Persistent NPCs

[DiBastet]

So, this is not a topic to whine about persistent npcs or anything like that, ok? Actually I want to know the opinion of the DMs in the playground about this little subject.

In the games I run it always seems that the party is accompanied by at least one npcs, if not two or three. And not just DMpcs or "extra party members", but as guests, friends or people that they have to ally themselves with. Sometimes my campaigns look like some kind of bioware rpg, with guests and lots of sidequests involving these guest characters. My players love it, so I never had a problem with that.

At least not until 5e. You know, I had a pretty solid grasp on 3.5, and it was easy to customize the npcs while taking care of party power level and all those things that 3.5 considered holy. Now with 5e I'm a little torn: On one hand I could just build them as pcs, give them a character sheet and I know that would work, but on the other hand some spells that summon persistent creatures mention that the creature stays by the party's side and count as a member for treasure and experience.

With that in mind, would it be balanced to just give these npcs simple npc stats? Looking at the example npcs in the MM we can see that they don't have classes; on one hand they don't receive all the abilities a pc gains, but on the other they are much easier to stat.

What do you guys say? Do you think that if I gave these npcs a npc stat block they could still contribute to the party in a meaningful way?

[Gurka]

Well, on the one hand as DM they should always contribute as much or as little as you want them to at the time, regardless of their stat blocks. It may or may not be your play style, but when I inject persistent NPC's into a group (which I do frequently), I seldom roll dice FOR them, unless a player decides to throw down with them, or for enemies who are attacking them.

Their effectiveness and survivability is instead governed by:
1) what it needs to be for story purposes (where applicable) or,
2) how the PC's see fit to interact with/utilize the NPC. If the players take the time to actively convince an NPC to throw in with their cause, then that NPC is gonna be of more help than somebody I've foisted on them for story reasons. If they choose to send an NPC after something powerful while they deal with something else, I'm not gonna roll to see if the goon gets lucky and the big-bad gets unlucky and the enemy takes a bunch of damage (or dies) to the NPC... The badguy will be tied up for a few turns but uninjured, and the NPC will be incapacitated or dead, and then the players still deal with him. If, however, they choose to keep said NPC with them for the big brawl, he's still not gonna impact the badguy's HP much, but he may dive on the proverbial grenade for the players, or some such.

I'm all for having persistent NPC's, but I've never liked them being the "DM's" character as it were. I often have one or more NPC's that my players can choose to align themselves with who will assist them at various times so long as they remain on the same side. They might have to fight them later should their goals change.

The point is, I never let the presence or absence of the NPC's significantly effect the challenge of an encounter, so there isn't any need to adjust experience or reward the way I run them. How they utilize their NPC's will alter the outcome of the story and even some encounters, but (as much as possible) the difficulty remains the same.

Hope that made some sense.

[Baveboi]

I have done this a lot in my games. A young and swooning guard named Eriko, an older and wiser soldier name Jierdan, a Sorcerer apprentice that helps the party understand their political surroundings and a group of elves. All were fleshed as NPCs and while they were never near a PC in terms of power or abilities they were very fun to have around.

NPC stats are simple, easy to come up with on the fly and can be dreadfully strong if given class features. I would actually argue against giving them class features on a whim, just to be safe.

[infinitetech]

PNPCs are great, i use them all the time, some are running jokes, some piss people off enough to keep them going, some are that safe zone to run back to, one fave of mine that ive introduced to many groups is my old buddy Gricka Grak, he has evolved a bit over the years, but he is effectively the oldest running pawn keeper in D&D i know of, he is a special "relative" of the goblin whom had 3 stages and uses various valuable things to metamorphose and well as eat and gain abilities, he sold his legs and now rides on basically a heavily modified dwarven centurion base that has tons of magic tools in it, he uses magic construct spiders to work as enforcers, he has relics of many ages, he has an alignment of capitalist, and a religion of it as well, his only belief and goal is in accumulating wealth of any form from magic to gold to gems to secrets to favors, PNPCs are great, and remember the #1 rule, if there isnt a body they arent dead, if there is a body that only might be them, if the body is them and they are dead, they may not stay that way forever, also, you never know whom to trust...

[BW022]

You know, I had a pretty solid grasp on 3.5, and it was easy to customize the npcs while taking care of party power level and all those things that 3.5 considered holy. Now with 5e I'm a little torn: On one hand I could just build them as pcs, give them a character sheet and I know that would work, but on the other hand some spells that summon persistent creatures mention that the creature stays by the party's side and count as a member for treasure and experience.

With that in mind, would it be balanced to just give these npcs simple npc stats? Looking at the example npcs in the MM we can see that they don't have classes; on one hand they don't receive all the abilities a pc gains, but on the other they are much easier to stat.

What do you guys say? Do you think that if I gave these npcs a npc stat block they could still contribute to the party in a meaningful way?

I don't see how this is different that 3.5?

For the character sheet, you can compress and character into a rather small stat block. Ability scores, hit points, AC, special abilities, spell lists, etc. could be listed out in a monster like format. Player character typically like large sheets, but that is merely for convenience. If the NPC is in combat at lot, it might be easier having a full character sheet, but it isn't needed.

As for having NPCs with the group... yes... this will lower XP and (presumably) treasure. The CR system is designed for four PCs and sets the basis for an easy, moderate, or difficult fight. If you have a lot of NPCs near the PCs levels... this makes combats easier. The DM is either going to give out less experience or put in tougher/more creatures to make up for it.

This is way having 'permanent' NPCs with the party becomes an issue. More and tougher creatures creates issues in that combat now takes much longer, for the same amount of XP. Further, it means if something goes wrong... the individual PCs/NPCs can get slaughtered easily. If you have a group of four PCs and a good encounter is say six bugbears... fine. Add two PCs, and maybe you now need ten bugbears to take the challenge rating up. However... what happens if the bugbears get surprise and all go after one or two PCs?

D&D is a game in which the players are heroes (in the general sense). Having them saved by NPCs typically makes them less so. It takes the focus off them and their actions. Yes... good campaigns should have reoccurring and memorable NPCs, and some should help out the PCs in combat situations from time to time. However... permanent NPCs which always accompany PCs in combat roles typically not helpful. The only time I make exceptions to this is if the group is playing a pre-made module and only have two or three PCs. I'll then make a DM controlled PC to help them. Even then, my preferred method is to simply scale back the combat encounters.

[Ramshack]

I always create a character sheet for any NPC that will be traveling with the party unless, they are standard commoners in which case I grab NPC stats. But if I intend to have a Knight or a guide, or a wizard accompany the group for a specific quest and so on I definitely make the character so I can play him in combat, or have it ready to go if one of my players decides to attack the NPC for whatever reason and so on. Sometime's is an eager squire who is weaker than the party, a military general or wizard that might be stronger, a ranger guide who is on par etc.

If it's an important NPC that I need to ensure they live for a story arc later I make sure I have spells or magical equipment ready that will ensure my escape/survival etc.

[DiBastet]

Thanks for the opinions. Until we have more info on building monster / npcs stats i'll just use the pc ceation rules for them.

[infinitetech]

personally i make almost, i do mean almost every npc a sheet and back story until im over about 30 players in the group, but by then their town exploits are pretty limited anyway

id say give the npcs a base npc build then give them like rank 1 in a class if their story would fit it, then just change their level modifier, if it is a trainer or merchant of a specific character class type let them level up like a pc

[infinitetech]

personally i make almost, i do mean almost every npc a sheet and back story until im over about 30 players in the group, but by then their town exploits are pretty limited anyway

id say give the npcs a base npc build then give them like rank 1 in a class if their story would fit it, then just change their level modifier, if it is a trainer or merchant of a specific character class type let them level up like a pc