Gestalt Gish help

[Jgosse]

Before I get to the topic I will address a couple of things.
This character already is in play so suggestions that involve rebuilding are not useful in this situation.
We play with bonded gestalt so if we multi class we have to do it on both sides. X//y 5 a//B 4.

The player has been playing for about 20 years not very familiar with 3.5 and not a optimizer.

One of my fellow players is feeling a little left behind. he is a sorcerer//fighter 5 no acf and not sure what feats he took. I want to try and help him out a bit maybe by finding a prestige class for him and a good class that we could bond with it. I was wondering if there is a PrC that will let him use armor for sorcerer spells or channel spells through his sword. As of right now the only thought I have is eldritch knight//scout.

He is a assimar and uses a long sword.

[Astralia123]

Gestalt multiclassing is really a difficult thing to handle I would say....

Don't you have the Complete Series? I'm sure there are quite straightforward answers to your questions here.

1)Armored casting: 2 options. Lowering arcane failure, or armored caster class feature.
You can gain the former by selecting spellsword (CW). This PrC is quite perfect, but its best rewards come a bit slow.
For the latter one, if this character selects the Armored Mage fighter substitute class feature from Complete Mage, he loses armor proficiency above light armor but can cast arcane spell without failure in light armor. There is also the Battle Caster feat in CA that allows you raise this armored caster feature to medium armor. Or you can use another substitute class feature from Race of Dragon, which gives you a "suit" of armor made of your own scales, and it has no arcane failure.

I'm not sure if your multi-class rule support spellsword PrC, and it is already late for this character to select either Armored Mage or Dragonscale Husk as you gain heavy armor proficiency, but you may consult your DM if you can work out this.

On the other hand, your fellow may not have to wear real armor as he can easily select Abjurant Champion PrC. Just make sure he has the right spells.


2)Suitable PrC: As mentioned, Spellsword and Abjurant Champion are great PrCs (if not best) for a gish. I'm not sure about your multi-classing rules, though; for a A/B 5 and C/D 4 character, does the rule allow you fulfill C's prerequisites with features from A and B at the same time? Say, does a fighter/sorcerer 5 character fulfill prerequisites for Abjurant Champion?

Yet there are still good options even this does not work, as he is a Gestalt character: he can select a PrC for mages and a PrC for fighters at the same time. This may not solve the problem of spell direction and armored casting, but still not bad.

[Rebel7284]

What books are available?
What is the character's alignment?

Paladins traditionally go very well with Sorcerers in gestalt due to charisma to saves.

The best class I know for channeling spells is Duskblade, but there are also Spellsword 4, Ordained Champion 3, and Smiting Spell metamagic feat.

Spellsword and Abjurant Champion are indeed great classes. Duskblade gives you the feat prerequisite for Abjurant Champion too!

While Spellsword is useful, due to the bonding nature of classes that you describe, it's difficult to justify taking it for more than one level.

Perhaps something like this would prove useful:
Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5
Fighter 6/Duskblade 3/Battle Dancer 1/Paladin of Freedom 5 [charging smite]

You get your charisma both to AC and saves.
You get free metamagic with Incantatrix and Abjurant Champion.
Your arcane spell failure is reduced by 10%. If you use Mithral armor, that gets reduced another 10%. Then you can apply Githcraft and Feycraft templates from DMG2 to get it even lower, but I recommend just sticking to a breastplate so your movement is not affected. Of course you can also just use spells for AC.
Duskblade allows you to channel spells.

There are of course many variants on this theme. :)

[Jgosse]

First my apologies for taking so long to get back to you I was at work and don't like making detailed posts on my phone.


Gestalt multiclassing is really a difficult thing to handle I would say....

Don't you have the Complete Series? I'm sure there are quite straightforward answers to your questions here. I do, but I am not so familiar with Gish builds and wanted to reach out to the playground.



1)Armored casting: 2 options. Lowering arcane failure, or armored caster class feature.
You can gain the former by selecting spellsword (CW). This PrC is quite perfect, but its best rewards come a bit slow.
For the latter one, if this character selects the Armored Mage fighter substitute class feature from Complete Mage, he loses armor proficiency above light armor but can cast arcane spell without failure in light armor. There is also the Battle Caster feat in CA that allows you raise this armored caster feature to medium armor. Or you can use another substitute class feature from Race of Dragon, which gives you a "suit" of armor made of your own scales, and it has no arcane failure.

I'm not sure if your multi-class rule support spellsword PrC, and it is already late for this character to select either Armored Mage or Dragonscale Husk as you gain heavy armor proficiency, but you may consult your DM if you can work out this.

On the other hand, your fellow may not have to wear real armor as he can easily select Abjurant Champion PrC. Just make sure he has the right spells.This Player says he does not want to rebuild he made his choice and he will deal with it. he also has focused almost exclusively on offensive spells but he can always pick them now and move into the PrC.




2)Suitable PrC: As mentioned, Spellsword and Abjurant Champion are great PrCs (if not best) for a gish. I'm not sure about your multi-classing rules, though; for a A/B 5 and C/D 4 character, does the rule allow you fulfill C's prerequisites with features from A and B at the same time? Say, does a fighter/sorcerer 5 character fulfill prerequisites for Abjurant Champion? yes while they are bonded they are not separate more like they become a single class.



Yet there are still good options even this does not work, as he is a Gestalt character: he can select a PrC for mages and a PrC for fighters at the same time. This may not solve the problem of spell direction and armored casting, but still not bad.I think in the srd for gestalt it says no double PrC but if not we are not allowed anyway.

[Astralia123]

yes while they are bonded they are not separate more like they become a single class.


I think in the srd for gestalt it says no double PrC but if not we are not allowed anyway.

That sounds weird, can't he take the 6th level with fighter/spellsword? If yes, then:

6th: Fighter6/Spellsword1
7th: Sorcerer6/Spellsword2

Thus ensuring he gets full caster level progressing and 4th level spellsword class feature.
Similar tricks can be played on Havoc Mage from minature handbook, this is a gish PrC that allows you cast spell and attack with weapon in same round but loses caster level and has 1/2 BAB.



If not, then he may wish to multiclass in duskblade while progressing in Abjurant Champion or some other full caster level PrCs. It is not noted in Arcane Channeling class feature that it only applies for Duskblade spells, unlike Armored Mage feature. So at least he is sure to get full bab and caster level, as well as spell channeling ability at the same time.

Or he can multi-class in a heavy armor class to trade Dragonscale Husk, say, Cleric, and then multi-class in Ordained Champion from Complete Champion, it grants Channel Spell feature that is not limited to certain spell lists. Just make sure he has at least 11 wisdom to fulfill the prerequisites.

The point is to get all (or most of) these things at the same time: full caster level, full bab, armored casting/armor abilities without arcane failure, spell channeling (any form). Hit Die and saves should also be optimized if possible.

Those no arcane failure armors includes Dragonscale Husk and Mage Armor series spells. They provide armor AC that is no less than real armors (in optimized cases) but cannot be enchanted like real armors. On the other hand, it is unlikely that a wizard can finally achieve 0 arcane failure with full plate at mid-level, no matter how. (Unless he is a dwarf and takes PrCs from Race of Stone, but your teammate is unlikely to become one.)


If he is more interested in combining casting and attacking in same round (it may fit him better actually as he apparently shows a favour in damage spells), then Havoc Mage and Raumathari Battlemage (Unapproachable East) will come in handy. The latter one is more interesting actually...I envy you guys who can make use of gestalt character advantage to offset the drawbacks of such classes, I envy you!

[Jgosse]

What books are available?
What is the character's alignment?

Paladins traditionally go very well with Sorcerers in gestalt due to charisma to saves.

The best class I know for channeling spells is Duskblade, but there are also Spellsword 4, Ordained Champion 3, and Smiting Spell metamagic feat.

Spellsword and Abjurant Champion are indeed great classes. Duskblade gives you the feat prerequisite for Abjurant Champion too!

While Spellsword is useful, due to the bonding nature of classes that you describe, it's difficult to justify taking it for more than one level.

Perhaps something like this would prove useful:
Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5
Fighter 6/Duskblade 3/Battle Dancer 1/Paladin of Freedom 5 [charging smite]

You get your charisma both to AC and saves.
You get free metamagic with Incantatrix and Abjurant Champion.
Your arcane spell failure is reduced by 10%. If you use Mithral armor, that gets reduced another 10%. Then you can apply Githcraft and Feycraft templates from DMG2 to get it even lower, but I recommend just sticking to a breastplate so your movement is not affected. Of course you can also just use spells for AC.
Duskblade allows you to channel spells.

There are of course many variants on this theme. :)
books almost any WoTC with DM's OK
Alignment something Good
I would like to keep it to something simple as he is not comfortable with a lot of heavy power gaming. 1PrC with a good secondary combat class. I was thinking of scout or maybe martial paladin. I really don't want to suggest to him something that will give him a second spell list to keep track of.

maybe Sorcerer //fighter 6, spell sword // WF,P ponce Barbarian 1, Eldritch knight//paladin or maybe scout 10

[Jgosse]

That sounds weird, can't he take the 6th level with fighter/spellsword? If yes, then:

6th: Fighter6/Spellsword1
7th: Sorcerer6/Spellsword2

Thus ensuring he gets full caster level progressing and 4th level spellsword class feature.
Similar tricks can be played on Havoc Mage from minature handbook, this is a gish PrC that allows you cast spell and attack with weapon in same round but loses caster level and has 1/2 BAB.



If not, then he may wish to multiclass in duskblade while progressing in Abjurant Champion or some other full caster level PrCs. It is not noted in Arcane Channeling class feature that it only applies for Duskblade spells, unlike Armored Mage feature. So at least he is sure to get full bab and caster level, as well as spell channeling ability at the same time.

Or he can multi-class in a heavy armor class to trade Dragonscale Husk, say, Cleric, and then multi-class in Ordained Champion from Complete Champion, it grants Channel Spell feature that is not limited to certain spell lists. Just make sure he has at least 11 wisdom to fulfill the prerequisites.

The point is to get all (or most of) these things at the same time: full caster level, full bab, armored casting/armor abilities without arcane failure, spell channeling (any form). Hit Die and saves should also be optimized if possible.

Those no arcane failure armors includes Dragonscale Husk and Mage Armor series spells. They provide armor AC that is no less than real armors (in optimized cases) but cannot be enchanted like real armors. On the other hand, it is unlikely that a wizard can finally achieve 0 arcane failure with full plate at mid-level, no matter how. (Unless he is a dwarf and takes PrCs from Race of Stone, but your teammate is unlikely to become one.)


If he is more interested in combining casting and attacking in same round (it may fit him better actually as he apparently shows a favour in damage spells), then Havoc Mage and Raumathari Battlemage (Unapproachable East) will come in handy. The latter one is more interesting actually...I envy you guys who can make use of gestalt character advantage to offset the drawbacks of such classes, I envy you!


You say weird but to me it is the only way gestalt makes sense. No once you bond two classes you must take a level of both and at no time can you take a level of one with out the other.

I must say thank you for mentioning Havoc mage it looks like maybe the best solution.

[Jeff the Green]

How about Duskblade//Archivist? Maybe stick in Abjurant Champion//Sacred Exorcist. Something like Illumian (Naenhoon or Aeshkrau) Duskblade 7/Abjurant Champion 5/Duskblade +8 (15)//Archivist 7/Sacred Exorcist 5/Archivist +8 (15). Remember that you can channel spells from other classes, not just Duskblade.

Naenhoon will save you a feat on DMM, while Aeshkrau will let you base your Archivist bonus spells on Strength rather than Wisdom.

[Jgosse]

How about Duskblade//Archivist? Maybe stick in Abjurant Champion//Sacred Exorcist. Something like Illumian (Naenhoon or Aeshkrau) Duskblade 7/Abjurant Champion 5/Duskblade +8 (15)//Archivist 7/Sacred Exorcist 5/Archivist +8 (15). Remember that you can channel spells from other classes, not just Duskblade.

Naenhoon will save you a feat on DMM, while Aeshkrau will let you base your Archivist bonus spells on Strength rather than Wisdom.
I don't think he would go for the multiple spell lists. So I am only looking at arcane gish PrCs. Any way I know for our campaigh we can't and as far as I knew it was in srd that you can't gestalt two PrCs.

[DarkSonic1337]

How about swiftblade? Free quicken on your haste spell, free concealment and 50% chance to avoid targeted SPELLS, an EXTRA STANDARD ACTION, and the capstone of a consistent timestop (no 1d4+1, it's just 1 round for 6th level slot, 2 rounds for 7th, ect ect).