Gobbotopias Future

[AGD]

I was thinking about something. The Citizens of Azure City are living at the Moment on the Elven Island, where V teleported them. So they don't exactly need their City back. And to stop Xykon and Redcloak, the OotS must defeat them at Kraagors Gate and not in Azure City/Gobbotopia. So is it possible, that the Goblins can keep Azure City/Gobbotopia after the Defeat of Xykon and Redcloak and make Peace with Hinjo and the remaining Citizens of Azure City, while Hinjo is building a new City on the Elven Island. Or maybe that the Goblins are switching Places with the Azure Citizens and build their Gobbotopia on the Elven Island, while the Azure Citizens get their City back. I know that Peace between this People would be very difficult, but i hope, that it can happen.

I just don't want Gobbotopia to fall. Yes, there is Slavery and that is horrible and must stop, if the Goblins really want Peace with the Humans, but i still want a Place in the World for the Goblins. It would bug me, if Gobbotopia would fall in the End and the Goblins would be again just XP-Fodder for Clerics and other Heroes. If just because we don't want a new Redcloak after all is over.

[Keltest]

I suspect that Rich wouldn't allow that to happen, if only because it would somewhat undermine his "racism is bad" message he has going on if the biggest victims of racism get slaughtered and eliminated for fighting back.

My personal theory is that the Azure City refugees (who have ships) team up with Gobbotopia (who have troops) to fight some currently-unrevealed menace, win, and from there create a truce that allows both sides to have a moderately happy ending. The menace may or may not be caused by Redcloak and Xykon.

[factotum]

I'm pretty sure that the inhabitants of Azure City will want to return to their homes--the real ones, not the refugee huts they're living in on the elven island. However nice the island might be, that overriding urge to go back will be there, and if Hinjo were to broker a deal whereby the goblinoids got to keep Azure City--well, he'd probably be lynched by his own people.

[Windscion]

Well this kinda relates to a thought I had recently, so here goes. This draws heavily from the prequels, so apologies to those who don't have them. Briefly, Redcloak, as High Priest of the Dark One, the goblinoid God, is trying to use the snarl to blackmail the Gods into not giving the demihumans the shaft. This is the "Plan."

In "Origin of the PCs" Roy finds a peaceful way to handle a tribe of orcs. The rest of his party (not OOTS, an earlier group) wanted to just kill them because it was faster and easier. This made me think that when Roy learns why Redcloak is following the Plan, he may well conclude that RC's cause is just. Not his methods, his cause. Since the Azurites slaughtered RC's people, he may regard Azure City as a fair bloodprice.

Okay, the gods, much less the azureites, might not want to listen. But say Roy initiates negotiations as part of an attempt to avoid letting the world get destroyed. At that point, even the Gods might be forced to listen to a balanced proposal. (Recall that Roy and V are already wondering how much of what they have been told is fact.)

Anyway, this suggests one way Gobbotopia might be permitted to retain Azure City. But it is by no means a sure thing.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

While I think it would be nice if the Azurites and goblinoids could end this conflict peacefully and perhaps work together, I agree with factotum that the Azurites want their city and original homes back, so I think there's conflict to come.

[zimmerwald1915]

At this point I'm pretty sure the city's going to end up swallowed by Soon's Rift.

[Reboot]

Also the question of how Prime Minister Jirix is getting on, given the slightly brutal hint at the end of #833...

[Mike Havran]

Other than the fact that Soon's rift has to be addressed somehow before the main story ends, I see no reason why either nation should play a role in the future plot. Both have stable place to live and prosper, and Azurites don't have the numbers to retake their old land. I see no peace between them either, both nations will loathe each other for very good reasons. A few generations later, the edge could be dulled.

[Keltest]

Other than the fact that Soon's rift has to be addressed somehow before the main story ends, I see no reason why either nation should play a role in the future plot. Both have stable place to live and prosper, and Azurites don't have the numbers to retake their old land. I see no peace between them either, both nations will loathe each other for very good reasons. A few generations later, the edge could be dulled.

The Azurites may have a land where they aren't immediately dying, but it was never indicated to be anything other than a temporary defensive location so that they can stop getting attacked by sea creatures. They aren't going to be building a new kingdom there.

[Peelee]

The Azurites may have a land where they aren't immediately dying, but it was never indicated to be anything other than a temporary defensive location so that they can stop getting attacked by sea creatures. They aren't going to be building a new kingdom there.

Why not? Its wooded land, on the sea, so there are resources and food, and the area is not dissimilar to what the Azurites came from. Existing structures mean they don't have to rebuild COMPLETELY from scratch. And the coast gives ample trading opportunity. Why wouldn't it be permanent?

[Keltest]

Why not? Its wooded land, on the sea, so there are resources and food, and the area is not dissimilar to what the Azurites came from. Existing structures mean they don't have to rebuild COMPLETELY from scratch. And the coast gives ample trading opportunity. Why wouldn't it be permanent?

Because they want their land back. Furthermore, the primary reason their allies claimed to be unwilling to assist them (Xykon and Redcloak) are now nonissues. Its not like they couldn't make a city there if they really wanted to, they just don't want to, not if the alternative is fighting back against the goblins and getting their homes back.

[Mike Havran]

Because they want their land back. Furthermore, the primary reason their allies claimed to be unwilling to assist them (Xykon and Redcloak) are now nonissues. Its not like they couldn't make a city there if they really wanted to, they just don't want to, not if the alternative is fighting back against the goblins and getting their homes back.I'm not that sure about it. Hinjo and the remaining members of ruling class may want it badly, but I guess the majority of the common folk will prefer safe place to live with their families over uncertainty of a crusade against more numerous and motivated enemy.

I believe that Hinjo, good leader as he is, already sees that reconquista is out of scope, at least for the duration of his reign.

Edit: Or, more likely, he hopes the Order, as his high-level PC allies, will take the brunt of the work after they finish their quest.

[Gift Jeraff]

Without Epic Teleport, the Azurites returning to their home en masse seems impractical. I imagine there would be a significant portion of the population that does not want to go on a year(s)-long voyage for a chance to maybe have their old homes back.

[brian 333]

For goblins conflict is a requirement for a fulfilled life, as much as drinking ale is required for dwarves and political intrigue for humans. A Gobbotopia that is not challenged to fight for its existence would be far too Lawful Good a place for goblinkind. Azure City must engender anger amongst its neighbors or it will fail as a Utipian Ideal for goblins.

Add to the fact that the Sapphire Guard cannot thrive without evil to hunt, toss in some hereditary revenge, and you have a twofer! Good for the goblins, and good for the Sapphire Guard! Yay!

[Peelee]

Because they want their land back. Furthermore, the primary reason their allies claimed to be unwilling to assist them (Xykon and Redcloak) are now nonissues. Its not like they couldn't make a city there if they really wanted to, they just don't want to, not if the alternative is fighting back against the goblins and getting their homes back.

In addition to what Gift Jeraff said, wanting doesn't equate to doing. Their army got decimated, and even if they convert the entire population to military, like the Gobbos did, they'd still be very outnumbered militarily. Why fight a war you can't win?

[Keltest]

Without Epic Teleport, the Azurites returning to their home en masse seems impractical. I imagine there would be a significant portion of the population that does not want to go on a year(s)-long voyage for a chance to maybe have their old homes back.

Where are you getting this "Years long" nonsense? It took them ~ a year to find the ruins because they were searching aimlessly. They had no idea where they were going. It will take them significantly less time to sail between two known locations.


In addition to what Gift Jeraff said, wanting doesn't equate to doing. Their army got decimated, and even if they convert the entire population to military, like the Gobbos did, they'd still be very outnumbered militarily. Why fight a war you can't win?

Like I said, the primary reason they have been unable to get military aid in reclaiming their city (Xykon) is no longer an issue.

[Gift Jeraff]

Where are you getting this "Years long" nonsense? It took them ~ a year to find the ruins because they were searching aimlessly. They had no idea where they were going. It will take them significantly less time to sail between two known locations.

DStP showed that in that year they were still in Southern waters close to Azure City. They are now much farther away thanks to V's Epic Teleport.

[Keltest]

DStP showed that in that year they were still in Southern waters close to Azure City. They are now much farther away thanks to V's Epic Teleport.

Yeah, and? It took the Machine days to cross the ocean to the Northern continent, and while id imagine a fleet of ships would travel a good bit slower actually sailing rather than flying, estimating the trip at months is still rather pessimistic.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Where are you getting this "Years long" nonsense? It took them ~ a year to find the ruins because they were searching aimlessly. They had no idea where they were going. It will take them significantly less time to sail between two known locations.

Heck, with Divination magic they don't even really need to draw a map. Cast, say, Find the Path, set course and hold.

You could also summon something to guide you.

Which means the biggest issue is that you don't know the currents and waves.

[Emperor Time]

Pretty sure that Gobbotopia will probably be decimated by the end of the story. Since at least half of the population of Azure City is still enslaved. And there no way it won't lead to the conflict of most likely of a war unless the goblins free every slave they have and I doubt they will ever do something like that.

[Peelee]

Like I said, the primary reason they have been unable to get military aid in reclaiming their city (Xykon) is no longer an issue.

Dude, they don't need military aid. They need a military. It got decimated in the Battle of Azure City. They have some soldiers, sure, but not nearly enough. This isn't a question of getting help. They cant fight without an entire other army's help, and if you think that'd on the cards, then I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

[Khay]

Being a highly militarized, racist, xenophobic theocracy built on slavery and conquest, I have slight doubts that peaceful co-existence between Gobbotopia and the rest of the world is really an option.

(That's the maximally unfriendly viewpoint, of course. I just feel like some people are overly optimistic about Gobbotopia. In reality, what'll probably happen is that international relations will be poor but nobody will care enough to go to war, and low-level adventurers occasionally get quests regarding slavery raids or something.)

[oppyu]

The forces of New Azure City probably wouldn't bother with Gobbotopia if it weren't for the fact that the goblins are keeping former Azure citizens as slaves. With Xykon and Redcloak out of the picture, they'll be trying to do something about that. Whether it's 'diplomatically secure the release of the slaves' or 'get our allies to kill every last gob bastard in there.'

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The forces of New Azure City probably wouldn't bother with Gobbotopia if it weren't for the fact that the goblins are keeping former Azure citizens as slaves. With Xykon and Redcloak out of the picture, they'll be trying to do something about that. Whether it's 'diplomatically secure the release of the slaves' or 'get our allies to kill every last gob bastard in there.'

I agree. While the Azurites might be otherwise inclined to just stay in their new home and perhaps, many generations later, make a push to get their homelands back, with the goblinoids keeping their people as slaves, they will probably want to do something to change that situation that may go as far as violence.

[ti'esar]

Without making any definite predictions about what's going to ultimately happen with them, I'm a bit surprised to hear people feeling that the Azurite refugees and Gobbotopia are unlikely to be seen again at all, or that the only reason they would be is Soon's Rift. The cycle of conflict between Azure City and the goblins is pretty important to both the plot and themes of OOTS, and I'd think it'd be fairly obvious that it's going to have some kind of resolution in the comic - even if it's just a deliberate non-resolution - and not just be forgotten about and never mentioned again.

[137beth]

I think that at some point Gobbotopia will be in peril, at which point Redcloak will have another epiphany, and realize that he fatally misinterpreted the Dark One's message of "don't screw this up." Redcloak thought that the 'this' was the Plan, but it actually referred to Gobbotopia.
After the Snarl, though, I think the biggest threat to Gobbotopia is not actually the Azurites, but Xykon. The Azurites would have a very difficult time taking it back, given that other nations have recognized it. Xykon is the only one who could easily pop in and kill all the goblin leaders just because he's bored and/or found out that Redcloak betrayed him.

[Khay]

Without making any definite predictions about what's going to ultimately happen with them, I'm a bit surprised to hear people feeling that the Azurite refugees and Gobbotopia are unlikely to be seen again at all, or that the only reason they would be is Soon's Rift. The cycle of conflict between Azure City and the goblins is pretty important to both the plot and themes of OOTS, and I'd think it'd be fairly obvious that it's going to have some kind of resolution in the comic - even if it's just a deliberate non-resolution - and not just be forgotten about and never mentioned again.

Yes, that, basically. I'm personally thinking deliberate non-resolution, but we'll see. I wonder what kind of leader Jirix will turn out to be, given that his main qualifications seem to be "Redcloak knows his name" and "he has PC class levels".


The Azurites would have a very difficult time taking it back, given that other nations have recognized it.

Minor nitpick: Redcloak does say that 17 nations have recognised Gobbotopia, but we don't really know what 16 of them are like. If they're mostly tiny specks of land on the Western Continent or kobold mines or something, that doesn't neccessarily really mean a lot. Cliffport is a major power, but as opportunistic as they are, I can't exactly see them rushing to Gobbotopia's defense.

[jidasfire]

I think the fact that the Snarl is finally awake is bad news for Gobbotopia. Obviously, we haven't yet seen any real fallout from its attack on Laurin and Miron, or if that is something it's doing everywhere, but Azure City/Gobbotopia is the only area with a destroyed Gate that is populated, and if the Snarl attacks, it is going to be eating a lot of souls. My suspicion for awhile has been that that was why the Resistance was killed off. So we wouldn't have to worry about their souls being cast into oblivion.

[Gift Jeraff]

I think the fact that the Snarl is finally awake is bad news for Gobbotopia. Obviously, we haven't yet seen any real fallout from its attack on Laurin and Miron, or if that is something it's doing everywhere, but Azure City/Gobbotopia is the only area with a destroyed Gate that is populated, and if the Snarl attacks, it is going to be eating a lot of souls. My suspicion for awhile has been that that was why the Resistance was killed off. So we wouldn't have to worry about their souls being cast into oblivion.

So the Azurites' souls are supposed to be worth more to the audience than the goblinoids', just because they're human? That doesn't really gel with Rich's message.

Besides, there were filthy elven souls that got spared if that's the case.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

So the Azurites' souls are supposed to be worth more to the audience than the goblinoids', just because they're human? That doesn't really gel with Rich's message.

Besides, there were filthy elven souls that got spared if that's the case.

Also, even if that was the point of killing of the Resistance, the slaves are still alive and working in Gobbotopia, so their souls would be obliterated.

[jidasfire]

So the Azurites' souls are supposed to be worth more to the audience than the goblinoids', just because they're human? That doesn't really gel with Rich's message.

Besides, there were filthy elven souls that got spared if that's the case.

Sorry, didn't see you all the way up on that high horse.

I'm not referring to value of souls per species. I'm talking about characters who are ostensibly good guys (Thanh, for instance) and the various slaves his team rescued and how it might be a little extra bleak if said characters were obliterated. But I suspect this is not a fight I can win, so I will simply say I don't value the fictional souls of one fictional race over another and bow out before the firestorm.

[ReaderAt2046]

I'm hoping for a truce whereby the goblins give up all their slaves (and ban slavery in their territories) in exchange for the Azurites formally ceding Azure City and its environs.

[zimmerwald1915]

the slaves are still alive and working in Gobbotopia
Are they? We certainly haven't seen them. We've seen a dozen humans in work gangs, plus a hundred or so more in prison, all of whom were freed and subsequently slaughtered. But the population of Azure City the city was something like 265,000 people before the war (there were another 265,000 or so in the outlying holdings, including settlements, forts, and the rural areas in between), and they couldn't possibly have all gotten out on boats. They wouldn't have fit. Even the Dunkirk evacuation fleet wasn't able to evacuate more than 40,000 people in any single day, and they had more ships, bigger ships, the ability to reuse ships transiting back and forth, and many more days to both prepare and to work (the Dunkirk fleet, which, like the Azure City fleet, was "hastily assembled," managed less than 10,000 on its first day). They couldn't have fled by land, there were two big armies in the way. We're told the Azurites suffered 10,000 casualties from the war, and can assume that about 40,000 managed to get on the fleet. That leaves over 200,000 people in the city itself, and more than that in the outlying lands.

The hobgoblins mobilized ninety percent of their population to take Azure City. That force represented 30,000 troops at the beginning of the battle, and 20,000 troops at the end. If all those who remained behind moved to Azure City (which wouldn't make a heck of a lot of sense), that would represent a hobgoblin population of about 23,000. There doesn't seem to have been that much large-scale immigration to Gobbotopia in the time between the taking of Azure city and the last time we saw it. While there is some diversity in the current, shall we say, non-enslaved population that wasn't there during the battle, hobgoblins still predominate in a massive way, indicating that most of the population are battle veterans.

But we keep seeing crowds and scads of hobgoblins, and virtually no humans, despite the latter easily being able to outnumber the former by ten to one. The message the story is sending us is that there can't be more than a few thousand humans left in the city. Again, before the battle, they couldn't have gotten out by sea, and they couldn't have gotten out by land. That means they had to have been got rid of afterwords. Ergo, the hobgoblins had to have either slaughtered many, many more after the battle, or they had to have moved virtually all of them into the countryside to labor in the fields. Either way, they're not in the city anymore.


I'm hoping for a truce whereby the goblins give up all their slaves (and ban slavery in their territories) in exchange for the Azurites formally ceding Azure City and its environs.
Gobbotopia can't abide equal citizenship for humans for the demographic reasons cited above, especially if Redcloak merely ejected the unevacuated Azurites from the city instead of killing most of them. Manumission without equal citizenship doesn't actually amount to much.

Also, what "environs" do you mean? Azurite territory extended along two major axes: east from Azure City to Blueriver Fort, and south from Azure City to Robinsegg. The hobgoblin campaign we were shown in War and XPs conquered everything from Blueriver to Azure City, but did not detour to Robinsegg. Do you think it was conquered offpanel? If it was not, should Gobbotopia get to keep it?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Let's not forget Xykon's penchant for recreational slaughter, which gets really bad when he's bored. Like he was in most of DStP. Likely much of the former population has been converted to free-roaming undead.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Analysis

Fair enough. I can't really argue with that sort of evidence until we see some humans in Gobbotopia again.

[Keltest]

Fair enough. I can't really argue with that sort of evidence until we see some humans in Gobbotopia again.

Maybe theyre being used on farms outside the city? Even with trade from other states and pillage from Azure City, a city full of nothing but hobgoblin soldiers is not going to be able to support itself for very long at all. But Azure City wasn't exclusively reliant on trade to survive, so it makes sense that they have farms somewhere, in addition to their fishing fleet.

[zimmerwald1915]

But Azure City wasn't exclusively reliant on trade to survive, so it makes sense that they have farms somewhere, in addition to their fishing fleet.
According to Redcloak, however, Gobbotopia is highly reliant on trade to survive. Make of that what you will.

[Keltest]

According to Redcloak, however, Gobbotopia is highly reliant on trade to survive. Make of that what you will.

Well of course it is. Besides the fact that the city is still a port city and therefore partly based on the sea, a nation of hobgoblins aren't going to go over well without something to offer the world that isn't death. I was just suggesting a plausible non-city location for the slaves.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Maybe theyre being used on farms outside the city? Even with trade from other states and pillage from Azure City, a city full of nothing but hobgoblin soldiers is not going to be able to support itself for very long at all. But Azure City wasn't exclusively reliant on trade to survive, so it makes sense that they have farms somewhere, in addition to their fishing fleet.

They can be on farms somewhere, but I think Zimmerwald was responding directly to my point about them being in Gobbotopia. Outside of the city, on the farms, they'd probably he safe from the Snarl, unless we've reached the point where nowhere is safe, in which case it probably doesn't matter since everything will be bleak at that point.

[brian 333]

What does Gobbotopia have to offer as trade, though? Loot and plunder? Sure, Azure City was full of it, but why sell off your assets when you have another asset that is depreciating over time, before its value tanks and the expense to maintain it eats away at your loot and plunder? The slave market is always looking for new materials, and a few hundred thousand human slaves would be a way to eliminate depreciating assets in favor of needed commodities and good old currency.

And that's why there are so few humans left.

Those 30k hobgoblins don't need human slaves to tend their fields, they were being fed by their own people already. With open trade routes back to their homeland, (they marched the ground flat getting to Azure City,) and good loot to trade, their own suppliers can feed them and supply whatever arms and equipment they need. Outside trade is only needed if growth is desired.

[mouser9169]

I wouldn't be surprised no matter how it goes, including if it isn't mentioned again. The story is about the Order of the Stick, not about every NPC they come across. I think the Azurites have played their part in the story - they now have a stable "homeland", the goblins now have a nation. That's a pretty good resolution right there.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I like the idea that the Snarl destroys the city, and no one gets it.

[mouser9169]

I like the idea that the Snarl destroys the city, and no one gets it.

We know that Jirix has "many battles" left to fight, so I don't think Gobbotopia is going anywhere anytime soon.

[ti'esar]

We know that Jirix has "many battles" left to fight, so I don't think Gobbotopia is going anywhere anytime soon.

That's assuming both that the Dark One was speaking prophetically rather than in a more general sense, and that the gods can predict the actions of the Snarl.

[LadyEowyn]

I hope Gobbotopia survives and the Azurites build a new home in the place where Vaarsuvius brought them. The goblins need a home, and thus far (following the conquest of Azure City) they've had peaceful trading relations with their neighbours. All the scenes we've had of Gobbotopia indicate that the greater part of their citizens are happy with peace and statehood and not raring for a fight.

If I had to hypothesize, I'd say there are two main options:

1) Gobbotopia is destroyed by the Snarl, and Redcloak gets to reflect on his Plan having destroyed an actual successful goblin city. This would be tragic and extremely consonant with Redcloak's storyline so far.

2) Gobbotopia survives as a vindication of the idea that goblins need a place where they can live in security. The supporting points in favour of this are:

- The Azurites previously slaughtered the goblins, and we have the author's word that they were very wrong to do so and that the loss of Azure City was somewhat karmic in that regard.

- The Resistance was heavily bigoted against even potentially-helpful goblins, and were also brutally destroyed.

- Gobbotopia is currently looking like a thriving city that's no worse than many other cities and realms (e.g.: most of the Western Continent) and has trading relationships with cities of other species, indicating that it is capable of existing without making war on its neighbours.

- Thus, its survival would support the comic's argument that it's wrong to judge people simply based on their species, and the implicit idea present throughout the comic that goblins have had a raw deal and deserve better.

If I had to lay odds, I'd say about 60-40 between options 1 and 2.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That's assuming both that the Dark One was speaking prophetically rather than in a more general sense, and that the gods can predict the actions of the Snarl.

I think that it's unlikely the gods are all that prescient where the Snarl is concerned, of even if the majority of them are very prescient in general.

[ti'esar]

I think that it's unlikely the gods are all that prescient where the Snarl is concerned, of even if the majority of them are very prescient in general.

Yes, that's my point; I'm skeptical that the Dark One's comments about Jirix having many battles still to fight in the realm of politics can be taken as a reliable prophecy that Gobbotopia won't be consumed by the Snarl.

Not saying it will be either, just that I don't think that scene is proof against it.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yes, that's my point; I'm skeptical that the Dark One's comments about Jirix having many battles still to fight in the realm of politics can be taken as a reliable prophecy that Gobbotopia won't be consumed by the Snarl.

Not saying it will be either, just that I don't think that scene is proof against it.
I understand; I was trying to say that was how I viewed things as well.

[Belsirk]

Do not forget that the island where the Azurite are right now is from the elves, and more important, is THEIR originally land. The elves were not solely against the idea fighting Xykon without information, but neither give to the azurites the island coordinates (Even after they were having fighting monsters seas by more than half year).

So, probably the elves are being good folk with their old and exiled allies, but they do not support the idea that a new "human" city born on their old lands. So, probably the azurites will need to fight by getting back their original lands.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Except it wasn't part of the Elven homeland. It was a colony they decided to abandon decades ago (when Vaarsuvius was a child). I doubt they care who lives there. Better humans than the humanoids who took over ownership would be their reaction if they thought about it.

[Reboot]

Except it wasn't part of the Elven homeland. It was a colony they decided to abandon decades ago (when Vaarsuvius was a child). I doubt they care who lives there. Better humans than the humanoids who took over ownership would be their reaction if they thought about it.
Sure about that? People aren't always nice to squatters, even if the squatters are homeless and the place is some second home they weren't using or likely to be using anyway.

[Or to put it another way, the toy a spoiled child wants most is the one someone else is using...]

At best, I expect the Azurites have been clearly informed they get to live there at the elves' sufferance.

[hopeful1212]

I don't think it's silly to believe that the elves would be OK with a permanent settlement by the Azurites. They're allies and the elves even sent people to help with the Azurites' resistance. If there's any strain on their alliance, we haven't seen it yet. Maybe that will change, but for now I'd assume they're fine with it.

[mouser9169]

Sure about that? People aren't always nice to squatters, even if the squatters are homeless and the place is some second home they weren't using or likely to be using anyway.

[Or to put it another way, the toy a spoiled child wants most is the one someone else is using...]

At best, I expect the Azurites have been clearly informed they get to live there at the elves' sufferance.

The elves might not even know the Azurites are there.

A colony is never part of the homeland (if it were it would cease to be a colony). The elves had a use for the land once. That use disappeared so they abandoned it. The don't care about this particular set of ruins any more than any other 'unclaimed' ruins in the world. The Azurites are probably in a much more desperate position of needing trade than even Gobbotopia.

As for the Snarl 'unmaking' Gobbotopia, I don't see that happening. First, because it wouldn't be tragic. The goblins would no longer be there in any sense of the word, so they haven't lost anything - they simply no longer exist. Redcloak has already told us he understands that to be a likely outcome of the plan, anyway.

[ti'esar]

As for the Snarl 'unmaking' Gobbotopia, I don't see that happening. First, because it wouldn't be tragic. The goblins would no longer be there in any sense of the word, so they haven't lost anything - they simply no longer exist. Redcloak has already told us he understands that to be a likely outcome of the plan, anyway.

Yes, but Redcloak is an obsessed lunatic. I strongly suspect that most of the goblins wouldn't be so blithe about considering that an option.

I'm also inclined to doubt your reasoning for why the goblins being erased from existence wouldn't be a bad thing.

[factotum]

The elves might not even know the Azurites are there.

Hinjo was in contact with the Elves to give them Haley's news from Azure City, and that was after they'd set up shop on the island--I think it's reasonably certain he would also have informed the Elves where he was at the time! The Elves are allies of the Azurites, and so I think they've probably granted them this island freely since they weren't using it themselves. Given it's only a day's sailing from Sandsedge, which is a long way south of Elven territory, I would assume the Elves abandoned it as the supply lines back to the homeland were too long.

Although, of course, that does beg the question of why one of the battling southern empires didn't grab such a prime piece of territory as soon as it became available!

[Onyavar]

... The Elves are allies of the Azurites, and so I think they've probably granted them this island freely since they weren't using it themselves. Given it's only a day's sailing from Sandsedge, which is a long way south of Elven territory, I would assume the Elves abandoned it as the supply lines back to the homeland were too long.

Although, of course, that does beg the question of why one of the battling southern empires didn't grab such a prime piece of territory as soon as it became available!

Yeah, the geography is still a bit unclear to me as well. Maybe because it's in the Elven domain, nobody dared to conquer it. Or nobody even knows it's there, because the elves veiled it somehow. And I guess it's fairly small, too. Also, it's "a few days" from Sandsedge, if memory serves me right.
But I agree that the Elves are likely to grant the Azurites their island. They're long standing partners, only the distance prevented them from closer relations. Which would change once the Azurites have their base on said island. Having an exiled partner take over your otherwise abandoned outpost is sound strategic thinking.
Also, the exiles don't have the numbers to reclaim Gobbotopia. Reconquista would be a long-term project - not this generation.


I hope Gobbotopia survives and the Azurites build a new home in the place where Vaarsuvius brought them. The goblins need a home, and thus far (following the conquest of Azure City) they've had peaceful trading relations with their neighbours. All the scenes we've had of Gobbotopia indicate that the greater part of their citizens are happy with peace and statehood and not raring for a fight.
[...]

What you said. Redcloak wants a fair starting chance for his people. Gobbotopia is that. Here's hoping that nobody disturbs the experiment - but I don't care much. If they fail for themselves, they simply deserved it.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Although, of course, that does beg the question of why one of the battling southern empires didn't grab such a prime piece of territory as soon as it became available!

It could be that they were still worried about the Elves. Borders in the desert are constantly shifting, so it could be that some empire did grab it, but then lost it or collapsed.

[Morty]

I consider it all but certain that there will be some resolution. Of course, the current status quo is very unlikely to continue. Still, the thought of the goblinoids keeping what they took by bloody conquest doesn't seem to fit the message of the comic. The ever-escalating cycle of revenge needs to be broken, but it probably won't be by one side winning and the other being too beaten and bloodied to retaliate. What the conflict really needs to end peacefully, and what I believe we will see sooner or later, is a goblin like Right-Eye, but with more vision, who can propose a real alternative to Redcloak's Plan. Right-Eye had the right idea, but he was also primarily concerned about simply living in peace with his family and the fruits of his labour. What the goblins really need is someone who believes in a peaceful resolution as much as Redcloak believes in blackmailing the gods and taking revenge for his family.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Although, of course, that does beg the question of why one of the battling southern empires didn't grab such a prime piece of territory as soon as it became available!

How are they supposed to get to it without a basketful of powerful casters? One thing we didn't see in Book 5 was large forests filled with prime ship-building timber. For that matter, I can't remember if there were any ports besides Sandsedge.

[factotum]

There would be no point Sandsedge even having a port if there were not both other ports for it to trade with, and ships to sail between the two. It's way too far from the Eastern Continent for there to be frequent traffic between the two.

As for the distance between the island and Sandsedge, I confess I recall it being mentioned as being a day's journey somewhere, but I can't find it now. Strip #672 does show the ship leaving the island, and by the end (without any obvious indication a lot of time has passed) it's already approaching a coastline; however, the map in #698 suggests that could be the coastline of the Empire of Tears, and the ship would have to sail a long way westward to get to Sandsedge from there. (This is assuming the Elven island is the largish one at the bottom right of the map, which seems a reasonable assumption).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

There would be no point Sandsedge even having a port if there were not both other ports for it to trade with, and ships to sail between the two. It's way too far from the Eastern Continent for there to be frequent traffic between the two.

As for the distance between the island and Sandsedge, I confess I recall it being mentioned as being a day's journey somewhere, but I can't find it now. Strip #672 does show the ship leaving the island, and by the end (without any obvious indication a lot of time has passed) it's already approaching a coastline; however, the map in #698 suggests that could be the coastline of the Empire of Tears, and the ship would have to sail a long way westward to get to Sandsedge from there. (This is assuming the Elven island is the largish one at the bottom right of the map, which seems a reasonable assumption).

In #678, Blackwing says they were at Vaarsuvius's home two days ago. They left the island the day after that, ergo the journey took one day.

[Emanick]

what I believe we will see sooner or later, is a goblin like Right-Eye, but with more vision

I see what you did there.

[MReav]

At the very least, Goblin Dan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html) is going to do all right.

I think what's going to happen is that the goblins are going to be forced out eventually, but by that point, hydra meat will revolutionize things so the need for raids will radically lessen.

[factotum]

In #678, Blackwing says they were at Vaarsuvius's home two days ago. They left the island the day after that, ergo the journey took one day.

Ah, thank you! I knew I recalled it from somewhere but couldn't figure out where--nice to know I wasn't just making the whole thing up. Although that means that either the Western Continent is extremely small (unlikely) or the island I mentioned in my previous post can't possibly be the Elven one, because you have to cross around half the continent's width to get from that one to Sandsedge.

[Morty]

I see what you did there.

Hah. The pun wasn't actually intended.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ah, thank you! I knew I recalled it from somewhere but couldn't figure out where--nice to know I wasn't just making the whole thing up. Although that means that either the Western Continent is extremely small (unlikely) or the island I mentioned in my previous post can't possibly be the Elven one, because you have to cross around half the continent's width to get from that one to Sandsedge.

Yeah, I guess that does being up an interesting question. Perhaps the island isn't on the map?

[Mike Havran]

Ah, thank you! I knew I recalled it from somewhere but couldn't figure out where--nice to know I wasn't just making the whole thing up. Although that means that either the Western Continent is extremely small (unlikely) or the island I mentioned in my previous post can't possibly be the Elven one, because you have to cross around half the continent's width to get from that one to Sandsedge.

I think the island is fairly large, but not large enough to be put on the big-scale map. If it was the large island on the map, the Order would probably decide to go to the Free City of Doom instead of Sandsedge.

[zimmerwald1915]

I think the island is fairly large, but not large enough to be put on the big-scale map. If it was the large island on the map, the Order would probably decide to go to the Free City of Doom instead of Sandsedge.
Speaking of Doom, Shoulder Pad Guy called it a "port city" when convincing the Weeping King to attack it. So there are ports on the Western Continent besides Sandsedge.

[Keltest]

Speaking of Doom, Shoulder Pad Guy called it a "port city" when convincing the Weeping King to attack it. So there are ports on the Western Continent besides Sandsedge.

Rogar does have a point however. There is a definite lack of proper ship-building materials, so the non-elven western civilizations are pretty much never going to have any sort of significant naval presence unless they buy tons of wood from other powers, which in turn requires that they have something valuable to trade and survive long enough to build the ships properly (which, history tells me, is apparently hard.)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Rogar does have a point however. There is a definite lack of proper ship-building materials, so the non-elven western civilizations are pretty much never going to have any sort of significant naval presence unless they buy tons of wood from other powers, which in turn requires that they have something valuable to trade and survive long enough to build the ships properly (which, history tells me, is apparently hard.)

I doubt any of them are going to have massive navies, but if they have ports they should at least have enough skill with boats to be able to sail to this island.

[Keltest]

I doubt any of them are going to have massive navies, but if they have ports they should at least have enough skill with boats to be able to sail to this island.

Probably, but exploration isn't really going to be their first goal to use their ships for, now is it? They live in a desert, theyre going to see "ooo, seafood!" first, "Ooo, other people's stuff to buy!" second, and "Exploration" possibly not at all, given the incredibly tenuous nature of empires in the Western Continent.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Probably, but exploration isn't really going to be their first goal to use their ships for, now is it? They live in a desert, theyre going to see "ooo, seafood!" first, "Ooo, other people's stuff to buy!" second, and "Exploration" possibly not at all, given the incredibly tenuous nature of empires in the Western Continent.

Fair enough. I don't think any kingdom would really last long enough to hold onto the island anyways, so what you're saying makes sense.

[factotum]

Where has this idea that there is no wood in the southern half of the Western Continent come from? There are parts down there that are clearly not desert--and if wood really was such a precious resource, that would be even *more* reason why one of the warring powers would have taken over a forested island a day's sail off the coast! Also, what is the furniture made of if not wood? The tables in the inn in #710, for example, or Malack's chairs in #737?

[Keltest]

Where has this idea that there is no wood in the southern half of the Western Continent come from? There are parts down there that are clearly not desert--and if wood really was such a precious resource, that would be even *more* reason why one of the warring powers would have taken over a forested island a day's sail off the coast! Also, what is the furniture made of if not wood? The tables in the inn in #710, for example, or Malack's chairs in #737?

They can easily have imported furniture pre-made, and while you are correct that the entire continent isn't desert, ships would not be something that they would be especially quick to use their lumber on. If they aren't importing furniture that means theyre making it themselves, I assume the supports for the many tents we see are made of wood, the fletchers are going to consume a lot of wood making arrows and bolts for the various armies that are cropping up all the time, and these are just the things that I can think of off the top of my head. Without any experience I cant even touch the topic of appropriate types of wood to make ships out of, or whether the more permanent structures would consume any wood in their construction.

[zimmerwald1915]

Where has this idea that there is no wood in the southern half of the Western Continent come from? There are parts down there that are clearly not desert--and if wood really was such a precious resource, that would be even *more* reason why one of the warring powers would have taken over a forested island a day's sail off the coast! Also, what is the furniture made of if not wood? The tables in the inn in #710, for example, or Malack's chairs in #737?
In terms of shipbuilding, there's wood, and then there's wood. Masts in particular require trunks that are springy enough to bend in the wind rather than crack, but still tall and strong enough to carry a full load of sail. Ancient Mediterranean peoples used cedar; early modern and modern northern Europeans used pine. I don't know enough to comment on Chinese or south Asian shipbuilding, so I won't, but you get the gist. Even if you're eschewing sail power and opting for something more like an oar-powered galley (which the Westerners with their slave economy would probably adopt more readily anyway) a wooden ship still needs a great deal of pitch, flax, and hemp in addition to whatever you're building the hull out of (oak is popular). Plus, oar-powered galleys aren't well-suited to open ocean travel, and would be much more useful for littoral and coastal shipping - for example, between Sandsedge and Doom, or between Doom and Bleedingham - than to shipping between, say, Sandsedge and Cliffport.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Ships require hardwoods. Large hardwoods at that. Oak is the best for this (one of the reasons for England's naval dominance is that they had large forests of old oak, which they largely logged off for the mercantile interests), but walnut and others can serve. For masts you need something a bit springier, so pine is often used (North Carolina's prime export for decades was ~100 foot pine trees).

None of this will grow in a desert. Too much wind, not enough water. What you do get in a desert is Manzanita, Acacia, Joshua Trees, Juniper, Scrub Cedar, Mesquite and others. Small, stunted, tough. Good for little stuff like furniture, not so good for larger items. Most buildings will be of earthen construction.

Also, oceanic trade isn't going to be a big business in the Western Continent's political quagmire. It takes a lot of money to build a ship, more to lade it and crew it. If you have that, you probably left to spend it in more congenial circumstances. Not to mention that the government that was in office when you started building the ship would've been replaced twice over by the time the ship was finished.

Note that all of this is irrelevant if you don't have a lot of experienced carpenters and shipwrights to do the work.

Trade also has to deal with the protection rackets of all of the different ruling bodies. Basically, the only things that are going to move are luxury goods, which have enough of a profit margin to be worth the effort.

Yes, I have a minor in history.

[zimmerwald1915]

Most buildings will be of earthen construction.
Scratch "will be," read the comic. They are. Sandsedge is a tent city, Bleedingham looks like stone for the palace and mud-brick for everyone else.


Yes, I have a minor in history.
Major in history, minor in ninjutsu :smalltongue:

[factotum]

For masts you need something a bit springier, so pine is often used

The palm tree in #682 sure looked nice and springy... :smallsmile: (This is a joke--no idea if you could actually use a palm for this purpose).

If you're only doing local trading along the coast you don't necessarily need masts--galleys would be a perfect option (especially given the general attitude to slavery on the Western Continent). In any case, it's already been pointed out that the Free City of Doom has been described, in-comic, as a "port city", and where there are ports there are ships, even if the darned things are made from giant insect carapaces and use the jet-like screams of tortured air elementals as propulsion!

[Keltest]

The palm tree in #682 sure looked nice and springy... :smallsmile: (This is a joke--no idea if you could actually use a palm for this purpose).

If you're only doing local trading along the coast you don't necessarily need masts--galleys would be a perfect option (especially given the general attitude to slavery on the Western Continent). In any case, it's already been pointed out that the Free City of Doom has been described, in-comic, as a "port city", and where there are ports there are ships, even if the darned things are made from giant insect carapaces and use the jet-like screams of tortured air elementals as propulsion!

While that's not implausible, I think youre neglecting to account for the idea that maybe the coastal cities just want other people to be able to dock there? There may be ships, but they aren't necessarily the FCoD's ships. After all, its if youre going to trade with people, why wouldn't you make it convenient for them?

[brian 333]

Ships can be built anywhere. The real question is, who crews them? Pirates, smugglers, and mercenaries will flock to a place like the Western continent, both because of the chaotic political climate, and because of the absence of competition in their respective trades.

Smugglers don't have to worry about naval blockades.
Pirates don't have to worry about being hunted down by the local navies.
Mercenaries have many opportunities to take hire to hunt down smugglers and pirates.
Smugglers think they can outsmart pirates and mercenaries.
Pirates think they can outfight smugglers and out-run mercenaries.
Mercenaries think they can beat the snot out of anybody and take their stuff.
Smugglers don't have to compete with honest merchants who keep prices low.
Pirates can pull into any port for repairs and replenishment.
Mercenaries don't have to compete with local navies for work.

So, Free Enterprise for all in the West; you can be as successful as your brains and your luck allow you to be without kow-towing to some bureaucrat whose cousin's mother's uncle got him a job he's not qualified to do.

[Keltest]

Ships can be built anywhere.

Just for clarity, you mean this in the "It doesn't matter where they were built, so long as theyre in the west now." sense, not the "Even a desert can produce ship-worthy materials." sense, correct?

[Porthos]

I think we might be, ahem, missing the forest for the trees here. :smallamused:

First off, the island is a "few dozen kilometers" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html) off of the coast of the Western Continent. So it's easily within sail of any major power.

HOWEVER, until very recently it belonged to the elves. I get the sense that none of the powers in the Waring Kingdoms wanted to tango with the elves. So capturing the island would have meant going to war with them. Or at least risk pissing them off. That would explain why no one went and took it in the past.

Depending on just how long ago the elves abandoned it, it simply could be that no one powerful enough has had the opportunity to go in and scope it out.

[zimmerwald1915]

HOWEVER, until very recently it belonged to the elves. I get the sense that none of the powers in the Waring Kingdoms wanted to tango with the elves. So capturing the island would have meant going to war with them. Or at least risk pissing them off.
Their loss, really. The elves are a paper tiger.

[ti'esar]

...How the hells did this thread become a discussion about the availability of lumber on the Western Continent, anyway?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

...How the hells did this thread become a discussion about the availability of lumber on the Western Continent, anyway?

We were talking about the island the Azurites were on. We may have gotten a little sidetracked.

[orrion]

The palm tree in #682 sure looked nice and springy... :smallsmile: (This is a joke--no idea if you could actually use a palm for this purpose).

If you're interested.. I'm pretty sure you can't. Mythbusters did an episode where they were trying to fling a corpse over a wall with a tree (the myth was about spreading a sickness from the corpse into a fortified castle). They needed an absurd amount of force to bend back the tree far enough to get a catapult effect, and even then the trees wouldn't bend enough to get near touching the ground nor snap back anywhere near that far. I don't recall that they tested a palm tree, but still. Also, saplings bend further.

I'd cite specifics (tree type, etc), but Netflix went ahead and removed Mythbusters recently because they're idiots.

And now.. back to the other off-topic topic?

[factotum]

While that's not implausible, I think youre neglecting to account for the idea that maybe the coastal cities just want other people to be able to dock there? There may be ships, but they aren't necessarily the FCoD's ships.

See, I don't think trade or journeys between the two major landmasses is that common. Consider: the Azure City refugees visited pretty much all of their allies to try and get help in retaking their home, and yet they never visited their oldest and truest allies, the elves. Why? Because of the ocean in between! I seriously doubt there are regular trade missions between, say, Cliffport and the Free City of Doom.

[Cavenskull]

What if Gobbotopia gets largely ignored by the Azurites due to the presence of a continent full of corrupt peoples that need to be enlightened, especially in the event that nameless rulers (like Elan's father, for instance) end up leaving a power vacuum behind?

[Morty]

...How the hells did this thread become a discussion about the availability of lumber on the Western Continent, anyway?

Sounds like a usual nitpick-induced topic drift. I'm fairly sure everyone here has put more thought to that topic than the Giant ever has.

[Forikroder]

What if Gobbotopia gets largely ignored by the Azurites due to the presence of a continent full of corrupt peoples that need to be enlightened, especially in the event that nameless rulers (like Elan's father, for instance) end up leaving a power vacuum behind?

ya im sure theyd totally put taking back there homes on hold in order to try to spread peace in a desert


See, I don't think trade or journeys between the two major landmasses is that common. Consider: the Azure City refugees visited pretty much all of their allies to try and get help in retaking their home, and yet they never visited their oldest and truest allies, the elves. Why? Because of the ocean in between! I seriously doubt there are regular trade missions between, say, Cliffport and the Free City of Doom.

or because the elves were already debating wether to help and hadnt come to a decision yet?

[brian 333]

Just for clarity, you mean this in the "It doesn't matter where they were built, so long as theyre in the west now." sense, not the "Even a desert can produce ship-worthy materials." sense, correct?

I mean both. Persia was historically a naval power in the Red Sea and Indian Ocean, as well as, for a time, in the Mediterranean Sea. There is a great big desert in the middle of that empire.

And the same thing goes for Gobbotopia. If there is money to be made, ships will come to make it even if local shipbuilding enterprises are non-existent. Mobility is a key component of maritime units. We should also see airships and even the occasional gnomish submarine attempting to move Gobbotopia's surplus to markets where there is demand, and vice versa. Most smugglers don't care who sells or buys their goods, so long as the price is right.

I also rather expect these smugglers to be selling information to the Azurites about what is going on in their former homeland. If nothing else, this will keep their emotional wounds from healing.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Persia at the time was somewhat forested--one of their main trade articles to Mesopotamia was wood. Plus, the cedars of Lebanon, Phrygia, the Phoenicians, etc.

The whole region is pretty thoroughly deforested compared to what it used to be, but that's true of anywhere humans and agriculture have spread, I'm afraid.

[Mike Havran]

See, I don't think trade or journeys between the two major landmasses is that common. Consider: the Azure City refugees visited pretty much all of their allies to try and get help in retaking their home, and yet they never visited their oldest and truest allies, the elves. Why? Because of the ocean in between! I seriously doubt there are regular trade missions between, say, Cliffport and the Free City of Doom.

Cliffport wages a "long-standing trade war" against the Elves. There has to be a pretty big amount of trade to influence Cliffport's diplomacy.