Introducing scenery without making everything a painful lootfest?

[WarKitty]

So I've been steadily working on having more and more scenery in games. However there is one thing I explicitly do not want to do. I do not want to go through figuring out cost, appraising, and selling ever minor thing, especially when I already gave the party plenty of gold. Let's figure this is a high enough level party to have access to bags of holding, and a high magic world.

How do you spice up the scenery without the party deciding they need to chip every magical light out of the wall to sell?

[TheThan]

Make magical lights common enough that they’re not worth selling.
Additionally you could simply tell them that nobody in town is interested in those tapestries you took from that dungeon. Then the local constable shows asking about how you got those expensive tapestries to begin with.

Or let them flood the market with gold and magic items and watch it crash. Now all that gold is worthless.

Now enemies are being equipped with the same magic gear that the party just sold in town, after all there’s so much of it that it’s cheap and easy to get thanks to the adventurers.

“the farmer busts out his +5 holy avenger and cuts you in half when you try to intimidate him”.
“how did the farmer get a +5 holy avenger?, he’s super poor”
“You sold so much crap in town that the cost of magic items tanked. Now everyone’s buying them”.

[WarKitty]

The main trouble I've had is that if they don't recognize it, it is potentially valuable and must be taken. So the magical lights were just a refluffed everburning torch. So instead of looking torchlike they were glass globes with lights inside them. Really not worth much but that party operated on let's take it all and have it appraised later.

[TheThan]

Well if they’re operating on that principle. then there’s simply not much you can do to discourage them from picking places clean. You could simply not put anything of potential value in there, but that sounds like the exact opposite of what you’re looking to do.

I’d tell them that you’ll call out anything that looks valuable enough to bother taking.

[VoxRationis]

If they're going to take everything in the dungeon, thoroughly explore the logistics of such a thing, down to weight, where everything's going to fit (even a Bag of Holding has a volume limit), the time involved in taking all of these things, and the difficulties of selling the necromancer's light fixtures to the nearby village of elves who already have all the material wealth their small, stable population will need for the next few hundred years.
They'll probably get the hint and move on to actually questing. Otherwise, they obviously wanted to play a different game entirely.

[BeerMug Paladin]

"Eons ago, a mad god of illusion was slaughtered in the forest over there."

"Wow! So, does that mean there's some evil artifact over there or something, random stranger who had no reason to interject in our completely unrelated conversation?"

"Not really. Just if you go over there, everything will look epic awesome but you won't be able to touch any of it."

The neat scenery could be relatively mundane but just look cool. Like a waterfall in the shape of a semicircle in the final clearing of a dungeon. Or a volcanic eruption close by spewing lava. Or exotic plants which are widely known to have no useful application (epic-looking weeds!).

[Slipperychicken]

The DMG MM recommends you to cheat the party out of loot by saying it can't be recovered or is in poor condition.

You could just say that the magic wall-lights are only worth scrap value because they, much like RL lights, are part of a bigger system which is built into the wall and ceiling. And also, they're probably deep into their useful life, with standard wear-and-tear having diminished their market value.

[WarKitty]

The DMG recommends you to cheat the party out of loot by saying it can't be recovered

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

Have they ever actually tried that?

[Slipperychicken]

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

Have they ever actually tried that?

Excuse me, I meant it was in the Monster Manual.

And yeah, it says on page 11 that "you decide how much of a monster's equipment is recoverable after the creature is slain and whether any of that equipment is still usable. A battered suit of armor made for a monster is rarely usable for someone else, for instance".

I presume this logic extends to other forms of loot as well. The idea irks me somewhat.

[WarKitty]

Excuse me, I meant it was in the Monster Manual.

And yeah, it says on page 11 that "you decide how much of a monster's equipment is recoverable after the creature is slain and whether any of that equipment is still usable. A battered suit of armor made for a monster is rarely usable for someone else, for instance".

I presume this logic extends to other forms of loot as well. The idea irks me somewhat.

Ah. I was just thinking of the typical player response to making things difficult to access. My experience with players is that most will take difficulty to obtain as a direct correlation to value, and thus the harder it is to get something off the wall and into your bag of holding the more convinced they will be that they're looking at superawesometreasure. Even if the challenge is just "they're bolted to the wall, how on earth do you plan on getting them out?"

[Coidzor]

You could just handwave their salvaging operations and just say that they get some amount of GP equal to whatever would be appropriate to cover for the treasureless encounters they have in the area/next while/previous while, I suppose, though that depends upon what sort of valuable scenery you're giving them access to as opposed to neat-looking but worthless/undefined value scenery.

If it becomes part of their unstated SOP rather than a puzzle mini-game, then they'll spend less time thinking about it over time.

[Illogictree]

You could just handwave their salvaging operations and just say that they get some amount of GP equal to whatever would be appropriate to cover for the treasureless encounters they have in the area/next while/previous while, I suppose, though that depends upon what sort of valuable scenery you're giving them access to as opposed to neat-looking but worthless/undefined value scenery.

If it becomes part of their unstated SOP rather than a puzzle mini-game, then they'll spend less time thinking about it over time.

This is basically what I did with my IRL 1-on-1 Dungeon World game. I'd give a coin value for the loot acquired and sometimes give a description of a particular interesting or memorable item in it - some former adventurer's personal effects from the monster lair, pieces of ancient jewelry and coins from the catacombs beneath the barrows, rare wines and fine cutlery from the abandoned castle, etc. Saved time and logistics hauling it back, getting it appraised, selling it; and also lent flavor to the places explored.

On the other hand, my player wasn't quite the sort to greyhawk everything, so a lot of places went un-looted.

[Jay R]

The lights break when removed, because the light is more fragile than the glue holding it on.

The lights are location-based magic. They worked fine where they were found, but are dead when the party gets back to town.

Make the fluff items bigger than their bags of holding. I recently had a temple lit by floor-to-ceiling shimmering pillars. One of the pillars was broken, and the floor was littered with shards of ordinary crystal, just to show them that they couldn't successfully move them.

There were also two old-school solutions.

One was wandering monsters. You only picked up things that can be gathered quickly when you're down on hit points and there are other encounters coming.

The other was encumbrance limits. Bags of holding were rare. (In old-school games, only characters at very high levels could make an item, and there were no shops, so you had no say in what items you had.)

[Honest Tiefling]

Force them to get the goods to recover this. Did they buy a crowbar? If not, well, too bad. They'll immediately go and buy one, mind you...

Also, make time/stealth an issue. As they are busy trying to run off with the toilet, they hear voices speaking in common...Or even another language such as dwarven, elven, gnomish, etc. This other group is another group of adventurers after the same prize. If they stop to grab everything, these other guys are going to get the good stuff.

If they are busy prying things off of the wall, it would be hard to do so quietly, so maybe they get ambushed when they make a bit too much noise...?

[Eisenheim]

Have you considered just talking to the players about it? This seems like a basic question of play style and the nature and expectations of the game. If you want to handle things like this differently, I would just advise telling the players that you'd like to give flavorful and interesting scenery without things devolving into a looting minigame. This will really only work well if there are not things that they have to figure out are valuable salted through your descriptions.

Essentially I would suggest offering them the OOC deal that you won't make them miss any valuable loot because they didn't catch on that it was supposed to be looted and they'll stop tearing out the fixtures for extra profit. That way everyone can just get back to focusing on the game they enjoy.

[valadil]

You could just handwave their salvaging operations and just say that they get some amount of GP equal to whatever would be appropriate to cover for the treasureless encounters they have in the area/next while/previous while, I suppose, though that depends upon what sort of valuable scenery you're giving them access to as opposed to neat-looking but worthless/undefined value scenery.

If it becomes part of their unstated SOP rather than a puzzle mini-game, then they'll spend less time thinking about it over time.

Came in here for this. A slightly more lenient way to do it would be to say the dungeon is worth 10k. What percentage of dungeon wealth did they remove? Just eyeball it. 5k worth of loot and a couple tapestries, but they missed the secret treasure room and couldn't carry the chandelier is ~75% of the treasure.

[sktarq]

Larger tapestries and carpets even rolled up may not fit in the mouth of the bag of holding. Same with many other bits of furniture etc.

Or make all the loot a fixed value (possibly discounted because the local place to sell it dislikes the style/source) a total fixed value and just discount the gold found by that amount-then handwave the set deconstruction.

[Boci]

Make magical lights common enough that they’re not worth selling.
Additionally you could simply tell them that nobody in town is interested in those tapestries you took from that dungeon. Then the local constable shows asking about how you got those expensive tapestries to begin with.

That was fair up until the last sentence. "We killed an evil guy and took them from his lair. How is this only becoming an issue now?"


Or let them flood the market with gold and magic items and watch it crash. Now all that gold is worthless.

That is not how economies work, its need a co-ordinates (intentionally or not) effort across a far wider scale. The settlement will simply run out of disposable gold and be unable to buy their stuff, they will not break the market.


Now enemies are being equipped with the same magic gear that the party just sold in town, after all there’s so much of it that it’s cheap and easy to get thanks to the adventurers.

“the farmer busts out his +5 holy avenger and cuts you in half when you try to intimidate him”.
“how did the farmer get a +5 holy avenger?, he’s super poor”
“You sold so much crap in town that the cost of magic items tanked. Now everyone’s buying them”.

Again, requires slightly more than a single group to do that. Plus your example is laughable. Commoners aren't proficient with martial weapons, so that "cut you in two" attack is swinging at +2, for 1d8+6 damage. Yes, truly terrifying.

Don't use any of these beyond "the settlement runs out of money and cannot buy anymore magical/luxury items from you".. They are confrontational and contrived, talking to your PCs about the problem is preferable.

[Sith_Happens]

So I've been steadily working on having more and more scenery in games. However there is one thing I explicitly do not want to do. I do not want to go through figuring out cost, appraising, and selling ever minor thing, especially when I already gave the party plenty of gold. Let's figure this is a high enough level party to have access to bags of holding, and a high magic world.

Start giving them less gold. Or rather, if you know they're going to strip down the dungeon for every last bit of vendor trash, take that into account when planning treasures.

[WarKitty]

Start giving them less gold. Or rather, if you know they're going to strip down the dungeon for every last bit of vendor trash, take that into account when planning treasures.

It's not the amount of treasure that annoys me so much as the amount of bookkeeping. I just plain don't want to deal with trying to figure out how much the scenery is worth, especially if the party wants to spend time figuring out what they're really worth, persistently being convinced that they're being cheated if they aren't getting a good enough price, and haggling over every last silver. They've got plenty of gold so there's no need to go grubbing after every last coin.

[Broken Crown]

Seconding the suggestion of wandering monsters. If there is anything in the dungeon that would be curious about the sounds of vigorous and prolonged looting, have it turn up and attack when the characters have their hands full with packing up some awkward and bulky item for transport.

When the players catch on to this, one of two things will happen: Either they will learn to stick to the portable treasure, or they will wait to start looting until after they've killed everything in the dungeon. If they do the latter, and you'd rather they didn't, feel free to pull a Battle of Five Armies on them: They're probably not the only ones interested in that treasure, and if they take too long gathering it up, the others (who could be bandits or monsters or the local government) will show up wanting their share.

This leads to the more general issue of time limits. It won't work for every game, but if there's something (or better still, several things) that the characters have to deal with in a hurry, just emphasize how much time all the searching and looting and appraising is using up. When the players realize that stripping everything of value from the dungeon is going to take the better part of a week, but the BBEG is due to complete his plot-related villainy the day after tomorrow, they'll have to prioritize.

[Beleriphon]

I presume this logic extends to other forms of loot as well. The idea irks me somewhat.

How so, it is essentially designed exactly to prevent crazy behaviour where player collect every dagger a goblin was carrying, nevermind the fact that the dagger is probably just a sharp rock that uses the stats of a dagger. Nevermind the fact that value of an item in the PHB is presumably for a new, or at least well cared for, items of some value to start with.

[Jeff the Green]

Every time you describe an object that you haven't come up with a price for, roll 1d10. On an even, they can loot it and you pick some sort of reasonable figure for the price. On an odd, randomly choose a trap from Tomb of Horrors and apply it to the object. That should cut down on their frivolous looting.

No, of course I'm not serious. Doesn't mean I wouldn't be sorely tempted to do this were I in WarKitty's shoes.

[Broken Crown]

Every time you describe an object that you haven't come up with a price for, roll 1d10. On an even, they can loot it and you pick some sort of reasonable figure for the price. On an odd, randomly choose a trap from Tomb of Horrors and apply it to the object. That should cut down on their frivolous looting.

No, of course I'm not serious. Doesn't mean I wouldn't be sorely tempted to do this were I in WarKitty's shoes.

That's kind of overkill, but statistically, it should solve the problem when you run out of PCs after ten objects or so.

[Sith_Happens]

It's not the amount of treasure that annoys me so much as the amount of bookkeeping. I just plain don't want to deal with trying to figure out how much the scenery is worth, especially if the party wants to spend time figuring out what they're really worth, persistently being convinced that they're being cheated if they aren't getting a good enough price, and haggling over every last silver. They've got plenty of gold so there's no need to go grubbing after every last coin.

Just have a ballpark total for how much everything together is worth. Shouldn't be hard, especially considering that art and decorations are an established treasure type already.

[Jay R]

The original question was about adding scenery without adding loot. The easiest solution is to start adding interesting but unsellable scenery.

The walls of the cave are carved with intricate designs.
The ceiling of the abandoned cathedral is held up with artistic pillars. The archway is an intriguing design.
There are rotting wall hangings that were once beautiful weaving.
The painted wooden ceiling is half-covered with mold.
The doors were held together with highly decorative wrought iron, with patterns almost discernible in through the deep layer of rust.
The large stone statue at the front of the hall has no eyes. the holes show signs of chisels, as if something was pried out long ago.

[DigoDragon]

I'll echo the advice that not every merchant will want to buy all that junk from a dungeon. Unless the inhabitants are good housekeepers (or it's a recently furnished dungeon) a lot of stuff will be dirty and likely a bit damaged.

There is also the legality of it. An adventuring party with tons of loot trying to sell it off will definitely raise a flag from the legit merchants. So the PCs make have to deal with brokers and fences that don't ask questions as much as the merchants do. Which may mean not getting top dollar either. Finally, merchants only have so much cash on hand. Therefore the PCs will need to either barter some of the items as a trade, or go make several stops in big cities to unload everything.

If there's one thing I learned from my last group, is that they were incredibly lazy. They did not want to go through that much hassle to sell loot, and with the above in play, they would only take things that were obviously valuable (like fine china, jewelry, etc.) and when they weren't being greedy butts, I was nicer to them. :smallbiggrin:


One time the party rogue tried stealing a suit of armor from an old castle. I let him take it, but because A) this full plate suit of armor was tailored to a specific person, and B) it had an emblem which marked it as obviously belonging to a house so it was pretty much theft, the rogue was only able to fence it with a thieves guild. He got 1/10 its value for it. Which might still be a lot, but it took him a while to sell it.

Wasn't even magical.

[Broken Crown]

The original question was about adding scenery without adding loot. The easiest solution is to start adding interesting but unsellable scenery.

The walls of the cave are carved with intricate designs.
The ceiling of the abandoned cathedral is held up with artistic pillars. The archway is an intriguing design.
There are rotting wall hangings that were once beautiful weaving.
The painted wooden ceiling is half-covered with mold.
The doors were held together with highly decorative wrought iron, with patterns almost discernible in through the deep layer of rust.
The large stone statue at the front of the hall has no eyes. the holes show signs of chisels, as if something was pried out long ago.

You underestimate the ingenuity and determination of looters. Wrought iron has scrap value. As for those intricate carvings... no doubt you've heard of the Elgin Marbles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elgin_Marbles)?

[WarKitty]

See the trouble is I tend to get the types that are a bit too industrious when it comes with getting rid of loot. No, no, they don't want the overall gold piece value. They want to know exactly how much the decorative shiny they pried up is worth and see if they can bluff and haggle their way into getting 5 extra silver. I have no idea why they even care about that five extra silver.

[valadil]

See the trouble is I tend to get the types that are a bit too industrious when it comes with getting rid of loot. No, no, they don't want the overall gold piece value. They want to know exactly how much the decorative shiny they pried up is worth and see if they can bluff and haggle their way into getting 5 extra silver. I have no idea why they even care about that five extra silver.

To play devil's advocate, why not let them? If they're enthusiastic for this part of the game and you can offer this type of game play, what's keeping you from just running with it?

[WarKitty]

To play devil's advocate, why not let them? If they're enthusiastic for this part of the game and you can offer this type of game play, what's keeping you from just running with it?

The fact that it drives me utterly crazy?

[CantigThimble]

See the trouble is I tend to get the types that are a bit too industrious when it comes with getting rid of loot. No, no, they don't want the overall gold piece value. They want to know exactly how much the decorative shiny they pried up is worth and see if they can bluff and haggle their way into getting 5 extra silver. I have no idea why they even care about that five extra silver.

Is it just a few people or the whole group? If a large portion of them are interested then it might be an interesting thing to take advantage of. You could potentially use it to get them involved in some extra side plots with smugglers or something along those lines. If it's only a few and most of them just want to get back to the main story then try discussing it with them and find out if they're ok just getting flat gold amounts to speed things along. Whatever you do, don't try to just make things in the backround invulnerable or remove that stuff all together, let them have their fun. But you could try putting them under time constraints, or in situations where making noise could be dangerous. Give them the choices but make it a more interesting decision than "I take those" "Ok, you get 2 extra gold back in town." If you want to keep party wealth in check just try reducing the cash rewards they get based on how much they looted so they still have fun with their looting but don't run amok.

[Mr.Moron]

"Hey guys tracking every little thing that might have some value in a dungeon is really starting to become a drag. I'd like to just assume going forward that tiny bits of magical scenery or whatever generally aren't worth bothering with. I get that looting is fun and I'll bigger sure to make sure there is plenty of booty to be had, but running things with the assumption that we might have to spend time on everything that isn't nailed down ( and even sometimes the things that are plus the nails), is really wearing me down. If we can agree to being a bit more willing to let minor things lie where they are it'd go a long way to increasing my enjoyment of the game and by extension my gming quality. "

[Melzentir]

Every time you describe an object that you haven't come up with a price for, roll 1d10. On an even, they can loot it and you pick some sort of reasonable figure for the price. On an odd, randomly choose a trap from Tomb of Horrors and apply it to the object. That should cut down on their frivolous looting.

No, of course I'm not serious. Doesn't mean I wouldn't be sorely tempted to do this were I in WarKitty's shoes.

At first I laughed heartily at your comment and said 'brilliant' out loud. :smalltongue:

Then I realized my party is already making three check-for-traps rolls per square of movement. :smalleek:

EDIT: As for the original post, I'd say level-down the reward they get for lawnmowing every square inch of decoration and give them clear-cut treasure chests filled with highly valueable rewards at the ends of dungeons. They will probably leave the upturned tree roots and cobwebs behind if they can fill their pockets with golden coins and enchanted daggers.

[Broken Crown]

To play devil's advocate, why not let them? If they're enthusiastic for this part of the game and you can offer this type of game play, what's keeping you from just running with it?

I can't speak for WarKitty, but as a DM, I would find running that game to be indescribably boring.

[TheThan]

That was fair up until the last sentence. "We killed an evil guy and took them from his lair. How is this only becoming an issue now?"



That is not how economies work, its need a co-ordinates (intentionally or not) effort across a far wider scale. The settlement will simply run out of disposable gold and be unable to buy their stuff, they will not break the market.



Again, requires slightly more than a single group to do that. Plus your example is laughable. Commoners aren't proficient with martial weapons, so that "cut you in two" attack is swinging at +2, for 1d8+6 damage. Yes, truly terrifying.

Don't use any of these beyond "the settlement runs out of money and cannot buy anymore magical/luxury items from you".. They are confrontational and contrived, talking to your PCs about the problem is preferable.

And how many people know that the adventurers are dungeon delving?

Or does the whole party yell “I’m going off on an adventure!” like Bilbo?

Hell what if it’s a secret mission and they’re not supposed to tell anyone what they’re doing and they deposit their loot after they finish it.
It’s very possible someone thought “these things look stolen, I better tell the police”, how many adventurers does the common person actually come across. "Whats a dirty, stinky loincloth wearing barbarian doing trying to sell me a priceless piece of art? It's probably stolen". these sorts of thoughts should occur to npcs when the pcs start acting really suspiciously. Particularly if they haven't bothered to establish a reputation with people yet.

Its also possible that they’re in a large town with a much more influential economy. A busy port town, a major trade route you name it, these places exist and can have much larger consequences when players show up with a ton of loot to offload.

You seem to be missing the point. If valuable items like say magic weapons aren’t worth anything then people aren’t going to be willing to buy them off PCs because there’s not value in them. Why should an arms dealer buy a magic sword, when he’s got 50 others he can’t sell?
Flooding a market does that, it happened to beenie babies, comic books and a bunch of other stuff. The market was flooded with them and their value tanked making them worth less, or worthless.

[sktarq]

The walls of the cave are carved with intricate designs.
The ceiling of the abandoned cathedral is held up with artistic pillars. The archway is an intriguing design.
There are rotting wall hangings that were once beautiful weaving.
The painted wooden ceiling is half-covered with mold.
The doors were held together with highly decorative wrought iron, with patterns almost discernible in through the deep layer of rust.
The large stone statue at the front of the hall has no eyes. the holes show signs of chisels, as if something was pried out long ago.

Does and doesn't work depending on how firm the PC's are in recovering treasure and what their other motives are.
For example-castle ruin we cleared was still in good nick but in a politically turbulent region. Whole Damn thing was made of a rare pink marble that had been gated in and was in itself quite valuable.
So we set up a perimeter, made a deal with the duke down river to pay 10% taxes in exchange for political cover for a year and to use an pay workers from his domain as first pick (to help boost his ailing economy). Used loose treasure to buy a lyre of building to create a canal from the river to the castle (about 4 miles) and proceeded to take apart the castle stone by stone. Clearing it was supposed to be the big challenge of the area so the DM had a tough time coming up with reasons for us to leave early. So the party got a couple million gold from floating the stuff down river to large port cities and getting a better price than the highly traveled stuff. Oh right one other PC and I came up with this and BBEG could wait we said. So never underestimate a PC's greed especially if that is the stated reason for adventuring.

[endoperez]

The fact that it drives me utterly crazy?

Have you tried raising the point with them?

"Hey guys, I want to make this game as fun as possible, but unfortunately, you have a habit of cutting off half the scenery and selling it for scrap. Could you tone that down? If you want to gather some more money, there will be tasks that will be more fun than hauling a two-ton statue from a dungeon to a city. "

[Mr.Moron]

Have you tried raising the point with them?

"Hey guys, I want to make this game as fun as possible, but unfortunately, you have a habit of cutting off half the scenery and selling it for scrap. Could you tone that down? If you want to gather some more money, there will be tasks that will be more fun than hauling a two-ton statue from a dungeon to a city. "

Again, this is the correct answer. Frictions caused by differences in play style should be addressed by setting expectations about what the game should be, and coming to a compromise through shared understanding.

Trying to in-game tweak your way around mismatched expectations is just going to exacerbate tensions.

[Coidzor]

How so, it is essentially designed exactly to prevent crazy behaviour where player collect every dagger a goblin was carrying, nevermind the fact that the dagger is probably just a sharp rock that uses the stats of a dagger. Nevermind the fact that value of an item in the PHB is presumably for a new, or at least well cared for, items of some value to start with.

You don't collect enemy weapons for sale unless they're actually valuable, or at least masterwork, past looow level, but the gear goes into the general pile for outfitting minions without actually spending liquid funds.

[valadil]

The fact that it drives me utterly crazy?


I can't speak for WarKitty, but as a DM, I would find running that game to be indescribably boring.

Legit! I'm not going to argue the point, but as a former tech support person I sometimes have to ask if the computer is plugged in. If it's something you can do for free, make the players happy. If it's something that costs you your enjoyment of your own game, screw it. The GM's needs are important too and the GM needs to be entertained.

[Vitruviansquid]

I'm with everybody who says you should just tell your group it's getting annoying. I can't really see any other solution doing anything other than trigger a cleverness/smugness arms race between you and your players that I guarantee will only make the campaign more annoying as time goes on.

[vasharanpaladin]

The fact that it drives me utterly crazy?

Nothing has any value except the items you decide have value. Yes, the players can take all the time they want prying up the golden floor tiles, ripping down the wall hangings and stealing the witchlights. No, they can't sell them, ever, and may in fact attract the local guard or paladin order for it. The weapons and armor used by the humanoid monsters are pitted, rusted and worthless. An extraplanar creature's equipment fades away when it dies. If they take ears for the bounty, the creature has absolutely nothing else worth looting.

Determine what is lootable and, as the players are insistent on it, what each piece is worth ahead of time. They can sell these pieces when they get back to town, but your NPC names the price and refuses to buy if they try to haggle. After all, if they're selling, they obviously want money and therefore the buyer has the moral high ground to say "take it or leave it."

Alternately, send them on diplomatic quests or quests related to "historical education." Whatever code you can think of for "if you try to loot anything I don't specifically say is lootable, there will be consequences and you will regret it forever." If they persist, not only can they not sell the evidence, they also have one or all other parties after their heads for it.

You're the DM, but that doesn't mean you can't have fun too. Lay down the law.

[Arbane]

I'm with everybody who says you should just tell your group it's getting annoying. I can't really see any other solution doing anything other than trigger a cleverness/smugness arms race between you and your players that I guarantee will only make the campaign more annoying as time goes on.

YES.

Or play a game where using money to purchase the correct gear isn't literally the difference between life and death.


Nothing has any value except the items you decide have value. Yes, the players can take all the time they want prying up the golden floor tiles, ripping down the wall hangings and stealing the witchlights. No, they can't sell them, ever, and may in fact attract the local guard or paladin order for it.

....Because all of a sudden, the Order of St. Cuthbert is REALLY UPSET the PCs destroyed that temple of Orcus... Seriously, why is stealing the chest full of gold OK, but taking the furniture is a hanging offense?

Tangentially, someone once mentioned an amusing idea for some NPCs to put in a D&D game - a trio of goblins/kobolds/whatever that follow the PCs around (at a safe distance) and take anything the PCs didn't bother looting - like an orc's boots and trousers.

[BeerMug Paladin]

....Because all of a sudden, the Order of St. Cuthbert is REALLY UPSET the PCs destroyed that temple of Orcus... Seriously, why is stealing the chest full of gold OK, but taking the furniture is a hanging offense?
Sustainable dungeon diving. If you remove all the furniture, that makes it less likely other cultists will return to the dungeon later and bring their valuable loot with them.

[Slipperychicken]

Sustainable dungeon diving. If you remove all the furniture, that makes it less likely other cultists will return to the dungeon later and bring their valuable loot with them.

Obviously, the solution is to steal/sell the old furniture, but replace it with nicer furnishings to entice higher-CR foes to occupy the place later.

[Boci]

And how many people know that the adventurers are dungeon delving?

Because adventurers and non-adventurers talk to each other.


Hell what if it’s a secret mission and they’re not supposed to tell anyone what they’re doing and they deposit their loot after they finish it.

Lie? Replace secret mission with generic dungeon.


It’s very possible someone thought “these things look stolen, I better tell the police”, how many adventurers does the common person actually come across. "Whats a dirty, stinky loincloth wearing barbarian doing trying to sell me a priceless piece of art? It's probably stolen". these sorts of thoughts should occur to npcs when the pcs start acting really suspiciously. Particularly if they haven't bothered to establish a reputation with people yet.

Right, but this should be an issue regardless of whether the PCs are taking only the most valuable stuff or everything not nailed down, so bringing it up as a solution to a specific problem is inorganic and confrontational.


Its also possible that they’re in a large town with a much more influential economy. A busy port town, a major trade route you name it, these places exist and can have much larger consequences when players show up with a ton of loot to offload.

Not really, because such places could handle it. Remember, a 12th level party with triple loot is the equivalent of a 16th level party with standard loot, so unless the economy breaks every time the latter comes to town, it will survive the former.


You seem to be missing the point. If valuable items like say magic weapons aren’t worth anything then people aren’t going to be willing to buy them off PCs because there’s not value in them. Why should an arms dealer buy a magic sword, when he’s got 50 others he can’t sell?
Flooding a market does that, it happened to beenie babies, comic books and a bunch of other stuff. The market was flooded with them and their value tanked making them worth less, or worthless.

Yes, but they were not flooded by 4 individuals who has a (in world terms) minor stash they found and sold. You seem to be missing the points. The PCs here don't seem to be doubling or tripling their WBL, just getting some extra money. The problem seems to be how long this takes and how much effort it is for the DM, not the unbalancing affect of extra gold.

[Doorhandle]

I'd suggest natural beauty: they;re not going to loot an underground tree system, after all, and if they DO manage to loot a volcano, it's something to be commended, rather than blamed for.

Another option is making them less valuable than they appear: such as gold leaf rather than actual gold. it's enough to fool the plebs, and what crazy fool would bother picking up the statue to check?

The best advice is, as always, to talk to them about it, and reach a comprimise.

[Rallicus]

Another option is making them less valuable than they appear: such as gold leaf rather than actual gold. it's enough to fool the plebs, and what crazy fool would bother picking up the statue to check?


Or vice-versa.

That rusted copper necklace? Actually the heirloom of a wealthy family, passed down for generations.

But yeah, there's pretty simple ways of not delving into lootfest mode. The fact that there's no wealth by level is great, and you don't even need to keep track of a trinket's value because you can just make it up when they go to sell it.

You can also be creative to prevent mass looting. Making armor size-specific (why would I want this little chainmail? It's not even worth the steel it's been forged with), having broken items, etc.

After my party killed several tribal warriors last session, I noted that their hide armor was crawling with fleas and ticks. Guess who picked up all three, in hopes of making 15 easy gold pieces?

Nobody.

[Slipperychicken]

But yeah, there's pretty simple ways of not delving into lootfest mode. The fact that there's no wealth by level is great, and you don't even need to keep track of a trinket's value because you can just make it up when they go to sell it.

What game are you talking about? If 5e, I think we should wait for the DMG to come out to confirm that.

[Jay R]

See the trouble is I tend to get the types that are a bit too industrious when it comes with getting rid of loot. No, no, they don't want the overall gold piece value. They want to know exactly how much the decorative shiny they pried up is worth and see if they can bluff and haggle their way into getting 5 extra silver. I have no idea why they even care about that five extra silver.

They need deadlines. If a rival group is trying to get to the dragon's lair first, then haggling over silver pieces can cost them thousands in gold and jewelry.

[WarKitty]

The other big problem I've had (not currently) is that players seem to get an idea into their heads that something is/isn't valuable and then expect to be rewarded according to the conclusions they've drawn. Then if they don't get the value they thought they were going to get, the players feel like they've been cheated. Often this would end in them being frustrated at me because they felt I was changing prices just to rob them of a reward for their effort.

At least I've managed to train my new party that someone really should put points into appraise and have a few knowledges so they can properly identify magic items.


Does and doesn't work depending on how firm the PC's are in recovering treasure and what their other motives are.
For example-castle ruin we cleared was still in good nick but in a politically turbulent region. Whole Damn thing was made of a rare pink marble that had been gated in and was in itself quite valuable.
So we set up a perimeter, made a deal with the duke down river to pay 10% taxes in exchange for political cover for a year and to use an pay workers from his domain as first pick (to help boost his ailing economy). Used loose treasure to buy a lyre of building to create a canal from the river to the castle (about 4 miles) and proceeded to take apart the castle stone by stone. Clearing it was supposed to be the big challenge of the area so the DM had a tough time coming up with reasons for us to leave early. So the party got a couple million gold from floating the stuff down river to large port cities and getting a better price than the highly traveled stuff. Oh right one other PC and I came up with this and BBEG could wait we said. So never underestimate a PC's greed especially if that is the stated reason for adventuring.

That would actually be awesome. If players can come up with something clever and fun that's great.

[ElenionAncalima]

100% agree with the people saying you should talk about it with the players.

Sure, there are a bunch of ways you could try to deny their looting in game. However, pretty much all those ways risk the following:
1. Players spending even more time and energy trying to salvage loot.
2. Players feeling like the GM is trying to screw them over.

Tabletop gaming is a collaborative experience. Its difficult to solve a problem like this if 5/6 people don't realize it exists. Any time player/GM expecations are out of alignment, communication is probably needed to get everyone on the same page.

[WarKitty]

100% agree with the people saying you should talk about it with the players.

Sure, there are a bunch of ways you could try to deny their looting in game. However, pretty much all those ways risk the following:
1. Players spending even more time and energy trying to salvage loot.
2. Players feeling like the GM is trying to screw them over.

Tabletop gaming is a collaborative experience. Its difficult to solve a problem like this if 5/6 people don't realize it exists. Any time player/GM expecations are out of alignment, communication is probably needed to get everyone on the same page.

I'm not sure how to say it without coming across as "I don't want you to have more money," you know? I mean, I've found players react very badly to not getting as much money out of an activity as they had expected, even if that was the plan all along. And I don't really want to throw in more money to cover what they might or might not be getting.

[Slipperychicken]

I'm not sure how to say it without coming across as "I don't want you to have more money," you know? I mean, I've found players react very badly to not getting as much money out of an activity as they had expected, even if that was the plan all along. And I don't really want to throw in more money to cover what they might or might not be getting.

You could frame it in terms of the kind of game you want to run. As in, you don't want to run games about murderhobos ripping curtains off of windows to sell them.

Another way is to frame it in terms of the value of their time. The players have limited session time. Every OOC minute which they spend threatening to dismember a merchant over 3 silver pieces (or doing a similarly asinine task like ripping curtains off windows to sell them) is a minute they could be questing, doing fun stuff, gaining XP, and finding loot which actually matters. If the players want to get more monies, they need to budget their time efficiently and spend it on the actions which get them more loot for their time (such as questing and finding the treasure you intended). If they don't spend their time efficiently, they will incur opportunity costs which come in the form of treasure they didn't have OOC time to find.

[Vitruviansquid]

I'm not sure how to say it without coming across as "I don't want you to have more money," you know? I mean, I've found players react very badly to not getting as much money out of an activity as they had expected, even if that was the plan all along. And I don't really want to throw in more money to cover what they might or might not be getting.

Next time your PC's start this lootfest stuff, say "alright, now hold on. Besides the important loot you've been given in magical items and plot important MacGuffins, your characters will also have found X worth of miscellaneous loot."

And your PC will say, "what if I take the pimp chalice you described two rooms ago?"

And you'll say, "that's already factored in"

And another PC will say, "what about the tapestry? Or can I grind up the lich's bones and sell it as magical mystery medicine?"

And you'll say, "that's already factored in."

And then the first PC will go, "But come on, a jewel-encrusted pimp chalice is worth way more than the X amount of money you're giving us"

And you'll say "no, it's not."

[WarKitty]

Next time your PC's start this lootfest stuff, say "alright, now hold on. Besides the important loot you've been given in magical items and plot important MacGuffins, your characters will also have found X worth of miscellaneous loot."

And your PC will say, "what if I take the pimp chalice you described two rooms ago?"

And you'll say, "that's already factored in"

And another PC will say, "what about the tapestry? Or can I grind up the lich's bones and sell it as magical mystery medicine?"

And you'll say, "that's already factored in."

And then the first PC will go, "But come on, a jewel-encrusted pimp chalice is worth way more than the X amount of money you're giving us"

And you'll say "no, it's not."

And then they'll want an explanation of what exactly are the gems on the chalice and the fabric of the tapestry so they can look up the value in the DMG themselves. :smallbiggrin:

[Vitruviansquid]

"HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH no"

[vasharanpaladin]

And then they'll want an explanation of what exactly are the gems on the chalice and the fabric of the tapestry so they can look up the value in the DMG themselves. :smallbiggrin:

And then you'll remind them of Rule Zero: The DM is always right. :smallwink:

[Sith_Happens]

Because adventurers and non-adventurers talk to each other.

This is incredibly group-dependent.:smalltongue:


And then you'll remind them of Rule Zero: The DM is always right. :smallwink:

No need for that, just let them leaf through the DMG once for long enough to realize that individual gems and art objects don't have set values in the first place.

[WarKitty]

See again, I think that would just make players feel cheated. They went to the work of taking stuff they thought was valuable, so they want to get the reward they feel they've earned from it. And they feel like the DM is being arbitrary if suddenly it's not valuable or they can't get a value on it.

[draken50]

Nothing makes players stop taking everything that's not nailed down like encumbrance based not just off weight, but also volume.

Why yes, that chandelier is worth quite a bit. Have fun fighting with that strapped to your back. Oh you want to put it down? well you're going to need another player to spend their valuable turn unstrapping it from you. Oh you were walking silently... well, your footsteps didn't make any noise, but all that stuff clanging around in your pack did. Did you buy colth/blankets to keep that from happening? No, well when you do make sure your remember that weight and size too.

Things may be worth something, that doesn't make them easy to carry, and there's plenty of ways to cause problems with bags of holding up to an including, It won't fit in the opening of the bag.

If there's complaints you can always: "Do you want to be heroes or second-hand crap salesman?"

[Sith_Happens]

See again, I think that would just make players feel cheated. They went to the work of taking stuff they thought was valuable, so they want to get the reward they feel they've earned from it. And they feel like the DM is being arbitrary if suddenly it's not valuable or they can't get a value on it.

Then don't listen to the people telling you to do that.:smalltongue:

What you can do is tell your players that you've found you don't have the patience to go through an individual appraisal process for every piece of loot, so from now on you're just going to have a total ready based on the assumption that they pick the place clean (since that's been their MO so far). If they then want to haggle with potential buyers for more money, you can abstract that too; just ask for some skill checks and move on with the game.

[Broken Crown]

See again, I think that would just make players feel cheated. They went to the work of taking stuff they thought was valuable, so they want to get the reward they feel they've earned from it. And they feel like the DM is being arbitrary if suddenly it's not valuable or they can't get a value on it.

It sounds as though the players have unrealistic expectations, which really ought to be shattered for everyone's good. Unless the PCs are being paid by the hour for looting, they shouldn't expect to be compensated based on the amount of effort they put in. Loot doesn't magically gain value just because they put a lot of work into retrieving it. Do the players understand this? Maybe you could talk to them a bit about economics.

[Slipperychicken]

See again, I think that would just make players feel cheated. They went to the work of taking stuff they thought was valuable, so they want to get the reward they feel they've earned from it. And they feel like the DM is being arbitrary if suddenly it's not valuable or they can't get a value on it.

Make them roll appraise before you let them try to take it. PC realizes his precious is probably worth 2 copper, and hopefully lets it go. If he keeps at it, you can chide him for wasting your time.

[caden_varn]

I agree that this is something you should discuss with the group. I think the best way to do it is to lay out the issue you have with it (‘I get frustrated with all the book-keeping and arguing over minor pieces of loot – I feel it slows down the game and distracts from the main action. I don’t mind you guys getting the extra money, I just don’t want to spend so much of our precious gaming time doing it’ for example), then ask them for their thoughts. Ask them to suggest solutions. You can use some of the suggestions you like from this thread to start discussion, but try to get them to come up with ideas of their own too – these can be very revealing about individual players motivations apart from anything else, helping to steer the discussion to a mutually agreeable conclusion. They will also be much happier with a solution they have contributed to.

Obviously, you should keep discussions polite and friendly.

Now, this may show up a fundamental difference in desired playstyle. If the reason they want to do this is that they enjoy the process of finding valuable things, appraising them and roleplaying out the bargaining for those few extra coppers, you have an issue. You’ll either need to find a compromise both sides can live with, or consider whether to bow out gracefully.

[Jay R]

You might try this approach:

"Hey guys, I'm trying to describe the scenery in a way that will add awe, mystery and grandeur to the game, to improve total immersion in our adventure in a wondrous fantasy world. In fact, it appears to improve total immersion in your mundane bookkeeping and money-grubbing. There's no point building these elaborate sets just to see them ripped up and sold for scrap.

"Anybody here at the table have a suggestion for something I can do to help us to see things through the eyes of enchantment, rather than the eyes of an accountant?"

This may not work. But if it doesn't, nothing else will either.

[WarKitty]

I think what I'm trying to avoid is getting into a players vs. dm type of game. My experience is that players want to feel like they're being clever, noticing what's valuable and taking it. This applies regardless of whether they've actually put points into the appraise skill. Finding out suddenly that what they took wasn't valuable leads to feeling cheated - "I had this great idea and then the DM decided to make the stuff really cheap." The players end up feeling like they're on the rails and that doesn't make anyone happy.

[RedWarlock]

Seriously, tell them it makes it hard for you to DM. Be willing to back it up if need be.

In your shoes, I'd be saying that I needed a break from DMing, and if no-one else is willing to step up to fill that seat, the game doesn't happen.

You are just as much a player who deserves to enjoy what he is doing as they are. If you're not enjoying being the DM, you shouldn't be forced to do so.

[PolymeraseJones]

I gotta echo the suggestion to just straight-out tell your party, "Doing things the way we have been is indescribably boring and difficult for me."

Hopefully they'll be reasonable about it and tone things down or agree to a compromise. If they prioritise their own in-game purses above their GM's enjoyment of the game, maybe it's time find a new group.

[Sartharina]

See again, I think that would just make players feel cheated. They went to the work of taking stuff they thought was valuable, so they want to get the reward they feel they've earned from it. And they feel like the DM is being arbitrary if suddenly it's not valuable or they can't get a value on it.Given that you know what the players will do, I think you should work the value of the stuff they greyhawk into the value of the treasure they're supposed to find - and since you know they'll try to haggle the price, reduce the figure you give them by as much as you want them to be able to haggle it for.

As for the ethics of Greyhawking - I'm of a similar mind of the players - "This stuff's really beautiful. It would be a shame to let it just rot unseen and unused in a dank crypt". Of course, if something looks much better without being Greyhawked, you can have the party get contacted by a Tourism Agency, willing to pay them to leave dungeons in aesthetically-pleasing condition after they clear them out, then turn the now-safe dungeons into tourist attractions! "You are now playing Museum Tycoon - Fantasy Edition!"

[Jay R]

As for the ethics of Greyhawking - I'm of a similar mind of the players - "This stuff's really beautiful. It would be a shame to let it just rot unseen and unused in a dank crypt". Of course, if something looks much better without being Greyhawked, you can have the party get contacted by a Tourism Agency, willing to pay them to leave dungeons in aesthetically-pleasing condition after they clear them out, then turn the now-safe dungeons into tourist attractions! "You are now playing Museum Tycoon - Fantasy Edition!"

Oh, great. A whole new dimension to PC money-grubbing.

[veti]

I can think of two lines of attack.

One, who's gonna pay for this stuff? You going to sell direct to end users? Okay, we can roleplay that for a few hours, but you're not going to earn any XP (at all) during that time, and only minimal cash. And very likely someone's going to call the watch about these heavily-armed hawkers of trash. Or are you going to try to find a merchant who's interested in buying three hundred soiled, secondhand wossnames, resale value about 1 g.p. each, each requiring skilled work to refurbish, taking up inventory and display space... no, any merchant I'm running would most likely tell them to hit the road.

Two, time pressure. It's trivially easy to introduce an 'urgency' component to their quest: if they take time out for multiple shopping trips back to town (allowing for the difficulty, each time, of finding the appropriate merchant), it's going to take days and the kids they're trying to rescue/treasure they're trying to steal/enemy they're trying to catch will be long gone. Of course a high-magic party has ways around that, they could secrete everything in an extradimensional space or something and sort it out later, but it should at least limit them to be a bit discriminating.

[caden_varn]

I think what I'm trying to avoid is getting into a players vs. dm type of game.

The best way to avoid this is to TALK to them about it, so you are sure you understand why they are doing this. So far you are speculating and assuming about their reasons - you may well be right, but if you aren't, your solutions may end up doing exactly the oppostie of what you hope.

It doesn't need to be a big deal - you can just mention it casually to a few of the players if you like. For example -
'Hey, I've noticed in the game you guys spend a lot of time looting and appraising everything that you can possibly sell. It's not a big deal, but it does take up a lot of game time. I was wondering why you were doing it - is it just because it is there, or do you feel you really need the money or something. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it, I just want to try to speed that part of the game up a bit so we can have more time for the main plot.'

I'd hope none of your players would take offense at something like that.

[WarKitty]

The best way to avoid this is to TALK to them about it, so you are sure you understand why they are doing this. So far you are speculating and assuming about their reasons - you may well be right, but if you aren't, your solutions may end up doing exactly the oppostie of what you hope.

It doesn't need to be a big deal - you can just mention it casually to a few of the players if you like. For example -
'Hey, I've noticed in the game you guys spend a lot of time looting and appraising everything that you can possibly sell. It's not a big deal, but it does take up a lot of game time. I was wondering why you were doing it - is it just because it is there, or do you feel you really need the money or something. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it, I just want to try to speed that part of the game up a bit so we can have more time for the main plot.'

I'd hope none of your players would take offense at something like that.

Why is everyone assuming this is one specific group that I'm having this sort of problems with? This is how seriously every single group I've DM'd with ever has responded to lots of extra scenery - by breaking off the plot to loot it.

[Jay R]

Why is everyone assuming this is one specific group that I'm having this sort of problems with? This is how seriously every single group I've DM'd with ever has responded to lots of extra scenery - by breaking off the plot to loot it.

The plot should stab them in the back when they do it.

Otherwise, there is no reason not to continue.

[Eisenheim]

Why is everyone assuming this is one specific group that I'm having this sort of problems with? This is how seriously every single group I've DM'd with ever has responded to lots of extra scenery - by breaking off the plot to loot it.

I don't think the general consensus, that an OOC conversation is the best way out of this problem, is less reasonable because you have had the problem multiple times. The issue, regardless of how many groups it's occurring in, is a clash of play-styles, and that's something best addressed by talking to the rest of your group.

[Telok]

Exploding scenery.

Seriously, some of the high spellcaster npcs in my settings have had every room trapped with Symbol spells behind thin wood fascades. Another had a whole library where every book was trapped, and many of the books were dummies. One paticularly smart BBEG of mine set his dungeon up for rapid reinhabitation. He assumed that heroes would come after him and win, so he designed his dungeon for easy escapes and furnished it with heavy stuff while leaving a few pretty things for looting. The stuff he really didn't want to lose was trapped with magical curses and then posted signs for his minions telling them not to fool with it because of the curse.

In a world of people who can teleport, walk through walls, and turn invisible, a few magic traps on your stuff is a good investment.

[caden_varn]

As others have said, it doesn't really matter whether it is one group or many, the only real solution I see is to talk it out. It just means you may need to have a few more conversations...

You can try in-game solutions, but this can lead to a GM vs players mindset as you indicated earlier (depends on the players of course).

Otherwise, you can try to play settings/systems that don't lend themselves to looting so much (I think D&D is particularly prone to this, something like FATE or Call of Cthulhu or most modern settings I guess are less so)

[Jay R]

How do you spice up the scenery without the party deciding they need to chip every magical light out of the wall to sell?

The straightforward answer is to spice it up with things that cannot be moved, or are intriguing but not valuable.

Intricate mosaics that crumble if you try to take them off the wall.
Painted beams in the ceiling.
Carvings in the walls.
Ironwork fixtures that have a sun-and-moon motif. They weigh 50 pounds each and might be worth a couple of gp.
Walls in a herrringbone pattern.
Designs worked into the flagstones.
Interesting arches in the hallways.

Also, use graffiti carved into the wall:

"The king is a fink!"

"Cakes are kept in the third pantry in the kitchen."

"These words were carved by Nolan Bede
Just right here for you to read.
I'll provide important news,
A special clue for you to use.
There's a trap above you, so
Make a reflex saving throw."

[WarKitty]

As others have said, it doesn't really matter whether it is one group or many, the only real solution I see is to talk it out. It just means you may need to have a few more conversations...

You can try in-game solutions, but this can lead to a GM vs players mindset as you indicated earlier (depends on the players of course).

Otherwise, you can try to play settings/systems that don't lend themselves to looting so much (I think D&D is particularly prone to this, something like FATE or Call of Cthulhu or most modern settings I guess are less so)

I guess I've found with this sort of thing OOC conversations tend to lead to even more of a GM vs. players mindset. It comes across as "the GM doesn't want us to have our stuff and is telling us how to play the game." And most people don't really enjoy that.

[Lord Torath]

I guess I've found with this sort of thing OOC conversations tend to lead to even more of a GM vs. players mindset. It comes across as "the GM doesn't want us to have our stuff and is telling us how to play the game." And most people don't really enjoy that.So tell them you'll increase the treasure you give them by 10% if they'll stop trying to take your scenery. Tell them it's not about the gold, but about the time they spend looting/bargaining when they could be adventuring.

[Slipperychicken]

Why is everyone assuming this is one specific group that I'm having this sort of problems with? This is how seriously every single group I've DM'd with ever has responded to lots of extra scenery - by breaking off the plot to loot it.

Are there ever IC reasons not to loot the scenery?

[draken50]

I guess I've found with this sort of thing OOC conversations tend to lead to even more of a GM vs. players mindset. It comes across as "the GM doesn't want us to have our stuff and is telling us how to play the game." And most people don't really enjoy that.

So do what I said, saying something is cumbersome to carry and/or heavy, and making them deal with that is not GM vs. player.. it makes sense. Skyrim may let you carry 300 brooms but have you ever tried to hike mountains carrying 300 brooms. I can assure you it would be quite difficult.

[RedWarlock]

If you're not having fun, (which you are entitled to have just as much as any player) then step down, and let someone else run it as the same loot-fest. There's three results I can see:

1. The new DM sees just how penny-pinching and annoying having to do all that work computing excess loot values is, and hopefully realizes that you REALLY weren't enjoying it.
2. You get time as a player, and if you still feel like the story is moving too slowly, and want to move forward faster, and make the same complaints as a player as you had when GMing, even when you stand to benefit, maybe they'll think about what that means for you.
3. You get time as a player, and get to relax.

Hopefully 1 happens, because it would mean more understanding going around.

[WarKitty]

Are there ever IC reasons not to loot the scenery?

Depends on what you count as an IC reason. For me as a player the ridiculousness of groping around taking and hawking every light bulb and metal scrap would be enough - I don't play D&D to run a thrift store. I mean, there's no IC reason not to other than that it's just kind of dumb and unrealistic behavior, spending IC hours to get enough money that might buy you one suit of nonmagical armor when you're dripping with magic like a christmas tree. But of course as a DM it's also a headache making sure everything can be justified as really not that valuable when the players (not the characters, the players) think magic stuff ought to be valuable. It's so very annoyingly metagamey. But if it's not justified it looks like you're just arbitrarily denying the group loot and then it just comes across as trying to railroad the part and punish them for being cleverl

[Jayabalard]

Are there ever IC reasons not to loot the scenery?

You shouldn't loot the scenery when you know that it'd upset a powerful (ooc: non-level appropriate) entity or entities if you do so. If it's a tomb, or ancient ruins, or an ancient natural cavern... ransacking it and selling off everything is probably going to piss off someone. If you're not damned sure who that someone is, and equally sure that you're not afraid of that someone... you should tread carefully.
You shouldn't loot the scenery when you aren't sure that the scenery is safe to be looted; e.g. a "magic" light that is actually a CFL and therefore contains mercury, which is pretty nasty if broken... magic examples can be just as bad or worse.
You shouldn't loot the scenery when you aren't pretty sure that you're going to be able to find a buyer for it later; anyone who isn't a pretty hard-core hoarder isn't going to take everything "just in case I can find a buyer"
You shouldn't loot the scenery unless your character would actually gain some sort of enjoyment out of grinding every last copper out of an area, regardless of how long it takes. In particular, the profit per time per effort should be as high as something else your character could be doing... otherwise you're actually LOSING money by hanging out and stripping an area completely bare instead of moving on to the next high paying gig. Seriously, how many characters have an in-character reason to spend a week stripping a cavern of every conceivable scrap of salvage instead of heading back to civilization and enjoying wine, women (and/or men) and song?

[WarKitty]

Really it's that last one. When it gets nasty is when it gets combined with a certain amount of metagaming. The players, upon realizing they have essentially a giant bag of scrap, start thinking "hey the DM is trying to cheat us out of our reward" rather than "wow we spent all that time collecting a bunch of useless junk."

[Slipperychicken]

You shouldn't loot the scenery when you know that it'd upset a powerful (ooc: non-level appropriate) entity or entities if you do so. If it's a tomb, or ancient ruins, or an ancient natural cavern... ransacking it and selling off everything is probably going to piss off someone. If you're not damned sure who that someone is, and equally sure that you're not afraid of that someone... you should tread carefully.
You shouldn't loot the scenery when you aren't sure that the scenery is safe to be looted; e.g. a "magic" light that is actually a CFL and therefore contains mercury, which is pretty nasty if broken... magic examples can be just as bad or worse.
You shouldn't loot the scenery when you aren't pretty sure that you're going to be able to find a buyer for it later; anyone who isn't a pretty hard-core hoarder isn't going to take everything "just in case I can find a buyer"
You shouldn't loot the scenery unless your character would actually gain some sort of enjoyment out of grinding every last copper out of an area, regardless of how long it takes. In particular, the profit per time per effort should be as high as something else your character could be doing... otherwise you're actually LOSING money by hanging out and stripping an area completely bare instead of moving on to the next high paying gig. Seriously, how many characters have an in-character reason to spend a week stripping a cavern of every conceivable scrap of salvage instead of heading back to civilization and enjoying wine, women (and/or men) and song?


I meant to ask if the OP includes any of this kind of stuff in his games to disincentivize looting.

EDIT:
In-character, if I knew that I could pretty easily make a buck by moving some scraps back to town, I'd do it. This goes double if I'm not making a reliable income: that little extra could mean the difference in paying the bills. It's like finding a dollar bill lying on the ground; are you going to take it, or are you going to leave it there because you can't be assed to pick it up?

[WarKitty]

In-character, if I knew that I could pretty easily make a buck by moving some scraps back to town, I'd do it. This goes double if I'm not making a reliable income: that little extra could mean the difference in paying the bills. It's like finding a dollar bill lying on the ground; are you going to take it, or are you going to leave it there because you can't be assed to pick it up?

It's more like someone who goes through dumpsters for hours to find things to sell, despite having enough money to live for the rest of their lives. And then gets mad when they don't get top dollar for the stuff they dug up out of the trash and decides the shopkeeper must be scamming them because their list book says a couch is worth more than that.

[Jayabalard]

It's more like someone who goes through dumpsters for hours to find things to sell, despite having enough money to live for the rest of their lives. And then gets mad when they don't get top dollar for the stuff they dug up out of the trash and decides the shopkeeper must be scamming them because their list book says a couch is worth more than that.Exactly.

There are people that do this. The guy who has saved millions by reusing his paper towels, dumpster diving for clothes and food and basically never spending anything. Hoarders that never turn loose of anything, ever.

Personally I think it's pretty unrealistic to try and superimpose someone like that on top of "an adventurer" ...

[Slipperychicken]

It's more like someone who goes through dumpsters for hours to find things to sell, despite having enough money to live for the rest of their lives. And then gets mad when they don't get top dollar for the stuff they dug up out of the trash and decides the shopkeeper must be scamming them because their list book says a couch is worth more than that.

To complete your analogy: The shopkeeper always gives the list book price anyway, dumpster-diving is considered a supremely honorable trade, there aren't any diseases or other hazards involved with dumpster-diving, and everybody in the universe acts like this is the most normal thing in the world. This is all because the god of our hypothetical universe doesn't want the dumpster-diver to feel offended. And somehow this god thinks the dumpster-diver is crazy for thinking he can profit from this scheme, even though he always does and always has, and no-one has told him otherwise.

[WarKitty]

To complete your analogy: The shopkeeper always gives the list book price anyway, dumpster-diving is considered a supremely honorable trade, there aren't any diseases or other hazards involved with dumpster-diving, and everybody in the universe acts like this is the most normal thing in the world. This is all because the god of our hypothetical universe doesn't want the dumpster-diver to feel offended. And somehow this god thinks the dumpster-diver is crazy for thinking he can profit from this scheme, even though he always does and always has, and no-one has told him otherwise.

Except they've never gotten the list price, but because the book says they do they're convinced that the god is being mean and unfair for not giving them the list price and they don't want said god telling them what to do so they're going to keep trying harder. And when the book still isn't accurate they get frustrated and decide the world is arbitrary and out to get them and start fussing about being railroaded and think the god doesn't want them to have any fun.

[RedWarlock]

So, I know I keep saying this, but *why* are you putting up with this crap, and not just telling someone else to DM? That is not the speech of a happy GM. Get out of there if it's not fun.

[WarKitty]

So, I know I keep saying this, but *why* are you putting up with this crap, and not just telling someone else to DM? That is not the speech of a happy GM. Get out of there if it's not fun.

Because I really like GMing I just don't like that I can't do one thing that's really fun for me without it becoming a big issue - and because any group that did that playing with them would be an even worse nightmare, because I'd feel like I was constantly straining disbelief and sitting around watching other players moneygrub. But so far as I can tell this is how just about every other player other than me thinks the world should work.

[Sith_Happens]

Except they've never gotten the list price, but because the book says they do they're convinced that the god is being mean and unfair for not giving them the list price and they don't want said god telling them what to do so they're going to keep trying harder. And when the book still isn't accurate they get frustrated and decide the world is arbitrary and out to get them and start fussing about being railroaded and think the god doesn't want them to have any fun.

At this point could you specify what system/edition you're playing, because I don't know of one that has list prices for random bits of scenery. Guidelines for how much the scenery surrounding a given enemy should be worth in total, yes, but never an item-by-item breakdown.

[WarKitty]

At this point could you specify what system/edition you're playing, because I don't know of one that has list prices for random bits of scenery. Guidelines for how much the scenery surrounding a given enemy should be worth in total, yes, but never an item-by-item breakdown.

D&D. The trouble is if it's magic players want to know the spell that was used to create it and then price it according to the wondrous item list. Similarly if it's got gems in it they want to look them up in the table and figure out how much it should be for that. Or if it's gold or silver they want to break it down by weight...you get the idea.

[Milo v3]

D&D. The trouble is if it's magic players want to know the spell that was used to create it and then price it according to the wondrous item list. Similarly if it's got gems in it they want to look them up in the table and figure out how much it should be for that. Or if it's gold or silver they want to break it down by weight...you get the idea.

Magic items, how are they identifying the spell of the magic item? As far as I know, you can only discern the school of the item and the traits of the item itself.

Gems and objects formed from precious metals, art objects and thus do not have specific costs by RAW and the table that they're looking at.

[WarKitty]

Magic items, how are they identifying the spell of the magic item? As far as I know, you can only discern the school of the item and the traits of the item itself.

Gems and objects formed from precious metals, art objects and thus do not have specific costs by RAW and the table that they're looking at.

They're not identifying them IC, is the thing. They're identifying them OOC and then wondering why when they go to sell them IC they can't get the price they expected.

[Sith_Happens]

The trouble is if it's magic players want to know the spell that was used to create it and then price it according to the wondrous item list.

If it's a custom magic item then it's worth however much you say it's worth. That said, anything magical is inherently at least somewhat valuable, so you really shouldn't be surprised when the players grab everything that pings on Detect Magic.


Similarly if it's got gems in it they want to look them up in the table and figure out how much it should be for that.

I was going to say that the DMG doesn't get that granular, but I double-checked and found table 3-6, so I guess it does.

Anyways, if you're really that afraid to just tell your players that this is driving you crazy, the alternative is to plan and appraise your scenery in advance so you at least aren't scrambling to ad-lib values as you're asked for them.

EDIT:


They're not identifying them IC, is the thing. They're identifying them OOC and then wondering why when they go to sell them IC they can't get the price they expected.

I'm actually on your players' side with this; in a game with fixed prices you're just wasting time when you make people figure out in-character what those prices are.

[WarKitty]

If it's a custom magic item then it's worth however much you say it's worth. That said, anything magical is inherently at least somewhat valuable, so you really shouldn't be surprised when the players grab everything that pings on Detect Magic.

I think this here's part of the problem. I like to run my games closer to eberron without the steampunk elements than the standard DMG levels. Learning to cast cantrips is no harder than learning to smith a horseshoe. And DMG economics just don't really work in the first place. But I find it very hard to deviate from RAW on such things without players feeling the world is arbitrary and they're being cheated.

[Mr.Moron]

I think this here's part of the problem. I like to run my games closer to eberron without the steampunk elements than the standard DMG levels. Learning to cast cantrips is no harder than learning to smith a horseshoe. And DMG economics just don't really work in the first place. But I find it very hard to deviate from RAW on such things without players feeling the world is arbitrary and they're being cheated.

Worlds can be a rather arbitrary place, sometimes you do get cheated. That aside the way around this is clear:

Announce that you'll not be following "Standard" by sell/guidelines and that you'll be working under the assumption that the loot'n'scoot aspect of the game is to be downplayed, if present at all. Put this out and be crystal clear about. Ideally before a game begins. Setting expectations goes a long way to curb disappointment. It also gives a chance for people to go "Nope. Not the game for me" if you're running things in a way they dislike.

That said it just sounds like you and your group may not have compatible play styles. It sounds more like they just want a bot to run their loot pinatas and be the banker for the game currency while you're looking for more of an in-universe experience.

[Boci]

I think this here's part of the problem. I like to run my games closer to eberron without the steampunk elements than the standard DMG levels. Learning to cast cantrips is no harder than learning to smith a horseshoe. And DMG economics just don't really work in the first place. But I find it very hard to deviate from RAW on such things without players feeling the world is arbitrary and they're being cheated.

The players are sounding a tad on the entitled side, but you do seem to be making some mistakes. You are changing the price of the magical items they find as loot. Have you changed the price of the magical items in the shop?

Because if not, then I can understand why they feel cheated. Magic items have no wear and tear, and they already sell for 50% of their market value. Reducing their price any further is strange, and pretty hard to justify without also reducing their sale price.

Sometimes its not deviation from RAW that players dislike, but when it is done so inconsistently.

[daremetoidareyo]

That said it just sounds like you and your group may not have compatible play styles. It sounds more like they just want a bot to run their loot pinatas and be the banker for the game currency while you're looking for more of an in-universe experience.

This. seems so true.

But may I suggest that you let them go with the rampant looting by introducing a rich, relatively crazy artificer. This artificer is evil as all heck and collects these weird tidbits to assemble death machines that he releases on the wild. He accepts anything that pings with detect magic and any gems. He refuses to buy art.

Let the PCs deal with the fact that they supplied the source of the roving death constructs that have been killing and robbing the elves nearby.

From this standpoint, just describe away anything cool that you want. The PCs can loothobo it, and you got a long term plot hook and Honest George's Knick-a-knack shack is the site of the BBEG and the source of rampant evil. Have honest george tell them that he met them as a small time guy and could not have amassed so much power without them looting so hard.

Another option

Have the PCs interact with these magic lights, phosphorescent fungus, or whatever. Let them sell them in town, and the only buyer wants to know the details of where they were found and a map. This guy hires carts, the PCs as guards even, oxen and some simple laborers, and goes out to develop a full scale mining operation of these tidbits. This guy gets ridiculously rich by exploiting these things, becomes a town leader that the PCs take quests from. Let the PCs feel important while you integrate their behaviors into your descriptive texts and flesh out the ripple effects of their behavior on your world.

similar option:
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tale_of_an_Industrious_Rogue,_Part_I
Let the PCs be greedy b*stards, and let them control their plot, where all you need to do is allow it...then monkey wrench it from the monster manual. The link is a long fun read, but tl:dr: rogue in a party capitalizes on a rift in elemental plane of salt in a dungeon by returning and developing a salt business. Then branches out into nightmare mining, (necessitating a deal with night hags & rounding up an aboleth to cause nightmares) to trying to make dreams come true for dreamers and looking for dreamers that dream of fountains of gold. A great campaign built upon the PCs drive to loot and acquire.

[WarKitty]

The players are sounding a tad on the entitled side, but you do seem to be making some mistakes. You are changing the price of the magical items they find as loot. Have you changed the price of the magical items in the shop?

Because if not, then I can understand why they feel cheated. Magic items have no wear and tear, and they already sell for 50% of their market value. Reducing their price any further is strange, and pretty hard to justify without also reducing their sale price.

Sometimes its not deviation from RAW that players dislike, but when it is done so inconsistently.

Magic weapons and armor suitable to high level aren't in common use, and thus don't have a reduction of sale price. Other magic items, such as magic lights or bags of holding, are more common and thus would be cheaper (and were probably easily available in the loot anyways). It's a matter of supply and demand really. And honestly I do do it partly to try to discourage silly behavior - because I don't want to engage in another session of "let's spend the whole time trying to figure out ways to get the specific piece of loot we want, no matter how ill-equipped we are, to the exclusion of actually accomplishing anything and far beyond the point where it makes any sense."

I don't know. I've never played and would probably dislike game store style games, so the whole "why don't you just leave" is always a bit weird to me. What's the point of gaming if you have to search for a group? If I just want to relax with some fantasy I'd play a video game or read a book or something.

Seriously, though, this seems to be how just about every player ever I've run into functions - once they get it in their heads that something is valuable then the entire goal of the session is now to obtain that one thing, and any evidence to the contrary just proves that they're being cheated.

[Boci]

Magic weapons and armor suitable to high level aren't in common use, and thus don't have a reduction of sale price. Other magic items, such as magic lights or bags of holding, are more common and thus would be cheaper (and were probably easily available in the loot anyways). It's a matter of supply and demand really. And honestly I do do it partly to try to discourage silly behavior - because I don't want to engage in another session of "let's spend the whole time trying to figure out ways to get the specific piece of loot we want, no matter how ill-equipped we are, to the exclusion of actually accomplishing anything and far beyond the point where it makes any sense."

Okay, so they can purchase extra dimensional storage space and (when they are high enough level) teleportation items at a reduced cost?

What else used by adventurers is also used by civilians enough that they can get it at reduced rates? Do you have a list?

Again, consistency. If you have a list and have made the players aware of it (because the list would be common knowledge in game) then they have no ground to stand on. If you haven't however, then cheated isn't the right word, but it is annoying.

[WarKitty]

Okay, so they can purchase extra dimensional storage space and (when they are high enough level) teleportation items at a reduced cost?

What else used by adventurers is also used by civilians enough that they can get it at reduced rates? Do you have a list?

Again, consistency. If you have a list and have made the players aware of it (because the list would be common knowledge in game) then they have no ground to stand on. If you haven't however, then cheated isn't the right word, but it is annoying.

Not really - that's more bookkeeping than I want to do. And teleportation isn't on the list in any case because the whole effect is levelcapped.

I guess I want consistency without having to basically re-write every list in the DMG and come up with a complete economic system in the game. That's way too much work to expect just because it's either that or use a frankly asinine system. Really even at list prices we're talking about stuff that would be pretty money-grubbing at higher levels (cool, here's your extra 55gp when your backup weapon is worth 8000). You don't want to spend lots of time on stuff that's not worth a whole lot, put points into the appraise skill.

Honestly I wish people were willing to play games other than D&D so maybe we could learn a system that did this better. The D&D economic system is impossible to use with any degree of realism or sense in the world. But I've found most fantasy players are averse to learning another system.

[Gnoman]

I don't know. I've never played and would probably dislike game store style games, so the whole "why don't you just leave" is always a bit weird to me. What's the point of gaming if you have to search for a group? If I just want to relax with some fantasy I'd play a video game or read a book or something.


Do you have any aversion to VTTs? I run a Maptool game that's always recruiting.


As for your specific problem, one thing that I haven't seen anybody suggest is having the party constantly harrassed by lower-level thieves attracted by the huge amount of junk they're carrying around. They might not be a real threat, but having the party constantly being woken up by a couple of kobolds trying to sneak off with a couple of candlesticks or a finding out halfling managed to sneak a cup away from them (with all the proper skill checks, so not DM fiat) just might convince them that the low-grade garbage is more trouble than it's worth.

[Tzi]

The main trouble I've had is that if they don't recognize it, it is potentially valuable and must be taken. So the magical lights were just a refluffed everburning torch. So instead of looking torchlike they were glass globes with lights inside them. Really not worth much but that party operated on let's take it all and have it appraised later.

Idk, I'd out of character simply inform them that this habit is somewhat killing the spirit of the game and if your going to spend all your time looting everything not bolted to the floor you are going to be in for a boring, uninteresting, dull world with little if anything exciting.

While I've personally one had one player really try and use the raw mechanics to break the game world, I've just been firm in stating that "Look, this is really REALLY dumb and if your not into the lore, RP, and story of the game... leave or re-evaluate why your sitting at this table."

[Wardog]

Isn't this a perfect justification for using the "Load-Bearing Boss" trope?


Give them five minutes to grab what they can before they have to run. (And make sure it is clear that there is plenty of nice loot that they can grab in that time).

[Boci]

Not really - that's more bookkeeping than I want to do. And teleportation isn't on the list in any case because the whole effect is levelcapped.

Okay, so what exactly did you tell your players about this feature of the setting? And when did they find out? When they first sold loot?

[WarKitty]

Okay, so what exactly did you tell your players about this feature of the setting? And when did they find out? When they first sold loot?

I mean, I was pretty up front, this is a high magic setting. That means a lot of minor items will be be more common than normal. However people past level 5 aren't very common.

Unfortunately with the party that was really bad for this, I didn't think to tell them specifically about the economic effects until they started grabbing magic scenery. It hadn't been relevant before then in any case, so I hadn't fully thought that part through and didn't want to scrap my entire scenery for the rest of the game due to that. And of course once they'd started there's no way to say anything without it turning into a massive mess, IC or OOC, that won't just look like I'm being mean to them. I think I tried to say something and it just made them more excited.

*sigh* I like DMing, I just don't like most people. That's the problem. For all people talk about solving problems OOC I wouldn't dare tell any group of players that's not how it works when they're set on a path. That's how you make people hate you.

[Honest Tiefling]

No, that's how you honestly communicate with them. If the DM held such things from me, I'd probably think they were passive aggressive and not want to play with them. I'd rather they be up front and blunt that something I am doing is ruining things, because that is how we can ensure everyone has a good time.

If you think that they'll hate you, you might need a boost of self-confidence that they do genuinely care about your own fun, or...Ditch them. You're a DM! There's plenty of fish in the sea.

[WarKitty]

No, that's how you honestly communicate with them. If the DM held such things from me, I'd probably think they were passive aggressive and not want to play with them. I'd rather they be up front and blunt that something I am doing is ruining things, because that means they believe I am a decent human being capable of empathy and trust me not to be a jerk-face.

Somehow anything I do that starts with the idea of honestly communicating ends with either me having ticked someone off or me frustrated because it hasn't done anything (or if it has it's the wrong thing).


I dunno, maybe I should run it by my current group. I may be reading too much into my experiences as a college DM. I don't want to repeat that experience - and my current party is about to hit the super magic city. Then again, my college group had a lot of donkey butts in it.

[Boci]

I mean, I was pretty up front, this is a high magic setting. That means a lot of minor items will be be more common than normal. However people past level 5 aren't very common.

Unfortunately with the party that was really bad for this, I didn't think to tell them specifically about the economic effects until they started grabbing magic scenery. It hadn't been relevant before then in any case, so I hadn't fully thought that part through and didn't want to scrap my entire scenery for the rest of the game due to that. And of course once they'd started there's no way to say anything without it turning into a massive mess, IC or OOC, that won't just look like I'm being mean to them. I think I tried to say something and it just made them more excited.

Yeah, you need to tell them in advance about changes to the price of magical items, since WBL is a big part of the rules. I know you said they were more common, but as you noted D&D economies tend not to make that much sense, so it isn't logical to conclude that a magical item being more common would reduce its price, especially since the crafting cost would still be the same, unless you changed that as well.

[WarKitty]

Yeah, you need to tell them in advance about changes to the price of magical items, since WBL is a big part of the rules. I know you said they were more common, but as you noted D&D economies tend not to make that much sense, so it isn't logical to conclude that a magical item being more common would reduce its price, especially since the crafting cost would still be the same, unless you changed that as well.

It hadn't been relevant until that point, which is why it surprised me. My thought process was more "Hey I want this to feel more high magicy. What's a good way to do that? Oh I know, I'll use magic lights instead of regular ones." And then of course the party not only realized the were magical, but concluded without rolls that they were a particular and much more expensive spell than they were. And they didn't want to be turned away and I couldn't think of any way to stop them that didn't come across as trying to cheat them.

Honestly even if I'd have given them the list price at that point it would have had the exact same problems as it did already. They decided it should be expensive therefore there was no way for me to not give them what they expected that wouldn't look cheap and passive-aggressive.

[Mr.Moron]

It hadn't been relevant until that point, which is why it surprised me. My thought process was more "Hey I want this to feel more high magicy. What's a good way to do that? Oh I know, I'll use magic lights instead of regular ones." And then of course the party not only realized the were magical, but concluded without rolls that they were a particular and much more expensive spell than they were. And they didn't want to be turned away and I couldn't think of any way to stop them that didn't come across as trying to cheat them.

Honestly even if I'd have given them the list price at that point it would have had the exact same problems as it did already. They decided it should be expensive therefore there was no way for me to not give them what they expected that wouldn't look cheap and passive-aggressive.


Look, if communication is off the table you've got exactly three options:

A) Stop playing with such hard-headed idiots.
B) Suck it up and play the game of floorboard-millionaire they want to play.
C) Ignore them when they're upset.

Given the circumstances you've described those are literally the only options on the table. Any in-game workarounds are just variations on B and/or C. So just pick whichever one of those options is the least distasteful to you and run with it.

There isn't to discuss here.