[PF] Problem with small party

[Krazzman]

Hello again.

I recently started a new campaign but after the first encounter with 10 zombies 4 zombified apes and a ghul. I think my group is in trouble.

I have 3 players. One plays a Crossbow Oradin(Oracle 2/Paladin 2)//Ranger (favourite enemy being magical beasts).
The other one is a Tiefling Eldritch Scion (casting via int) // slayer. With two weapon fighting and so on.
My wife built a orcish descended aasimar shaman of heaven's//quingong hungry ghost monk.

Player one was advised by me (sent him a link to the oradin as he wanted to be a healer).
The Tiefling was basically built by me and I might have gone too far. Player wanted a combat viable character that can stealth like a boss and minor magic to have some tricks.
My wife just got a list of feats that might be interesting.

I assumed that they all would be quite sturdy but the monk nearly died in that encounter.
Due to some changes the monk now has one feat left to take.

Any recommendations as to what I can advise her to do? Since she sees herself forced to do a tank role.

Builds follow later if needed. Short summary of the monk

Monk:
Feats: Elemental Fist, Dragon Style, Efreeti Style and one free.
Traits: Martial Manuscript, muscle of the society, shadow child, finding your kin.
Equipment: bracers of mighty fists, mule back cords, deathless shirt.

[emeraldstreak]

its too late to be a decent tank but go for crane style

[Greenish]

If the monk's fragility is the problem, they need less "tanking" (however they do it). Having the damage be spread more evenly on the whole party is better for survival than having it all focused on one character.

[Spore]

That's the main problem with (PF) monks. They are frontliners without special abilities to really boost their AC and survivability and use a d8 for their hit points. In addition to that they're incredibly MAD so that constitution suffers even more. It doesn't get better even if you play smart. My 10th level monk has been nearly broken by a simple Glabrezu that even took a turn to cast Chaos Hammer on me. And I had a wizard and a sorcerer as backup both with nearly full spells.

Honestly monks are terrible at most things. Unless your player are fine with basically throwing magical items at your wife you should find some tricks for her monk to work better. And if her character isn't up to speed it's best for her to retire it or to kill her character before his storyline gets too interesting.

[emeraldstreak]

1. Dont tank 3.P with hp. AC is far better. Hp tanking is for other editions.

2. Hate to say it, but [central to the success of the party] Monks are for well-versed optimizers only.

[Krazzman]

Thanks for the input so far.

I think it would be better if I post her complete build now:

Stats: 18 14 14 14 18 14
HP: 44 (4x8 [full HD] + 4 x2 + 4 through Favoured Class).
AC: 19 (10 +2 [Armor] +2 [Dex] +5 [Deflection (Wis+1)]
Saves Fort 6 Ref 6 Will 8 [+2 against Enchantments]
Vision: Darkvision 60 ft.
Resistances: Cold, Acid, Electricity 5, Positive and Negative 10.
Carrying Capacity: <401 Light, <801 Medium, <1201 Heavy, 1200 Lift over Head, 2400 Lift off ground, 6000 Drag or Push. (Effective Strength for CC is 28).
Feats: Eshew Materials, Dragon Style, Elemental Fist and one open. + Punishing Kick instead of Stunning Fist.
Traits: Muscle of the Society, Martial Manuscript, Shadow Child, "Finding your Kin".
Ki Power: Scorching Ray
Shaman Spirit:
Heavens:
Ability: Stardust
Hexes: Healing and Guiding Star
Spell Points 25
Highest Spell Level: 2nd

Equipment:
Magical Shirt (+2 AC) with the Deathless Enchantment (Energy Resistance 10 Positive and Negative, 25% Chance to ignore neg level) (1650 GP)
Mule Back Cords (+8 Str for Carrying Capacity) (1000 GP)
Bracers of Mighty Fists (1000 GP)
Leaves her with roughly 2300 GP left over.

Stuff I already changed about monks:
Gave them +2 Bonus Skill points per level.


We talked a bit and she really likes Druid (probably Ape Shaman) as she knows their Spell list a bit better. I told her IF she wants to switch out Shaman we can talk about a slightly changed Empyreal Bloodline Sorcerer or a changed or new Domain for an Ape Shaman (Druid). She liked Crane style but also the new "Pummeling Style".

Any further recommendations? She's allowed to change any feat and or Class.

[Spore]

So a build involving the Monk would be Monk 1 /Ecclesitheurge x (new archetype, basically a cleric with a few weapons, no armor proficiencies and powerful casting). In her case I'd go for a nature-themed god/domains. She could also see into Brawler (since it's basically a good version of monk) and switch her playstyle on a case-to-case basis using martial flexibility.

Ape Shaman is pretty good at early levels but suffers from the delayed shaping. Also idk if shaping even is her thing fluffwise. I would go for a Nature Fang (also advanced class guide) to get something other than wildshape. She can spend her new slayer talents to get all the combat feats she needs: With your permission ofc but I don't see how this is detrimental since she willingly gives up wildshaping for it. Just make up an unarmed combat style tree for rangers.

But to be honest Pathfinder doesn't support multiclassing all that well so the main reason your magus works and the others don't is the high amount of crossclassing. You should also give the Paladin a possiblity to straighten his class choices. Where in 3.5 multiclassing was encouraged and often times led to ludicrous power even getting a fitting prestige class out of a single class build hampers your abilities in Pathfinder.

[Krazzman]

So a build involving the Monk would be Monk 1 /Ecclesitheurge x (new archetype, basically a cleric with a few weapons, no armor proficiencies and powerful casting). In her case I'd go for a nature-themed god/domains. She could also see into Brawler (since it's basically a good version of monk) and switch her playstyle on a case-to-case basis using martial flexibility.

Ape Shaman is pretty good at early levels but suffers from the delayed shaping. Also idk if shaping even is her thing fluffwise. I would go for a Nature Fang (also advanced class guide) to get something other than wildshape. She can spend her new slayer talents to get all the combat feats she needs: With your permission ofc but I don't see how this is detrimental since she willingly gives up wildshaping for it. Just make up an unarmed combat style tree for rangers.


We did not really took a look at Brawler since the opinion I got was that it was even WORSE than monk.
About Ape Shaman... she'll look into Shaman (ACG) and Ape Shaman as well as Nature Fang.


But to be honest Pathfinder doesn't support multiclassing all that well so the main reason your magus works and the others don't is the high amount of crossclassing. You should also give the Paladin a possiblity to straighten his class choices. Where in 3.5 multiclassing was encouraged and often times led to ludicrous power even getting a fitting prestige class out of a single class build hampers your abilities in Pathfinder.

The only one that is multiclassed is the Oradin. It's a Gestalt campaign (due to having only 3 players) and well the Oradin has Oracle 2/Paladin 2// Ranger 4, the Magus is Eldritch Scion//Slayer and my wife was a Shaman//Quingong Hungry Ghost Monk.
What really made it a problem is that I gave pointers to the oradin, built the magus and only gave advice to my wife.

[Spore]

Ooooooh, I missed gestalt. Now suddenly most of your posts make sense. :smallwink: Brawler gives full BAB, enough maneuvers to keep melee brutes from shreddering you and a d10. You still gain all good saves, unarmed strike progression and even fighter feats on top of that. And you don't need to buff yourself with expensive Ki when you have a whole array of buff spells.

Secondly if you want her to shine just advise her spell choices and give her time to buff herself. Barkskin, False Life, Magic Weapon, Bull's Strength and other spells buff her damage, her maneuvers and her survivability. Then advise the rest of her spells to be control (Entangle, Darkness [hoping the ranger has Darkvision], Stinking Cloud).

As far as her hexes are considered I don't see a particular theme. How set is she on her spirit?

[Krazzman]

Ooooooh, I missed gestalt. Now suddenly most of your posts make sense. :smallwink: Brawler gives full BAB, enough maneuvers to keep melee brutes from shreddering you and a d10. You still gain all good saves, unarmed strike progression and even fighter feats on top of that. And you don't need to buff yourself with expensive Ki when you have a whole array of buff spells.

Secondly if you want her to shine just advise her spell choices and give her time to buff herself. Barkskin, False Life, Magic Weapon, Bull's Strength and other spells buff her damage, her maneuvers and her survivability. Then advise the rest of her spells to be control (Entangle, Darkness [hoping the ranger has Darkvision], Stinking Cloud).

Yeah, should have made that clearer. Also looks REALLY awesome.


As far as her hexes are considered I don't see a particular theme. How set is she on her spirit?

Heavens was the spirit she liked the most (along with Wind) but the "Stars" theme should stay afaik. We are thinking about either going Ape Shaman Druid (or Nature Fang) or staying with shaman at the moment.

Edit:
She now is a brawler//nature fang druid.
We need to home brew a domain of stars/heaven's and the Ranger style.

[Krazzman]

Another problem came up.
The oradin is quite weak at the moment but still has his rebuild open but is satisfied.

My wife now plays a brawler with some changes (Ki and Ki powers) gestalted with Nature Fang Druid (feats are: crane style. Eshew materials. Bleeding strike. Whirlwind attack) and likes it.

But the magus... I think after seeing him play I will revert my changes to weapon finesse and split the damage part of it into a new feat. Also taking his two weapon fighting away as it should not work with spell combat.
That should deal with some of the problems.

Any further advice or idea of how to handle this?