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View Full Version : How much stone to start a Wall of Stone?



Jack_Simth
2007-03-16, 05:18 PM
Firstly, the spell in question (http://srd.pbemnexus.com/spellsTtoZ.html#wall-of-stone):


Wall of Stone

Conjuration (Creation) [Earth]
Level: Clr 5, Drd 6, Earth 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Stone wall whose area is up to one 5-ft. square/level (S)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: NoThis spell creates a wall of rock that merges into adjoining rock surfaces. A wall of stone is 1 inch thick per four caster levels and composed of up to one 5-foot square per level. You can double the wallís area by halving its thickness. The wall cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object.
Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire. The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone. It can be used to bridge a chasm, for instance, or as a ramp. For this use, if the span is more than 20 feet, the wall must be arched and buttressed. This requirement reduces the spellís area by half. The wall can be crudely shaped to allow crenellations, battlements, and so forth by likewise reducing the area.
Like any other stone wall, this one can be destroyed by a disintegrate spell or by normal means such as breaking and chipping. Each 5-foot square of the wall has 15 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 8. A section of wall whose hit points drop to 0 is breached. If a creature tries to break through the wall with a single attack, the DC for the Strength check is 20 + 2 per inch of thickness.
It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.
Arcane Material Component: A small block of granite.(Emphasis added)
If I've got a Cleric-9 of Fharlanghn running around making shelters with Wall of Stone along the road after each day's travel (he gets 9 five-foot squares at 2 inches thick; a 5x5x10 box, roof, walls, and floor, with a five-foot square missing for entry and exit, using Stone Shape to carve out Fharlanghn's symbol on the side one inch deep, so people will know where it came from - great for keeping out of the weather, and durable enough that the next traveler can use it, too).

When he's using Stone Shape to carve Fharlanghn's symbol into the side, how much does he need to harvest to seed the next when traveling through a desert (no rock, just sand)?

Assuming 1 pound tiles at 1 inch thick (with granite, that's a little over a 10 cubic inches, so a 5x2 tile, using modern values for the density of granite), how many are needed? One for the middle? One for each corner (4)? An outline (72)? The entire footprint (720 of the tiles)? Or something else entirely?

Granted, it's mostly flavor (Endure Elements is a 1st level spell), but I prefer to have the mechanics down right.

goat
2007-03-16, 06:13 PM
PERSONALLY, I'd let you stoneshape sand into sandstone, and then build on that...

So, this little hut is... what? 5x5 base, 10 feet tall? 5x10 base? 5 feet tall? The first of those uses 8 sheets, the second 7. 9 and 9 if you floor them, but that would reall only need a thin layer. If you gave them sloping roofs, they would be taller, but you'd need more stone, which would involve thinning it out, probably ok for the roof, but not the walls. Anyway, that aside.

For supporting it, I'd argue that it needs to merge with supporting stone when support is necessary, and the only thing other than metal (which the spell doesn't affect) capable of supporting it is rock. Of course, you COULD support it by bridging in the traditional fashion of mortar-less bridge building... but errrm...

It is a creation spell, not a transmutation. It's not shaping stone, it's creating it ex nihilo as it were. I think I'd let you get away with most things I'd allow with Wall of Iron. That springs into existance from nowhere without needing iron, I'd let the stone do the same.

Thiel
2007-03-16, 06:20 PM
Enough to make the cornerstones. Cornerstones are almost always seen as something special so it makes sense fluff-vice.
As for the mechanics, I really don't know. If you make a foundation of sand to put the cornerstones on it should work since the stone floor wont be supporting anything. Unfortunately it's desert sand we're dealing with here and it has a nasty habit of shifting hence leaving the floor unsupported. (Which, actually, is the reason why it's possible and probably profitable to sell sand in Sahara)

Sorry if my reply killed any catgirls.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-16, 06:22 PM
Um. Per RAW like a 1inch by 1 inch cube of granite would be enough. Where are you getting the idea that you need to layout a pattern or anything? Hell per RAW a 1 CM by 1 CM block would be enough.

I interpret the spell as a spell like major creation except that it needs a sample of what it is supposed to create and it only does stone.

Collin152
2007-03-16, 06:22 PM
Hm. Desert, eh? Create Water + Transmute mud to rock + wall of stone + stoneshape = Pure ... Ingenuity!

goat
2007-03-16, 06:29 PM
Um. Per RAW like a 1inch by 1 inch cube of granite would be enough. Where are you getting the idea that you need to layout a pattern or anything?

The "must merge with and be supported by existing stone" bit.

Also, sand+water /= mud.

Of course, if it's a non-sand desert, then it makes perfect sense.

Jack_Simth
2007-03-16, 06:36 PM
PERSONALLY, I'd let you stoneshape sand into sandstone, and then build on that...

So, this little hut is... what? 5x5 base, 10 feet tall? 5x10 base? 5 feet tall? The first of those uses 8 sheets, the second 7. 9 and 9 if you floor them, but that would reall only need a thin layer. If you gave them sloping roofs, they would be taller, but you'd need more stone, which would involve thinning it out, probably ok for the roof, but not the walls. Anyway, that aside.

For supporting it, I'd argue that it needs to merge with supporting stone when support is necessary, and the only thing other than metal (which the spell doesn't affect) capable of supporting it is rock. Of course, you COULD support it by bridging in the traditional fashion of mortar-less bridge building... but errrm...

It is a creation spell, not a transmutation. It's not shaping stone, it's creating it ex nihilo as it were. I think I'd let you get away with most things I'd allow with Wall of Iron. That springs into existance from nowhere without needing iron, I'd let the stone do the same.

Five foot tall, 10 foot long, five feet wide is the intent; including the floor in the figures. Regardless of orientation (because of the floor), that's four segments of 5x10 and two segments of 5x5, minus a 5x5 segment for the "door". A small, but rather sturdy, hut, just big enough to put a few bedrolls down out of the rain, or ride out a storm (has to get pretty bad to actually damage something with hardness 8... and if it gets that bad, it's still got 30 HP for being two inches thick, and most things deal half damage to objects to begin with....). They are for those traveling; not designed to encourage long-term stays (Cleric of Fharlanghn, remember).

RAW, though, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone. Thus, at least one tile.

I suppose the bridging note does bring up an option I missed: two opposite edges covered, which would be 24 tiles (at 5 inches per tile). That's quite carryable....


Um. Per RAW like a 1inch by 1 inch cube of granite would be enough. Where are you getting the idea that you need to layout a pattern or anything? Hell per RAW a 1 CM by 1 CM block would be enough.

I interpret the spell as a spell like major creation except that it needs a sample of what it is supposed to create and it only does stone.
Underlined section in the spell quote: "it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone"

A one inch cube does not solid support make for a 5ftx5ftx10ft object.

Fizban
2007-03-16, 06:55 PM
While I'd vote to just handwave the support requirement, seeings how you're creating a structure that lies flat on the ground, you can probably find some lower level spell in Sandstorm that will give you enough stone to support it. I'll go look.

And I'm back. Sad, Transmute Sand to Stone is Druid and Sor/Wiz only, and Wall of Salt has the same requirement as Wall of Stone, so you can't use it for a seed. There was a spell on the boards that conjured a sphere of stone that was intended to be usable as a Wall of Stone seed, but I lost the link.

Jack_Simth
2007-03-16, 07:03 PM
The desert was actually intended as more of an example; the idea is more along the lines of desert, forest, plains, deck of a sailing ship (hmm... would a stone boat float? Steel ones do....), wherever - places you don't find large quantities of stone to build on. A solution that's specific to a sandy desert, while great, isn't fundamentally what I'm after.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-16, 07:16 PM
Well the spell doesn't specify how much has to merge or what counts as a solid foundation. So just say it merges with the 1 inch cube and that the cube is a solid foundation.

Thiel
2007-03-16, 07:18 PM
It should be able to float if the weight of the water it displaces is larger than the boats total weight. Now to make it strong enough that it wont crack. (Boats need to be flexible, stone isn't)

Collin152
2007-03-16, 07:37 PM
Also, sand+water /= mud.

Well now your just being argumentive.