[Optimization] Evocation School Wizard

[Lokiare]

This build is for those that mistakenly think that the DPR of the Wizard is in the low range. On top of save or die/suck spells and reality shaping spells, the Wizard can be built in such a way that they can be right up there with the top damage dealers in the game. If they come within 75% of the damage of the top build then I will be satisfied that the Wizard meets the condition for 'doing what other classes do, often better' meaning they can do the same thing as the highest DPR classes in the game.

I'll also avoid cheese. I will only use the things that take 1-2 steps to do.

Here are my assumptions each encounter of the day will last 4-7 rounds averaging 6. There will be 7 encounters per day (the average of 6-8 mentioned in the DMG PDF). The build includes the ability to almost automatically pass any kind of concentration check barring massive damage so I will assume due to range and having a party in front of the wizard and the ability to snipe (jump in/out of cover with no chance of being hit) that they never fail a concentration check.

Race
Rock Gnome

HP: 142
AC: 15 (Mage Armor)
AC with Shield spell: 19 (Mage Armor)
Virtual AC with Mirror Image and Shield: 34/32/28 (assuming each hit auto succeeds against the image and each point of AC equals 5% miss chance)

Feats
Elemental Adept (fire)
War Caster
Resilient (Constitution)
Ability Score Increase (Intelligence +2)

Ability Scores
"()" = points used to buy, *=racial bonus, #=Ability Score Increase, [] = Ability Score Modifier, &=Feat
Strength: 10 (2) [+0]
Constitution: 16 (7)*1& [+3]
Dexterity: 14 (6) [+2]
Intelligence: 18 (7)#*2 [+4]
Wisdom: 10 (2) [+0]
Charisma: 10 (2) [+0]

Concentration Save Chance while taking 20 or less damage: 100%
Concentration Save Chance while taking 30 damage: 93.75%
Concentration Save Chance while taking 40 damage: 75% (http://anydice.com/program/2c8b)

Spell Save DC: 18
Spell Attack Bonus: +10

Effects added to spells from School and feats
1's are counted as 2's for fire spells. (d6 is averaged to 3.67) (http://anydice.com/program/48bf)
Successful saves from cantrips cause half damage.
Add intelligence modifier to the damage of evocation spells.
Once per day maximize the damage of a 5th level or lower spell.


Spells per Day
*=Arcane Recovery
1st(4);2nd(3);3rd(3);4th(3);5th(5)*(x2);6th(2);7th (2);8th(1);9th(1)

Signature Spells (two 3rd level spells):
Mastered Spells (one 1st and 2nd level spell): Shield, Mirror Image

Assuming an average save bonus of +3 for all abilities (in reality its closer to +2, but I'm erring on the side of making it harder for the wizard)

Cantrips
Poison Spray
Save 30% half of 4d12 + 4 (int) = 15 * 30% = 4.5
Fail 70% of 4d12 + 4 (int) = 30 * 70% = 21
Total = 25.5 DPR

Spells:
Flaming Sphere (8th level spell slot)
Save 30% half of 8d6 = 14.68 * 30% = 4.404
Fail 70% of 8d6 = 29.36 * 70% = 20.552
Total = 24.956 DPR

Flaming Sphere (7th level spell slot)
Save 30% half of 7d6 = 12.845 * 30% = 3.8535
Fail 70% of 7d6 = 25.69 * 70% = 17.983
Total = 21.8365 DPR

Flaming Sphere (6th level spell slot)
Save 30% half of 6d6 = 11.01 * 30% = 3.303
Fail 70% of 6d6 = 22.02 * 70% = 15.414
Total = 18.717 DPR

Flaming Sphere (5th level spell slot) x4 (in case of the rare failed concentration check)
Save 30% half of 5d6 =9.175 * 30% = 2.7525
Fail 70% of 5d6 = 18.35 * 70% = 12.845
Total = 15.5975 DPR

Flaming Sphere (5th level spell slot over channeled)
Save 30% half of 5d6 =15 * 30% = 4.5
Fail 70% of 5d6 = 30 * 70% = 21
Total = 25.5 DPR

Meteor Swarm
Save 30% half of 20d6 bludgeoning (70) and 20d6 fire (73.4) +4(int) = 73.7 * 30% = 22.11
Fail 70% of 20d6 bludgeoning (70) and 20d6 fire (73.4) +4(int) = 147.4 * 70% = 103.18
Total = 125.29 DPR

Fireball (4th) x3
Save 30% half of 9d6 +4 (int) = 18.515 * 30% = 5.5545
Fail 70% of 9d6+4(int) = 37.03 * 70% = 25.921
Total = 31.4755 DPR

Now in each day there is going to be an average of 42 rounds. Each combat lasts an average of 6 rounds so each of the Flaming Spheres last for 6 rounds and on each of those except the first the caster can use their cantrip poison spray, one round instead of poison spray the wizard uses Meteor Swarm. Three rounds instead of poison spray they use a 4th level fireball.

6 rounds of Flaming Sphere at 8th = 6 * 24.956 = 149.736
6 rounds of Flaming Sphere at 7th = 6 * 21.8365 = 131.019
6 rounds of Flaming Sphere at 6th = 6 * 18.717 = 112.302
18 rounds of Flaming Sphere at 5th = 18 * 15.5975 = 280.755
6 rounds of Flaming Sphere at 5th over channeled = 6 * 25.5 = 153
1 round of Meteor Swarm = 125.29
31 rounds of Poison Spray = 31 * 25.5 = 790.5
3 rounds of Fireball (4th) = 3 * 31.4755 = 94.4265
Total Damage = 1,837.3115 over the course of an average day.
Total DPR = 43.7455119047619

As you can see the number of combats don't really matter that much or even the rounds because of the way the concentration spells work. The wizard can keep the flaming spheres around for 10 rounds and they have enough 5th level slots that they can cast it 8 times at 5th level or higher.

If you disagree with any of my assumptions or math, please feel free to politely explain and if its reasonable I will alter the math to accommodate.

I've demonstrated here that the wizard is within about 13 points (or 78%) of the highest DPR in the game (that I've seen so far) for single classed characters. So in my mind it qualifies for 'doing the same thing as other classes, often better.' In this case its not better but its definitely dealing damage at an acceptable level.

[Daishain]

Dude, you can't just add DPR up like that

Take meteor swarm for instance. assuming the rest of your math is correct, the actual average damage caused is going to be 0.3*72+0.7*144, or 122.4, only a little more than half of what you've got up there.

Its late and I've got work instead of proofreading this, but take a step back and think about it for a moment.

[Sartharina]

Did you calculate the chances of enemies making their saves/not getting hit?

EDIT - Yes, I see you did.

[Lokiare]

Dude, you can't just add DPR up like that

Take meteor swarm for instance. assuming the rest of your math is correct, the actual average damage caused is going to be 0.3*72+0.7*144, or 122.4, only a little more than half of what you've got up there.

Its late and I've got work instead of proofreading this, but take a step back and think about it for a moment.


Did you calculate the chances of enemies making their saves/not getting hit?

EDIT - Yes, I see you did.

I edited that part in. I originally forgot for Meteor Swarm. I am about to edit it again because over channel is 5th level or lower.

Edit: Ok, done for the night. Tell me if you find anything a miss or have any suggestions for upping the damage.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Thoughts on using Scorching Ray and Magic Missile augmented to higher-level slots in order to maximize output based on simply multiplying your Intelligence modifier for the basis of damage output? The damage multiplier from simply spitting out tons of different damage points does add up if you have a high enough Intelligence; for example, if you spit out five darts with a 5th-level Magic Missile spell and 20 INT, you should deal (1d4+6)*5 damage total, for an average of 42.5 damage (spread out as you choose).

At the very least, I would think that Spell Sniper (or a one- or two-level dip in Warlock, depending on CHA modifier) in order to pick up Eldritch Blast as your go-to cantrip would be a good idea, considering that it's an Evocation cantrip, and all of the usual tricks involving a Warlock's Charisma modifier apply equally to an Evoker's Intelligence modifier (namely, a 17th-level Wizard will apply his INT to damage as many as four times with Eldritch Blast).

[numerek]

At the very least, I would think that Spell Sniper (or a one- or two-level dip in Warlock, depending on CHA modifier) in order to pick up Eldritch Blast as your go-to cantrip would be a good idea, considering that it's an Evocation cantrip, and all of the usual tricks involving a Warlock's Charisma modifier apply equally to an Evoker's Intelligence modifier (namely, a 17th-level Wizard will apply his INT to damage as many as four times with Eldritch Blast).

Although eldritch blast and hex are good things to pick up from warlock, it will not work like you think because empowered evocation specifically says it applies to wizard evocation spells and the whole reason your taking warlock levels is because those spells are not wizard spells. Your dm may allow it but I don't think it would be RAW.

[EugeneVoid]

What is the avg save bonus of a monster for a given CR? I can't find it.
How are you computing your to hit against its AC?

[Pex]

No room for Prismatic Spray? What Evoker is not going to cast Prismatic Spray? It's the ultimate killer rainbow. Ripe for maximizing. :smallbiggrin:

Also, an Evoker can maximize his Cantrip all day long since it's 0 x 2d6 necrotic damage taken. The additional 1d6 of each casting is added to the multiplier not the total, i.e. 0 x 3d6, 0 x 4d6, etc. It's not broken given the level it becomes available, on par to what the other wizard types get.

[Xetheral]

This build is for those that mistakenly think that the DPR of the Wizard is in the low range. On top of save or die/suck spells and reality shaping spells, the Wizard can be built in such a way that they can be right up there with the top damage dealers in the game.

I'd consider 75% of "potential" DPR to be at the upper end of "the low range", so I don't think you've demonstrated what you set out to prove. You clearly see it differently... where, in your opinion, does "the low range" end? Keep in mind that, all else equal, 75% is analogous to a -5 penalty to hit for a martial class.


If you disagree with any of my assumptions or math, please feel free to politely explain and if its reasonable I will alter the math to accommodate.

I've demonstrated here that the wizard is within about 13 points (or 78%) of the highest DPR in the game (that I've seen so far) for single classed characters. So in my mind it qualifies for 'doing the same thing as other classes, often better.' In this case its not better but its definitely dealing damage at an acceptable level.

While I agree that Wizard on-paper DPR seems acceptable (if low), I don't agree with your conclusion that the Wizard qualifies for 'doing the same thing as other classes, often better'. From the context of other posts on the forum and your use of single-quotes, I'm assuming you're using the phrase as a term of art as a reference to the balance-related concern of whether one class can replace another. Here, you've devoted the entire build to matching the DPR of another class, devoting every build choice, combat action, and every mid- and high-level spell slot to do so. Could this build stand-in (in a pinch) for another DPR focused class? Maybe: 75% is kind of iffy, particularly given problems relating to fire/poison resistance. But even if in a given party/campaign this wizard would be an effective substitute, the fact that the build has devoted so many of its resources to achieving that end obviates any balance concerns I might otherwise have.

I'd also point out that you've taken the dynamic and highly-customizable wizard and with this build removed so much in-combat flexibility that you've turned it into the wizard-equivalent of the champion fighter. That isn't necessarily a problem, but again to me suggests that the build doesn't present any balances concerns as a potential stand in for other DPR-based builds.

[Envyus]

The real problem is that Flaming sphere is a concentration spell. And that your caster will fail the check to keep the spell up eventually. It also has to reach its target.

[Demonicattorney]

No room for Prismatic Spray? What Evoker is not going to cast Prismatic Spray? It's the ultimate killer rainbow. Ripe for maximizing. :smallbiggrin:

Also, an Evoker can maximize his Cantrip all day long since it's 0 x 2d6 necrotic damage taken. The additional 1d6 of each casting is added to the multiplier not the total, i.e. 0 x 3d6, 0 x 4d6, etc. It's not broken given the level it becomes available, on par to what the other wizard types get.

I would argue there is a minimum of 1, or that cantrips do not have a spell level and are therefore excluded. It is not balanced, evoker cantrips are already more powerful than other Wizard cantrips; its an exploit which will be clarified in time,

[Ashrym]

The real problem is that Flaming sphere is a concentration spell. And that your caster will fail the check to keep the spell up eventually. It also has to reach its target.

He's got mirror image for non-concentration damage mitigation, shield spell mastered, and mage armor up, plus warcaster and resilient (CON). That's pretty decent for defense an concentration, but he's also using poison spray to take advantage of potent cantrip and the d12's damage, which means he's fighting in close range and I would agree he'll very likely to lose concentration.

He'll also drop due to damage and stop inflicting it fairly quickly without healing.

[Ashrym]

I'd consider 75% of "potential" DPR to be at the upper end of "the low range", so I don't think you've demonstrated what you set out to prove. You clearly see it differently... where, in your opinion, does "the low range" end? Keep in mind that, all else equal, 75% is analogous to a -5 penalty to hit for a martial class.



While I agree that Wizard on-paper DPR seems acceptable (if low), I don't agree with your conclusion that the Wizard qualifies for 'doing the same thing as other classes, often better'. From the context of other posts on the forum and your use of single-quotes, I'm assuming you're using the phrase as a term of art as a reference to the balance-related concern of whether one class can replace another. Here, you've devoted the entire build to matching the DPR of another class, devoting every build choice, combat action, and every mid- and high-level spell slot to do so. Could this build stand-in (in a pinch) for another DPR focused class? Maybe: 75% is kind of iffy, particularly given problems relating to fire/poison resistance. But even if in a given party/campaign this wizard would be an effective substitute, the fact that the build has devoted so many of its resources to achieving that end obviates any balance concerns I might otherwise have.

I'd also point out that you've taken the dynamic and highly-customizable wizard and with this build removed so much in-combat flexibility that you've turned it into the wizard-equivalent of the champion fighter. That isn't necessarily a problem, but again to me suggests that the build doesn't present any balances concerns as a potential stand in for other DPR-based builds.

Champion fighter of equal level vs an assumed AC 16, great weapon fighting style, great weapon master feat, +1 greatsword, 1 short rest so 4 action surges allowed (184 attacks):

15% 8.33+8.33+5+10+1 with additional chances to bonus attack on crits
45% 8.33+5+10+1
40% miss chance

.45*(184*24.33)=2014.524
.15*(184*32.66)=901.416

Bonus attacks from crits: 47.799375% (higher on action surge rounds, omitted because I don't care to work it out as small impact overall) chance per round = 20.0757375 bonus attacks over 42 rounds.

.45*(20*24.33)=218.97
.15*(20*32.66)=97.98

3232.89 damage over 42 rounds puts us at 76.974 DPR

Would you believe tried to turn an evoker into a champion fighter but fell quite short of the mark? The champion also has room for the healer feat, has second wind, and has survivor. ;)

[Lokiare]

The real problem is that Flaming sphere is a concentration spell. And that your caster will fail the check to keep the spell up eventually. It also has to reach its target.

The chance of concentration failure is listed. In the unlikely event that it happens they have several extra slots to keep it going. The majority of creatures have a move speed of 30 ft or less so reaching a creature won't be a problem.


He's got mirror image for non-concentration damage mitigation, shield spell mastered, and mage armor up, plus warcaster and resilient (CON). That's pretty decent for defense an concentration, but he's also using poison spray to take advantage of potent cantrip and the d12's damage, which means he's fighting in close range and I would agree he'll very likely to lose concentration.

He'll also drop due to damage and stop inflicting it fairly quickly without healing.

There are ways to get temp hp or healing within the class. The fact of the matter is the wizard can run up use poison spray and then run back so they still won't get damaged. If I traded out one of the concentration feats for an int bonus they would do almost 2 more DPR.


Champion fighter of equal level vs an assumed AC 16, great weapon fighting style, great weapon master feat, +1 greatsword, 1 short rest so 4 action surges allowed (184 attacks):

15% 8.33+8.33+5+10+1 with additional chances to bonus attack on crits
45% 8.33+5+10+1
40% miss chance

.45*(184*24.33)=2014.524
.15*(184*32.66)=901.416

Bonus attacks from crits: 47.799375% (higher on action surge rounds, omitted because I don't care to work it out as small impact overall) chance per round = 20.0757375 bonus attacks over 42 rounds.

.45*(20*24.33)=218.97
.15*(20*32.66)=97.98

3232.89 damage over 42 rounds puts us at 76.974 DPR

Would you believe tried to turn an evoker into a champion fighter but fell quite short of the mark? The champion also has room for the healer feat, has second wind, and has survivor. ;)

I'll double check your math when I get to a computer.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Although eldritch blast and hex are good things to pick up from warlock, it will not work like you think because empowered evocation specifically says it applies to wizard evocation spells and the whole reason your taking warlock levels is because those spells are not wizard spells. Your dm may allow it but I don't think it would be RAW.

You're right. I overlooked the "wizard evocation" stipulation. My bad!

[MaxWilson]

The chance of concentration failure is listed. In the unlikely event that it happens they have several extra slots to keep it going. The majority of creatures have a move speed of 30 ft or less so reaching a creature won't be a problem.

Creatures can Dash for double movement. I don't think a Flaming Sphere can Dash.

[Z3ro]

You've spent all your spell slots, devoted your entire build to DPR, and you do slightly more damage than a warlock with EB and hex. This probably isn't the strongest argument you could have made.

[Lokiare]

Champion fighter of equal level vs an assumed AC 16, great weapon fighting style, great weapon master feat, +1 greatsword, 1 short rest so 4 action surges allowed (184 attacks):

15% 8.33+8.33+5+10+1 with additional chances to bonus attack on crits
45% 8.33+5+10+1
40% miss chance

.45*(184*24.33)=2014.524
.15*(184*32.66)=901.416

Bonus attacks from crits: 47.799375% (higher on action surge rounds, omitted because I don't care to work it out as small impact overall) chance per round = 20.0757375 bonus attacks over 42 rounds.

.45*(20*24.33)=218.97
.15*(20*32.66)=97.98

3232.89 damage over 42 rounds puts us at 76.974 DPR

Would you believe tried to turn an evoker into a champion fighter but fell quite short of the mark? The champion also has room for the healer feat, has second wind, and has survivor. ;)

Champion Fighter

Assumptions
Attacks are vs. AC 16
+1 Great Sword is not assumed or we have to give the Wizard magical implements.
1 Short Rest, just like we gave the Wizard.

Features
Great Weapon Fighting Style: Reroll 1's and 2's and take the second result no matter what = 1d12 weapon dealing on average 7.33 damage (http://anydice.com/program/47a0).
Great Weapon Master Feat: 1 extra attack on a critical hit, -5 to attack for +10 damage (possibly a bad trade off).

Ability Scores
Strength: 20 [+5]

Normal Attack
65% hit chance of 12.33 (http://anydice.com/program/48d1) = 12.33 * 65% = 8.0145
15% critical hit chance of 19.67 (http://anydice.com/program/48cf) = 19.67 * 15% = 2.9505
Total = 10.965

They make 4 * 42 attacks for 168 attacks per day
They make 8 extra attacks on top of this for 176 attacks per day from action surge
They will make 26 extra attacks from the extra attack on a critical from Great Weapon Master feat over the course of the day for a total of 202 attacks per day
202 attacks * 10.965 DPR = 2,214.93 total damage in a day.
2,214.93 / 42 = 52.73642857142857 DPR

With the -5 to attack and +10 damage they get:

-5 Attack +10 Damage
40% hit chance of 22.33 = 22.33 * 40% = 8.932
15% crit chance of 29.67 = 29.67 * 15% = 4.4505
Total = 13.3825

With 202 attacks that's 13.3825 * 202 = 2,792.65 total damage in a day
2,792.65 / 42 = 66.49166666666667

So well within the range I'm talking about.

[Arzanyos]

Why a Greataxe and not a Greatsword?

[Lokiare]

Creatures can Dash for double movement. I don't think a Flaming Sphere can Dash.

So they don't get to attack? Well I'd call that trivializing an encounter then. So either the Wizard does decent DPR compared to other classes or when they are on a featureless plain they force monsters to flee from them and not get any attacks off trivializing the encounter. I'd say that's the same thing. Of course we all know that endless featureless plains don't exist in any adventure and its unlikely that monsters are going to use all their actions every round to evade a flaming sphere.


You've spent all your spell slots, devoted your entire build to DPR, and you do slightly more damage than a warlock with EB and hex. This probably isn't the strongest argument you could have made.

Actually no. I've spent all of my level 6+ spell slots, and kept about half of my level 5 spell slots as well as not touching any of my lower level slots (except for a few level 4's) for utility where most of the utility spells are found.

My entire 'build' is based on what spells I prepare on any given day. If I want to completely change up my build for stealth I can make invisibility my at-will 2nd level spell, and prepare things like spider climb. If I want social stuff I can prepare charm person (at-will), suggestion, and dominate.

I haven't looked over the spell list in detail, but I may be able to up the damage for single targets if I can find the right spells.

[Lokiare]

Why a Greataxe and not a Greatsword?

Great Sword 1d12 = 7.33 (http://anydice.com/program/47a0) average
Great Axe 2d6 = 8.33 (http://anydice.com/program/48d5) average

So it might be a slight boost. I was going with the assumptions of the other poster with the Great Sword.

Feel free to redo the math and post it how I did to show the difference.

[EugeneVoid]

#Eslin
get them 2d12+ weapons (RA sketchy)

[Lokiare]

I might run the numbers with giving up a feat for the +2 to intelligence and see if it ups the damage even more. I'm looking for spells that are not concentration that deal more damage than 9d6 which would push the DPR up even further.

[Darkmatter]

Total DPR = 43.7455119047619 [...]

I've demonstrated here that the wizard is within about 13 points (or 78%) of the highest DPR in the game (that I've seen so far) for single classed characters.


I salute the effort you've taken to show your work, but I can't agree with your conclusion here.

Check out my thread comparing single classed ranged damage dealers here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?375185-Class-Comparisons-for-Ranged-Damage) to give you numbers to shoot for. These numbers use an average AC of 16 (actually results vs. 12 to 20 averaged, which is slightly different, but pretty close). I've done a quick analysis on the monsters in the basic handbook and found that it is almost universally favorable to attack AC rather than a save (other than Int or Cha). The main exceptions are humanoids with shields, but it's not a large delta and the +2 to hit from archery and the ability to get a magic weapon more than cancels that out in a humanoid heavy campaign.

At level 20, 43.7 DPR comes in at 25% lower than the warlock. The warlock is substantially the worst single class damage dealer in contention at level 20 if feats are accessible. The best, the Fighter, comes in at 88.3 DPR, more than twice the wizard (who is expending a huge amount of daily resources). Even if the fighter uses no per-day resources (my fighter build used Haste from EK), the fighter is doing 70.7 DPR, a good 60% higher.

I would argue that there's nothing wrong with this, given the much better out of combat flexibility the Wizard has. The Wizard is also much better at dealing with multiple opponents (meteor swarm being an excellent example).

[Lokiare]

Fire Shield looks like a nice damage increase. Tomorrow I might go back and put that in as its a non-concentration spell that adds 2d8 damage each time you get hit assuming the wizard takes 1 hit every 4th round (due to their massive defensive boosts) it would add 2d8 damage to the DPR for a single 4th level slot each combat. Of course that gives up the 4th level fireballs. May have to move the fireballs up a level.

[Lokiare]

I salute the effort you've taken to show your work, but I can't agree with your conclusion here.

Check out my thread comparing single classed ranged damage dealers here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?375185-Class-Comparisons-for-Ranged-Damage) to give you numbers to shoot for. These numbers use an average AC of 16 (actually results vs. 12 to 20 averaged, which is slightly different, but pretty close). I've done a quick analysis on the monsters in the basic handbook and found that it is almost universally favorable to attack AC rather than a save (other than Int or Cha). The main exceptions are humanoids with shields, but it's not a large delta and the +2 to hit from archery and the ability to get a magic weapon more than cancels that out in a humanoid heavy campaign.

At level 20, 43.7 DPR comes in at 25% lower than the warlock. The warlock is substantially the worst single class damage dealer in contention at level 20 if feats are accessible. The best, the Fighter, comes in at 88.3 DPR, more than twice the wizard (who is expending a huge amount of daily resources). Even if the fighter uses no per-day resources (my fighter build used Haste from EK), the fighter is doing 70.7 DPR, a good 60% higher.

I would argue that there's nothing wrong with this, given the much better out of combat flexibility the Wizard has. The Wizard is also much better at dealing with multiple opponents (meteor swarm being an excellent example).

Unfortunately magic items aren't assumed and if you give the non-caster a magic weapon you have to give the caster a magic implement also which will boost both their DPRs.

Eldritch Knight is a different build than the Champion and is also a spell caster. Most spell casters fall in the tier 1 range. I'll look at your numbers tomorrow. I'm getting substantially less from the Champion Fighter than 70.7 DPR.

Another test would be to take average encounters and run the numbers to see how fast each class can defeat the encounter. We would probably find that single target DPR means very little if the Wizard can take out more enemies faster than other classes 90% of the time.

[Xetheral]

Champion Fighter

With 202 attacks that's 13.3825 * 202 = 2,792.65 total damage in a day
2,792.65 / 42 = 66.49166666666667

So well within the range I'm talking about.

How is 66 within range of 43?


Actually no. I've spent all of my level 6+ spell slots, and kept about half of my level 5 spell slots as well as not touching any of my lower level slots (except for a few level 4's) for utility where most of the utility spells are found.

Actually, you've got 18 rounds of fifth level Flaming Sphere and 6 rounds of overchanneled fifth level Flaming Sphere, and a notation suggesting you're devoting another fifth level slot to the rare loss of concentration, which is all 5 of your fifth level slots. You've also spent all 3 of your fourth level slots on Fireball. So you've got the remaining spellcasting ability of a 6th level Wizard.


My entire 'build' is based on what spells I prepare on any given day. If I want to completely change up my build for stealth I can make invisibility my at-will 2nd level spell, and prepare things like spider climb. If I want social stuff I can prepare charm person (at-will), suggestion, and dominate.


"Build" usually means choices made at character creation, rather than each-day memorizations. You've devoted your class feature/feat/and ability score selections to maintaining high DPR. You've also devoted every in-combat action to DPR. So yes, from my standpoint your entire build is focused on DPR.

Even if you managed to get the DPR up to the levels of other classes (you haven't yet, but it might be possible), you still run into the problem that if it takes almost all your resources to match the other classes, then you haven't demonstrated the balance concerns inherent in your conclusion that the wizard "does the same thing as other classes, often better".

[Sartharina]

Frankly, I'm glad that your research shows that someone who builds to be a blast-heavy battlemage is competent at his job in both taking and dishing out damage, yet doesn't overshadow martial combat characters.

[Lokiare]

How is 66 within range of 43?



Actually, you've got 18 rounds of fifth level Flaming Sphere and 6 rounds of overchanneled fifth level Flaming Sphere, and a notation suggesting you're devoting another fifth level slot to the rare loss of concentration, which is all 5 of your fifth level slots. You've also spent all 3 of your fourth level slots on Fireball. So you've got the remaining spellcasting ability of a 6th level Wizard.



"Build" usually means choices made at character creation, rather than each-day memorizations. You've devoted your class feature/feat/and ability score selections to maintaining high DPR. You've also devoted every in-combat action to DPR. So yes, from my standpoint your entire build is focused on DPR.

Even if you managed to get the DPR up to the levels of other classes (you haven't yet, but it might be possible), you still run into the problem that if it takes almost all your resources to match the other classes, then you haven't demonstrated the balance concerns inherent in your conclusion that the wizard "does the same thing as other classes, often better".

You seem to be confusing 'does the same thing as other classes, often better all the time' with 'does the same thing as other classes, often better'. There is a very large difference.

According to your definition then yes, the 'build' of the wizard is for DPR, but they can still do just about anything else in the game by using different spells, so they qualify for tier 1 status on that merit.

Keep in mind that they may not need to use all those slots because a single fireball might take out an entire encounter on its own. Where non-caster classes can't take out entire encounters with a single rounds worth of actions.

At some point tomorrow or the next day I'm going to throw together some 'typical' encounters using the info we have and then run the numbers with the wizard and the champion fighter to see who clears them out the fastest. I'll probably use the assumption that the wizard catches at least 5 creatures with its large AoE spells (like fireball) 3 with its smaller AoE's and 1 with its single target cantrips. The assumptions of the fighter will be that it can reach 4 creatures each round with its attacks.

[Xetheral]

According to your definition then yes, the 'build' of the wizard is for DPR, but they can still do just about anything else in the game by using different spells, so they qualify for tier 1 status on that merit.

I don't see any reason to assume the bolded part is true. If it takes the entire build to get up to the DPR you've managed so far(which doesn't appear enough to be able to compete with other classes' DPR builds), then why assume that with spells alone and no class features this DPR wizard can do "just about anything else in the game"?


Keep in mind that they may not need to use all those slots because a single fireball might take out an entire encounter on its own. Where non-caster classes can't take out entire encounters with a single rounds worth of actions.

True, but this doesn't seem particularly relevant to your DPR calculations. I don't think anyone is challenging the idea that under optimal circumstances the DPR of AoE-capabale classes shoots up immensely.


At some point tomorrow or the next day I'm going to throw together some 'typical' encounters using the info we have and then run the numbers with the wizard and the champion fighter to see who clears them out the fastest. I'll probably use the assumption that the wizard catches at least 5 creatures with its large AoE spells (like fireball) 3 with its smaller AoE's and 1 with its single target cantrips. The assumptions of the fighter will be that it can reach 4 creatures each round with its attacks.

I realize everyone has a different threshold beyond which theorycrafting seems an exercise in futility, but personally this new idea crosses mine. The previous assumptions (number and length of combats, etc.) weren't terribly controversial because even if your (or the book's) suggestion of "typical" is incorrect, D&D is ultimately a game of repeated encounters, so comparing damage-over-time makes some coherent sense.

By contrast, making numerical guesses about the parameters of "typical" encounters to calculate clear times involves so much guesswork that I don't feel the resulting numbers won't even be comparable amongst themselves: the margin of error in the guesswork is so large that it will overwhelm the results.

[Ashrym]

Champion Fighter

Assumptions
Attacks are vs. AC 16
+1 Great Sword is not assumed or we have to give the Wizard magical implements.

Magical weapons are in the game, unlike magical implements at this point.


1 Short Rest, just like we gave the Wizard.

Features
Great Weapon Fighting Style: Reroll 1's and 2's and take the second result no matter what = 1d12 weapon dealing on average 7.33 damage (http://anydice.com/program/47a0).
Great Weapon Master Feat: 1 extra attack on a critical hit, -5 to attack for +10 damage (possibly a bad trade off).

Greatswords roll 2d6 and great weapon fighter rerolls 1's or 2's. The mean output is 8.33 because both dice get a reroll.


Ability Scores
Strength: 20 [+5]

Normal Attack
65% hit chance of 12.33 (http://anydice.com/program/48d1) = 12.33 * 65% = 8.0145
15% critical hit chance of 19.67 (http://anydice.com/program/48cf) = 19.67 * 15% = 2.9505
Total = 10.965

They make 4 * 42 attacks for 168 attacks per day
They make 8 extra attacks on top of this for 176 attacks per day from action surge
They will make 26 extra attacks from the extra attack on a critical from Great Weapon Master feat over the course of the day for a total of 202 attacks per day
202 attacks * 10.965 DPR = 2,214.93 total damage in a day.
2,214.93 / 42 = 52.73642857142857 DPR

They get 2 action surges per short rest for 4 actions surges per day with one short rest for 4 attacks on each actions surge.

42*4+4*4=184 attacks

Take away the +1 weapon vs AC16 is a bonus of 11 to hit without the -5 penalty for greatweapon master. 15% of the attacks crit, 20% of the attacks miss, 65% do regular damage. We'll use your 26 bonus attacks.

.15*184*(8.33+8.33+5)+.65*184*(8.33+5)=2212.416
.15*26*(8.33+8.33+5)+.65*26*(8.33+5)=309.751

2522.167/42=60.0516 DPR. You are mistaken so far.


With the -5 to attack and +10 damage they get:

-5 Attack +10 Damage
40% hit chance of 22.33 = 22.33 * 40% = 8.932
15% crit chance of 29.67 = 29.67 * 15% = 4.4505
Total = 13.3825

With 202 attacks that's 13.3825 * 202 = 2,792.65 total damage in a day
2,792.65 / 42 = 66.49166666666667

So well within the range I'm talking about.

With +10 to damage and -5 they get...

.15*184*(8.33+8.33+5+10)+.40*184*(8.33+5+10)=2590. 904
.15*26*(8.33+8.33+5+10)+.40*26*(8.33+5+10)=366.106

2957.046/42=70.406 DPR.

What you've demonstrated is that you don't know what damage a greatsword does and how many attacks were added via action surge, shorting the base damage and number of attacks. Denial over magic weapons (which are listed in the DM guidelines) doesn't help because if we take them away we're still doing much more than an evoker, and much, much more than other wizards who don't have overchannel, empowered evocation, and potent cantrip on which to boost the damage. Adding that magic weapon back in and caster support via buffs drives that fighter damage up drastically because of all the attacks available.

[Darkmatter]

Unfortunately magic items aren't assumed and if you give the non-caster a magic weapon you have to give the caster a magic implement also which will boost both their DPRs.

Eldritch Knight is a different build than the Champion and is also a spell caster. Most spell casters fall in the tier 1 range. I'll look at your numbers tomorrow. I'm getting substantially less from the Champion Fighter than 70.7 DPR.

Another test would be to take average encounters and run the numbers to see how fast each class can defeat the encounter. We would probably find that single target DPR means very little if the Wizard can take out more enemies faster than other classes 90% of the time.

My numbers assume no magic items - everything going into the calculations is detailed in my post. As the game stands now magic weapons exist, and will be found in the majority of games. "Magic implements" have not been published; a separate thread is probably appropriate if you want to describe and discuss the effects of house rules.

Average encounters are a fairly dicey way to approach a calculation based discussion. Given a limited number of encounters it is very easy to tailor encounters to get the results one wishes to get. If you want a Wizard to look more effective, you can lean toward combats with many mid level, well armored melee fighters. If you want the Fighter to look better, you throw in more Legendary creatures with autosave abilites.

You're right that single target damage is not the only thing that's relevant in combat. Single target damage is the Fighter's niche, and the numbers you posted with just the champion fighter (off by like 6% from my casually optimized ranged Fighter) show that the Fighter much better it than a Wizard. A major Wizard combat niche is multi-target damage, and the Wizard will be much better at it than the Fighter. In as much as classes are meant to enable niche protection, this is what we expect from a well-designed rules system.

[EugeneVoid]

I suppose this is well above average but;
Current DPR King (wizards site) for level 20 is an Oath of Vengance Pally for ~76 DPR or
Barbarian + Frenzy for ~93 DPR

[Finieous]

This thread demonstrates convincingly that the DPR-optimized wizard achieves only moderate DPR but excels on trash mobs and control. That's great, because it makes the DPR-king martials even more fun to play. Good design.

Well done, Lok.

[Ashrym]

My numbers assume no magic items - everything going into the calculations is detailed in my post. As the game stands now magic weapons exist, and will be found in the majority of games. "Magic implements" have not been published; a separate thread is probably appropriate if you want to describe and discuss the effects of house rules.

Average encounters are a fairly dicey way to approach a calculation based discussion. Given a limited number of encounters it is very easy to tailor encounters to get the results one wishes to get. If you want a Wizard to look more effective, you can lean toward combats with many mid level, well armored melee fighters. If you want the Fighter to look better, you throw in more Legendary creatures with autosave abilites.

You're right that single target damage is not the only thing that's relevant in combat. Single target damage is the Fighter's niche, and the numbers you posted with just the champion fighter (off by like 6% from my casually optimized ranged Fighter) show that the Fighter much better it than a Wizard. A major Wizard combat niche is multi-target damage, and the Wizard will be much better at it than the Fighter. In as much as classes are meant to enable niche protection, this is what we expect from a well-designed rules system.

You'd almost think different classes were good at different things in a class-based system, and meant to work together or something. ;-)

[Geoff]

This build is for those that mistakenly think that the DPR of the Wizard is in the low range, the Wizard can be built in such a way that they can be right up there with the top damage dealers in the game. In 3.5 optimization, IIRC, the consensus was that such 'blaster' builds were a waste of time, anyway. Has 5e done a lot to change that?



Here are my assumptions each encounter of the day will last 4-7 rounds averaging 6. There will be 7 encounters per day (the average of 6-8 mentioned in the DMG PDF). That seems like a huge number of strangely long combats, to me. Admittedly, I've only played 5e at low level, but the combats are fast and the party can't handle too many of them without resting. Even assuming that changes, later, if the players have 'learned' that "5e is deadly" and "rest every chance you get," at low level, they might keep doing so...



Total DPR = 43.7455119047619

As you can see the number of combats don't really matter that much or even the rounds because of the way the concentration spells work. The wizard can keep the flaming spheres around for 10 rounds and they have enough 5th level slots that they can cast it 8 times at 5th level or higher. Assuming you never fail concentration seems overly optimistic, can't your hypothetical wizard(evoker) roll a hypothetical 1?


So in my mind it qualifies for 'doing the same thing as other classes, often better.' In this case its not better but its definitely dealing damage at an acceptable level. I don't see how all-day DPR has much to do with "often better." 13 out of 42 rounds wouldn't exactly be 'rarely,' for instance.

[Lokiare]

In 3.5 optimization, IIRC, the consensus was that such 'blaster' builds were a waste of time, anyway. Has 5e done a lot to change that?

In 3E blaster builds could still out damage everything in the game, even if a non-blaster build was more effective.


That seems like a huge number of strangely long combats, to me. Admittedly, I've only played 5e at low level, but the combats are fast and the party can't handle too many of them without resting. Even assuming that changes, later, if the players have 'learned' that "5e is deadly" and "rest every chance you get," at low level, they might keep doing so...

Its the averages that were reported during the play test. We have no other info to go on, except to note that shorter combats would favor the caster.


Assuming you never fail concentration seems overly optimistic, can't your hypothetical wizard(evoker) roll a hypothetical 1?

rolling a 1 has no effect. 20 damage and under is 100% success on concentration checks no roll required. 30 damage is above 95% success. Remember you roll for each attack. So a creature would have to deal over 20 damage to actually threaten a roll, and even if it managed that the wizard would likely succeed almost all the time until you got to damage levels that would threaten the life of the wizard outright.


I don't see how all-day DPR has much to do with "often better." 13 out of 42 rounds wouldn't exactly be 'rarely,' for instance.

because they don't have to be better on everything, just the same.

At some point I'm going to recalculate with over channeling cantrips since RAW you can do that. (and no I'm not using Mearl's house rule for taking damage on a level 0 spell. They should have put it in the book).

Race
Rock Gnome

HP: 142
AC: 15 (Mage Armor)
AC with Shield spell: 19 (Mage Armor)
Virtual AC with Mirror Image and Shield: 34/32/28 (assuming each hit auto succeeds against the image and each point of AC equals 5% miss chance)

Feats
Elemental Adept (fire)
War Caster
Resilient (Constitution)
Ability Score Increase (Intelligence +2)

Ability Scores
"()" = points used to buy, *=racial bonus, #=Ability Score Increase, [] = Ability Score Modifier, &=Feat
Strength: 10 (2) [+0]
Constitution: 16 (7)*1& [+3]
Dexterity: 14 (6) [+2]
Intelligence: 18 (7)#*2 [+4]
Wisdom: 10 (2) [+0]
Charisma: 10 (2) [+0]

Concentration Save Chance while taking 20 or less damage: 100%
Concentration Save Chance while taking 30 damage: 93.75%
Concentration Save Chance while taking 40 damage: 75%

Spell Save DC: 18
Spell Attack Bonus: +10

Effects added to spells from School and feats
1's are counted as 2's for fire spells. (d6 is averaged to 3.67)
Successful saves from cantrips cause half damage.
Add intelligence modifier to the damage of evocation spells.
Once per day maximize the damage of a 5th level or lower spell.


Spells per Day
*=Arcane Recovery
1st(4);2nd(3);3rd(3);4th(3);5th(5)*(x2);6th(2);7th (2);8th(1);9th(1)

Signature Spells (two 3rd level spells):
Mastered Spells (one 1st and 2nd level spell): Shield, Mirror Image

Assuming an average save bonus of +3 for all abilities (in reality its closer to +2, but I'm erring on the side of making it harder for the wizard)

Cantrips
Fire Bolt (over channeled) using the free +3 magic implement they get from True Polymorph
Hit 85% of 4d10+4 (int) = 44 * 85% = 37.4
Crit 5% of 8d10+4 (int) = 84 * 5% = 4.2
Total = 41.6

Spells:
Flaming Sphere (8th level spell slot)
Save 15% half of 8d6 = 14.68 * 15% = 2.202
Fail 85% of 8d6 = 29.36 * 85% = 24.956
Total = 27.158 DPR

Flaming Sphere (7th level spell slot)
Save 15% half of 7d6 = 12.845 * 15% = 1.92675
Fail 85% of 7d6 = 25.69 * 85% = 21.8365
Total = 23.76325 DPR

Flaming Sphere (6th level spell slot)
Save 15% half of 6d6 = 11.01 * 15% = 1.6515
Fail 85% of 6d6 = 22.02 * 85% = 18.717
Total = 20.3685 DPR

Flaming Sphere (5th level spell slot) x4 (in case of the rare failed concentration check)
Save 15% half of 5d6 =9.175 * 15% = 1.37625
Fail 85% of 5d6 = 18.35 * 85% = 15.5975
Total = 16.97375 DPR

Meteor Swarm
Save 15% half of 20d6 bludgeoning (70) and 20d6 fire (73.4) +4(int) = 73.7 * 15% = 11.055
Fail 85% of 20d6 bludgeoning (70) and 20d6 fire (73.4) +4(int) = 147.4 * 85% = 125.29
Total = 136.345 DPR

(less DPR than the cantrip so we are dropping this)
Fireball (4th) x3
Save 15% half of 9d6 +4 (int) = 18.515 * 15% = 2.77725
Fail 85% of 9d6+4(int) = 37.03 * 85% = 31.4755
Total = 34.25275 DPR

Now in each day there is going to be an average of 42 rounds. Each combat lasts an average of 6 rounds so each of the Flaming Spheres last for 6 rounds and on each of those except the first the caster can use their cantrip poison spray, one round instead of poison spray the wizard uses Meteor Swarm. Three rounds instead of poison spray they use a 4th level fireball.

6 rounds of Flaming Sphere at 8th = 6 * 27.158 = 162.948
6 rounds of Flaming Sphere at 7th = 6 * 23.76325 = 142.5795
6 rounds of Flaming Sphere at 6th = 6 * 20.3685 = 122.211
24 rounds of Flaming Sphere at 5th = 24 * 16.97375 = 407.37
1 round of Meteor Swarm = 136.345
34 rounds of Fire Bolt (over channeled) = 34 * 41.6 = 1,414.4
Total Damage = 2,385.8535 damage over the course of an average day.
Total DPR = 56.80603571428571

Well that gets it within the top 5 I believe and that's with a +3 implement which they can easily have by casting true polymorph on a creature and concentration on it for the required time. Its probable with the free +3 implement they get that they might pull ahead of the max DPR character and become #1.

And for those of you that complain about the over channeling a cantrip or the free magic items. Sorry. That's RAW. If we have to start house ruling things then half the game would need to be house ruled.

[EugeneVoid]

Just for funsies how much would a full skeleton army deal in dpr, ignoring the fact that the skeleton army will be unlikely to focus fire and even more vulnerable to aoe.

[Geoff]

In 3E blaster builds could still out damage everything in the game, even if a non-blaster build was more effective. Not the question.

What has 5e done to make those non-blaster builds less overpowered? Has it succeeded? To the extent that blasting is the gold standard 'best' caster strategy?


Its the averages that were reported during the play test. We have no other info to go on, except to note that shorter combats would favor the caster. There are the encounter guidelines in the DM pdf. 6-8/medium-hard. They don't go into rounds/combat, though.

And, the playtest monsters were pretty whimpy....




rolling a 1 has no effect. 20 damage and under is 100% success on concentration checks no roll required. 30 damage is above 95% success. Remember you roll for each attack. Well... ok...


because they don't have to be better on everything, just the same. I was thinking of Tier 1 qualification. "...often better..."


At some point I'm going to recalculate with over channeling cantrips since RAW you can do that. (and no I'm not using Mearl's house rule for taking damage on a level 0 spell. They should have put it in the book). Sounds like you're just borrowing trouble, there.

[Sartharina]

It's not the best, but it's viable.

Also... the Wizard may be good DPR, and have strong survivability modifiers thanks to AC and Mirror Image, but he lacks the HP to truly take hits effectively. You can play a blasty pyromancer wizard and have fun with it without being trivialized by or trivializing the party fighter.

[MaxWilson]

So they don't get to attack? Well I'd call that trivializing an encounter then. So either the Wizard does decent DPR compared to other classes or when they are on a featureless plain they force monsters to flee from them and not get any attacks off trivializing the encounter. I'd say that's the same thing. Of course we all know that endless featureless plains don't exist in any adventure and its unlikely that monsters are going to use all their actions every round to evade a flaming sphere.

This is wrong. When you have double the movement of a Flaming Sphere, you only need to Dash once to get away from it/around it, not every single round.


Just for funsies how much would a full skeleton army deal in dpr, ignoring the fact that the skeleton army will be unlikely to focus fire and even more vulnerable to aoe.

It's a bit difficult to compute what a "full" skeleton army is, but here are three variants:

Eldritch Knight 11/Necromancer 7/Warlock 2:
3 3rd, 3 4th, 2 5th level slots means he maxes out at 46 skeletons simultaneously (I'm not counting Arcane Recovery because he's using that to get up to 46 in the first place), plus his own personal Eldritch Blast + 1 Sharpshooter attack:
Skellies: 46 x +4 for (1d6 + 8) = (25 - TargetAC) * 26.45 damage at 80', less at 320'.
EB w/ 20 CHA and Hex: 4 x +11 for (1d10 + 1d6 + 5) = (32 - TargetAC) * 2.8 damage at 120', maybe more
Sharpshooter with 20 DX: 1 x +8 for (1d8 + 15) = (29 - TargetAC) * 0.975 damage at 600'

When fighting Glabrezus, this equates to 159.5 points of damage per turn , or about 1 Glabrezu (Glabrezu HP: 157), about 2/3 of it from skellies (and yes I counted damage resistance).

Necromancer 20:
3 3rd-5th, 2 6th-7th, 1 8th-9th slots means he maxes out at 256 skeletons (again, not counting Arcane Recovery):
Skellies: (25 - TargetAC) * 147.2 damage at 80', less at 320'.

I'll neglect the Necromancer's cantrip here because I'll assume he's too busy cackling madly.

When fighting Glabrezus, this equates to to 588.8 points of damage per turn, or about 3.75 Glabrezus. (Note though that you are unlikely to have 3.75 Glabrezus all within 80' of your archers every turn.)

Necromancer 6/Warlock 14:

3 5th level spells per short rest, 23 short rests per day means he maxes out at 552 skeletons at a time (neglecting Necromancer slots entirely because they don't come back on a short rest).
Skellies: (25 - TargetAC) * 317.4 damage at 80', less at 320'.
EB w/ 20 CHA and Hex: 4 x +11 for (1d10 + 1d6 + 5) = (32 - TargetAC) * 2.8 damage at 120', maybe more

When fighting Glabrezus, this amounts to 1311.6 points of damage per turn, or about 8.4 Glabrezus. 95% of this damage comes from skeletons and not the Warlock.

[Lokiare]

Not the question.

What has 5e done to make those non-blaster builds less overpowered? Has it succeeded? To the extent that blasting is the gold standard 'best' caster strategy?

There are the encounter guidelines in the DM pdf. 6-8/medium-hard. They don't go into rounds/combat, though.

And, the playtest monsters were pretty whimpy....



Well... ok...

I was thinking of Tier 1 qualification. "...often better..."

Sounds like you're just borrowing trouble, there.

Well my next test is to put together average level 20 encounters and to see how many rounds on average they would survive. I'm betting its less than a total of 42 rounds per day.

Yes, the key word "often" means that sometimes they will just be as good or nearly as good. Which short of multiclassing into a caster class they are. I mean the wizard could get a few levels of fighter for the action surge and the ability to make multiple attacks with a summoned weapon or whatever, but that wouldn't prove the Wizard is tier 1 that would prove the game is broken, which we already know from various other threads.

[EugeneVoid]

Necromancer 6/Warlock 14:

3 5th level spells per short rest, 23 short rests per day means he maxes out at 552 skeletons at a time (neglecting Necromancer slots entirely because they don't come back on a short rest).


Now we just need to find a way to shrink those skeletons without reducing their damage, so as to improve portability

[MaxWilson]

Now we just need to find a way to shrink those skeletons without reducing their damage, so as to improve portability

Ehhhh, maybe. To me, round-the-clock skeleton maintenance sounds like a job, not like fun. If I were a Necromancer PC I'd probably just keep 18 or 30 skeletons around me, maybe even less, unless I were actually in the middle of a war campaign. Maintaining 18 skeletons is a 3rd + 4th + 5th level slot, which isn't onerous.

Plus, remember that you have to buy bows and ammunition for them. 500 skeletons is 50 gp you're spending per round on ammunition, or 25 if you recover half of them afterwards.

[EugeneVoid]

Or slightly reduced skeletons for fabricate arrows or something
Though yeah, max skele army is prolly not practical

[numerek]

Eldritch Knight 11/Necromancer 7/Warlock 2:

Necromancer 6/Warlock 14:

3 5th level spells per short rest, 23 short rests per day means he maxes out at 552 skeletons at a time (neglecting Necromancer slots entirely because they don't come back on a short rest).
Skellies: (25 - TargetAC) * 317.4 damage at 80', less at 320'.
EB w/ 20 CHA and Hex: 4 x +11 for (1d10 + 1d6 + 5) = (32 - TargetAC) * 2.8 damage at 120', maybe more

When fighting Glabrezus, this amounts to 1311.6 points of damage per turn, or about 8.4 Glabrezus. 95% of this damage comes from skeletons and not the Warlock.

Your choice of level breaks seem weird to me, I don't see what fighter 8-11 are bringing to your build besides 1 ASI which you get at level 8, also warlock 12 thru 14 is the same way.

but anyways one thing to note about the third build is you will lose control of undead every time you fight with them or travel with them or do anything besides rest and cast in an infinite loop, and only elves don't need to sleep.

[MaxWilson]

Your choice of level breaks seem weird to me, I don't see what fighter 8-11 are bringing to your build besides 1 ASI which you get at level 8, also warlock 12 thru 14 is the same way.

but anyways one thing to note about the third build is you will lose control of undead every time you fight with them or travel with them or do anything besides rest and cast in an infinite loop, and only elves don't need to sleep.

Right, that's why I dislike the third build. It's really only useful if you're winding up for a huge battle, and you're planning to send all your skellies off to die at the same time.

The Eldritch Knight 11 build is intended as mostly as fighter build who still does most fighter stuff (take point, kill things with arrows from 600' away) but values a dozen or four skeletons more than a 4th attack per round. It's a pretty decent tradeoff IMO. Warlock is for force damage, pushing things around at close range (under 120') while still getting a free weapon attack, and general entertainment value. Of all the necromancer builds, this is the one I'd be most likely to play and enjoy from levels 1 to 20--although it is a little bit MAD (DX/CHA). I posted it to show that you can still have a fun character with lots of options and 4th level spells while still abusing Necromancy.

I'd probably go Eldritch Knight 1 to 7, then Warlock 1 to 2, then either Eldritch Knight to 11 immediately or Necromancer 6 first, depending on how much I wanted my backup army vs. how much I was enjoying solo heroics, and how much I wanted Indomitable/Eldritch Strike.

[numerek]

with finger of death you would be limited to about 1752000 zombies if you cast the spell 4 times a day for 1200 years, and killed a humanoid every time you cast it.

[MaxWilson]

with finger of death you would be limited to about 1752000 zombies if you cast the spell 4 times a day for 1200 years, and killed a humanoid every time you cast it.

It's not clear to me that zombies are smart enough to still use missile weapons. They have only half the intelligence of skeletons after all. Plus, this plan is logistically very tough to pull off. YMMV, but it doesn't interest me.

[Kyutaru]

I'm tired of these theoretical math jibblies. Someone get me some real results!

Scenario: Horde of Zombies are attacking the city!

Rules: Your hero is constantly surrounded by zombies. You may attack as many times as you have attack actions, or spell casts (i.e. no AOE abilities). Each zombie has as many hitpoints as you just did damage. What are the odds??! Effectively, every zombie you kill is inflicted with your score upon death. The zombies are incredibly stupid and can't figure out how to get past your defenses. You basically kill them before they even get in range of threatening you.

Contest: What class deals the most damage to the zombies? Who takes the trophy as Walker Stalker?

[MaxWilson]

I'm tired of these theoretical math jibblies. Someone get me some real results!

Scenario: Horde of Zombies are attacking the city!

Rules: Your hero is constantly surrounded by zombies. You may attack as many times as you have attack actions, or spell casts (i.e. no AOE abilities). Each zombie has as many hitpoints as you just did damage. What are the odds??! Effectively, every zombie you kill is inflicted with your score upon death. The zombies are incredibly stupid and can't figure out how to get past your defenses. You basically kill them before they even get in range of threatening you.

Contest: What class deals the most damage to the zombies? Who takes the trophy as Walker Stalker?

What is ∂z/∂t, the rate of zombie influx? It matters.

[Kyutaru]

What is ∂z/∂t, the rate of zombie influx? It matters.

It's delta K over delta T, the rate at which you kill them.

[MaxWilson]

It's delta K over delta T, the rate at which you kill them.

Are you saying it doesn't matter? But don't you have to figure out how long you can survive? That duration will depend on whether ∂z/∂t is greater than ∂K/∂t. If you don't know the influx rate you can't solve for total damage before death (which could be infinite).

I think I may be taking you more seriously than you meant me to...

[Kyutaru]

Are you saying it doesn't matter? But don't you have to figure out how long you can survive? That duration will depend on whether ∂z/∂t is greater than ∂K/∂t. If you don't know the influx rate you can't solve for total damage before death (which could be infinite).

I think I may be taking you more seriously than you meant me to...

Ah I see, you're looking for the expiration time. I left that open to interpretation, but I'll give you a 10 round time limit (slightly longer than a typical boss encounter).

[MaxWilson]

Ah I see, you're looking for the expiration time. I left that open to interpretation, but I'll give you a 10 round time limit (slightly longer than a typical boss encounter).

I feel like this discussion board is way too interested in raw offensive output to the neglect of loss ratios, and I don't want to contribute to that particular fallacy. I'll let someone else answer your challenge.

[Lokiare]

I feel like this discussion board is way too interested in raw offensive output to the neglect of loss ratios, and I don't want to contribute to that particular fallacy. I'll let someone else answer your challenge.

Actually I was going to do that next after I figured out whether having more damage is worth it based on how fast single class characters can end encounters.

It would be to figure out if the single class characters could survive long enough.

Edit: Because you can't post to the same topic multiple times in a row I have to edit this post.

Race
Rock Gnome

HP: 142
AC: 15 (Mage Armor)
AC with Shield spell: 19 (Mage Armor)
Virtual AC with Mirror Image and Shield: 34/32/28 (assuming each hit auto succeeds against the image and each point of AC equals 5% miss chance)

Feats
Elemental Adept (fire)
War Caster
Resilient (Constitution)
Ability Score Increase (Intelligence +2)

Ability Scores
"()" = points used to buy, *=racial bonus, #=Ability Score Increase, [] = Ability Score Modifier, &=Feat
Strength: 10 (2) [+0]
Constitution: 16 (7)*1& [+3]
Dexterity: 14 (6) [+2]
Intelligence: 18 (7)#*2 [+4]
Wisdom: 10 (2) [+0]
Charisma: 10 (2) [+0]

Concentration Save Chance while taking 20 or less damage: 100%
Concentration Save Chance while taking 30 damage: 93.75%
Concentration Save Chance while taking 40 damage: 75%

Spell Save DC: 18
Spell Attack Bonus: +10

Effects added to spells from School and feats
1's are counted as 2's for fire spells. (d6 is averaged to 3.67)
Successful saves from cantrips cause half damage.
Add intelligence modifier to the damage of evocation spells.
Once per day maximize the damage of a 5th level or lower spell.

Spells per Day
*=Arcane Recovery
1st(4);2nd(3);3rd(3);4th(3);5th(5)*(x2);6th(2);7th (2);8th(1);9th(1)

Signature Spells (two 3rd level spells):
Mastered Spells (one 1st and 2nd level spell): Shield, Mirror Image

Assuming an average save bonus of +3 for all abilities (in reality its closer to +2, but I'm erring on the side of making it harder for the wizard).

*New* Trading out Meteor Swarm for Foresight cast either at the beginning of the day or the first sign of trouble. Doesn't require concentration and it lasts for 8 hours which is plenty of time to clear a dungeon and take 2-3 short rests for 1 hour each.

Cantrips
Fire Bolt (over channeled) using the free +3 magic implement they get from True Polymorph and advantage from foresight
Hit 93.75% of 4d10+4 (int) = 44 * 93.75% = 41.25
Crit 5% of 8d10+4 (int) = 84 * 5% = 4.2
Total = 45.45

Spells:
Flaming Sphere (8th level spell slot) Overchanneled (first time per day is free)
Save 9% half of 8d6 = 24 * 9% = 2.16
Fail 91% of 8d6 = 48 * 91% = 43.68
Total = 45.84 DPR

Flaming Sphere (7th level spell slot)
Save 9% half of 7d6 = 12.845 *9% = 1.15605
Fail 91% of 7d6 = 25.69 * 91% = 24.53395
Total =25.69 DPR

Flaming Sphere (6th level spell slot)
Save 9% half of 6d6 = 11.01 * 9% = 0.9909
Fail 91% of 6d6 = 22.02 * 91% = 20.0382
Total = 21.0291 DPR

Flaming Sphere (5th level spell slot) x4 (in case of the rare failed concentration check)
Save 9% half of 5d6 =9.175 * 9% = 0.82575
Fail 91% of 5d6 = 18.35 * 91% = 16.6985
Total = 17.52425 DPR

Now in each day there is going to be an average of 42 rounds. Each combat lasts an average of 6 rounds so each of the Flaming Spheres last for 6 rounds and on each of those except the first the caster can use their cantrip poison spray, one round instead of poison spray the wizard uses Meteor Swarm. Three rounds instead of poison spray they use a 4th level fireball.

6 rounds of Flaming Sphere at 8th (first Over Channel) = 6 * 45.84 = 275.04
6 rounds of Flaming Sphere at 7th = 6 * 25.69 = 154.14
6 rounds of Flaming Sphere at 6th = 6 * 21.0291 = 126.1746
24 rounds of Flaming Sphere at 5th = 24 * 17.52425 = 420.582
34 rounds of Fire Bolt (over channeled) = 34 *45.45 = 1,545.3
Total Damage = 2,521.2366 damage over the course of an average day.
Total DPR = 60.02944285714286