Magical Barbarian

[torrasque666]

So I, for once, am completely blanking on how to help someone build a character. My girlfriend is joining one of my groups, at my invitation and I already cleared it with the DM, and when I asked her what she wanted to play she said that she wanted to play some sort of magical barbarian. When I asked her to clarify a bit she described something that isn't a spellcaster, kind of a savage warrior, and has a semi-magical feel. I directed her to the totemist, as it fit to the best of my knowledge and she likes the class. Likes the whole concept of soulmelds(plus, this will give my DM exposure to the subsystem. He hasn't played MoI yet.). She wants to play a catfolk, deadset on that. She doesn't want to rely on strength too much, though we're aware that it will be necessary to an extent.

So, how can we build this to help fit her concept of a savage warrior who uses magic but not casting?

Allowed sources are all Non-Setting and Eberron. No Forgotten Realms or anything else. Limiting Dragon simply due to the fact that we don't have easy access to them.

[Andry]

Champion of Gwynharwyf from Book of Exalted Deeds

[torrasque666]

Champion of Gwynharwyf from Book of Exalted Deeds

You didn't even read the OP did you? She doesn't want to cast and Barbarians kinda scream "Str-based"

[Extra Anchovies]

Totemist 2/Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian (possibly with Whirling Frenzy) 4/Totem Rager 10/Totemist +4
Feats:
1st: Improved Unarmed Strike
3rd: Cobalt Rage
6th: Superior Unarmed Strike
9th: Double Chakra (Totem)
12th: Bonus Essentia
15th: Multiattack
18th: Open Greater Chakra (whichever of the two you prefer)

Use your unarmed strikes for the iterative attacks, and then pile on the natural weapons afterwards.

[torrasque666]

Any way to make these more Dex based than Str based?

[Val666]

Maybe add a level or two of Hit & Run Fighter from drow of the underdark? like..take weapon finesse from the feat and add dex to damage against flat footed foes. Then continue with Barbarian/Totemist/Totem Rager. Maybe you can grab the Ferocity variant? which gives Str and Dex? uhm...Swordsage dips add a "magical" feeling and opens Shadow Blade for extra DEX synergy.

[Kazyan]

You could use the Ferocity variant in place of Rage. That's +4 to Str and Dex, instead of +4 to Str and Con.

EDIT: Fox Spirit Totem'd

[Extra Anchovies]

Any way to make these more Dex based than Str based?

Well, they don't need to be Str based. Rage increases strength, so you can get by with a (base, pre-magic enhancement) Strength of as low as 12, especially with the sheer number of attacks you'd be piling on with Whirling Cobalt Frenzy Totemist Pounce (she totally needs to yell that out when she enters a rage and charges). Whirling Frenzy gives an AC bonus instead of an AC penalty, and boosts reflex saves, both of which key off Dexterity, so it's an effective +4 to Dex for those purposes.

[Phelix-Mu]

Any way to make these more Dex based than Str based?

Dip swordsage (perhaps unarmed), build toward Shadow Blade feat. I believe that unarmed strikes are among those that can benefit from the Dex-mod to damage.

Maybe Weapon Finesse somewhere in there, since it seems you are likely missing some BAB, too.

EDIT: Repeatedly swordsage'd. How appropriate.

[heavyfuel]

Swordsage focused on Tiger Claw. It's not Barbarian by any means, but it is a savage warrior with a magical feel to it, especially when you add some Desert Wind.

[torrasque666]

Hmmmm..... now I have to figure out if Catfolk Pounce is worth it in exchange for a different spirit totem, or keep Lion change out Catfolk Pounce for something else...

I did mention Swordsage to her earlier tonight and the Shadow Blade feat, and that would also work given that Claws also benefit from Shadow Blade.

[Seerow]

I'm going to second the Ferocity Variant Barbarian with Totem Rager. It's not quite as powerful as Whirling Frenzy, but it does let you remain pretty much entirely dex based, and you can even take a quick dip into swordsage (or blow a feat for a stance, if you have the feat to spare) for dex to damage through Shadow Blade.

Cobalt Rage gives a flat boost to damage (good regardless of str or dex) and Will Saves (great especially since one of the big weaknesses of Ferocity/Frenzy is weak saves compared to standard rage boosting both Fort and Will), and Totem Rager just makes Cobalt Rage and your soulmelds (which you can tailor to taste) better. I really don't think it'll get much better for a non-spellcasting magical dex based barbarian.

[Flickerdart]

Runescarred Berserker is basically exactly the thing, though depending on level it might not kick in early enough. It's FR, but there's no setting-specific stuff involved other than a berserker lodge feat as a prerequisite.

[torrasque666]

Sadly, while it wouldn't be absurd to allow, Ferocity explicitly says that you do not gain the Rage class feature, which is a prereq for Cobalt Rage, which is a prereq for Totem Rager. So that might be out.

[Seerow]

Runescarred Berserker is basically exactly the thing, though depending on level it might not kick in early enough. It's FR, but there's no setting-specific stuff involved other than a berserker lodge feat as a prerequisite.

Runescarred Berserker isn't just a spellcaster, it's a spellcaster that has to basically craft scrolls every day to access its most important class feature.

[Val666]

Sadly, while it wouldn't be absurd to allow, Ferocity explicitly says that you do not gain the Rage class feature, which is a prereq for Cobalt Rage, which is a prereq for Totem Rager. So that might be out.

Come on bro Dx I don't think your DM will be that harsh...

[torrasque666]

Given that he has basically given me responsibilities over character creation(including interviewing new applicants) I doubt he would be. But I'd still prefer to try and find RAW valid ways to accomplish the goal before turning to handwaving.

[Flickerdart]

Runescarred Berserker isn't just a spellcaster, it's a spellcaster that has to basically craft scrolls every day to access its most important class feature.
It's barely a spellcaster at all - at any given time it has no more than 7 spells prepared, and it won't be shooting them off willy nilly like any other caster. Seems perfect for what the OP wants, really.

[torrasque666]

It's barely a spellcaster at all - at any given time it has no more than 7 spells prepared, and it won't be shooting them off willy nilly like any other caster. Seems perfect for what the OP wants, really.
Takes money, XP and deals damage on top of that. I know that the gold and XP costs are negligible, and damage is easily healed but still.

In any case, I don't think it fits her idea.

[Seerow]

I'm stumped. Every magical barbarian style class I can think of or find through googling is either strength based, has the same rage specification that Cobalt Rage does, or both.



What if we went from a different angle? Instead of Barbarian, Shapechanging. Primeval (Frostburn) isn't Barbarian specific, but lets you pick one dire animal or dinosaur with 8 hit dice or less and you transform into it, but augment your personal stats rather than replace them as is the norm for shapechanging. Find a form that qualifies with a big dex, maybe even some feline form (since she's playing a catfolk), and go to town with it. Even here though you're looking at getting much bigger boosts to strength than dex with any logical form.

[torrasque666]

I'm stumped. Every magical barbarian style class I can think of or find through googling is either strength based, has the same rage specification that Cobalt Rage does, or both.



What if we went from a different angle? Instead of Barbarian, Shapechanging. Primeval (Frostburn) isn't Barbarian specific, but lets you pick one dire animal or dinosaur with 8 hit dice or less and you transform into it, but augment your personal stats rather than replace them as is the norm for shapechanging. Find a form that qualifies with a big dex, maybe even some feline form (since she's playing a catfolk), and go to town with it. Even here though you're looking at getting much bigger boosts to strength than dex with any logical form.

I think she'll yield to having strength as a secondary score tied with Dex, Like I said, we're both aware that strength will be needed, at least partially. And a + to Strength and Con wouldn't be bad, especially if she takes any melds that have saving throws.

Though Primeval sounds interesting. I'll bring it to her attention in the morning.

[Val666]

A 1 level dip Barbarian with a couple of Fighter levels Two Weapon Fighting Warblade could be cool too! Barbarian por pounce and Ferocity, Fighter for Hit & Run, and Warblade because Warblade! using Tiger Claw maneuvers since those are the most barbaric ones. She will have to focus on dex for twf and the fighter dip adds dex to flat footed enemies. Using Dragonsplits maybe?

[torrasque666]

A) Aren't Dragonsplits dragmag? Because if they are, that's right out.

B) She's interested in the totemist class. I like(and I think she'll like as well) the builds for Totem Rager. Anything else that can help her accomplish the feel of a savage supernatural warrior? Doesn't have to include Barbarian at all.

[Sam K]

A) Aren't Dragonsplits dragmag? Because if they are, that's right out.

B) She's interested in the totemist class. I like(and I think she'll like as well) the builds for Totem Rager. Anything else that can help her accomplish the feel of a savage supernatural warrior? Doesn't have to include Barbarian at all.

+1 for refluffed swordsage - think spirit lodges and vision quests instead of academies and meditation. You can have a magical feel without actually being a caster (shadow hand, desert wind), you benefit from strength but doesn't have to have it. Light armor works well with dex based. Tigers claw is a barbaric style of fighting. Hell, warblade would work too; not as magical, but probably more barbaric.

[Extra Anchovies]

A) Aren't Dragonsplits dragmag? Because if they are, that's right out.

B) She's interested in the totemist class. I like(and I think she'll like as well) the builds for Totem Rager. Anything else that can help her accomplish the feel of a savage supernatural warrior? Doesn't have to include Barbarian at all.

Well, utilizing unarmed strikes rather than manufactured weapons to make her BAB-derived iterative attacks would certainly have a savage feel to it. Totemist is quite feat-starved, needing Multiattack, Double Chakra, and Improved Unarmed Strike (plus its superior cousin) to function optimally (multiattack makes hitting easier, double chakra gives moar natural attacks, IUAS means you don't have to wield a weapon, so no worries about missing out on natural attacks), and making a Totem Rager build also requires Cobalt Rage, so that's four or five feats right off the bat. I bring this up because a Totem Rager build won't have too much room for mechanical changes, unless you aren't playing with much in the way of optimization. However, a good chunk of the "savage warrior" archetype can be emulated through roleplaying alone.

[torrasque666]

Well, we use flaws and are currently level 10, so that does leave a feat free for changes.

[Val666]

Uhmm...what about fist of the forest :v?

[Extra Anchovies]

Well, we use flaws and are currently level 10, so that does leave a feat free for changes.

If you use flaws, then I suggest Multiattack be taken in exchange for the Bestial Instinct flaw. Bestial Instinct fits the fluff perfectly for a savage warrior, because it gives a to-hit penalty (-2 I think) for anything other than unarmed strikes or natural weapons (which doesn't seem like much of a flaw for a totemist, until they go up against something with DR/silver). Other possible fluff-fitting flaws include Individualist (penalties with weapons/armor you did not personally make), Love of Nature (requires a Will save each time you try to attack an animal, plant, or vermin), and possibly Metal Intolerance (take 1 extra damage whenever struck by metal). Sadly, those are all Dragon Magazine, so they might be out.

[Curbstomp]

Bear Warrior. You need BAB +7 and Power Attack. That's it. Even a single level dip would allow her to become a black bear with decent stat boosts for short periods per day. A full ten levels gets her character turning into a Dire bear. My suggestion is actually the one level dip to add a cool ability that has virtually no prerequisites.

[torrasque666]

If you use flaws, then I suggest Multiattack be taken in exchange for the Bestial Instinct flaw. Bestial Instinct fits the fluff perfectly for a savage warrior, because it gives a to-hit penalty (-2 I think) for anything other than unarmed strikes or natural weapons (which doesn't seem like much of a flaw for a totemist, until they go up against something with DR/silver). Other possible fluff-fitting flaws include Individualist (penalties with weapons/armor you did not personally make), Love of Nature (requires a Will save each time you try to attack an animal, plant, or vermin), and possibly Metal Intolerance (take 1 extra damage whenever struck by metal). Sadly, those are all Dragon Magazine, so they might be out.


Normally they would be, but I found an easy to access link, so they are in.

They're also(in my group's experience) some of the few well written things from dragmag.

[Seerow]

Well, utilizing unarmed strikes rather than manufactured weapons to make her BAB-derived iterative attacks would certainly have a savage feel to it. Totemist is quite feat-starved, needing Multiattack, Double Chakra, and Improved Unarmed Strike (plus its superior cousin) to function optimally (multiattack makes hitting easier, double chakra gives moar natural attacks, IUAS means you don't have to wield a weapon, so no worries about missing out on natural attacks), and making a Totem Rager build also requires Cobalt Rage, so that's four or five feats right off the bat. I bring this up because a Totem Rager build won't have too much room for mechanical changes, unless you aren't playing with much in the way of optimization. However, a good chunk of the "savage warrior" archetype can be emulated through roleplaying alone.

Honestly unless you're in an optimization environment where you need a standard full attack plus a full set of natural weapons on top of it, I'd skip the IAS/SUS feats, and just stick with the various natural attacks you gain from your soulmelds. Even with just that she'll probably still have more attacks than anyone else in the party.

If you really do need the unarmed strike, take the 1 level dip into Unarmed Swordsage, and grab a Monk's Belt + Fanged Ring. That nets you a 2d6 damage unarmed strike for 1 level and some gold (and before you have the gold for it you still have 1d6, which while isn't great, isn't bad considering you're getting that as a freebie in addition to all your natural attacks). That swordsage dip also lets you get some of the Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand maneuvers others have already been mentioning here, and puts you a feat away from Shadow Blade for dex to damage (which works with unarmed strikes, though I'm not sure if it would extend to other natural weapons which makes its usefulness less certain)

[Gwendol]

Seconding Fist of the Forest. With Weapon Finesse she will start to gain really high to hit numbers.

[torrasque666]

Even though Fist of the Forest locks you into a style of play that, should your party end up in a city for an extended period of time(possible with my group) you basically have to separate yourself from the group or lose your powers?

[Gwendol]

Couldn't you find a park?

EDIT: Sleeping outdoors and not purchasing food is not a very hard requirement. I certainly don't see that being a show-stopper.

[Greenish]

A) Aren't Dragonsplits dragmag? Because if they are, that's right out.Dragonsplits are from MMIV.


B) She's interested in the totemist class. I like(and I think she'll like as well) the builds for Totem Rager. Anything else that can help her accomplish the feel of a savage supernatural warrior? Doesn't have to include Barbarian at all.Why not straight totemist then? There's no Rage, but otherwise it's about as close to barbarian you can get (without being one), illiteracy and all.

[Curmudgeon]

You can add magical feel to a Barbarian if you use Duskling Barbarian substitution levels (Magic of Incarnum) and Spell Sense ACF (Complete Mage).

[ShurikVch]

How about the Warlock with Eldritch Claws?

[Mr Adventurer]

Definitely Tiger Claw Swordsage into Bloodclaw Master.

[KingAtomsk]

I second the Totem Rager suggestion. They can be very very fun

[Prime32]

My vote's for a straight totemist wearing an Amulet of Mighty Fists with either Fierce (lose Dex bonus to AC, add it to damage) or the special property of a Sword of Graceful Strikes (add Dex to damage in place of Str) - both are equivalent to a +2 enchantment.

[Oddman80]

Why not just point her to a race that comes with some nifty SLA's? That way its like the magic stuff is intrinsic to her?

Also a single level of cloistered cleric on the front end, in order to cash in domains for devotion feats can give a very limitted, magical boost to any build.

[torrasque666]

Why not just point her to a race that comes with some nifty SLA's? That way its like the magic stuff is intrinsic to her?

Also a single level of cloistered cleric on the front end, in order to cash in domains for devotion feats can give a very limitted, magical boost to any build.

Because, if you actually read the OP, she will not take a race other than Catfolk(or other cat-like race. Bandied about Anthro Cat but she liked Catfolk better)

[Oddman80]

Because, if you actually read the OP, she will not take a race other than Catfolk(or other cat-like race. Bandied about Anthro Cat but she liked Catfolk better)

hey friend, I read the OP yesterday. I fully agreed with the straight totemist suggestion. It just seems perfect. But it seemed like you were still fishing for more options - i thought i'd bring up race again.. though I probably should have been more specific.

Absent an explaination of why she wants catfolk so much, though... i was working under the assumption that she just really likes cats.

Shall we assume that she has already been shown, and has discarded Tibbit and Cat Hengeyokai as options? Being able to transform from humanoid into a non-descript house-cat could be rather useful.

Absent that - there are always templates that could be added to her catfolk. such as Feral Shadow-walker..

[torrasque666]

Yeah, its mostly she loves cats. And she's wanted to play a cat person for a while.

I'm reluctant to suggest the Hengenyokai mostly because its from Oriental Adventures, which if I recall correctly, is technically part of the Rokugan setting, as well as 3.0 not 3.5. It just won't mesh well with our setting.

I had already showed her the Tibbit and she didn't want to play that.

Feral looks nice., any other +1 LA suggestions for her? Since we use buy-off, I'd prefer for her to be able to start with all her class levels, and +3 doesn't even get any bought off until 9.

Forgot, my group doesn't allow the use of templates.

[Prime32]

I'm reluctant to suggest the Hengenyokai mostly because its from Oriental Adventures, which if I recall correctly, is technically part of the Rokugan setting, as well as 3.0 not 3.5. It just won't mesh well with our setting.The 3.5 update just changes it from an LA +1 Shapechanger to an LA +0 Humanoid (shapechanger).

[torrasque666]

It was less that its from 3.0 and more that it just won't mesh well with our setting.

[infomatic]

The only knock on Totemist that I can see is that if you've got three heads, six-plus limbs and feathery wings, are you still a cat?

Granted, that's more up to the player — it's certainly possible to pick soulmelds that don't stray too far from the I'm-A-Kitty flavor, though they may not be the most potent options.

But if she has a problem with the image, I'd second the Swordsage/Bloodclaw master approach.

[zyggythorn]

DragonBorn of Bahamut (body)

The big thing is that it adds a breath attack to a base race, and while (very) technically a template- just imagine doom kitty kitty screaming lightning (stormwrack is your friend) or frost (frostburn is VERY MUCH your friend) or what have you.

as for the Class issue- Might I suggest Wild Shape Ranger X/Fangshield ranger ACF (2,4,5- Natural attacks, +2 to animal companion, +1 AC during either day or night)/Warshaper Y?

Has a savage feel to it, and the 'magic' here being shouting Fus Ro Die and wild shape.

[Val666]

What a about the Chaotic Evil Tibbit Soulborn 2/ Stoneblessed (Goliath) 3/ Barbarian 1? Followed by Totemist 2/Warshaper 3/ Totem Rager 9

It's a good infiltrator spy with that hide bonus and being tiny and in battle just go mountain rage and become Large. Lots of natural attacks and damage. :vvv

[torrasque666]

Already brought up Tibbit, see above. She doesn't like it.

Chaotic Evil is not allowed within our group and she doesn't seem the type to be able to play it well.

[Val666]

OK uhmmm After all the advice here, what else do you want Dx!? I mean which part doesn't convince you?

[ShurikVch]

Classes related to cats (maybe something interesting)

Animal Lord (CAdv) - Catlady

Infused (Dr#321) - among available celestials there is Leonal, which will give mane, bite, and claws on feet

Shen (Dr#319) - animal-themed monks. Among various animals there are panther and tiger. (Not required levels in Monk, or lawful alignment)

Tiger Mask (Dr#300) - evil cultist of rakshasa. 5 levels. Give claws, fur, and tiger face

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah, its mostly she loves cats. And she's wanted to play a cat person for a while.


...why not Tibbit then? Tibbit totemists are hilarious. It's like playing Stitch. Aw, boo.

Well if that's out, and you don't want to stick with totemist, there's always psychic warrior. Claws of the beast and bite of the wolf refluff very easily.

Oooor you could see if your DM will let you do some class feature equivalency trading. Ranger > Wildshape Ranger (UA), then trade Wildshape and your animal companion for Shapeshift (PHB-II, Druid). Trade spellcasting for a bonus feat every four levels (from CCham), maybe trade Favored Enemy for Favored Terrain (UA)?

[Val666]

...why not Tibbit then? Tibbit totemists are hilarious. It's like playing Stitch.

He will answer with: I've already showed her Tibbit and she doesn't like it. Read above.

[Troacctid]

Straight Totemist should be fine, honestly. It's a sweet class and it fits her concept well. You can make it more Dex-based by focusing on ranged attacks (with Manticore Belt).

[torrasque666]

I showed her this thread, and she said that she was interested in the totem rager idea, as well as the swordsage one.

[ShurikVch]

http://savepic.org/6190932.jpg

[nedz]

this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2Ffools%2F20030401c)page may be relevant. It contains the Cheshire Cat amongst other stuff.