Animating a Sack

[Haluesen]

Hello Playground, I seek your knowledge for my main 3.5 game. I'm making certain special item/gifts for the players in said game, and due to an interesting in-game joke I want to give one of them an animated object, a burlap sack. I have a lot of questions to make this work well though:

1. Should the sack be made of some other material? What would it's hardness be as burlap, or of some other acceptable material?
2. What size would an animated sack count as, Small or Medium?
3. What potential special attacks/qualities would said sack have?
4. I intend to make this animated object act as something like a familiar or companion. To balance this out for the game, how would I handle that? What stats would improve, what abilities could be gained, what might change?

I need to have this done by the Monday after next, and I don't really know where to get started. Please Playgrounders, aid this DM working out of his comfort zone! :smallsmile:

[Inevitability]

I like this. On a related note, have you considered making the sack a kleptomaniac?

1. It says paper/cloth has hardness 0 here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Breaking_and_Entering#Table:_Substance_Hardnes s_and_Hit_Points). Maybe make it 1 if the material is really strong.

2. Depends. There are many kinds of sack, after all. I'd make it small myself.

3. Er... ability to float seems useful. The sack crawling over the ground is silly, after all. Maybe let it engulf someone, or at least constrict heads darkmantle style. A sack completely covering its opponent's head looks like a fun ability to me. Maybe add in a limited form of telekineses.

No natural attacks, though, except for maybe the constrict mentioned above.

4. Hm... How's this?

Animated Sack
Small Construct
1d10+10 (15 HP)
Speed 5 ft. (1 square); Fly 30 ft. (poor)
Initiative: +3
Armor Class 14 (+3 dexterity, +1 size); touch 14; flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple +0/-3
Attack Sack +3 melee touch (0)
Full-Attack Sack +3 touch (0)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Improved Grab, Constrict
Special Qualities Low-light vision, Darkvision 60 ft., Construct Traits
Saves Fort +0 Ref +3 Will +0
Abilities Str 12, Dex 16, Con -, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 11
Skills: Appraise +4, Hide +10, Search +1
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Challenge Rating 1
Alignment Usually neutral
Level Adjustment -

Improved Grab (Ex) If the Animated Sack hits an opponent with its Sack attack, it can attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Constrict (Ex) An Animated Sack deals 1d4+1 damage with each successful grapple check.

[Haluesen]

I like this. On a related note, have you considered making the sack a kleptomaniac?

1. It says paper/cloth has hardness 0 here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Breaking_and_Entering#Table:_Substance_Hardnes s_and_Hit_Points). Maybe make it 1 if the material is really strong.

2. Depends. There are many kinds of sack, after all. I'd make it small myself.

3. Er... ability to float seems useful. The sack crawling over the ground is silly, after all. Maybe let it engulf someone, or at least constrict heads darkmantle style. A sack completely covering its opponent's head looks like a fun ability to me. Maybe add in a limited form of telekineses.

No natural attacks, though, except for maybe the constrict mentioned above.

4. Hm... How's this?

Animated Sack
Small Construct
1d10+10 (15 HP)
Speed 5 ft. (1 square); Fly 30 ft. (poor)
Initiative: +3
Armor Class 14 (+3 dexterity, +1 size); touch 14; flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple +0/-3
Attack Sack +3 melee touch (0)
Full-Attack Sack +3 touch (0)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Improved Grab, Constrict
Special Qualities Low-light vision, Darkvision 60 ft., Construct Traits
Saves Fort +0 Ref +3 Will +0
Abilities Str 12, Dex 16, Con -, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 11
Skills: Appraise +4, Hide +10, Search +1
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Challenge Rating 1
Alignment Usually neutral
Level Adjustment -

Improved Grab (Ex) If the Animated Sack hits an opponent with its Sack attack, it can attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Constrict (Ex) An Animated Sack deals 1d4+1 damage with each successful grapple check.


Thank you! :smallbiggrin: Funny how in game jokes can become so much more. Just a failed Search check and some flavor text turned into this. I'll address your ideas point by point.

1. Thanks, I totally forgot about these charts. That'll work to start, though since this is intended to be a fairly long-running ally to her, there might need to be some way to magically improve this over time.

2. Small makes the most sense, but those stats make sense too and small makes successful grappling hard. Might just have to make it a somewhat bigger Medium sack so that the grappling works better.

3. These I like. Floating around and constricting, perfect. :smallsmile:

4. Having the animated object stats do help, but with that question I was looking more for some way that the sack would improve over levels. Similar to the wizard's familiar, but I don't think that boosted Int and sharing spells would work very well in this case. I need some form of improvement over increasing levels to keep the animated sack buddy useful.

[ranagrande]

You could have it advance by Construct HD like an Artificer's Homunculus. Since the Sack has an intelligence score, it would gain skills and feats that way too.

[Sir Garanok]

You can make it an intelligent item

It could give +3 on search checks to the master.

I don't see why not leave almost everything else the same.

Nat armor and intelligence gains.

Alertness, Improved Evasion, Share Spells, Empathic Link
Deliver Touch Spells
(You can easily trick the opponent to touch the sack himself,especially with an illusion or constrict and deliver)
Speak with Master
Speak with Animals of Its Kind
That could be switched to communicating with constructs,or having the ability to find out what a container like a chest or bag of holding has in,
or being able to make appraise checks for something put inside the sack.
Spell Resistance
Scry on Familiar

Maybe some appearance changes after a few levels,so it wouldn't look like a common sack.

[Haluesen]

You could have it advance by Construct HD like an Artificer's Homunculus. Since the Sack has an intelligence score, it would gain skills and feats that way too.

I haven't actually looked at that, despite having heard both words a few times in Playground. Where might I find the Artificer, to look into this? And yeah, the intelligence and benefits thereof would be helpful. :smallsmile:


You can make it an intelligent item

It could give +3 on search checks to the master.

I don't see why not leave almost everything else the same.

Nat armor and intelligence gains.

Alertness, Improved Evasion, Share Spells, Empathic Link
Deliver Touch Spells
(You can easily trick the opponent to touch the sack himself,especially with an illusion or constrict and deliver)
Speak with Master
Speak with Animals of Its Kind
That could be switched to communicating with constructs,or having the ability to find out what a container like a chest or bag of holding has in,
or being able to make appraise checks for something put inside the sack.
Spell Resistance
Scry on Familiar

Maybe some appearance changes after a few levels,so it wouldn't look like a common sack.

I don't know about using the strict intelligent item rules, but intelligence would be helpful.

With the basic stats that it would start with, it would remain something to be protected and wouldn't be much fun. Hence why I am asking about improvements. But these ideas for raising it are pretty good. The nat armor would be useful though, evasion and link stuff. The spell related ones wouldn't really work here though since the character has no magic. But the speaking thing! That would be cool. :smallcool: I'd definitely incorporate that. Thank you!

[Bullet06320]

3rd party but the book of familiars has rules for animated objects as familiars

[frost890]

Disk world has something like this. It is a chest made from living wood. it can open you toss your old socks in and when it reopens your cloths are clean. once a thug saw it open and it was full of gold, it then slammed shut. Then he tried to pry it open and it was a mouth full of teeth that gobbled him right up.

Can anyone take something from the sac or just the one who put it there? if it is an intelligent item how smart is it? will it know the difference between a monster trying to eat its master and a serving lass grabbing him to place a kiss on his lips? Maybe the guards will open the bag of the dirty half-elf and find things that have been taken from the shop keep by a bag with a rouge class level..will it have some odd trait? will they wake up every morning with it curled up next to them like a dog? who knows the mind of a sack.

[EisenKreutzer]

I am envisioning a burlap sack walking around with it's corners for legs, and the sacks opening is it's giant mouth.

[Haluesen]

3rd party but the book of familiars has rules for animated objects as familiars

I might have that one actually. It was pretty complicated if I remember right. But I'll look into it, maybe give me ideas for a for a more simplified set up that works.


Disk world has something like this. It is a chest made from living wood. it can open you toss your old socks in and when it reopens your cloths are clean. once a thug saw it open and it was full of gold, it then slammed shut. Then he tried to pry it open and it was a mouth full of teeth that gobbled him right up.

Can anyone take something from the sac or just the one who put it there? if it is an intelligent item how smart is it? will it know the difference between a monster trying to eat its master and a serving lass grabbing him to place a kiss on his lips? Maybe the guards will open the bag of the dirty half-elf and find things that have been taken from the shop keep by a bag with a rouge class level..will it have some odd trait? will they wake up every morning with it curled up next to them like a dog? who knows the mind of a sack.

Heh one heck of a chest. :smalltongue:

Haven't decided on that, probably only whoever the sack trusted. I will probably make it intelligent but probably only just enough to be interacted with effectively, more than likely just 10 or 12. That intelligence should cover the next question, though for completeness sake the character in question is a girl. But all that mystery, that is half the reason I plan to make this work. :smallbiggrin: That entire previous session was full of jokes on the wisdom and power of the sack, and it hasn't even been improved yet. It's still just a sack of fruit and grain.


I am envisioning a burlap sack walking around with it's corners for legs, and the sacks opening is it's giant mouth.

This one might fly around, I like that idea. Dive from above and gobble someone's head. :smallcool:

[Ettina]

Disk world has something like this. It is a chest made from living wood. it can open you toss your old socks in and when it reopens your cloths are clean. once a thug saw it open and it was full of gold, it then slammed shut. Then he tried to pry it open and it was a mouth full of teeth that gobbled him right up.

Can anyone take something from the sac or just the one who put it there? if it is an intelligent item how smart is it? will it know the difference between a monster trying to eat its master and a serving lass grabbing him to place a kiss on his lips? Maybe the guards will open the bag of the dirty half-elf and find things that have been taken from the shop keep by a bag with a rouge class level..will it have some odd trait? will they wake up every morning with it curled up next to them like a dog? who knows the mind of a sack.

I loved that chest!

[Seclora]

Disk world has something like this. It is a chest made from living wood. it can open you toss your old socks in and when it reopens your cloths are clean. once a thug saw it open and it was full of gold, it then slammed shut. Then he tried to pry it open and it was a mouth full of teeth that gobbled him right up.

Can anyone take something from the sac or just the one who put it there? if it is an intelligent item how smart is it? will it know the difference between a monster trying to eat its master and a serving lass grabbing him to place a kiss on his lips? Maybe the guards will open the bag of the dirty half-elf and find things that have been taken from the shop keep by a bag with a rouge class level..will it have some odd trait? will they wake up every morning with it curled up next to them like a dog? who knows the mind of a sack.

Wasn't just living wood, it was Sapient Pearwood, the most magical sort of tree in existence, only known to grow where immense amounts of magic have been expended in battle. The Luggage is the ultimate form of Animated Object.

Please make the Sack intelligent, crazy things like that are the ones players remember.

[Haluesen]

Wasn't just living wood, it was Sapient Pearwood, the most magical sort of tree in existence, only known to grow where immense amounts of magic have been expended in battle. The Luggage is the ultimate form of Animated Object.

Please make the Sack intelligent, crazy things like that are the ones players remember.

Intelligence and personality are the one thing I am certain the Sack are getting. :smallsmile:

The class that the character has does have a sort of companion class feature, I might be able to allow the animated sack to count as the companion for the purposes of increasing stats and abilities. The stats that Dire_Stirge gave above seem like a nice place to start. :smallbiggrin: Though I still think I may need it to be Medium, so grapple/constrict tactics are actually viable. I also liked Sir Garanok's idea of having it speak to other containers or even constructs. So this is coming together pretty well so far.

[Sir Garanok]

And the activating phrase to attack would be...

You suck!!!

[Bullet06320]

though for completeness sake the character in question is a girl.

turn the sack into an animated purse, high end designer or sumthing, lol, what girl wouldn't want a fancy purse

[KerlanRayne]

Talking about the sack flying and walking on its corners makes me think of the flying carpet from Disney's Aladdin. It definitely had personality and intelligence.

[unseenmage]

Okay, Animated Object is the way to go.

There are RAI two ways to go about this, the Animate Objects spell and the Craft Construct feat. In Pathfinder they explicitly say you can make the Animated Objects through either means. In 3.x it is only inferred. The difference is as great as it is small. Animated Objects created by the spell can be Dispelled and are potentially turned off by an Antimagic Field. Its a very anticlimactic and unfun way to lose a cherished Construct companion. If created by the feat as a custom Wondrous Item of continuous Animate Objects then it is only suppressed by the Dispel and the Antimagic Field. A much better option for an NPC.

But wait there's more, you wanted Intelligence in your Construct. There are exactly three ways to do this. Four if you allow PF material. There's an option in a Dragon magazine somewhere that allows you to build a brain in a jar into your Construct to make it intelligent. It is overpriced but you retain command of the minion.
There is the Awaken Construct spell in Spell Compendium which is good but you lose control of the Construct.
Then PF has the option to build intelligence right into your Construct and you retain control IIRC, and it is pricey.

Then there's the option you actually want, the Minor Servitor spell. it is exactly like Animate Objects but it grants intelligence and free will. It is also Dispellable unless you make the Construct via the Craft Wondrous Item feat making it a custom Wondrous Item of continuous Minor Servitor. Note that the Awaken Construct spell was supposed to be the errataed version of Minor Servitor and that Minor Servitor is found only in the 3.0 Savage Species book. But if you're the DM that all matter very little.


As for movement an empty cloth sack should already be able to fly very poorly and will have a carrying Capacity that will limit how full it can be before it won't be able to fly (up to its light load IIRC).

Edit: Constructs are also Magic items so they could work with the Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) feat if the Dm allows. Would give you a more rules based means of connecting the Construct to a player than just DM fiat.

[Haluesen]

And the activating phrase to attack would be...

You suck!!!

Heh maybe. I'll advise the player on the matter. :smalltongue:


turn the sack into an animated purse, high end designer or sumthing, lol, what girl wouldn't want a fancy purse

While an interesting idea, she is pretty adamant on it remaining the sack. It is part of the running joke, just a random dungeon sack given life. :smallsmile:


Talking about the sack flying and walking on its corners makes me think of the flying carpet from Disney's Aladdin. It definitely had personality and intelligence.

That's just more evidence that this sack deserves intelligence. It worked before, it shall work here. :smallbiggrin:


Okay, Animated Object is the way to go.

There are RAI two ways to go about this, the Animate Objects spell and the Craft Construct feat. In Pathfinder they explicitly say you can make the Animated Objects through either means. In 3.x it is only inferred. The difference is as great as it is small. Animated Objects created by the spell can be Dispelled and are potentially turned off by an Antimagic Field. Its a very anticlimactic and unfun way to lose a cherished Construct companion. If created by the feat as a custom Wondrous Item of continuous Animate Objects then it is only suppressed by the Dispel and the Antimagic Field. A much better option for an NPC.

But wait there's more, you wanted Intelligence in your Construct. There are exactly three ways to do this. Four if you allow PF material. There's an option in a Dragon magazine somewhere that allows you to build a brain in a jar into your Construct to make it intelligent. It is overpriced but you retain command of the minion.
There is the Awaken Construct spell in Spell Compendium which is good but you lose control of the Construct.
Then PF has the option to build intelligence right into your Construct and you retain control IIRC, and it is pricey.

Then there's the option you actually want, the Minor Servitor spell. it is exactly like Animate Objects but it grants intelligence and free will. It is also Dispellable unless you make the Construct via the Craft Wondrous Item feat making it a custom Wondrous Item of continuous Minor Servitor. Note that the Awaken Construct spell was supposed to be the errataed version of Minor Servitor and that Minor Servitor is found only in the 3.0 Savage Species book. But if you're the DM that all matter very little.


As for movement an empty cloth sack should already be able to fly very poorly and will have a carrying Capacity that will limit how full it can be before it won't be able to fly (up to its light load IIRC).

Edit: Constructs are also Magic items so they could work with the Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) feat if the Dm allows. Would give you a more rules based means of connecting the Construct to a player than just DM fiat.

Wow, thank you for the breakdown here. This is the kind of information I really need but hadn't considered. Only Animate Objects came to mind to me, with a permanency. For conversations sake, would the permanency be subject to dispelling as well, or would that just make the Animation suppressed? But the Craft Construct sounds the best, they know a guy in game that can help them with that. And it might be a good invite into more quests or plot-hook sorta things. :smallwink:

I do not mind using PF sources but I do want to be able to actually look at whatever option is being considered, so the Dragon Magazine one may be hard. But Minor Servitor sounds pretty awesome, and I know where to find that to look into it in more detail. It sounds like a winner already. :smallsmile:

I can also see what the player thinks of Item Familiar, though how much it will work is debatable. The character's class has a feature that gives something that amounts to an animal companion, but we hadn't actually made it yet (she's a new player who joined the group about a month ago), and giving the sack those traits are part of the plan. But I do not think that just giving it those bonuses will be enough to make it match up to the rest of the group; hence this thread. But all of those ideas for intelligence and animation and such are very very helpful to making this sack a member of the crew for many adventures to come. :smallbiggrin:

[unseenmage]

...

Wow, thank you for the breakdown here. This is the kind of information I really need but hadn't considered. Only Animate Objects came to mind to me, with a permanency. For conversations sake, would the permanency be subject to dispelling as well, or would that just make the Animation suppressed? But the Craft Construct sounds the best, they know a guy in game that can help them with that. And it might be a good invite into more quests or plot-hook sorta things. :smallwink:

I do not mind using PF sources but I do want to be able to actually look at whatever option is being considered, so the Dragon Magazine one may be hard. But Minor Servitor sounds pretty awesome, and I know where to find that to look into it in more detail. It sounds like a winner already. :smallsmile:

I can also see what the player thinks of Item Familiar, though how much it will work is debatable. The character's class has a feature that gives something that amounts to an animal companion, but we hadn't actually made it yet (she's a new player who joined the group about a month ago), and giving the sack those traits are part of the plan. But I do not think that just giving it those bonuses will be enough to make it match up to the rest of the group; hence this thread. But all of those ideas for intelligence and animation and such are very very helpful to making this sack a member of the crew for many adventures to come. :smallbiggrin:

Yes, Permanency can also be Dispelled/Antimagic Fielded as well. What's weird is that there is some ambiguity and interpretation required to figure out exactly what it is Permanancy even does.
One interpretation is that it changes the duration of the affected spell. The more RAW interpretation would seem to say that the Permanency has its own permanent duration and that so long as it is in place the associated spell continues to affect the subject.
We had this come up in a game I'm playing a Spellthief in. Turns out that if both spells are considered to be active taking either out shuts down an Animated Object who has Permanency affecting Animate Objects by Steal Spell-ing either spell.

Well if you don't mind using the PF material then here's the info for Constructs (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/magic/buildingAndModifyingConstructs.html). Under Complex Modifications it is the Brain modification.

And it would appear that I lied to you though. There is another 3.x way to give a Construct intelligence. The Sacred Guardian template from Dragonlance Bestiary of Krynn is the absolute cheapest way to go about it. On the upside you retain command of the Construct, on the downside your Construct has to be associated with a deity which gives it superpowers associated with that deity.
What's worse though is the thing gets Fasthealing and a slew of other abilities that are too much for the gp cost. Very OP, especially on smaller Constructs.
Edit: Yeah, forgot another one. As Constructs are technically Magic Items they can be made Intelligent Magic Items as per the DMG/SRD. remember though that this is a rules interpretation, albeit one with plenty of evidence. Evidence isn't proof though so beware.

Minor Servitor would be the way I'd definitely go.

Remember though, as DM you aren't tethered to any of these rules and I've been giving them to you from my, the player's, perspective. Should be much easier for a DM to use these ideas for inspiration and to gauge power levels than it is for a player to buy them.