3.P Gestalt Gish

[AvatarVecna]

Hello, playgrounders! I've come before you to make a request of more capable optimizers than myself!

The title says it all--well, not quite. The catch is that one side must be pure mundane, and the other must have spellcasting. Also, it starts at ECL 1.

I've got a number of ideas for what to do on the spellcasting side (mostly, I'm trying to stick to buffing and utility, with some BFC thrown in), but I'm not familiar enough with gishes to know what's best, and the handbooks I've found don't seem to have what I'm looking for.

Skills are not an issue; I'm looking for overall effectiveness. What mundane class(es) combine particularly well with spellcasting attached. In particular, I'm looking for a way to attach spells to thrown weapons, since I'm much more familiar with the thrown weapons rules, but I'm not too picky. Any mundane combat style that combines well in gish-mode is great.

Aaaaaaaand...go!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?275093-its-a-villain-sort-of#5), but make it Half-Orc Paragon 1/ Paladin 19 for the mundane side, possibly choosing nonspellcasting paladin from CW to make it completely mundane.

For the caster side, go Sorcerer 5/ Abjurant Champion 3/ Sacred Exorcist 1/ Abjurant Champion 2/ Incantatrix 4/ Paragnostic Apostle 5. You can pick up Divine Defiance at 9th thanks to Sacred Exorcist, and use the Domain Access ACF in CC at Sorcerer 5 to get the Inquisition domain. Say you visited the Otyugh Hole in CS to get Iron Will to qualify for Incantatrix without spending a feat on it. Take Ancestral Relic and make it a custom Runestaff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) to get around the normally limited number of spells known.

Use Power Attack with (Lesser Rod of Extended and later Persistent) Wraithstrike, Polymorph or (Persistent) Draconic Polymorph to take the form of a strong creature (War Troll), and use spells to buff your stats and AC, and don't forget (Persistent) Greater Invisibility. Have a few efficient crowd controls (Glitterdust, Web, Freezing Fog, Reverse Gravity) to start off an encounter, then go duke it out with the most dangerous opponent.

[Astralia123]

Hello, playgrounders! I've come before you to make a request of more capable optimizers than myself!

The title says it all--well, not quite. The catch is that one side must be pure mundane, and the other must have spellcasting. Also, it starts at ECL 1.

I've got a number of ideas for what to do on the spellcasting side (mostly, I'm trying to stick to buffing and utility, with some BFC thrown in), but I'm not familiar enough with gishes to know what's best, and the handbooks I've found don't seem to have what I'm looking for.

Skills are not an issue; I'm looking for overall effectiveness. What mundane class(es) combine particularly well with spellcasting attached. In particular, I'm looking for a way to attach spells to thrown weapons, since I'm much more familiar with the thrown weapons rules, but I'm not too picky. Any mundane combat style that combines well in gish-mode is great.

Aaaaaaaand...go!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?376257-Gestalt-Gish-help
See this thread.

Now you have 4 or more good PrCs (I don't really count) that provide you with 3 of the most important class feature a gish should have: armored casting (or effective armor bonus), spell channeling and attack-while-casting.

On gestalt rules, consult your DM because it may vary a lot, and I've no idea which alternative your DM adopt. If you wish to see the rule texts, look it up in Unearthed Arcana.

I've no idea how you channel spells with thrown weapon, but let me look it up.

[Astralia123]

The classes that provide spell channeling, according to my knowledge, includes Duskblade, Spellsword, Ordained Champion and Raumathari Battlemage. It seems that the channeling ability itself is universal, so you do not need to worry about class lists.

Spellsword and Ordained Champion are not restricted with melee attacks, but with melee weapons which you may throw. Raumathari Battlemage are restricted to their bonded bastard sword, which may not be thrown (unless it is a throwing bastard sword, which is weird and potentially inconvenient, cause you lose your sword after that until your next turn. Duskblade must channel it with melee attack.

But when you say you must have one side completely mundane, there are a lot of problems with each class.
Spellsword lose too many caster levels and has a times per day limit.
Ordained Champion is a divine caster class so you must sacrifice 4 levels from your caster side.
Let's not mention Duskblade.

It seems that Raumathari Battlemage with a Throwing Returning Bastard Sword is the only surviving option, and it will be far more efficient if you use your sword in melee. You still lose some caster levels when you advance in this class, and the spells you can channel is also limited. On the other hand, channeling a spell is a free action by itself.


Anyway, if you are a master thrower at your mundane side, you can safely pour damage from distance and caster level loss is less of a concern for you. Being a Raumathari Battlemage means you can channel one spell at range per round without sacrificing your full attack, but you will not be able to cast personal targeted AMF and so on. Either spellsword and ordained champion cost you about 4 caster levels, on the other hand, so you may be later interested in some ways that acquire spells more quickly, like sublime chord (combined with divine bard variant) or suel arcanamach.
Or Nar Demonbinder? As divine spell also fulfills prerequisites, though you lose a lot of useful spells that way.

[AvatarVecna]

Thrown weapon builds usually require at least Bloodstorm Blade 4 (for free action throwing of the same weapon) and any number of Master Thrower levels, although such concepts are obviously easier to stomach when you don't have to work your way to them from ECL 1.

I'll throw in (punny!) my thrown weapons knowledge and see what it gets me...

[Bluydee]

Wu-Jen 15/Archmage 5//Warblade 20.

The purpose of this, of course, is to get Body Outside Body as a SLA. Each clone then self-replicates. You then use War Master's Charge. Everything turns into a bloody smear. The end.

(Oh, and you also get Polymorph+Giant Size as SLAs too, letting your clones use them.

[Astralia123]

Well I have to add, actually no such PrC except Urp grants you spells before "normoal" levels, while cleric spell list is not so suitable for a gish.

[Mjollnir075]

I noticed that all the above posters have suggested only 3.5 material, so let me be the first to break the chain.

Card Caster Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/card-caster-magus-archetype) might be on the right track. It's kinda meant for using a Harrow Deck as a weapon, but the actual text just says "thrown weapons", so I think it might count for everything else. Adding in Hexcrafter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/hexcrafter) adds some more BFC.

That being said, a quick build idea might be something like..
Hexcrafter Card Caster Magus 20//Warblade X/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Master Thrower X.

Maxing out your Shocking Grasp, Hexing and using Trip Shot/Weak Spot sounds like fun.