Outsmarting PCs

[Atsull]

Generally, in the final room of a dungeon/the final battle of some sort of conflict, i place several ordinary enemies as well as a few enemies with class levels. In the last dungeon, for example, I placed 4 goblins, 2 hobgoblins, a level 2 goblin cleric, and a level 2 hobgoblin fighter (they're only level 3) however, in the last 2 'boss battles' within the first round, someone will say 'that one has class levels. kill him now.' and every pc with a ranged weapon just fires on the cleric, who dies pretty quickly. I usually use the clerics to try and create a longer battle, with healing and undead, but I can't create that kind of encounter if he just gets gunned down.

What have you guys done as DMs to protect your squishies against smart PCs?

[OldTrees1]

There is only 1 entrance to the Boss's room(although there are 2 exits :smallbiggrin:). This allows the boss to have all their meat shields in place.
Hazardous Terrain and/or Encounter Traps(Dungeonscape) can replace some of the meat shields.

The Boss is able to construct the terrain of their room. This usually means the Boss has Cover/Concealment and more likely has both. Total Cover/Concealment exists nearby if needed.

The Boss is not defenseless. They have buffs up that help protect against and to survive from ranged(and melee) attacks including spells.

The Boss is not alone(meat shield's don't count). I usually use a Boss + Right Hand Man + Left Hand Man. This also allows me to disguise which is the true threat. All three are theats but sometimes they will misidentify who is the Boss and sometimes one of the Hands is a bigger threat than the Boss.

Eventually The Boss starts having contingencies. Two favorites of mine are Revivify and Delayed Death. However the area of Total Cover/Concealment would work for lower CR. These contingencies signals the Boss that it is time to make a fighting retreat(even when I plan for the PCs to stop the retreat).

[HMS Invincible]

Generally, in the final room of a dungeon/the final battle of some sort of conflict, i place several ordinary enemies as well as a few enemies with class levels. In the last dungeon, for example, I placed 4 goblins, 2 hobgoblins, a level 2 goblin cleric, and a level 2 hobgoblin fighter (they're only level 3) however, in the last 2 'boss battles' within the first round, someone will say 'that one has class levels. kill him now.' and every pc with a ranged weapon just fires on the cleric, who dies pretty quickly. I usually use the clerics to try and create a longer battle, with healing and undead, but I can't create that kind of encounter if he just gets gunned down.

What have you guys done as DMs to protect your squishies against smart PCs?

Bring 2 clerics, and have the other one hide behind a wall. They can have dual purpose but also be copies of each other. So one goes into melee, the other supports. If one dies, the other starts slinging spells.

[WesleyVos]

Invisible, casting illusion and summoning spells from behind cover. Have a second caster acting as a blaster. The party focuses on the second, and it usually takes a round or two for them to even pick up that there is another caster.

Also, if your problem is ranged weapons against a cleric, you should consider using the cleric as a buffer instead of a healer. Bear's endurance, Shield of faith, and a few other such spells should keep his mace swinging for a long time.

Alternatively, add a template or two. Another option might be to throw in a goblin adept with a wand of CLW, and have the cleric looking like a warrior. Switch roles around.

[Azoth]

A easy fix against low levels is to have mooks rush the pcs and engae in melee. No dropping your sword and firing a bow with a guy trying to stab your face.

Have enemies creat living walls between PCs and casters. They aren't going to get to them easily when met a shield wall and spears while the caster buffs the lines.

There are several low level teleport spells to get to a position enemies can't reach you easily. A personall favorite is a cleric spell lvl2 I think called Bewildering Substitution. This beauty swaps you and an enemy as well as swapping your appearance. Let yourself get pegged as the guy who needs to die, then pop this. Laugh maniacly as the party tries to kill each other.

Create difficult terain or bad vision effects. Ice Slick, Grease, Obscuring Mist, entangle...are all lvl1 spells that can make a fight so much harder.

[Astralia123]

Isn't a evil cleric usually be surrounded by zombies and skeletons? They can create cover and soon dash into PC formations.

Or you can just use darkness as an advantage; almost all savage humanoids have dark vision (I can't think of one that doesn't) and there is no reason for them to keep light, especially when they understand they could be aimed by multiple ranged attacks.

A especially cautious goblin leader may have guards with tower shields to keep him safe. This trick may only be used one or two times, but it is worth trying.

[backwaterj]

My typical fix is to give all the enemies class levels. Yes, this ups the overall EL (and is a bit more work on the DM's part), but for a boss fight that's more than appropriate.

If you want your clerics to not be such easy targets, never underestimate the power of Invisibility on a low-level party (remember, even if the domains aren't available, potions are cheap). This is, of course, assuming your clerics are there for buffs/heals rather than actual combat.

Remember a boss fight should be nasty, memorable, and survivable (even if "survivable" means "running away with your proverbial tail between your proverbial legs"). Make the party work for their victory, and reward them accordingly.

[frost890]

Wind wall from 3.5. It gives protection from arrows and gasses. I think it is a third lvl spell in 3.5, I haven't played much pathfinder. with it being a 3rd lvl spell it can be made permanent if need be. My party put it on a sash. It made ranged ambushes a lot harder to pull off.

[Atsull]

Isn't a evil cleric usually be surrounded by zombies and skeletons? They can create cover and soon dash into PC formations.

Or you can just use darkness as an advantage; almost all savage humanoids have dark vision (I can't think of one that doesn't) and there is no reason for them to keep light, especially when they understand they could be aimed by multiple ranged attacks.

A especially cautious goblin leader may have guards with tower shields to keep him safe. This trick may only be used one or two times, but it is worth trying.

the PCs havent gotten to a level where the enemies can summon undead.

[Sir Garanok]

A cleric with lets say a breastplate,heavy shield,shield of faith has 19 Ac.

While casting spells that don't require attack rolls he can be fighting defensively for another +2
and any creature standing in front of him gives +4 cover ac to ranged attacks.

25 ac is pretty hard for a level 2 party.No armor from magic items or dex,not even a full plate.

Illusions can be pretty helpful on "outsmarting them" too.

[Atsull]

A cleric with lets say a breastplate,heavy shield,shield of faith has 19 Ac.

While casting spells that don't require attack rolls he can be fighting defensively for another +2
and any creature standing in front of him gives +4 cover ac to ranged attacks.

25 ac is pretty hard for a level 2 party.No armor from magic items or dex,not even a full plate.

Illusions can be pretty helpful on "outsmarting them" too.

Great advice, Thanks!

[Necroticplague]

If they think they can circumvent some challenge by acting genre savy, just use their expectations against them. Maybe the enemy keeps their weakest members in the back, since those are the ones most likely to be killed by an ambush. Thus, when your PCs open fire on the backlines, the kill the least useful enemies, while giving their stronger allies time to react and close in. If they see a dude in plate and holy symbol, and target him, then have an encounter where the plate-and-symbol is just a particularly pious warrior, with the actual cleric wearing robes (enchanted, of course), whose holy symbol is actually a tattoo, ritualistic scar, or brand upon their own flesh.

[nyjastul69]

. ..While casting spells that don't require attack rolls he can be fighting defensively for another +2...

Be sure to ask your DM about this one. Fighting defensively can only be done while attacking. Some spells are attacks without attack rolls. Some spells aren't considered attacks at all and wouldn't be usable with the fighting defensively option.

[Atsull]

Be sure to ask your DM about this one. Fighting defensively can only be done while attacking. Some spells are attacks without attack rolls. Some spells aren't considered attacks at all and wouldn't be usable with the fighting defensively option.

I am the DM

[nyjastul69]

I am the DM

Then you are in the enviable position of deciding for yourself how those interactions work. =)

[Astralia123]

It is really dangerous to get PCs a very-high-AC enemy that most of them have lower than 15% hit chance.

For a 2nd level party, such an enemy can easily live on for 5 rounds or more, and possibly double in length if he has minions.

Even a +0 or +2 attack bonus is dangerous enough then. It is not unlikely that he may score one or more critical hits against PCs, who may have run out their hp when they fight the minions (or not, depending on their luck that day).

I'd suggest you to make such an enemy extra vulnerable when he fights alone (like being apparently overweight and without proficiency with that armor, thus he can be easily thrown down his feet, which could be a group grapple without actually opposed checking). Or he may drop his weapon and try to escape when all minions are slain.

Of course, if the PCs are clever enough, such an enemy is easy to defeat even without such apparent weakness; they can aid the one with greatsword and flank the enemy at same time, and one or two of them may have trip weapons. A 10% hit chance can be easily made to 50% or higher hit chance. (But you see not too many starting groups are that clever.)

[Sir Garanok]

After searching a bit

SRD says:
You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since both of those require you to declare an attack or full attack). You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.

So you can't fight defensively and cast(not requiring attack roll spells),unless you want to make a house rule as a dm.

Anyway a very high ac enemy can be lethal
or make the encounter boring since they can't hit him and you have a lot of extra rounds just waiting for the good roll to take him down.

Know the pc's to-hit modifiers and act accordingly.

[atemu1234]

Have them wear full plate, have twelve dexterity, and have partial cover from the hob fighters.

[Wolfepuppy]

Just one broad suggestion, don't be afraid to give your PCs something they can't handle as long as it's possible for them to get out sine how. Always giving them things they can defeat makes then bull headed and take for granted that they can't not succeed. I usually try to do this early on. So don't be too worried about building your big boss guy up. If they can't handle it they need to recognize that they're not the badest people out there

[Atsull]

Just one broad suggestion, don't be afraid to give your PCs something they can't handle as long as it's possible for them to get out sine how. Always giving them things they can defeat makes then bull headed and take for granted that they can't not succeed. I usually try to do this early on. So don't be too worried about building your big boss guy up. If they can't handle it they need to recognize that they're not the badest people out there

Good idea.