[3.5] Blackguard spells

[Valwyn]

So I was looking at the Blackguard spell list and noticed that most of the spells are pretty bad. Is it just me? Paladins seem to have much better lists.

Other than researching spells yourself and the Mother Cyst feat, are there ways to improve the list?

PS: I know Blackguard is a bad class, but I was thinking of dipping a few levels and then advance the casting for a theoretical build.

[JaminDM]

I you take levels in one of the variant evil Paladins from unearthed arcana it is essentially like a base class version of the Blackguard

[Karnith]

The Blackguard list is fairly lackluster, yeah, and would be vastly more usable with a Battle Blessing equivalent. Blackguards, as prepared casters, have access to Corrupt spells, so that's something - Lahm's Finger Darts is nothing to sneeze at, if nothing else.

Also, you can use Blackguard to qualify for Nar Demonbinder (if you can finagle the skills), which is cool, albeit a cop-out.

[jedipotter]

I often give Blackguards all the paladin spells, altered to evil.

The Core list is very slim, but you don't need to stick with Core (right?)

The Spell Compendium gives you other paladin spells like swift bless weapon, holy spurs, rhino's rush, second wind, sticky saddle and spirited charge. And that is just 1st level.

[JaminDM]

So basically, if you have a nice DM you can make it good.

[Abd al-Azrad]

In terms of raw power, the Blackguard leaves a lot to be desired. I'm reasonably fond of the Spell Compendium spell, "Blade of Pain and Fear," on the other hand - you won't have a great DC with it, but you can attack many times, and you get that nice Save debuff aura pretty early in BG levels. It's obviously not great for winning fights, but it can disrupt an enemy's momentum and give your party a chance to divide / conquer your foes.

Really, I'd call the BG a decent dipping class. A few levels give you some minor spellcasting, full BAB, a die of Sneak Attack and that nice save debuff aura. And qualifying for the class isn't terribly onerous. Going all 10 levels into it, on the other hand, has a huge opportunity cost and just doesn't offer enough power or versatility to compensate for the losses.

[ShurikVch]

I seriously doubt Mother Cyst allow Blackguard to use those spells: they are for Cleric or Wizard/Sorcerer, and Blackguard have his one separate spell list

Anyway...

"Initiate of ..." feats allow you to get extra more spells. Usually they require levels in Cleric, Paladin, or Druid, but there are some exceptions:
Initiate of Gruumsh (Champions of Ruin)
Initiate of Shar (City of Splendors: Waterdeep)
Initiate of Boccob (Dragon #342)
Initiate of Erythnul (Dragon #342)
Initiate of Hextor (Dragon #342)
Initiate of Nerull (Dragon #342)
Initiate of Obad-Hai (Dragon #342)
Initiate of Olidammara (Dragon #342)
Initiate of Vecna (Dragon #342)
Initiate of Wee Jas (Dragon #342)

Draconic feats - if you OK to pay five feats for three spells...

Also, there was Cerebrosis feat in Dragon #330. It give you bunch of Far Realm - related spells. And it's always a bonus feat (you pay WBL for it).

Also, dips in some PrCs may notably expand your spell list:
Impure Prince (Magic of Eberron)
Dread Wirch (Heroes of Horror) - Bane and Doom
Frost Mage (Frostburn)
Fiend-Blooded (Heroes of Horror)
Shadowcraft Mage (Races of Stone)

One of better ways to expand you spell list is to get domain. There are some PrC for it:
Contemplative - at 1st and 6th levels
Divine Agent - at 1st level
Divine Disciple - at 4th level

Arachnomancer - Spider
Divine Oracle - Oracle
Maiden of Pain - Pain
Seeker of the Misty Isle - Travel
Horned Harbinger - Death
Talontar Blightlord - Blightbringer
Yuan-Ti Cultist - Suffering
Dracolyte - Domination
Ordained Champion - War
Singer of Concordance - at 2nd
Wearer of Purple - one of: Death, Evil or Scalykind
Waveservant - Ocean (spells only)
Windwalker - Air and Travel (spells only)
Auspician - Fate (But class prereq. access to Luck domain)
Warpriest - Domination (But class prereq. access to one of domains: Destruction, Protection, Strength, or War)

Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment)

Domain Staves from Complete Champion

[Valwyn]

That's a lot of answers, thanks! :smallbiggrin:

I know Paladin of Tyranny is probably better, but I'm dipping three levels of BG to get dark blessing, aura of despair and command undead. (The build would be something like Monk 2/Hexblade 5/Blackguard 3/Enlightned Fist 10. Not optimal, but sounds fun to me. :smalltongue: Evasion+Mettle+Dark Blessing+Arcane Resistance, plus -4 to saves and -2 to AC to everyone around me. I'm sure there are similar and better builds out there, but I like this one.)

I don't need to stick to Core, but I don't have Dragon Magazine material. Still, doesn't hurt to know. :smallamused:

[Vortenger]

If you are a Blackguard, then BoVD, Libris Mortis, and the two fiendish codexes are your friends.

I've had great luck so far with Demon Wings for flight, Resurgence and Mass Resurgence, Sadism, Investiture of the Chain Devil (heck, there's a bunch of these and several are decent), Blade of Blood, Boneblast, Seething Eyebane, etc. There's a few gems in there though you certainly won't compare to a cleric...

I play an unarmed Blackguard, myself, so I'm fond of holding the charge on a touch spell or two. The day's first Falcon Punch is usually quite entertaining. And crippling.

[Deox]

Sadism / Masochism (Both from BoVD) + Divine Sacrifice. Enjoy the nearly endless fuel. All three on the base Blackguard list.

[ShurikVch]

Improved Oneiromancy from the Heroes of Horror will give you handful of dream-related spells

How about to dip in Battle Dancer for Cha to AC? (Or, maybe, Ascetic Mage feat?)

Try to get Hexbands from MIC (3100 gp) - Cha bonus to damage against those who under your Hexblade’s curse

And Scorpion kama (6302 gp). It deals unarmed damage, but you actually can make Iaijutsu Focus with it (also, Mosquito's Bite :smallwink: )

[Valwyn]

I've had great luck so far with Demon Wings for flight, Resurgence and Mass Resurgence, Sadism, Investiture of the Chain Devil (heck, there's a bunch of these and several are decent), Blade of Blood, Boneblast, Seething Eyebane, etc. There's a few gems in there though you certainly won't compare to a cleric...

Yup. Already been there. Demon Wings is new to me, but I already had flight covered with Animal Devotion (let's face it, those Rebuke Undead wouldn't be much use with only three levels.)

Here's a list of buffs/no-save spells I liked:
Level 1: Blade of Blood, Corrupt Weapon, Demonflesh, Distort Weapon, Know Greatest Enemy, Summon Undead I, Traveler's Mount
Level 2: Clarity of Mind, Demoncall, Demonhide, Devil's Eye, Divine Presence, Hand of Divinity, Increase Virulence, Investiture of the Bearded Devil, Investiture of the Chain Devil, Summon Undead II, Veil of Shadow, Zeal,
Level 3: Abyssal Might, Deific Bastion, Demon Wings, Demonhide, Fangs of the Vampire King, Hell's Power, Investiture of the Amnizu, Investiture of the Harvester Devil, Investiture of the Steel Devil, Mantle of Evil, Masochism, Sadism, Summon Undead III, Unholy Storm, Weapon of the Deity,
Level 4: Aligned Aura, Fracturing Weapon, Investiture of the Barbed Devil, Investiture of the Malebranche, Investiture of the Orthon, Manifest Death, Profane Item, Revenance, Summon Undead IV, Lesser Visage of the Deity,


I play an unarmed Blackguard, myself, so I'm fond of holding the charge on a touch spell or two. The day's first Falcon Punch is usually quite entertaining. And crippling.

I'll have to remember this. :smallamused:


How about to dip in Battle Dancer for Cha to AC? (Or, maybe, Ascetic Mage feat?)

Sadly, Ascetic Mage only works for spontaneous arcane casters.
Maybe I could trade a level of Sacred Fist, or ask my DM to trade Monk AC for Battle Dancer AC. As far as I can tell they are basically the same.


Try to get Hexbands from MIC (3100 gp) - Cha bonus to damage against those who under your Hexblade’s curse

And Scorpion kama (6302 gp). It deals unarmed damage, but you actually can make Iaijutsu Focus with it (also, Mosquito's Bite )

Thanks for the tip on the Hexbands.
I was aiming for unarmed attacks, so I probably won't be using the kama (Sacred Fists take a vow against using weapons), but unarmed damage+Iaijustsu sounds nasty. Thanks for the tip. :smalltongue:

[ShurikVch]

Sadly, Ascetic Mage only works for spontaneous arcane casters. Hexblade :smallconfused:


I was aiming for unarmed attacks, so I probably won't be using the kama (Sacred Fists take a vow against using weapons), but unarmed damage+Iaijustsu sounds nasty.
See, there is a bit of problem with the unarmed Iaijustsu. "If you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon..." But the Monk's Unarmed Strike is a whole body - you can't suddenly draw it! (Mosquito's Bite still work, because Monk's Unarmed Strike is still a light weapon)

[Sergio]

is there a list of spells one could suggest? Imagine I'm going for 5 levels of bone rider:

https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Bone_Rider_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)


Spellcasting:Every level of Bone Rider counts as two levels of Blackguard for the purposes of spells per day and available spells. A Bone Rider's caster level for these Blackguard spells is her character level.

[Inevitability]

is there a list of spells one could suggest? Imagine I'm going for 5 levels of bone rider:

https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Bone_Rider_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)


Spellcasting:Every level of Bone Rider counts as two levels of Blackguard for the purposes of spells per day and available spells. A Bone Rider's caster level for these Blackguard spells is her character level.

I suggest making a new thread for this question. Generally, posting in a thread that's been silent for more than 45 days is frowned upon.

[Sergio]

I suggest making a new thread for this question. Generally, posting in a thread that's been silent for more than 45 days is frowned upon.
thanks for the head up, I didn't want to pollute the forum with my topics. I've made many in the last days.