Beating Pun-Pun- How to?

[atemu1234]

This is entirely theoretical, mind.

As a player in a game, when another player succeeds at making Pun-Pun (a Rank NI Deity), how do I/should I, in PvP, combat it.

Obviously this is meant to be a challenge, so pretty much anything from 3e/3.5e/PF is acceptable (and no making a Pun-Pun to fight Pun-Pun).

[The Glyphstone]

Depends on the iteration. But once Pun-Pun is active, even he cannot defeat himself, since his power suite includes time travel - if the other character has already ascended, you are toast, since he is now capable of retroactively killing you if you become a threat (time travel tenses are weird). The only way to beat a Pun-Pun is to take them out before they become Pun-Pun, which requires both time travel of your own and a shorter build time.

The Omniscifier comes online at level 4, so it beats the Level 5 Pun-Pun ascension. Not sure if anything beats the Level 1 Pazuzu Paladin ascension.

[Ansem]

Beating pun-pun is easy, the fact pun-pun is your opponent means you can also make an illegal character build.

[A Tad Insane]

Pun pun literally has all the spells, spell likes, supernaturals, extraordinarys and feats. His stats are as close to infinite as he wants. It is not an exaggeration to say pun pun is larger than life. That's what makes pun pun who he is.

[aleucard]

Personally, I think fighting one pre to mid ascendance would be interesting as a campaign, provided that the process is slowed down enough that it's at least theoretically possible for an elite party to take it on by the time they're ready. Maybe Pun-Pun or whatever you call your version has a Prototype-style ability to consume targets, giving them a progressively larger chunk of the target's power as more samples are taken. This should help keep it from becoming truly broken, as if you use the 'true' version, the whole thing can take as little as a minute of in-game time to become unstoppable.

[Jormengand]

Quick-draw, the Staff of Rapid Barrage, and a lot of extradimensional storage space.

(Not actually sure this works, please don't kill me.)

[StoneCipher]

Be the DM and instant kill it.

Or

Ask the DM to instant kill it.

[Twilightwyrm]

Trick it into worshiping the Lady of Pain. If anything in the multiverse can kill a creature with NI power, it is the one thing that has not been stated.

[eggynack]

Beating pun-pun is easy, the fact pun-pun is your opponent means you can also make an illegal character build.
No, pun-pun is completely legal. Stupid, but legal. Also, even an illegal character build would struggle to defeat pun-pun. The build already gets to create any ability it wants, after all, and after that point, I'm not really sure how much further down the rabbit hole it's possible to go.

[Astralia123]

No, pun-pun is completely legal. Stupid, but legal. Also, even an illegal character build would struggle to defeat pun-pun. The build already gets to create any ability it wants, after all, and after that point, I'm not really sure how much further down the rabbit hole it's possible to go.

Quite true, and it is technically invulnerable.



So what I can think of is to defining "defeat" into something other than "killing/disabling the subject in combat or actually any circumstance". Maybe a contest in which the one who is definitely more powerful loses.
Although it is totally possible for a pun-pun to invent an ability to ensure itself to win even under such a circumstance.

[Telonius]

Ask him to prove his power by making a rock so big that he can't lift it. He'll disappear in a puff of paradox.

[Norin]

You bring this to the table:
http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1481596

...with a silly grin on your face. :smallbiggrin:

[Bad Wolf]

Unless you're playing the Lady of Pain or Ao's master, I don't think you have a chance.

[ShurikVch]

How about the same magic which killed Kiararansalee? Cast on timeless plane to prevent time travels...

What's about the Elder Evils? Big three: Atropus, Leviathan, and Pandorym are not stated. And Pandorym wish to kill all gods...

Restore divinity of Orcus. The Last Word FTW

[Astralia123]

I guess it is technically no way to trick a pun-pun by normal diplomacy, as it certainly has indefinite sense motive ranks, which automatically allows it to 100% non-magically read surface thoughts.
And this is only its default defense to deceiving. When it actively takes an action or makes a skill check or so to verify its least bit of suspicion, chances to successfully deceive it becomes strictly 0. (Unless such a deceiving is performed by the god of lies or something like that. Even that may not work, depending on whether the pun-pun did anything in advance to prevent himself from being fooled by such tricks.)

[Lightlawbliss]

how you defeat punpun: find a way past immunity to everything.

diplomancer convinces punpun to commit suicide. (requires finding a way for punpun to commit suicide)

[Astralia123]

how you defeat punpun: find a way past immunity to everything.

diplomancer convinces punpun to commit suicide. (requires finding a way for punpun to commit suicide)

Again it depends on whether this pun-pun is aware of such possibilities in advance.

Like, you are immune to fire? We've got hell fire. You are immune to lightning? We've got heavenly lightning. And then the pun-pun grants himself immunity to hell fire and heavenly lightning.

[The Glyphstone]

You bring this to the table:
http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1481596

...with a silly grin on your face. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, I noted Omniscifier can beat Level 5 PunPun. But it can't beat Level 1 PunPun who ascends as a Paladin praying to Pazuzu.


how you defeat punpun: find a way past immunity to everything.

diplomancer convinces punpun to commit suicide. (requires finding a way for punpun to commit suicide)

The problem is that PunPun will be immune to mind-affecting effects, which negates Fanatic status, and anything less than Fanatic won't be enough to compel suicide.

[Astralia123]

Yeah, I noted Omniscifier can beat Level 5 PunPun. But it can't beat Level 1 PunPun who ascends as a Paladin praying to Pazuzu.
So the problem becomes that, a pun-pun (who is now invincible) can make itself relatively invincible before it becomes what it is like now, and thus hinting the possibility it makes itself at least as invincible back to when it should've been vulnerable. With time traveling available as an option...

[Lightlawbliss]

...
The problem is that PunPun will be immune to mind-affecting effects, which negates Fanatic status, and anything less than Fanatic won't be enough to compel suicide.
I wasn't thinking Fanatic, I was thinking good old fashion convince him that suicide is the best course of action. Never said it would be easy, but it might work.

[eggynack]

I wasn't thinking Fanatic, I was thinking good old fashion convince him that suicide is the best course of action. Never said it would be easy, but it might work.
Not really, particularly if he can anticipate the action, which he can. Pun-pun has more than immune to mind affecting. Pun-pun has immune to diplomacy. Ultimately, I'm not even sure that pun-pun can beat pun-pun, and there's really nothing better than pun-pun, apart from maybe something unstatted, as has been mentioned. Maybe not though.

[Brookshw]

Not really, particularly if he can anticipate the action, which he can. Pun-pun has more than immune to mind affecting. Pun-pun has immune to diplomacy. Ultimately, I'm not even sure that pun-pun can beat pun-pun, and there's really nothing better than pun-pun, apart from maybe something unstatted, as has been mentioned. Maybe not though.

You might also be able to pull it off via some obscure edition diving (pre 3.0 generally), there are plenty of strange properties in little corners, such as messing with a halfling in the green fields portion of Celestia causes you to just suffer the same. Most such things were never updated though and the wording could leave some wiggle room so whether any particular is valid is quite questionable.

[Inevitability]

Ask him to prove his power by making a rock so big that he can't lift it. He'll disappear in a puff of paradox.

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy reference? Good, we need more of those. :smallwink:


And on-topic, diplomancy is always an option. Or making a faustian pact to get a 9th-level spellslot, then have your 2nd-level wizard travel back in time. Or permanently stopping time with Persisted Extended Time Stop cheese.

Of course, Pun-Pun could stop those 'attacks' without problem. A simple Foresight spell would probably already enable him to stop most threats.

[Beardbarian]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?238255-New-amp-Improved-Assplomancer) is the only solution

[nedz]

Pun pun literally has all the spells, spell likes, supernaturals, extraordinarys and feats. His stats are as close to infinite as he wants. It is not an exaggeration to say pun pun is larger than life. That's what makes pun pun who he is.

Except that he doesn't have all of the Far Realms stuff — or does he ?

If he does delve Far Out then that should compromise him, if he doesn't then there is an angle here. Now the angle is probably shaped like a python on roller skates doing a lutz but it is still an angle.

[Thanatosia]

As I understand it, the full blown to the limit Pun-pun is unbeatable by anything other then DM fiat because he's sent some sort of clones of himself to the end of the time and used them to edit out any possible timelines where anything bad happens to him, so any attempt to defeat him is automatically defeated before it can even start due to time manipulation shennanigans.

[ShurikVch]

As I understand it, the full blown to the limit Pun-pun is unbeatable by anything other then DM fiat because he's sent some sort of clones of himself to the end of the time and used them to edit out any possible timelines where anything bad happens to him, so any attempt to defeat him is automatically defeated before it can even start due to time manipulation shennanigans. Pun-pun will outsmart himself: one of his clones will made impossible appearance of Pun-pun in all variants of the future
Come on, all time-traveling villains failing on this step!

[Malroth]

Say its not pre ascention, say your previously 4th lv party defeats the miniboss getting enough xp to reach 5th and suddenly your Kobold divine minion party member starts cackling madly and turns himself into a Skarruah.

[tyckspoon]

Say its not pre ascention, say your previously 4th lv party defeats the miniboss getting enough xp to reach 5th and suddenly your Kobold divine minion party member starts cackling madly and turns himself into a Skarruah.

Oh, that's trivial - you cast Sword at his familiar until it dies. Sarrukhs can't Manipulate Form themselves, so he has to give the ability to his familiar and have it used on himself at least once. That leaves a gap of an action or two where you can intervene by either destroying the familiar or just killing the Kobold/Familiar before he can grant himself absolute invulnerability (but act quick, because if he thinks he's going to be betrayed this is the first thing he'll give himself/his familiar. Possibly even before he gives the familiar Manipulate Form to actually start the ascension loop.)

[ben-zayb]

AFAIK the Terminator (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1033641) is the closest to do such a feat, albeit only under certain assumptions.

[Skysaber]

Re: Pun Pun, I was reading someone defend him against a challenger, and their argument centered around a divine power which provided advance warning of threats to his portfolios - and I realized this person defending him had just proved the NON-existence of Pun Pun, as Pun Pun himself represents an infinite threat to an infinite number of deities, so if that divine power exists (and it does) then before Pun Pun arose to any significant level of power, even before he took his first Wish, an infinite number of deities got warning about him and stopped him.

I shared this line of reasoning with my DM and he agreed. So no Pun Pun. His own infinities prevented his very existence.

[Phelix-Mu]

Re: Pun Pun, I was reading someone defend him against a challenger, and their argument centered around a divine power which provided advance warning of threats to his portfolios - and I realized this person defending him had just proved the NON-existence of Pun Pun, as Pun Pun himself represents an infinite threat to an infinite number of deities, so if that divine power exists (and it does) then before Pun Pun arose to any significant level of power, even before he took his first Wish, an infinite number of deities got warning about him and stopped him.

I shared this line of reasoning with my DM and he agreed. So no Pun Pun. His own infinities prevented his very existence.

Now I must homebrew Pun-Pun the vestige, Overgod that Wasn't.

[Skysaber]

Now I must homebrew Pun-Pun the vestige, Overgod that Wasn't.

Post it when you've got that done, would you? I'd like to see it.

[ShurikVch]

Variant:
Pun-Pun was killed by the second cast of the Karsus's Avatar, and the caster exploded because it's too much power :smallsmile:

[Sith_Happens]

The only way to beat Pun-Pun is to get to him before he's finished becoming Pun-Pun. Preferably by beating him to the punch.:smallamused:

[ShurikVch]

Radical way: update to 4E

[toapat]

Re: Pun Pun, I was reading someone defend him against a challenger, and their argument centered around a divine power which provided advance warning of threats to his portfolios - and I realized this person defending him had just proved the NON-existence of Pun Pun, as Pun Pun himself represents an infinite threat to an infinite number of deities, so if that divine power exists (and it does) then before Pun Pun arose to any significant level of power, even before he took his first Wish, an infinite number of deities got warning about him and stopped him.

I shared this line of reasoning with my DM and he agreed. So no Pun Pun. His own infinities prevented his very existence.

technically this is why punpun spend 16 weeks in the far realms before ascension. you bestow in order immunity to unconsciousness on your familiar and yourself (something often ignored about punpun is exactly how long it takes at the start without that), then immunity to far-realms corruption. then punpun camps out portfoliosense. Once that is done he starts really abusing manipulate form, leaving Int and then Con for last attribute buffed. finally he steals the 20 divine ranks from 20 different gods so none of them notice, although he could have immunity to portfoliosense so the gods cant even percieve him.

[Thanatosia]

Pun-Pun the vestige, Overgod that Wasn't.
Vestige Level: 9th (only obtainable through cheese)
Binding DC: automatic
Special Requirement: Yes
Legend: The Kobold God that never was, had the dieties not intervened, would have used obscure sarrukh powers and a nigh infinite army of squirrels to achieve unlimited divine power and unreasonably absurd stats and powers in everything, forever.
Special Requirements: You must have a Squirrel to aid you in drawing his seal.
Manifestation: After your Squirrel friend etches the last line of Pun-Pun's seal, a chorus of mighty trumpets is heard only by the binder echoing in the distance, and he observes a evermounting growing fountain of pyrotechniques and dazzling lights and sounds, at the very climax of which steps out a single, ordinary looking kobold. Some Binders report hearing a wah-wah-waaaaah sound upon Pun-Pun's manifestation.
Sign: Signs are a limitation, Pun-Pun knows no limitations.
Granted Abilities: Pun-Pun has the ability to grant powers related to his impossible Ascension
Ridiculous Attribute: As a swift action, you can grant any ability score a +50 inherent bonus for 1 round, once used, this ability cannot be used again for 5 rounds.
Squirel Proxy: As a standard action, you can grant your squirrel friend a 0 divine rank for 10 rounds, this ability can only be used once per day.
Any Power: When you make your pact with Pun-Pun, chose any power granted by any vestige, for the next day Pun-Pun grants you that power.

[Phelix-Mu]

Post it when you've got that done, would you? I'd like to see it.

Pun-Pun the Vestige, Overgod that Wasn't

5th level vestige (really, I have no experience with what level it should be...lol)

Powers:

Infinite Versatility: Select up to three levels worth of spells from any spell list. 0-level spells count as 1/2 level spells. After using one of the spells selected, you must wait five rounds before using it again, but may use one of the other spells in the meantime (but must wait five rounds before using that spell again, in turn). These spells are used as Spell-Like Abilities, require no opponents, use their normal casting time, and cost xp to use if the original cost xp to use.

A Bit of Everything: Pun-Pun reached for everything, got nothing, but saw a bit of everything before he was erased. You gain the ability to place up to (Binder Level)x2 of you skill points into a pool, drawn from whatever skills you have ranks in in whatever combination you wish. Skills from which points are drawn suffer a penalty equal to the number of points removed. This pool of skill points persists for the entirety of the time Pun-Pun is bound. At any time, you may place points from this pool into any skill, treating all skills as class skills (thus one rank for each skill point invested), moving around as many points as you wish, all as a full round action. Additionally, you may trade in two of your feats, and select any other two feats for which you qualify. This reassignment may not be done again for five rounds, but may otherwise be used at will. The reassignment is a purely mental action.

Infinite Power, Small Package: The ultimate rulebreaker helps you break a rule. Pun-Pun grants you a single feat, which you may use regardless of pre-requisites.

Only One Chance: Pun-Pun's glimpse of various infinities allows those that bind him to warp probability. Once per day, you get a reroll on any roll, and may take the better of the two rolls (or the worse, if such is your choice).



There you go. Just a first-stab, but I think it's solid. Just not sure what level it should be, as I have remarkably little experience with binders and their varied vestiges.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Saying Pazuzu's name three times does not automatically summon him, it simply establishes a connection for one minute, through which Pazuzu is able to use Detect Good, Detect Law, Detect Thoughts, and Tongues to examine the speaker regardless of distance or being on a different plane. He also uses his +37 Sense Motive and tries to see if the one who calls him means to entrap him. Furthermore,

"Pazuzu particularly enjoys corrupting paladins and takes pains to ensure that the first time he helps a paladin, no evil comes as a result of his assistance, hoping to encourage the paladin to call on him again."

A Paladin would need to summon him multiple times to get any tools that would enable him to perform evil, especially a LE Candle of Invocation which is automatically an evil act to use.

You could summon Pazuzu yourself and tell him that the Pun-Pun plans to use his aid to exceed his power and overthrow his rule, along with that of every other deific creature in the setting. You wouldn't be lying, as Pun-Pun's divine rank alone diminishes the power of every deity in existence by contrast, effectively reducing them to mere lackeys whose rule is only maintained by his mercy. Pazuzu's sense motive check would find no deception in your story, and he would simply stall Pun-Pun until he's converted to CE without giving him the means to gain what he desires!

Otherwise, point out that, "The sarrukh constitute one of the five original progenitor races of Faerun." Then say, "It's a good thing we're not playing in Faerun, those don't exist in this setting so you can't turn into one."

[Skysaber]

technically this is why punpun spend 16 weeks in the far realms before ascension. you bestow in order immunity to unconsciousness on your familiar and yourself (something often ignored about punpun is exactly how long it takes at the start without that), then immunity to far-realms corruption. then punpun camps out portfoliosense. Once that is done he starts really abusing manipulate form, leaving Int and then Con for last attribute buffed. finally he steals the 20 divine ranks from 20 different gods so none of them notice, although he could have immunity to portfoliosense so the gods cant even percieve him.

He's not getting any abilities without running his upgrade engine - which is what makes him the threat. So I fail to see how this protects him. He can't have the abilities you describe to protect himself with, without already having been destroyed because of the danger inherent in his ability to gain infinite abilities.

Long before he gets his first candle of invocation or says the word Pazuzu, he gets himself ganked by an infinite number of deities.

[nedz]

Saying Pazuzu's name three times does not automatically summon him, it simply establishes a connection for one minute, through which Pazuzu is able to use Detect Good, Detect Law, Detect Thoughts, and Tongues to examine the speaker regardless of distance or being on a different plane. He also uses his +37 Sense Motive and tries to see if the one who calls him means to entrap him. Furthermore,

"Pazuzu particularly enjoys corrupting paladins and takes pains to ensure that the first time he helps a paladin, no evil comes as a result of his assistance, hoping to encourage the paladin to call on him again."

A Paladin would need to summon him multiple times to get any tools that would enable him to perform evil, especially a LE Candle of Invocation which is automatically an evil act to use.

You could summon Pazuzu yourself and tell him that the Pun-Pun plans to use his aid to exceed his power and overthrow his rule, along with that of every other deific creature in the setting. You wouldn't be lying, as Pun-Pun's divine rank alone diminishes the power of every deity in existence by contrast, effectively reducing them to mere lackeys whose rule is only maintained by his mercy. Pazuzu's sense motive check would find no deception in your story, and he would simply stall Pun-Pun until he's converted to CE without giving him the means to gain what he desires!

Otherwise, point out that, "The sarrukh constitute one of the five original progenitor races of Faerun." Then say, "It's a good thing we're not playing in Faerun, those don't exist in this setting so you can't turn into one."

Oh, in a real game it's very easy to stop Pun Pun — it is a TO operation.
Pun Pun requires several things to be available in the setting, and for Pazuzu to behave as expected.

[Phelix-Mu]

Oh, in a real game it's very easy to stop Pun Pun — it is a TO operation.
Pun Pun requires several things to be available in the setting, and for Pazuzu to behave as expected.

Emphasis mine.

Not a huge issue, but the concept of Pazuzu seems rather at odds with "behave as expected." He is a demon, after all.

[toapat]

He's not getting any abilities without running his upgrade engine - which is what makes him the threat. So I fail to see how this protects him. He can't have the abilities you describe to protect himself with, without already having been destroyed because of the danger inherent in his ability to gain infinite abilities.

Long before he gets his first candle of invocation or says the word Pazuzu, he gets himself ganked by an infinite number of deities.

Events in the far realms are typically outside of Portfoliosense's ability to percieve, and Portfoliosense has a finite range of time it can see ahead. If punpun simply goes to the far-realms, then ascends he gets instagibbed when he uses the candle of Gate. If he waits 16 weeks in the far realms anything he does is outside of portfoliosense and so he gets to ascend without issue.

[ShurikVch]

16 weeks in the far realms How's he will measure time in the Far Realm? :smallconfused:

[Hand_of_Vecna]

How's he will measure time in the Far Realm? :smallconfused:

Divination of the Prime to see how much time has passed there.

Or ya know, after ascending one of his innumerable abilities could be an absolute time sense that works even in the Far Realm.

[BWR]

Trick it into worshiping the Lady of Pain. If anything in the multiverse can kill a creature with NI power, it is the one thing that has not been stated.

Wouldn't work. The Lady (it is assumed) doesn't care what happens outside Sigil so you are free to worship Her Grace outside. She won't let Pun-Pun into Sigil so she won't flay him there.

[Lightlawbliss]

...
Or ya know, after ascending one of his innumerable abilities could be an absolute time sense that works even in the Far Realm.

the meassuring time part was him waiting to ascend so that nobody detects it. Kind hard to use an ability he doesn't have yet.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

the meassuring time part was him waiting to ascend so that nobody detects it. Kind hard to use an ability he doesn't have yet.

I thought the idea was that divine sapience didn't extend to the Far Realms and he needed to wait 16 weeks in the far realms so that his getting the candle that would lead to his ascension wasn't on the radar.

Starting a plan that threatens a god alerts them X weeks before it's culmination.

Being on the Far Realms blocks Divine Sapience.

1. Begin plan.
2. Go to Far Realms for X weeks.
3. Profit.

Otherwise it's a stupid idea because non-ascended Pun-Pun won't last 16 minutes in the Far Realms

[Sith_Happens]

Divination of the Prime to see how much time has passed there.

None.


A minute in the Far Realm equals no time on the Material Plane. The Far Realm is outside time, existing both before and after time's reign, if words like “before” and “after” have any meaning there.

Which means that this plan works even better. As soon as Pun-Pun goes to the Far Realm it's too late for anyone on any other plane to stop him.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

None.



Which means that this plan works even better. As soon as Pun-Pun goes to the Far Realm it's too late for anyone on any other plane to stop him.

In that case would he need to find another way toburn time? If time in the Far Realm where the Gods can't see his actions don't count towards 16 weeks wouldn't they be able to stop him 16 weeks before he calls Pazuzu?

I don't think it needs to be anything fancy, just creat a Demiplane adjacent to the Far Realms that is Far Realms +Normal Time Trait. Or do I just misunderstand the way dodging Divine Sapience works?

[Raven777]

Re: Pun Pun, I was reading someone defend him against a challenger, and their argument centered around a divine power which provided advance warning of threats to his portfolios - and I realized this person defending him had just proved the NON-existence of Pun Pun, as Pun Pun himself represents an infinite threat to an infinite number of deities, so if that divine power exists (and it does) then before Pun Pun arose to any significant level of power, even before he took his first Wish, an infinite number of deities got warning about him and stopped him.

I shared this line of reasoning with my DM and he agreed. So no Pun Pun. His own infinities prevented his very existence.

Pun-Pun starts out in Sigil. Your move.

[Skysaber]

Events in the far realms are typically outside of Portfoliosense's ability to percieve, and Portfoliosense has a finite range of time it can see ahead. If punpun simply goes to the far-realms, then ascends he gets instagibbed when he uses the candle of Gate. If he waits 16 weeks in the far realms anything he does is outside of portfoliosense and so he gets to ascend without issue.

Going to far realms without the ability to survive there is suicide. To gain the ability to survive there requires that he be using the pun pun tricks for getting any ability he wants. What you do not seem to understand is that it is THAT ability, his ability to gain any ability he wants, that represents the threat, and would cause that he be detected and destroyed.

It's not his ascension into godhood that's the threat. That's a trivial issue, and guaranteed once he has the other. Once he has the ability to gain any ability he wants, he has become infinite, and therefore an infinite threat, to an infinite number of deities.

[Skysaber]

Pun-Pun starts out in Sigil. Your move.

Planescape was a 2e setting. Does it even exist in 3.5?

If not, it's no better than homebrew for a strict RAW approach like Pun Pun. I throw Farslayer at her.

[Raven777]

Planescape was a 2e setting. Does it even exist in 3.5?

If not, it's no better than homebrew for a strict RAW approach like Pun Pun. I throw Farslayer at her.

Manual of the Planes (https://www.google.ca/search?q=3.5+manual+planes). The Sword of Vengeance is homebrew!

EDIT : Woops, that's the 3.0 one. Be right back... Planar Handbook (https://www.google.ca/search?q=3.5+planar+handbook).

[Twilightwyrm]

Wouldn't work. The Lady (it is assumed) doesn't care what happens outside Sigil so you are free to worship Her Grace outside. She won't let Pun-Pun into Sigil so she won't flay him there.

Really now? I was unaware of that particular facet of her personality. This begs the question though...people that have been to Sigil, and know of the Lady of Pain, have come and gone many times in the past. I wonder why, then, there is no mention of cults to the Lady of Pain that exist outside of Sigil, worshiping her from afar as it were.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Really now? I was unaware of that particular facet of her personality. This begs the question though...people that have been to Sigil, and know of the Lady of Pain, have come and gone many times in the past. I wonder why, then, there is no mention of cults to the Lady of Pain that exist outside of Sigil, worshiping her from afar as it were.

I would assume that the kind of weirdo that has a burning desire to worship something that may or may not be a deity that clearly doesn't want to be worshiped and has never produced a cleric isn't together enough to take advantage of this.

[Sith_Happens]

Pun-Pun starts out in Sigil. Your move.

Gaining divine ranks in Sigil is highly inadvisable. But that just means you go to the Far Realm before doing that part.

[Raven777]

Gaining divine ranks in Sigil is highly inadvisable. But that just means you go to the Far Realm before doing that part.

Exactly. Get Omnipotence, escape to Far Realms, gain Divinity.

[Sith_Happens]

Exactly. Get Omnipotence, escape to Far Realms, gain Divinity.

The safest plan is to start by gaining the ability to survive in the Far Realms indefinitely, then escape there and do everything else. Something tells me that the Lady wouldn't take kindly to someone only not being a god on a technicality.

[Skysaber]

The Sword of Vengeance is homebrew!

Exactly.

Pun Pun works on one thing and one thing only, being exactly 100% RAW, with no fudge room or approximation. He must be EXACTLY and COMPLETELY legal, or else he falls apart completely, because no one would even come close to allowing anything even half so broken under RAI.

So he must be provably accurate on every point, or he has nothing.


EDIT : Woops, that's the 3.0 one. Be right back... Planar Handbook (https://www.google.ca/search?q=3.5+planar+handbook).

Just whipped out my copy and opened that up. Found Sigil, and I found a short amount of fluff text, but absolutely no rules worth mentioning. And since TO practice is always to toss the fluff text as valueless, I am afraid the burden of proof is back on you.

[Raven777]

At that point, though, the Gods bothering to intervene is no less fluff than the Lady of Pain keeping them out of Sigil.
Since use of Pazuzu seems to grandfather in that beings will behave as expected, I go back to hiding behind the Lady of Pain.
Back to you. (I'll be back tomorrow morning).

[Skysaber]

At that point, though, the Gods bothering to intervene is no less fluff than the Lady of Pain keeping them out of Sigil.
Since use of Pazuzu seems to grandfather in that beings will behave as expected, I go back to hiding behind the Lady of Pain.
Back to you. (I'll be back tomorrow morning).

Incorrect, sir.

Portfolio sense is a defined ability with a defined purpose and function that covers this particular scenario. There are creatures who have it, and it is RAW.

And arguments of "seems to" are exactly the sort of clauses that can't be allowed in any discussion of Pun Pun, because he relies on half a dozen abilities wrenched completely out of any context they should "seem to" work in. Like I said before, he is either 100% provably legal, or he's got nothing.

Besides, go back to hide behind your Lady of Pain all you like. Point One, she is only rumored in 3.5 to have the ability you mention, and a rumor mentioned in fluff-text is even more worthless than ordinary fluff-text. Point the Second (and this is the big one) Page 142 of Planar Handbook states, and I quote, that "You can't call or summon creatures into or out of Sigil (even with a Gate spell)".

Since Pun Pun's entire build begins with summoning Pazuzu, then using the Wish gained from that to get a LE Candle of Invocation - for the sole purpose of summoning an Efreet to get more wishes, then Sigil is absolutely the worst place to try this, as it absolutely cannot work.

So he can't gain any abilities and build up safely there, because his whole build depends on something that Sigil specifically disallows.

Before Pazuzu, Pun Pun is just a kobold. After the Efreet, he has already achieved everything needed to make him an infinite threat to an infinite number of deities. He MUST summon to achieve greatness, and the one place he cannot do that summoning is Sigil.

Back to you.

[nedz]

Going to far realms without the ability to survive there is suicide. To gain the ability to survive there requires that he be using the pun pun tricks for getting any ability he wants. What you do not seem to understand is that it is THAT ability, his ability to gain any ability he wants, that represents the threat, and would cause that he be detected and destroyed.

It's not his ascension into godhood that's the threat. That's a trivial issue, and guaranteed once he has the other. Once he has the ability to gain any ability he wants, he has become infinite, and therefore an infinite threat, to an infinite number of deities.

this, also how does a level 1 Paladin get to the Far Realms in the first place ?

He can't go there pre-ascension and so he will trip portfolio sense before he gets to do this.

[Svata]

this, also how does a level 1 Paladin get to the Far Realms in the first place ?

He can't go there pre-ascension and so he will trip portfolio sense before he gets to do this.

As has been stated repetedly, portfolio sense only works up to 16 weeks out. You go post-ascension, but before planning anything that would trigger it. You stay for 16 weeks. Then you come back, after your previous actions are outside its range.

[eggynack]

Wait a sec. Is becoming an infinite threat to an infinite number of deities a thing that's actually in any god's portfolio? More specifically, is there a way to structure ascension such that you only get non-pinging abilities until you're already 16 weeks in? Seems reasonably possible, depending on the pantheon we're working with.

[nedz]

As has been stated repetedly, portfolio sense only works up to 16 weeks out. You go post-ascension, but before planning anything that would trigger it. You stay for 16 weeks. Then you come back, after your previous actions are outside its range.

But why would you go to the Far Realms if you weren't planning something ?

Also, it can be argued, the simply fact of performing the ascension could be enough to trigger PS.

[toapat]

Going to far realms without the ability to survive there is suicide. To gain the ability to survive there requires that he be using the pun pun tricks for getting any ability he wants. What you do not seem to understand is that it is THAT ability, his ability to gain any ability he wants, that represents the threat, and would cause that he be detected and destroyed.

It's not his ascension into godhood that's the threat. That's a trivial issue, and guaranteed once he has the other. Once he has the ability to gain any ability he wants, he has become infinite, and therefore an infinite threat, to an infinite number of deities.

you are assuming that Punpun ignorantly dives into the Far realms with the Candle of Invocation (Lawful Evil). No character in DnD can. This is actually an oversight of the punpun threads. He should actually summon the sarrukh on a different plane (preferably one adverse to the Sarrukh's alignment for the disorientation), then apply a number of different effects to specifically allow Punpun to hide in the Far Realms for 16 weeks without going insane, mutating horribly into an unspeakable horror which must be described in excruciating detail, or have his digestive tract reverse directions. Because its the far realms. One of these includes allowing chrono-sychronization with the prime material while on the far realms, so he can hide away while portfoliosense ticks away. Mystra (because its still a damn lot of magic) and anyone with Scalykind/Kobold Domain wont see any flags besides "Insane, yet rediculously cautious Kobold" till he starts using Ice Assassin SLAs to gain divine ranks and by that point hes already omnipotent.

You clearly dont understand how Portfoliosense works if you think he triggers more then 10 printed gods worth of annoyance before hitting godhood. It has a 16 week limit, and can only perceive the actions and influences of beings who are taking actions that involve the specific portfolio. The Magic, Scalykind, Kobold, and Planning Domains are the only ones relevant to stopping Kobolds, and of those the actions which Punpun takes wont register on any significant level beyond those with Magic who see the gate spell and the planning domain who see that hes taking summer break this year in the far realms. The next time any god sees him is when he starts using Ice Assassins to gain Divine ranks, By which point he is omnipotent, omniscient, and a god in all but technicality while

[nyjastul69]

Planescape was a 2e setting. Does it even exist in 3.5?

If not, it's no better than homebrew for a strict RAW approach like Pun Pun. I throw Farslayer at her.

There is some info on Sigil in Expedition to the Demon Web Pits. I don't know if LoP is mentioned. There isn't much on it though, IIRC. It's been a while since I've looked at that book.

[Shining Wrath]

Given that Pun-Pun has all power and time travel to boot, and has already gone ahead to the end of time and eliminated all paths leading to the eventual defeat of Pun-pun, there's only one way to do it.

You have to have an omnipotent creature from outside the entire space-time continuum of the multiverse where Pun-Pun exists intrude into the Pun-Pun world, kill him, and then withdraw without leaving a trace.

So find a pantheon that WotC has never used in any splatbook or Dragon Magazine article, pick a deity of sufficient power, and convince them to kill Pun-Pun. Then you must ensure that WotC never publishes any splat book referencing that pantheon.

Question: would a 5e splatbook constitute entry into Pun-Pun's multiverse?

[Raven777]

Incorrect, sir.

Portfolio sense is a defined ability with a defined purpose and function that covers this particular scenario. There are creatures who have it, and it is RAW.

And arguments of "seems to" are exactly the sort of clauses that can't be allowed in any discussion of Pun Pun, because he relies on half a dozen abilities wrenched completely out of any context they should "seem to" work in. Like I said before, he is either 100% provably legal, or he's got nothing.

Besides, go back to hide behind your Lady of Pain all you like. Point One, she is only rumored in 3.5 to have the ability you mention, and a rumor mentioned in fluff-text is even more worthless than ordinary fluff-text. Point the Second (and this is the big one) Page 142 of Planar Handbook states, and I quote, that "You can't call or summon creatures into or out of Sigil (even with a Gate spell)".

Since Pun Pun's entire build begins with summoning Pazuzu, then using the Wish gained from that to get a LE Candle of Invocation - for the sole purpose of summoning an Efreet to get more wishes, then Sigil is absolutely the worst place to try this, as it absolutely cannot work.

So he can't gain any abilities and build up safely there, because his whole build depends on something that Sigil specifically disallows.

Before Pazuzu, Pun Pun is just a kobold. After the Efreet, he has already achieved everything needed to make him an infinite threat to an infinite number of deities. He MUST summon to achieve greatness, and the one place he cannot do that summoning is Sigil.

Back to you.

Fair enough. I'm convinced. Sigil is a terrible place to try this. I'll default to Toapat's take on Portfolio Sense.

[Coidzor]

Exactly.

Pun Pun works on one thing and one thing only, being exactly 100% RAW, with no fudge room or approximation. He must be EXACTLY and COMPLETELY legal, or else he falls apart completely, because no one would even come close to allowing anything even half so broken under RAI.

So he must be provably accurate on every point, or he has nothing.

You had me up until you expressed the thought that anyone would allow Pun Pun for any other reason than the lulz.

[Brookshw]

Since use of Pazuzu seems to grandfather in that beings will behave as expected


I've always had to wonder at that, it's a bit strange given his usual MO. Yes, absolutely he goes out of his way to corrupt good, and you can summon him via some easy chanting, but there's a plan behind it, a pattern. First, you get someone desperate enough to summon him in an hour of need, moving down the Evil slide you get some help, maybe even a wish. Soon, more join in asking for the aid and sliding further down until you get a nice juicy group who have all sold their souls to evil. It's like sewing a field in preparation for the harvest. The evil keeps mounting, and mounting. Then, we wait for the "Good" to swing by and start in with the smiting. Cults gone now, their souls landing in the confines of the Abyss. Now a few people from the "Good" side learn the secret name "Pazuzu" and the cycle continues, another person gets desperate, summons him, it grows, gets culled, and the secret spreads once more.

However, the idea is they keep having to lean upon him until it's too late (and it's pretty much too late as soon as you start). If he immediately hands out the starting point to infinite wishes, it's really not helping him much in the long run in terms of spreading the corruption of mortals.

Anyway, just strikes me as a bit odd based on his fluff. Heck, if the victim gets the wish engine running, they can quickly get an atonement somewhere in there and that would definitely be self defeating for him. Better for him to be a bit more selective in the type of aid he'll offer.

[Skysaber]

you are assuming that Punpun ignorantly dives into the Far realms with the Candle of Invocation (Lawful Evil). No character in DnD can. This is actually an oversight of the punpun threads. He should actually summon the sarrukh on a different plane (preferably one adverse to the Sarrukh's alignment for the disorientation), then apply a number of different effects to specifically allow Punpun to hide in the Far Realms for 16 weeks without going insane, mutating horribly into an unspeakable horror which must be described in excruciating detail, or have his digestive tract reverse directions. Because its the far realms. One of these includes allowing chrono-sychronization with the prime material while on the far realms, so he can hide away while portfoliosense ticks away. Mystra (because its still a damn lot of magic) and anyone with Scalykind/Kobold Domain wont see any flags besides "Insane, yet rediculously cautious Kobold" till he starts using Ice Assassin SLAs to gain divine ranks and by that point hes already omnipotent.

You clearly dont understand how Portfoliosense works if you think he triggers more then 10 printed gods worth of annoyance before hitting godhood. It has a 16 week limit, and can only perceive the actions and influences of beings who are taking actions that involve the specific portfolio. The Magic, Scalykind, Kobold, and Planning Domains are the only ones relevant to stopping Kobolds, and of those the actions which Punpun takes wont register on any significant level beyond those with Magic who see the gate spell and the planning domain who see that hes taking summer break this year in the far realms. The next time any god sees him is when he starts using Ice Assassins to gain Divine ranks, By which point he is omnipotent, omniscient, and a god in all but technicality while

Please do not tell me what I assume. I will gladly tell you what my conclusions are, along with the logic that led to them.

Most important point first. I am going by the Pun Pun threads, which state that he can gain infinite divine rank via making Ice Assassins of an infinite number of deities, then running their power through squirrels via what amounts to a money laundering scheme.

Making an ice assassin of someone is a clearly hostile act, since the spell states that the ice assassin's sole objective is to destroy the creature it is modeled after. By threatening a deity, you must inherently threaten its portfolios (killing a person is absolutely a threat to that person's future career). On this point we are not arguing (at least, not so far as I am aware). There are other ways in which pun pun threatens the gods, but that's not important to debate right now.

The Pun Pun threads that I am aware of do not limit his ambitions merely to published deities, ergo I do not limit him to them when declaring what deities he threatens. It is clearly stated on every Pun Pun build I am aware of that he intends to achieve infinite divine rank via this method, so infinite deities are threatened and available to react via portfolio sense.

Point the second. You don't appear to be listening to your own argument. You appear to be insisting that pun pun only triggers portfolio sense when he intends to gain divine rank. Allow me to quote from the SRD on Portfolio Sense, "automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios".

So it's not just someone gaining divine ranks. It is "any event".

Now allow me to quote you. You describe Pun Pun pre-ascention as "omnipotent, omniscient, and a god in all but technicality". This is clearly an event worth noticing. And it's a bit like a supernova, in that the unleashing of so much power clearly affects everything. Ergo, all portfolios are affected, therefore anything with portfolio sense and enough divine rank to sense the future would be aware of it.

So at what point is Pun Pun a threat worth noticing? Well, clearly no one can deny that once he has become infinite, he is going to worry people.

Doing a quick search tells us the synonyms for infinite are: boundless, unbounded, unlimited, limitless, never-ending, etc. Also, we know from our math courses that an infinite number is one that is ever growing larger.

So once Pun Pun's abilities are no longer limited by anything but time to increase, he has achieved infinity, and is an infinite threat. And that happens the moment Pun Pun gains the Manipulate Form ability. But that's actually the latest possible interpretation I would consider.

At what point is a US president being assassinated an event? Is it when the bullet shatters his skull? Well, that's one possible interpretation. But certainly you will agree that the bullet being in flight with nothing to stop it from shattering that skull, is part of that event. By that reasoning, the powder in the cartridge igniting, or trigger being pulled, or the rifle taking aim, are all necessary parts of that event.

Frankly, the 'event' that is the assassination of a president begins when those intending the action be performed meet to begin planning the long sequence of necessary actions for that event to take place. So the moment intention meets action, the event is set into motion. Most events don't end up happening, but a large portion of children born don't grow up, either.

I believe that the moment any creature forms the plan to become Pun Pun, and intends to act upon it, that pulls the trigger on that particular rifle, and sets on course a series of actions that is part of a definite event - so even the very idea of becoming Pun Pun is lethal, as it sets virtually every greater deity in the entire multiverse on the warpath to your destruction.

Point the Third. There is no 16 week time limit - except as a minimum. Portfolio sense functions one week for every divine rank, and divine rank 16 is the moment it starts alerting a being of threats in the future. Since divine ranks are theoretically limitless for overdeities (whom Pun Pun ALSO threatens), there is no theoretical limit to the amount of time, before enacting his plan, at which pun pun can be sensed and eliminated.

[bobthedragon]

Level 20 Artificer with full cost reduction cheese and nested thought bottles cheese

Continuous items of shapechange,timeless body, wings of cover, dimensional lock, mind blank
+
Tin foil hat trick (protect from antimagic field)
command item of master earth (same effect as a teleport, but different, so can still be used with dimensional lock)
necklace of adaptation (so I don't need to breath)
ring of sustenance (no need for food or water)

This build is immune to damage, attacks, and effects
it cannot be teleported
it is protected from disjunction, antimagic field, dispel magic
cannot be seen with divination
cannot be teleported anywhere else/banished/sent to another plane/ sent to the sun
Gains infinite wishes from shapechange

Don't know what spells, powers, or effects would be able to kill punpun, but this is RAW build that (as far as I can tell) even pun-pun wouldn't be able to kill, and has access to every item effect and power that could possibly be imagined, so...

Wishes:
Impossible to steal from me
+5 to all abilities
Knowledge of how to kill punpun

[Raven777]

I doubt generic threat against everything is a valid trigger for something that is supposed to be specialized to each portfolio's purview.

[Skysaber]

I doubt generic threat against everything is a valid trigger for something that is supposed to be specialized to each portfolio's purview.

If you were one really messed up druid, some guy whose every thought, word, deed and action, were tied up in a specific garden. One specific garden, that you tended and loved and cared for obsessively. You could know nothing about anything but that garden, or events directly affecting it, but you were also so powerful you knew the future - of that garden alone. You would still become aware of the threat if the Death Star superlaser were about to destroy the planet your garden is on.

And that is the most extreme example of your case. So if it doesn't function under "maximum blindness" then it doesn't hold up under anything.

Pun Pun desires (and fully intends to achieve) all power. There is no power he does not wish to gain. So no matter the portfolio, it is affected.

And it doesn't matter, because even if it wasn't, there are still plenty of greater deities and overdeities willing to stomp him flat a minimum of 16 weeks before he even gets the idea to become pun pun.

[animewatcha]

Depends on the iteration. But once Pun-Pun is active, even he cannot defeat himself, since his power suite includes time travel - if the other character has already ascended, you are toast, since he is now capable of retroactively killing you if you become a threat (time travel tenses are weird). The only way to beat a Pun-Pun is to take them out before they become Pun-Pun, which requires both time travel of your own and a shorter build time.

The Omniscifier comes online at level 4, so it beats the Level 5 Pun-Pun ascension. Not sure if anything beats the Level 1 Pazuzu Paladin ascension.

Wha, wha, wha.. Pazuzu Paladin?

[Brookshw]

Wha, wha, wha.. Pazuzu Paladin?

He means the level 1 paladin ascension via Pazuzu, rather than a paladin of Pazuzu (though after the fall..../shrug).

[ShurikVch]

Pazuzu trick is ridiculous (in-character)
Summoning fiends is one of the vilest things possible
Any LG paladin will fall before wording "Pazuzu" in the first time

Allowing a fiend to exist, let alone summoning one or helping one, is clearly evil.

[toapat]

lots of wrong

1: Ice assassin divine ranks is the last thing punpun does. Hes already omnipotent, omniscient, and has no association to the flow of time by the point hes making Ice Assassins. Ice Assassin falls under Portfolios of Magic and Water (along with other domains im forgetting that cover (Cold)), meaning that beyond a god's foresight of their own death doesnt trigger portfoliosense.

2: Portfoliosense exists for all dieties, its only the scale at which it triggers. Except that any action of punpuns eventually reaches the point where it will trigger portfoliosense because he is omnipotent and omniscient. However you made a mistake, portfoliosense includes prescience at DR11 not DR16. Dieties are not anchored to the normal flow of time and may still influence the past if they witness something outside of the ordinary. 16 is the typical number of weeks i see because i assume that that number comes from no printed Diety having more then 16 salient divine abilities.

3: You are mistaking the use of the word Ascension as the specific use as though to become a god. Punpun's ascension is that he becomes infinitely powerful. but his pre-ascension phase is a period of time where any sufficiently powerful being can stop him a myriad of ways. The largest obstacles to this are the Far Realms and Pazuzu. One is a simple ability to become immune to the planar traits of the Far Realms, the other is someone who will respond to a summons by a LG being. He is Chaotic Evil after all. Being arbitrary in how he goes about his self-serving madness is part of his very being. Get past this point and nothing can stop him. He takes a long period of time, of upto 20 weeks in length, where he does nothing. Sitting on your thumbs watching Myscry.coven is not going to trip any god's portfolio because there are no events to be seen. One of the traits of the far realms is that Deities cant interact directly with them. this means Portfoliosense doesnt see him past the point where the greater diety's prescience matters. Then, and only then, does he start exploiting Expansion/Compression and Manipulate Form to become a god in all but technicality. Then, FINALLY he uses the Ice Assassin Trick to become a god legitimately


Wha, wha, wha.. Pazuzu Paladin?

Pazuzu is called out as being considered a Lawful Good Angel for the most part. This is why he is assumed to play along. Hes really big into corrupting the LG into CE

[Skysaber]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Coidzor]

Pazuzu trick is ridiculous (in-character)
Summoning fiends is one of the vilest things possible
Any LG paladin will fall before wording "Pazuzu" in the first time

That fluff is ridiculous too. Summon Monster II is one of the most evil things one can do because one can use it to summon a Lemure to act as a pincushion? :smallamused:

Now, actually *Calling* Fiends, well, that's a much more tenable position.

And, besides, Pazuzu cheats and makes it so they don't fall, because *shrug*

[Phelix-Mu]

Two minor things strike me as problematic in the believability to the level 1 ascension:

1.) How does this Pun-Pun know anything about the Far Realm? It's not like that tidbit about the flow of time there is likely to be known by many that know about the planes, and this Pun-Pun doesn't seem to know anything about them (potentially).

2.) How does Pun-Pun know the amount of time he needs to spend in the Far Realm? If, as Skysaber says, 16 weeks is really a lower bound, how is Pun-Pun sure he has stayed there long enough to evade the portfolio sense of every power that might conceivably be involved? While #1 can kind of be TO-metagame-handwaved away, I am less convinced on this point.

That's if he actually makes it to the Far Realm, of course.

The next problem I have, Skysaber, is shouldn't an infinite number of deities be gunning for anyone that meets step one of the Pun-Pun plan, which is "be a DWK kobold?"

(Did anyone like my Pun-Pun vestige on page 2? I actually tried to make it playable for a binder, lol)

[ShurikVch]

That fluff is ridiculous too. Summon Monster II is one of the most evil things one can do because one can use it to summon a Lemure to act as a pincushion? :smallamused:

Now, actually *Calling* Fiends, well, that's a much more tenable position.

And, besides, Pazuzu cheats and makes it so they don't fall, because *shrug* 1. Lemures, being devils, are literally made of evil!. Simple act of summoning one increasing amount of Evil in the world. Summon Monster II will get [evil] descriptor
2. You can't even summon Lemure without being Lawful Evil, so your point is moot.
3. Summon Monster II is not on a Paladin's spell list. Double moot :smalltongue:
4. "At will, a paladin can use detect evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm), as the spell." :miko: Any normal Paladin, seeing Pazuzu, will (or, at the very least, attempt) Smite Evil out of him

[ThisIsZen]

Pazuzu is a Demon Lord, which puts him on the same level as the Lords of the Nine or the Celestial Hebdomad - being able to fool level 1 Paladins into thinking he isn't evil is probably an absolutely trivial expenditure of power, not to mention he could have a permanent nondetection effect or similar as an innate part of his nature as a unique Demon.

Also, the Paladin code is rigid and constricting but I'm fairly certain it doesn't obligate suicide. Assuming Pazuzu DID appear before Random Low-Level Paladin #n^32, and detect evil DID work, the sheer strength of the evil aura pouring off of a literal Demon Lord would probably be a good sign to not try and smite this guy, because you will die in a thousand different and increasingly horrible ways all at once just for having nerve to do so.

[Heliomance]

Yeah, I noted Omniscifier can beat Level 5 PunPun. But it can't beat Level 1 PunPun who ascends as a Paladin praying to Pazuzu.



The problem is that PunPun will be immune to mind-affecting effects, which negates Fanatic status, and anything less than Fanatic won't be enough to compel suicide.

On the other hand, Helpful is almost certainly good enough to convince him to lower his immunity to mind-affecting stuff for a moment...

[Coidzor]

1. Lemures, being devils, are literally made of evil!. Simple act of summoning one increasing amount of Evil in the world. Summon Monster II will get [evil] descriptor
2. You can't even summon Lemure without being Lawful Evil, so your point is moot.
3. Summon Monster II is not on a Paladin's spell list. Double moot :smalltongue:
4. "At will, a paladin can use detect evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm), as the spell." :miko: Any normal Paladin, seeing Pazuzu, will (or, at the very least, attempt) Smite Evil out of him

No it doesn't. They're crude facsimilies that go away after a pittance of time.

Not all acts of evil people are evil, nor are all evil acts by evil people the same amount of evil, so your point here is just irrelevant.

Ok, now you're just joking around.

[Brookshw]

No it doesn't. They're crude facsimilies that go away after a pittance of time.

Not all acts of evil people are evil, nor are all evil acts by evil people the same amount of evil, so your point here is just irrelevant.

Ok, now you're just joking around.

I'm a bit unsure as to which point align with which.

Assuming the first of each align that's not completely true (though what fluff someone prescribes to is relevant), but a summoned "copy" (or maybe projection) is not a crude facsimile.

[ShurikVch]

Pazuzu is a Demon Lord, which puts him on the same level as the Lords of the Nine or the Celestial Hebdomad - being able to fool level 1 Paladins into thinking he isn't evil is probably an absolutely trivial expenditure of power, not to mention he could have a permanent nondetection effect or similar as an innate part of his nature as a unique Demon. No known official version of Pazuzu have any special ability to "fool" people, paladins or otherwise (Pazuzu from the ToH at least have Shapechange at will); also no nondetection, permanent or temporal
And please, explain, how our hypothetical paladin succeed on DC 25 check on Knowlege (religion or planes) to say "Pazuzu" three times, yet doesn't possess information from the DC 20 check: "Pazuzu is the demon lord of the Lower Aerial Kingdoms, and is served by evil flying monsters, kenkus, and those who have been corrupted by his offers of aid."


Also, the Paladin code is rigid and constricting but I'm fairly certain it doesn't obligate suicide. Assuming Pazuzu DID appear before Random Low-Level Paladin #n^32, and detect evil DID work, the sheer strength of the evil aura pouring off of a literal Demon Lord would probably be a good sign to not try and smite this guy, because you will die in a thousand different and increasingly horrible ways all at once just for having nerve to do so.Paladin code doesn't need to obligate suicide - paladins fulfill it on their one free will, and with great gusto. Doesn't forget about the Aura of courage - it make them immune to fear. Not just a [fear] effects, but fear itself! There is pretty damn obvious reason why there was less then ten known paladins with double-digit level, who are also not an immortal outsiders.


No it doesn't. They're crude facsimilies that go away after a pittance of time. Crude facsimilies? :smallconfused: Try "carbon copies"!
Summoned Fire Elemental is still made of Fire, summoned Lemure is still made of Evil.
And yes, you increase amount of Evil in the world, because there is a limit to how much devils can be called to the Material Plane (all of them), but there is no limit how much Lemures can be summoned by uppity LE spellcasters


Not all acts of evil people are evil, nor are all evil acts by evil people the same amount of evil, so your point here is just irrelevant.And your point is?..
Also, if spell is not even working like this unless caster is evil, then it should be pretty notable sight about something fishy.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Haley.pngOr do you need, like, 200-foot-tall flaming letters or something?


Ok, now you're just joking around. Just remember the O-Chul