shall we?


Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks.

This is arguably a problem with what creatures qualify for critical hit immunity rather than a problem with Sneak Attack, but most non-precision damage users don't care all that much that they can't crit sometimes. Now the justification for a creature being immune to critical hits is generally that it "lacks vital areas." So let's double check that:

Undead: I guarantee that shooting a zombie in the knees is going to be just as effective as shooting a live human in the knees (DR 5/slashing aside).

Constructs: One word: Joints. Plus quite a few constructs are described as having internal mechanisms that one could potentially muck up via stabbing.

Oozes: Correct.

Plants: Varies from creature to creature. An Assassin Vine I can see being immune, but a Phantom Fungus (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG207b.jpg)? Hell no. If nothing else, it definitely has knees.

Elementals: This one's fine.

Swarms: Duh.

Incorporeal creatures: Arguable. Most incorporeal creatures strongly resemble critable creatures, so it depends on whether that resemblance is more than superficial.

Moving on...


A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment--

Good to know that a class feature that's supposed to go hand-in-hand with hiding is actually mutually exclusive with it. And once again, the justification is highly questionable; supposedly dim light or fog makes it too hard to tell where to stab, but I've been in dark rooms and foggy areas and that's bullocks.


--or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Major blood vessels. Achilles tendons. Knees. (What can I say, kneecapping is easy and effective.:smallwink:) Need I go on? Almost every part of a typical living creature has a "vital area" if you know where to look, and the entire point of Sneak Attack is that you know where to look.

The limitations on this ability are not only the most blatant case of the Guy at the Gym Fallacy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303089-The-Guy-at-the-Gym-Fallacy) in all of D&D 3.5, they were written by someone with a poor grasp on what a "guy at the gym" can and can't do in the first place. And the end result of them is a severe nerf to Rogues.

[nedz]

Oh, I'm not saying that "Crystalline" needs a subtype: It's a pretty safe case of know-it-when-you-see-it. But crystalline creatures are incredibly rare, so rare in fact that I'm pretty sure that none at all existed when the Shatter spell was published. Which makes this a functional rule, just an almost useless one.

Closest I could find in the SRD

Animated Objects (could be Crystalline)
Salt and Ice Mephits (maybe ?)

[Wardog]

Not really. How often do you find walls that are 5 feet thick?
Realistically, many/most castle or city walls.



Metal is crystalline.
And rock. And ice. (And probably all of Redcloaks solid elementals).

[Bronk]

My old list about this stuff:
Clutch of Orcus (Clr 3) - lose heart (BoVD, pg. 88)
Grim Revenge (Sor/Wiz 4) - lose arm (BoVD, pg. 97)
Heartclutch (Clr 5) - lose heart (BoVD, pg. 97)
Gutwrench (Undead Sor/Wiz 8) - lose guts (BoVD, pg. 97)
Lahm’s Finger Darts (Corrupt 2) - lose finger (BoVD, pg. 98)
Seething Eyebane (Corrupt 1) - lose eyes (BoVD, pg. 103)

Decerebrate (Psion/wilder 7) - lose part of brain (XPH, pg. 90)

Vile Rebellion (Sor/Wiz 7) - lose arms, legs and torso (Dragon #300, pg. 57)

Here are a few more ways to lose body parts in 3.5:

-body parts missing via spell:
eyes missing from seething eyebane
brain stem via decerebrate (XPH)
guts via Gutwrench (BoVD p97)
heart via Heartclutch (BoVD p98) - restore heart or die in 1d3 rounds
heart via Clutch of Orcus (BoVD p88)
hand via grim revenge vile spell (turns hand into a wight that attacks you)
fingers via Lahm’s Finger Darts (BoVD p98) - (fingers don’t regrow)
arm via grim revenge (BoVD p97)
any body part via flesh to stone (or other petrification) and subsequent breakage
every body part but the head, separately, via Vile Rebellion (Dr 300)

-body parts missing via monster:
eyes stolen by Gadacro (MMV)
eyes stolen by Ocularon (turns them into gas bombs)
eyes pecked out by a swarm of ravens
any body part ‘sampled’ by cadaver golem from HoH (intelligent flesh golem)

-monsters: rules exist to cut off hydra’s heads and giant squid’s tentacles

-replace body parts missing after a graft, or a failed ‘X’ of vecna trick

-Removing a tooth is a full round action, and regenerate can replace the tooth after (ToM)

[Sith_Happens]

And rock. And ice. (And probably all of Redcloaks solid elementals).

Rock is heterogeneous so probably doesn't count.

[ShurikVch]

That is more than the elf or dwarf subtype. They don't even get to be arrogant tree huggers or curmudgeonly alcoholics by their subtype. There is a difference:
Goblinoid is a "meh" subtype: piece of fluff which is not even necessary true (except speaking Goblin)

Dwarf and Elf are "ghost" subtypes: they exist, but not described anywhere (and, unlike Goblinoid, not even a prerequisite to anything).
Still, they are better than Human subtype - it's not even in the Monster Manual!

[Telok]

Everyone knows about the Darkness spell, how it creates 20% miss chance and can lighten total darkness. But actually read the spell and compare it to the vision and light tables.

Thr Darkness spell makes it's area as bright as candle light.

It also supresses artifical light sources, lower level [light] spells, low light vision and darkvision. But it's candle light and does not block line of sight.

[Barstro]

This entire post (and probably thread) stems from trying to join real world laws-of-physics with d20 rules.

I hate keeping posts long, but I don't see many things that can be taken out for brevity.


As for my own nomination: The entire last paragraph of Sneak Attack. Let's go line by line, shall we?
This is arguably a problem with what creatures qualify for critical hit immunity rather than a problem with Sneak Attack, but most non-precision damage users don't care all that much that they can't crit sometimes. Now the justification for a creature being immune to critical hits is generally that it "lacks vital areas." So let's double check that:

Undead: I guarantee that shooting a zombie in the knees is going to be just as effective as shooting a live human in the knees (DR 5/slashing aside).

Constructs: One word: Joints. Plus quite a few constructs are described as having internal mechanisms that one could potentially muck up via stabbing.

Plants: Varies from creature to creature. An Assassin Vine I can see being immune, but a Phantom Fungus (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG207b.jpg)? Hell no. If nothing else, it definitely has knees.

Incorporeal creatures: Arguable. Most incorporeal creatures strongly resemble critable creatures, so it depends on whether that resemblance is more than superficial.

The problem here is not so much the rule as it is the interpretation of "precision damage". Any thug with an axe can go after (or inadvertently hit) a knee. That's not what sneak attack (backstab, vital strike, or whatever synonym) does. The attack needs to be pictured as ruining some internal vital organs. The random knee chopping is incorporated in the randomness of the damage roll. If you look at it as vital organs (lung, heart, etc.) the above all make sense.



(RE: Concealment) Good to know that a class feature that's supposed to go hand-in-hand with hiding is actually mutually exclusive with it. And once again, the justification is highly questionable; supposedly dim light or fog makes it too hard to tell where to stab, but I've been in dark rooms and foggy areas and that's bullocks.

Again, the damage is supposed to be because the trained individual can very precisely get to a hard to find vital organ. I assume this started with rogues only being able to use piercing weapons, but then it all morphed through the generations to include other weapons. When looked at this way, it is easy to see why concealment would have such an effect. Rogues just need a good way to bypass or ignore concealment.



Major blood vessels. Achilles tendons. Knees. (What can I say, kneecapping is easy and effective.:smallwink:) Need I go on? Almost every part of a typical living creature has a "vital area" if you know where to look, and the entire point of Sneak Attack is that you know where to look.

Again, those same points can be inadvertently destroyed by someone with an axe. Precision damage is a special art.



And the end result of them is a severe nerf to Rogues.
Well... true.

But I submit that the rules are not bad, or poorly written, or useless. Instead, they do not do what you think a Rogue should do based on applying the real world.

Not that I disagree with you. But the rules taken as a whole are not useless or contradictory. Sometimes a Rogue can do more damage than all other party members combined. Sometimes they just need to sit back and sharpen their knives while everyone else does the work.

[Zombimode]

Constructs: One word: Joints. Plus quite a few constructs are described as having internal mechanisms that one could potentially muck up via stabbing.

You're reducing Constructs to mechanical constructs, which only make a tiny fraction of the set of creatures of the construct type. Most constructs resemble, or are, golems. A golem is a heap of animated matter with no mechanical parts whatsoever.

[dascarletm]

You're reducing Constructs to mechanical constructs, which only make a tiny fraction of the set of creatures of the construct type. Most constructs resemble, or are, golems. A golem is a heap of animated matter with no mechanical parts whatsoever.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140315195021/disney/images/5/57/Frozen-disneyscreencaps.com-8328.jpg

[Zombimode]

I'm pretty sure "Power Attack" were the words you wanted to say because thats what the picture is showing.

[dascarletm]

doubt it. Did you not see the flanking going on there?

also pretty sure Hans is a rogue. Doubt he took power attack.

furthermore! power attack doesn't remove legs. Therefore I win.

[Necroticplague]

Even a solid mass of material, liquid or solid, has weak points. Points you can strike that are more vulnerable than others. If you fight a hole with a vaguely humanoid shape, you avoid hitting the curved parts (which would deflect your weapon off of them), and instead aim for any "hooks" where two body parts meet that deflect force in an advantageous manner to you. Plus, unless its a perfectly homogenous creature, it would likely still have part of it that are weaker than others (maybe you smash at a crack in a stone golem, or a slightly rusty patch in an iron one) that Sneak Attack could be targeting.

More on-topic, partial charges are one thing I'd slot in this category. Not the idea as a whole, I actually love it. However, the fact that you can only perform one when you're limited to a standard or move action, is definitely one. If its an action that takes a standard action, then why are you suddenly unable to do it if you have a move action to use?

[Troacctid]

More on-topic, partial charges are one thing I'd slot in this category. Not the idea as a whole, I actually love it. However, the fact that you can only perform one when you're limited to a standard or move action, is definitely one. If its an action that takes a standard action, then why are you suddenly unable to do it if you have a move action to use?

Definitely with you on this one. They changed charging to a standard action in 4th edition and I think it makes a lot more sense that way.

[The Viscount]

The interaction of improved grab, Constrict, and rake. Yes, they all interact. The worst part is that they're sometimes all three on the same monster.

The fact that a grappling creature is flatfooted to all except other creatures in the grapple. There is one feat that allows you to deal SA vs grappled foes, but it requires you be wildshaped.:smallconfused:

I'm also just going to add the fact that multiple creatures can participate in a grapple. Has anyone used it? Did anything come of it?

[atemu1234]

I'm also just going to add the fact that multiple creatures can participate in a grapple. Has anyone used it? Did anything come of it?

What's the french word for 12?

[Andezzar]

More on-topic, partial charges are one thing I'd slot in this category. Not the idea as a whole, I actually love it. However, the fact that you can only perform one when you're limited to a standard or move action, is definitely one. If its an action that takes a standard action, then why are you suddenly unable to do it if you have a move action to use?There are no partial charges in 3.5. There is only the Charge Full Round action. This Full Round Action however is allowed to be performed even if the character can only take a move or standard action. In this case the character can only move his speed (not double his speed). The reason why the Charge action is not generally available as a standard action is because the designers do not want characters to change direction "during" a charge without investment.


What's the french word for 12?Douze. What's that got to do with anything?

[atemu1234]

Douze. What's that got to do with anything?

Television show reference :smallbiggrin:.

[Vogonjeltz]

snip

Not playing any Eberron campaigns, I'd never even heard of this feat until now. I think it's an interesting simulation of having the ability to act as a skilled researcher. Are there rules anywhere else for how to handle research? Or is this basically left up to the DM in core?