Need help building a buffer cleric.

[heavyfuel]

We're starting at lv6 and I was asked to play a heal-bot. Yeah, that's not gonna happen. What I will be playing, is a buffer/caster cleric. I won't use Persistent Spell, so don't even mention it.

What I have so far is Human Paragon 1/Cloistered Cleric 3/Human Paragon 2. I know the loss of caster level hurts, but I have to help with being the party face so the class skills from Human Paragon will really help (we're playing with the houserule "once a class skill, always a class skill").

I'm pretty dead set as far as domains go. Commerce and Travel. Fits the character I want to build, Travel offers lots of powerful spells, and Commerce has Glibness, which is just awesomesauce. I'd be willing to let go of Travel, but Commerce is staying.

What I have for you guys to work with, are my feats. Since there are no flaws allowed, I have 5 feats to work with. I wanted to go with Dynamic Priest to help with the number of turning per day so I can DMM better, which is better than plain Extra Turning. I also wanted to get Touch of Healing in there somewhere, but I'm willing to let that one go. That leaves us with 5 to 3 feats to work with. What do you guys recommend?

[heavyfuel]

No one? Inspiration is at an all time low and session is tomorrow morning, so any help is appreciate. Thanks!

[RhoTheWanderer]

Well if not using the Persistent Spell feat, Extend Spell isn't the worst thing for a buffer. You can get it for free by taking the Planning domain(SpC278). Throw on some way of lowering the metamagic cost from +1 down to +0 (or throw Extend Spell onto DMM) and encourage the party to always move quickly, and you can potentially end up carrying a decent buff across two or three encounters. The Planning domain also has quite a few divination spells, which at least can let you potentially know what you're going to be going up against (spellcaster-scout's motto: Always be prepared:smallcool:).

As a side-note, if they are requesting that you be a heal-bot, I assume they're not familiar with the Healing Belt(MIC110; 750gp)? Personally, I've recently grown quite attached to it. I've never tried Touch of Healing, but it's something that would probably be worth it; especially if they have the tendency to get hurt badly and frequently enough to the extent that you're going through wands of CLW quicker than Taco Bell goes through tortillas.

And kudos to you for making good use of glibness! It truly is an underutilized spell in most of the D&D groups with which I've played.

[MilesTiden]

I would actually suggest DMM quicken, for in combat buffing.

[heavyfuel]

Well if not using the Persistent Spell feat, Extend Spell isn't the worst thing for a buffer. You can get it for free by taking the Planning domain(SpC278). Throw on some way of lowering the metamagic cost from +1 down to +0 (or throw Extend Spell onto DMM) and encourage the party to always move quickly, and you can potentially end up carrying a decent buff across two or three encounters. The Planning domain also has quite a few divination spells, which at least can let you potentially know what you're going to be going up against (spellcaster-scout's motto: Always be prepared:smallcool:).

As a side-note, if they are requesting that you be a heal-bot, I assume they're not familiar with the Healing Belt(MIC110; 750gp)? Personally, I've recently grown quite attached to it. I've never tried Touch of Healing, but it's something that would probably be worth it; especially if they have the tendency to get hurt badly and frequently enough to the extent that you're going through wands of CLW quicker than Taco Bell goes through tortillas.

And kudos to you for making good use of glibness! It truly is an underutilized spell in most of the D&D groups with which I've played.

Extend Spell might not be all that bad... What feat, besides DMM, would suggest to bring it to a +0?

Whether they know about Healing Belt or not, I was asked to play a Cleric so I can heal them. Regardless of who knows what and of my build, I'll be bringing Wands of Lesser Vigor to at least help with the healing, but I don't want this to be my only job.

Really? Glibness is a spell that had to be banned from a table I played at for some player abusing it :smallbiggrin: (wasn't me)


I would actually suggest DMM quicken, for in combat buffing.

I actually considered DMM Quicken, but that's two feats for 1/day Quicken...Not that great. I was actually thinking something along the lines of Reach + Chain Spell, unfortunately, Reach is a +2 MM feat, when I could swear it was a +1. This tiny detail basically flushed the whole build down the toilet.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You could limit yourself to only party-wide buffs with persist, such as elation, mass lesser vigor, recitation, and righteous wrath of the faithful. Just using it with mass lesser vigor will give them exactly what they want without forcing you to be a heal-bot, so everyone wins. Definitely grab at least one level of paragnostic apostle for spatial awareness asap in this case, since it will further buff elation.

[heavyfuel]

You could limit yourself to only party-wide buffs with persist, such as elation, mass lesser vigor, recitation, and righteous wrath of the faithful. Just using it with mass lesser vigor will give them exactly what they want without forcing you to be a heal-bot, so everyone wins. Definitely grab at least one level of paragnostic apostle for spatial awareness asap in this case, since it will further buff elation.

The reason I don't want Persist isn't that it's OP, is that I'm currently playing a Spelldancer Persist Cleric at another table and don't want to play with basically the same mechanics.

[sideswipe]

seconding DMM quicken,

if you are asked to play healbot and you oblige, why not DMM empower, and DMM quicken, for 8 turns you could heal a lot with 2 cure critical wounds. until you get heal... then you just quicken it to heal 300 a turn.

hey healing may be sub optimal, but i have had so much fun playing a healbot its unreal. my two favourite characters have been healbots.

[heavyfuel]

You can't use DMM twice in a round as it's a Divine feat.

And still, it's 2 feats for basically 1/day Quicken. I'm really not convinced.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The reason I don't want Persist isn't that it's OP, is that I'm currently playing a Spelldancer Persist Cleric at another table and don't want to play with basically the same mechanics.

You could go DMM: Persist, have a limited number of spells you can persist, and only use it to buff the whole party. Otherwise maybe just tell this group that you're already playing a Cleric in another game and that you want to play something different, make someone else be the heal-bot. At this level everyone can have a Healing Belt, you can pool for a Rod of Bodily Restoration, and anyone with at least one level of Ranger, Cleric, Paladin, Bard, etc. can use a Wand of CLW or preferably Lesser Vigor, so you don't exactly need someone who can cast healing spells. Just make whatever character you want to play and forget the role you're being shoehorned into.

[heavyfuel]

Hmmm... Not a Cleric. Now that's something I might have need to hear. My original plan when coming to this new table was playing a DFI Bard. I've had NPCs DFI Bards before, but never got to actually play one. Could a Bard do a good job healing? Maybe something along the lines of Bard 7/Sublime Chord 2/ Something X?

I'll need to figure this out. Thanks!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hmmm... Not a Cleric. Now that's something I might have need to hear. My original plan when coming to this new table was playing a DFI Bard. I've had NPCs DFI Bards before, but never got to actually play one. Could a Bard do a good job healing? Maybe something along the lines of Bard 7/Sublime Chord 2/ Something X?

I'll need to figure this out. Thanks!

You can't start taking Sublime Chord until 11th level, due to its prerequisites. The easiest build goes Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8, and you'll want to use Silverbrow Human if going DFI. Another option would be to include a few dips along with Bard 8 prior to Sublime Chord, and advance SC with other prestige classes. A level of Sorcerer with the Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution level to get Draconic Heritage to switch your DFI damage type to sonic is an excellent choice. A single level dip into Dragon Devotee is also quite good. I'll highly recommend being good/exalted for Words of Creation and to get Ancestral Relic for a custom Runestaff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4).

Get everyone to buy a Healing Belt and get the party to pool for a Rod of Bodily Restoration and one or more Wands of Cure Light Wounds, and you'll be all set on healing.

[Curbstomp]

Burn one feat on Augment Healing. That will make Lesser Vigor your work horse. 3 HP/round for 10+CL rounds. For second level spells Close Wounds and Lesser Restoration are not bad. I would just roll around with a wand for Lesser Restoration and prep 1-2 Close Wounds. This leaves the rest of your spells and feats wide open while filling the role you were asked to cover.

[RhoTheWanderer]

Extend Spell might not be all that bad... What feat, besides DMM, would suggest to bring it to a +0? [...]Really? Glibness is a spell that had to be banned from a table I played at for some player abusing it :smallbiggrin: (wasn't me) [...] Reach is a +2 MM feat, when I could swear it was a +1.[...]
Sadly, I'm new to the concept of MM reducers, so I can't really help much there. Illumians (RoD54) with naenhoon can basically use DMM (for any MM feat he/she has) twice per day. Beyond that, there's Metamagic School Focus (CM45) which allows you to reduce the cost of a MM feat (by one spell level) 3/day for spells of a chosen school (but you'd have to have the Spell Focus feat for that school).

I think part of the reason I don't see glibness used more often is that, inside the PHB, bard is the only class that gets it (and I actually don't see too many bards in the groups I play with. I mean, I did play one a long time ago and I intend to play another one soon that'll actually be somewhat optimized, but I don't see that many others playing it), and outside of the PHB, the only way to get it is through a domain in a specific setting (that and I'm the one in my groups that tends to play clerics the most). Still an awesome spell. And, yes, bards can heal. They get a few healing spells as is, and while I'm not sure if the PrC that expands their spellcasting up to 9th level spells includes any healing spells, I do know that they get UMD. Being a cha-based caster with decent skill points and UMD as a class skill means that you could (in theory) cast any spell (via scrolls, wands, staves, ect.), including lesser vigor.

If you're willing to give up at least one more caster level, a one level dip into Hierophant (DMG189) might be right up your alley. Select divine reach as your ability, and boom, you can cast any touch spell on any target within 30ft. Sadly, you can't get in until at least 13th level, and that's assuming you hadn't lost any caster levels yet!:smallfrown:

Edit: Found a list of MM reducers! http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9876.0
Double Edit: I was referring to bard as having UMD. I wasn't sure about sublime chord, but upon looking it up, I've discovered that sublime chord does not have UMD as a class skill.

[heavyfuel]

You can't start taking Sublime Chord until 11th level, due to its prerequisites. The easiest build goes Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8, and you'll want to use Silverbrow Human if going DFI. Another option would be to include a few dips along with Bard 8 prior to Sublime Chord, and advance SC with other prestige classes. A level of Sorcerer with the Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution level to get Draconic Heritage to switch your DFI damage type to sonic is an excellent choice. A single level dip into Dragon Devotee is also quite good. I'll highly recommend being good/exalted for Words of Creation and to get Ancestral Relic for a custom Runestaff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4).

Get everyone to buy a Healing Belt and get the party to pool for a Rod of Bodily Restoration and one or more Wands of Cure Light Wounds, and you'll be all set on healing.

Oops. Had totally forgotten about the skills requirements.

Yeah, I'll see if this works out. I don't think we'll reach a really high level on this adventure, so a Sublime Chord will come online too late for my tastes.


Burn one feat on Augment Healing. That will make Lesser Vigor your work horse. 3 HP/round for 10+CL rounds. For second level spells Close Wounds and Lesser Restoration are not bad. I would just roll around with a wand for Lesser Restoration and prep 1-2 Close Wounds. This leaves the rest of your spells and feats wide open while filling the role you were asked to cover.

If I were to spend a feat on healing it would be Touch of Healing. Seems better than Agument Healing on most scenarios.


Sadly, I'm new to the concept of MM reducers, so I can't really help much there. Illumians (RoD54) with naenhoon can basically use DMM (for any MM feat he/she has) twice per day. Beyond that, there's Metamagic School Focus (CM45) which allows you to reduce the cost of a MM feat (by one spell level) 3/day for spells of a chosen school (but you'd have to have the Spell Focus feat for that school).

I think part of the reason I don't see glibness used more often is that, inside the PHB, bard is the only class that gets it (and I actually don't see too many bards in the groups I play with. I mean, I did play one a long time ago and I intend to play another one soon that'll actually be somewhat optimized, but I don't see that many others playing it), and outside of the PHB, the only way to get it is through a domain in a specific setting (that and I'm the one in my groups that tends to play clerics the most). Still an awesome spell. And, yes, bards can heal. They get a few healing spells as is, and while I'm not sure if the PrC that expands their spellcasting up to 9th level spells includes any healing spells, I do know that they get UMD. Being a cha-based caster with decent skill points and UMD as a class skill means that you could (in theory) cast any spell (via scrolls, wands, staves, ect.), including lesser vigor.

If you're willing to give up at least one more caster level, a one level dip into Hierophant (DMG189) might be right up your alley. Select divine reach as your ability, and boom, you can cast any touch spell on any target within 30ft. Sadly, you can't get in until at least 13th level, and that's assuming you hadn't lost any caster levels yet!:smallfrown:

Yeah, I might just get DMM for it if I stick with Cleric. I haven't had the time to figure out that Bard build just yet, so still facing the brick wall.

Unfortunately, I've already lost a CL by dipping Human Paragon, so losing another is a no-go. It'll take too long for me to get new spell levels if I do that.

[RhoTheWanderer]

Nonetheless, if you do find a way to work hierophant into a build, one of the nice things about it that I just noticed as I was rereading it is that, while it doesn't advance your spellcasting, it does still advance your caster level. But, yeah, you'd still be behind in terms of spell levels even if you managed to get your caster level on par.:smallsigh:

Also, upon closer examination of sublime chord, it allows you to pick spells from the bard and sorcerer/wizard spell lists. So, barring Arcane Disciple or an all-warforged party, you wouldn't get much in terms of healing spells after the 6th level bard spells.

[Gwendol]

A Bard healer could pick up Healing Hymn. With Virtuouso you will still advance that.

Or you could do a Paladin with the Divine Spirit ACF (getting rid of the mount). That will triple your Lay on Hands capability, which should cover a lot of your groups needs.

[Curbstomp]

Not really. Touch of Healing only lets you heal to 1/2 HP kind of like the Dragon Shaman ability. Unlike the Dragon Shaman ability though it requires you to burn standard actions every round.

Personally, I would prefer 6 Cloistered Cleric for your party role if I was playing it starting at level 6. Cloistered Cleric gets you all knowledge in class for Knowledge Devotion, decent skill points, and 3rd level spell-casting. The other Domains (if you can pick them) would be Plant and Wrath. Wrath gets you some boosting spells and Rhino's Rush and Plant gets you extra turning attempts as well as Entangle. I would take spontaneous domain casting as an alternate class feature for Plant and prepare Wrath spells in the Domain slots. For other spells, level 1 would lean strongly towards Lesser Vigor which when combined with Augment Healing will recover 45 HP per casting. You can also trade them out for Entangle castings if you want to control the battlefield. Second level spells would include 1-2 Close Wounds b/c 1d4+9 HP as a ranged immediate action can save you or your allies' lives. The other 2-3 spells of second level would be Bull's Strength or Bear's Endurance. And I would carry a wand of Lesser Restoration if I were you. It also conserves actions if you look at its normal casting time. A wand of Cure Light Wounds is also pretty cost effective. Third level spell slots are available to play with. Glyph of Warding can be pretty nice for a prepared trap or boosting spell, but there are literally dozens of options. These might include: Mass Aid, Delay Death, Girallon's Blessing, Light of Venya, Mass Resurgence, Mass Lesser Vigor, and Lesser Visage of the Deity.

This build's other feats would be Divine Might, Travel Devotion, and Extra Turning. Adding in the rest of the build it could crank out serious amounts of damage if it wanted to or keep its' allies alive. 3 BAB + 2 Bull's Strength + 2 (from a 14 STR) + 2 Knowledge Devotion +1 (Weapon Enhancement) +2 (charging) gets you a +12 to hit on a charge. Damage output would be [1d10 + 1 (from + 1 Bastard Sword though any weapon will do) + 2 (from a 14 STR) + 2 Bull's Strength + 2 Knowledge Devotion + 100 (Divine Might as a free action twenty times with a 16 in CHA + Lesser Visage of the Deity)] x 2 Rhino's Rush = 216 to 234 damage without a Critical if you really try for a single hit. If you utilized Girallon's Blessing with this combo instead of the sword your damage would get pretty close to 1,000 in a single round as a level 6 character. Personally I'd spread out the turning uses a bit more for Travel Devotion and more individual Divine Might strikes, but you get the idea.

[heavyfuel]

Not really. Touch of Healing only lets you heal to 1/2 HP kind of like the Dragon Shaman ability. Unlike the Dragon Shaman ability though it requires you to burn standard actions every round.

Personally, I would prefer 6 Cloistered Cleric for your party role if I was playing it starting at level 6. Cloistered Cleric gets you all knowledge in class for Knowledge Devotion, decent skill points, and 3rd level spell-casting. The other Domains (if you can pick them) would be Plant and Wrath. Wrath gets you some boosting spells and Rhino's Rush and Plant gets you extra turning attempts as well as Entangle. I would take spontaneous domain casting as an alternate class feature for Plant and prepare Wrath spells in the Domain slots. For other spells, level 1 would lean strongly towards Lesser Vigor which when combined with Augment Healing will recover 45 HP per casting. You can also trade them out for Entangle castings if you want to control the battlefield. Second level spells would include 1-2 Close Wounds b/c 1d4+9 HP as a ranged immediate action can save you or your allies' lives. The other 2-3 spells of second level would be Bull's Strength or Bear's Endurance. And I would carry a wand of Lesser Restoration if I were you. It also conserves actions if you look at its normal casting time. A wand of Cure Light Wounds is also pretty cost effective. Third level spell slots are available to play with. Glyph of Warding can be pretty nice for a prepared trap or boosting spell, but there are literally dozens of options. These might include: Mass Aid, Delay Death, Girallon's Blessing, Light of Venya, Mass Resurgence, Mass Lesser Vigor, and Lesser Visage of the Deity.

This build's other feats would be Divine Might, Travel Devotion, and Extra Turning. Adding in the rest of the build it could crank out serious amounts of damage if it wanted to or keep its' allies alive. 3 BAB + 2 Bull's Strength + 2 (from a 14 STR) + 2 Knowledge Devotion +1 (Weapon Enhancement) +2 (charging) gets you a +12 to hit on a charge. Damage output would be [1d10 + 1 (from + 1 Bastard Sword though any weapon will do) + 2 (from a 14 STR) + 2 Bull's Strength + 2 Knowledge Devotion + 100 (Divine Might as a free action twenty times with a 16 in CHA + Lesser Visage of the Deity)] x 2 Rhino's Rush = 216 to 234 damage without a Critical if you really try for a single hit. If you utilized Girallon's Blessing with this combo instead of the sword your damage would get pretty close to 1,000 in a single round as a level 6 character. Personally I'd spread out the turning uses a bit more for Travel Devotion and more individual Divine Might strikes, but you get the idea.

I realize Touch of healing only heals up to half HP, but your math for Augumented healing + Lesser Vigor is wrong. Augumented Healing reads:


Add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast.

The spell as a whole heals 2 extra HP, not 2 extra HP per instance of healing. So Lesser Vigor would heal 17 HP, not 45. It's a pretty worthless feat, whereas Touch of Healing can be used an unlimited amount of times to to heal much more than these 2 extra HP.

If you read the OP (or just the title really) you'll see that I don't want to make a Clerizilla ans so I don't care about dealing 200+ damage per round. That is easy enough. What I want is someone to buff the party. Also, the extra turning attempts from Plant Domain can't be used to fuel DMM or Divine Might because they require Turn Undead only, not any Turn.