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ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-16, 06:11 PM
Okay, my local gang is convinced that wizards aren't appreciably more powerful than melee classes. And nothing I tell them changes their minds.
I think it's time to win D&D and teach them otherwise.
So, I come to veterans of the game and ask--
How do I make my wizard so full of epic win, that he outshines the entire damn party?
Most of our games are ECL 4, so I'll start there. From there, where do I take it?

squishycube
2007-03-16, 06:19 PM
You take it straight to The Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards: Being Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500).

Krellen
2007-03-16, 06:20 PM
At ECL 4, he doesn't. The Wizard picks up around 7, if I recall all the examples given.

The tricks are saveless and SR-less spells - touch spells like the Orbs from Complete Arcana, Evard's black tentacles, solid fog, and other such spells that pretty much control the battlefield. A lot of it is dependent on 4th level or higher spells.

But I predict Bears With Lasers will be along shortly to correct me where I'm wrong.

ZekeArgo
2007-03-16, 06:23 PM
At ECL 4, he doesn't. The Wizard picks up around 7, if I recall all the examples given.

The tricks are saveless and SR-less spells - touch spells like the Orbs from Complete Arcana, Evard's black tentacles, solid fog, and other such spells that pretty much control the battlefield. A lot of it is dependent on 4th level or higher spells.

But I predict Bears With Lasers will be along shortly to correct me where I'm wrong.

Ya hit the nail on the head with that one. At level 4 the wizard isnt going to be devistating entire groups of enemies single-handedly, but one could *easily* take down any other opponent as long as spell selection is done well.

marjan
2007-03-16, 06:35 PM
Like people said: read The Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards: Being Batman, make your group believe that wizards are weaker than most other classes, wait 'till a bit higher levels and then ... BAM!!!!

Revenge is best served cold. :smallamused:

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-16, 06:37 PM
First Level Spells:
Sleep
Color Spray
Ray of Enfeeblement
Grease

Second Level Spells:
Glitterdust
Alter Self (if you just want to prove power level)
Hideous Laughter
Mirror Image

You need at least 3rd level spells to really start dominating and at least 5th level spells to make the melee types worthless. Once you get 7th level spells you really win. And at 9th level spells you and your familiar can singlehandedly take out a CR 20 black dragon.

martyboy74
2007-03-16, 06:41 PM
You don't. Sane games are more fun.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-16, 06:43 PM
You don't. Sane games are more fun.

Usually? Yes. Hell, I prefer me my fighter types.
I just want to show them how damn good a wizard is.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-16, 06:44 PM
i wouldnt say that wizards are more powerful, they have more written material that gives them better options but no where the uber class. I hate when people say one class is underpowered, they are all balanced, a little under powered but not glaringly so

Tobrian
2007-03-16, 06:53 PM
You need at least 3rd level spells to really start dominating and at least 5th level spells to make the melee types worthless. Once you get 7th level spells you really win. And at 9th level spells you and your familiar can singlehandedly take out a CR 20 black dragon.

Of course so can any 18th level fighter, with the right equipment. *shrug*

Really, it amazed me that people seem to think wizards are all-powerful. They seem to start from the delusion that every wizards knows all spells in existance and can cast them all simultanously.

I'm not saying that an 18th level wizard isn't powerful. Time Stop certainly is a game breaking spell IMO. But EVERY 18th level character is perversely powerful when min-maxed and twinked out. Still not epic though... but how many groups routinely play 18th level characters?

A wizard wins when he uses his spells intelligently and has allies who work with him, when he can plan ahead, when he can get info about the enemy's resistances and weaknesses beforehand, and when he actually has enough time to cast buffing spells. If he is ambushed, has memo'ed the wrong selection of spells, loses his spellbook, is blinded, feebleminded or forced to cast spell from the back of a horse in a thunderstorm while being shot at, or faces an enemy with spell/elemental immunities, a mage-hunting PrC and a ring of spell turning or rod of absorption, he's screwed.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-16, 06:58 PM
i wouldnt say that wizards are more powerful, they have more written material that gives them better options but no where the uber class. I hate when people say one class is underpowered, they are all balanced, a little under powered but not glaringly so
I will say this once and it is not meant to be a flame or anything. Merely a statement of fact in line with such things as "The sun is hot".

You have no idea what you are talking about.

At level 17 or above a wizard can single handedly destroy a fairly large army without any problems or take on a dragon on his own and win. He can solo a level 50 pure fighter without a single problem.

The wizard always acts first. A rod of Quicken is used on a Disjunction making a very large portion of the fighters items worthless. Time Stop is then used in conjunction with a Rod of Maximize for 5 rounds of free time. First the wizard uses Dimensional Lock. Next he casts Cloudkill targeted on your square followed by a quickened Forcecage.

The fighter dies. He takes at least 1 con damage per round for 17 minutes or 170 rounds. HE can't get out of the Forcecage without magic items and no one can teleport him out because of the dimensional lock.

TempusCCK
2007-03-16, 07:08 PM
I happen to think that the wizard is totally overpowered at higher levels, but that's the breaks.

The best you as a fighter can do is ask for some antimagic armor and hope to God that the DM delivers.

Or, you could set up a system of lingering spell effects having a substantial effect on the wizard himself. Example: Forcecage. No save, no spell resistance, but if you as a fighter are stuck inside, and you start pushing and hammering on the cage, it's structural integrity is weakened, and the wizard who cast it, maybe now hundreds of miles away, needs to make a Concentration check, adding his caster level, to a DC of D20+ 1/2 Fighter Level + STR Mod to keep the effect up.

But then again, this is all up to your DM, being a houserule that I've found works particularly well.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-16, 07:11 PM
Of course so can any 18th level fighter, with the right equipment. *shrug*
Make up a fighter that can do it. He has to solo a Black Wrym wholly on his own and without leadership cheese or exceeding his WBL.


Really, it amazed me that people seem to think wizards are all-powerful. They seem to start from the delusion that every wizards knows all spells in existance and can cast them all simultanously.
I can get 9 spells cast in a round at level 20. And know every core spell that is worth knowing. It just requires a bit of gold to stuff one in my spellbook.


I'm not saying that an 18th level wizard isn't powerful. Time Stop certainly is a game breaking spell IMO. But EVERY 18th level character is perversely powerful when min-maxed and twinked out. Still not epic though... but how many groups routinely play 18th level characters?
Min/Maxed? Twinked? Please. I'm talking a standard level 20 wizard here. One that BWL or I could run if we felt so inclined. And they would decimate an epic melee character.

Yeah, timestop is overpowered but it is core. And this is based on the core RAW. Which is broken and it has wizards dominating every non caster at high levels.


A wizard wins when he uses his spells intelligently
Correct.


and has allies who work with him,
Not needed at all. Ever.


when he can plan ahead, when he can get info about the enemy's resistances and weaknesses beforehand, and when he actually has enough time to cast buffing spells.
None of those matter. At all. With a standard generic spell list I can make a wizard who can survive any fight (not involving deities) and win most fights. And the ones that he doesn't win he comes back the next day and wins.


If he is ambushed,
Any intelligent wizard Can't be ambushed. It is an impossibility.


has memo'ed the wrong selection of spells,
I'm talking a generic everyday list of spell here.


loses his spellbook,
Any intelligent wizard has backups and stealing a wizards spellbook requires what amounts ot DM fiat in the first place.

is blinded, feebleminded or forced to cast spell from the back of a horse in a thunderstorm while being shot at,
How was this wizard blinded, and feebleminded? You can't assume conditions that can't actually arise without DM fiat.


or faces an enemy with spell/elemental immunities,
Elemental immunities? Why woudl those matter at all? And a golem? You can disintegrate the floor out from under one and then cast wall of force on top of the hole to keep him in there.


a mage-hunting PrC and a ring of spell turning or rod of absorption, he's screwed.

Rigns of spell turning don't do much and neither do RoA's once the disjunction starts flying.

PaladinBoy
2007-03-16, 07:36 PM
I will say this once and it is not meant to be a flame or anything. Merely a statement of fact in line with such things as "The sun is hot".

You have no idea what you are talking about.

At level 17 or above a wizard can single handedly destroy a fairly large army without any problems or take on a dragon on his own and win. He can solo a level 50 pure fighter without a single problem.

The wizard always acts first. A rod of Quicken is used on a Disjunction making a very large portion of the fighters items worthless. Time Stop is then used in conjunction with a Rod of Maximize for 5 rounds of free time. First the wizard uses Dimensional Lock. Next he casts Cloudkill targeted on your square followed by a quickened Forcecage.

The fighter dies. He takes at least 1 con damage per round for 17 minutes or 170 rounds. HE can't get out of the Forcecage without magic items and no one can teleport him out because of the dimensional lock.

Keep in mind, the disjunction allows a will save, and the fighter's items get to use his will save bonus. A level 50 fighter has a base/epic will bonus of +21. That's not counting the epic magic items he could use to drive that even higher. Does this level 17 wizard have a DC high enough that that fighter even has a chance at failing, with +31 or higher?

This also doesn't count any artifacts that the fighter may have picked up, or his epic magic items, which I believe have a chance to survive even if the will save fails.

With the fighter's magic items surviving, the fighter has a pretty long list of solutions to choose from...... anything from powerful SR armor to an item that allows him to use greater dispel magic. Maybe disintegrate arrows?

Does any of this count as a problem?


I can get 9 spells cast in a round at level 20. And know every core spell that is worth knowing. It just requires a bit of gold to stuff one in my spellbook.

How?

Not saying you can't do it, just curious.


Not needed at all. Ever.

Oh? Really? I have a hard time believing that your level 17 wizard could make it through an adventure balanced for a party of 4 level 17 characters all by himself. Did you mean something else, or could he actually do that? If that is what you meant, how would he do it?

Krellen
2007-03-16, 07:46 PM
How?

Not saying you can't do it, just curious.
A wizard "can" cast 12 spells in one "round" at level 20:
1. Quickened Something.
2. Time Stop - roll a 4, for 5 "rounds".
3. Quickened Something.
4. Something.
5. Quickened Something.
6. Something.
7. Quickened Something.
8. Something.
9. Quickened Something.
10. Something.
11. Quickened Something.
12. Something.
Wizard's "round" is done.

Solo
2007-03-16, 08:18 PM
How to kill a melee character:

1. Rod of Quicken + Disjunction. (Good luck making the save, if the wizard is built properly.)
2. Timestop + Rod of Maximizing (5 rounds, although you only really need three)
3. Reverse Gravity
4. Prismatic Wall
5. Prismatic Wall
6. Anything, such as another Prismatic Wall
7. See above.
8. End Reverse Gravity, have fighter fall through 2-4 Prismatic Walls.
9. Obtain lewts and EXP.

(If you want to, you could do a whole lot more by using the Rod of Quicken Spell, but I think subjecting the fighter to more than that is overdoing it.)

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-16, 08:27 PM
Time Stop doesn't really count. A wizard can use Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability and then have both himself and the familiar each unleash a regular and a quickened spell in the first round, though.

Tippy's exaggerating with the "level 50 fighter" thing, because a level 50 character's wealth can buy him so very many items of such power, up to and including epic spells.

A level 17 wizard could take on CR 20 challenges by himself, something that just plain couldnt be said of even a level 20 fighter. If it was an entire adventure, he's use a different spell setup (more damage and summons), expend a lot more spells/encounter, dominate himself some enemies, and teleport off to rest a lot.

Facing "an enemy with spell/elemental immunities, a mage-hunting PrC and a ring of spell turning or rod of absorption, he's screwed" certainly won't make him blink twice (or leave a tip).

Sorry, Innis. Some classes--like, say, the monk--ARE underpowered. Very significantly. The fighter is one of those, once you pass the mid-levels.


Back to the issue of low levels: a level four wizard isn't ruling anything. He can, however, be very useful--spells/day are still an issue, so don't cast every round unless it's necessary. Glitterdust is your best friend, here; it can turn a tough encounter into an easy. Grease lasts four rounds and likewise makes the melee guys' job much easier. Ray of Enfeeblement is a godsend against beefy melee monsters and has no save.
Web is difficult to move through even if you make your save, at this level; Web + archery = tough encounter goes down, no sweat.
If you want to be nigh-untouchable, use Alter Self to turn into some humanoid with wings (like an Avariel) and fly; having flight at this level means you're totally safe from 90% of potential enemies.

Once you hit level 5, you can unleash the Ray of Enfeeblement + Ray of Exhaustion combo, Deep Slumber, Haste, Slow...


Edit: for those of you who want to avoid Disjunction and aren't core-only, a Chained (Greater) Dispel Magic will suppress items for 1d4 rounds. You could then use Chained Shatter to destroy them, or just kill while the items are down.
Even without chain, dispel + shatter on a critical item (Ring of Freedom of Movement, Wings of Flying, etc) can essentially ensure victory.

Cruiser1
2007-03-16, 08:47 PM
How to kill a melee character:
3. Reverse Gravity
4. Prismatic Wall
5. Prismatic Wall
8. End Reverse Gravity, have fighter fall through 2-4 Prismatic Walls.
This won't work. The Prismatic Wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticWall.htm) spell must be cast to form vertical wall. A Prismatic Sphere would work, although since the Sphere is always centered on you, it's a bit harder to set up. Note going through a Prismatic Wall or Sphere isn't certain death, if you make all 7 saving throws or spell resistance checks.

Solo
2007-03-16, 08:50 PM
The wall’s maximum proportions are 4 feet wide per caster level and 2 feet high per caster level. A prismatic wall spell cast to materialize in a space occupied by a creature is disrupted, and the spell is wasted.
Could you have several prismatic walls stacked on one another?

Cast one, then cast another above it and etc?

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-16, 08:52 PM
Nothing stops a person from falling through a prismatic wall vertically. In fact you coudl cram an arbitrarily large number of them in 1 square and have them fall through an arbitrarily large number of them.

()
\|/
/ \
||||

---------

Like that where the |'s are prismatic walls.

axraelshelm
2007-03-16, 08:57 PM
time stop+sudden maximise you have now got 4 rounds to do all you want pick up sudden empower to make it 6 rounds. Now how many spell are you going to cast?

marjan
2007-03-16, 09:02 PM
Now how many spell are you going to cast?

Don't know. Haven't got that many fingers to count.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-16, 09:02 PM
Alter self.
Now you do!

marjan
2007-03-16, 09:11 PM
Oh, right. Of the topic: Which humanoid has most fingers?

Cruiser1
2007-03-16, 09:38 PM
A wizard "can" cast 12 spells in one "round" at level 20:
1. Quickened Something.
2. Time Stop - roll a 4, for 5 "rounds".
...
11. Quickened Something.
12. Something.
Wizard's "round" is done.A Wizard can easily get off 100 spells a round before anybody else has a chance to do anything! :smallbiggrin:

Start with an Extended Maximized Time Stop. Use a Greater Maximize Rod, and the Extend Spell Feat combined with Arcane Thesis (Time Stop) so the Time Stop still fits in a 9th level spell slot. This gives you up to 10 rounds to do whatever you want, i.e. cast a spell + a quickened spell, for 20 spells total. Have your familiar (which is Time Stopped with you via the Share Spells ability) do the same, for up to another 20 spells.

You can cast Time Stop again before the first one runs out. That gives you another 40 spells. Keep this up until you run out of 9th level spell slots. If you're willing to spend money or XP beforehand, you continue this with as many scrolls of Time Stop as you can afford.

With the Leadership feat you can have a Cohort who can also cast spells and have their familiar cast spells on your turn. You can also get or craft an intelligent item that can also cast spells on your turn.

You can have another spell go off during all this if you cast Contingency earlier, with a condition such as "when I cast Time Stop, cast this". For extra cheese, if you have the Craft Contingent Spell feat, there's no limit to the number of contingent spells you can have in effect, which can all be set to go off at once!

Once you turn does end, before the next player in the initiative order gets a chance to do anything, cast Celerity to interrupt their turn, and you have another standard action to cast another spell + a quickened spell.

Jack Mann
2007-03-16, 10:01 PM
Extend doesn't work for time stop. It's been errata'd to have an effectively instantaneous duration. Otherwise, with things like divine metamagic, it could be made persistent.

Hallavast
2007-03-16, 10:16 PM
Any intelligent wizard Can't be ambushed. It is an impossibility.
Why not?


Any intelligent wizard has backups and stealing a wizards spellbook requires what amounts ot DM fiat in the first place. What do you mean? Aren't there means in dnd to releive people of their possessions? What if, for example, the party is staying at a fancy inn and are attacked while the wizard is preparing spells from his book? The wizard likely has multiple books spread out before him on a desk or something. If he has to flee in a hurry he might lose some/all of his books.


How was this wizard blinded, and feebleminded? You can't assume conditions that can't actually arise without DM fiat. Is it possible for the wizard to be targeted by a blindness or feeblemind spell from a monster or enemy caster? Or are they just immune to these things because they're wizards?



Elemental immunities? Why woudl those matter at all? And a golem? You can disintegrate the floor out from under one and then cast wall of force on top of the hole to keep him in there. Yep. But the wall will only last for a minute or two.

Wizards aren't omniscient, you know. Bad things happen to everybody. And I'm curious to see the "standard generic spell list" that you refer to (maybe in a different thread).

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-16, 10:17 PM
Yeah, but it can still be empowered. For the same net effect.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-16, 10:34 PM
Why not?
Contingency, Anticipate Teleport, Foresight, MoP, Detect Thoughts. All of these and more.


What do you mean? Aren't there means in dnd to releive people of their possessions? What if, for example, the party is staying at a fancy inn and are attacked while the wizard is preparing spells from his book? The wizard likely has multiple books spread out before him on a desk or something. If he has to flee in a hurry he might lose some/all of his books.
No high level wizard ever sleeps in an inn. Magnificent Mansion FTW. And to keep the book safe you stick it in a possum pouch, or shrink it, or keep it in a glove of storing. And you always keep a backup in a very safe place that only you know about. Combine that with Spell Mastery for Greater Teleport, Plane Shift, Timestop, and any other spells that you can't do without and your golden.



Is it possible for the wizard to be targeted by a blindness or feeblemind spell from a monster or enemy caster? Or are they just immune to these things because they're wizards?
The point is that the wizard acts and wins the battle before anyoen else ever gets a turn. And Feebleminded is a mind affecting compulsion. No high level wizard is outside his MM without Mindblank up.

If he manages to fail his save against Blindness then the wizard just uses a timestop and a dispel to get rid of it.


Yep. But the wall will only last for a minute or two.
20 Rounds. More than enough time to use transmute rock to mud and then mud to rock once its around the golem. If you get out of core then a lot more things become possible.


Wizards aren't omniscient, you know. Bad things happen to everybody. And I'm curious to see the "standard generic spell list" that you refer to (maybe in a different thread).
With the proper application of scrying spells a wizard is almost omniscient and for the few times they don't see something coming the just teleport away and come back the next day prepared. Or if you allow Arcane Genesis then they come back 1 round later prepared.

As for the spell list. What level of cheese do you want? Anything Core is allowed? No Shapechange/Polymorph? No Disjunction? Or are other sources allowed?

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-16, 10:40 PM
Incidentally, you can trap your spellbook without any feats.

Behold_the_Void
2007-03-16, 10:54 PM
The major thing to remember about Wizards, especially at lower levels, is that sometimes its touch and go. You might be REALLY useful, but you might be extraordinarily useless.

Last session, for example, my Sorcerer had to use all 4 of his spells per day on Color Spray when most of the targets needed a 15 or higher to make their save. The first two spells fizzled entirely, and I only hit one out of three targets with the third. You can talk about probability all you want but these things DO happen and they tend to make you look a lot less uber.

(Further amusing note, he managed to shoot a guy trying to swim away from the ship and drop him in one hit with his Crossbow. Again, funny how these things work out.)

Hallavast
2007-03-16, 11:10 PM
Contingency, Anticipate Teleport, Foresight, MoP, Detect Thoughts. All of these and more. Ok. Contingency isn't guaranteed to go off (and even if it does it doesn't necessarily stop the ambush). Anticipate Teleport doesn't prevent foes from ambushing you without using teleport. Detect thoughts is concentration (which means it's useless if you don't know about the ambush), and foresight doesn't last long enough (10 mins/level - exactly when are you supposed to cast it?). MoP is good for this, but the enemy still gets a surprise round. It helps to even the odds, but you can still be caught in a bad spot.



No high level wizard ever sleeps in an inn. Magnificent Mansion FTW. And to keep the book safe you stick it in a possum pouch, or shrink it, or keep it in a glove of storing. And you always keep a backup in a very safe place that only you know about. Combine that with Spell Mastery for Greater Teleport, Plane Shift, Timestop, and any other spells that you can't do without and your golden.
Really really? No high level wizard ever sleeps in an inn? This is a generalization for sure. What if you have to guard something or some location and it's hard to do so while you're holing up in your safe little magical coccoon. Let's be reasonable. Upon occasion, a wizard could be persuaded to sleep in an inn. Especially if he's courting the innkeeper's daughter or something. Use your imagination.



The point is that the wizard acts and wins the battle before anyoen else ever gets a turn. And Feebleminded is a mind affecting compulsion. No high level wizard is outside his MM without Mindblank up.
If he manages to fail his save against Blindness then the wizard just uses a timestop and a dispel to get rid of it.

There are ways around magical protections. Mind Blank can be dispelled. You'll eventually run out of timestops. I'm simply saying that these situations are possible (and they are. It's not DM fiat. It's NPCs knowing their foe and planning accordingly).



20 Rounds. More than enough time to use transmute rock to mud and then mud to rock once its around the golem. If you get out of core then a lot more things become possible.
That's pretty creative actually. Did you come up with that one?



With the proper application of scrying spells a wizard is almost omniscient and for the few times they don't see something coming the just teleport away and come back the next day prepared. Or if you allow Arcane Genesis then they come back 1 round later prepared.
Well, scrying is only usefull when you know who your foe is (or that he even exists). And you can't scry someone 24/7. If you teleport away, that means you're beaten. I don't know what Arcane Genesis is... I assume it's not core?
And can't someone likewise scry you if you simply teleport away? This has happened to me before. My DM got angry that I teleported away too often so he had some clerics scry me and follow me. I got captured.


As for the spell list. What level of cheese do you want? Anything Core is allowed? No Shapechange/Polymorph? No Disjunction? Or are other sources allowed?
Hmm. Well let's keep it core for now. Don't use any spells that you would not normally use if you were to play an honest character (like a lot of DMs don't allow shapechange/polymorph or gate). Whatever you think is fair. Let's see if BWL agrees with your list. Keep in mind that you have no idea what you will face at the start of the day (though you can prepare all the core divinations you want if you think they'll help).

Jerthanis
2007-03-16, 11:27 PM
I'd say in before flame war but...

In any case, if you're playing from level 4 to level 10 or so, I don't think you'll ever see a significant domination by the spellcasters to the extent you may see on the boards. Through level 8ish you're still counting on front liners to keep you alive for the most part, as your day-long defense capabilities are still fairly limited, and your immediate defenses aren't impenetrable. The fighters will also still be doing the vast majority of the HP damage. If they're the type of people to think that Fighty types are better than controller types, they will consider their role of finishing off the monsters you've disabled while under the effects of your spell that doubles their effectiveness to be their own strength, rather than attributing the entire victory to you. You're starting to get into some absolutely fantastic spells by 10th, but unless you really play from 10th to 20th, I doubt it'll convince them of anything.

I'm not saying Wizards aren't some of the best even from those mid levels, I'm saying that I've played with people who value front liners absurdly much for the vast majority of my time playing D&D, and they aren't convinced with "but I put that monster to sleep!" or "But I figured out where the evil baron was hiding the princess with divinations" or "You know, my buff spells carried that fight..." they just remember they were the one who hacked their way through and they nod saying, "You did your part, but without the sleep spell I might have taken a bit more damage, without the divination we may have had to bluff/intimidate the information out of NPCs, and without the buff it would have taken a few more swings, but I carried the day here." whether it is true or not. It takes something incredible to change peoples' minds about these things, and the scale of paradigm shift requires an event the scale of which we're mentioning here... soloing dragons and so on... and that sort of thing is just not as possible under 10th.

So don't bother going into this with the mindset of wanting to "win" D&D to prove a point or anything, just go in to play as effective a wizard as you can, and play for the fun of it. Don't suffer them talking bad about your character, and be sure to remind them how much they are benefiting from your buffs/debuffs. Don't do it in the interest of proving how much better wizards are, because they won't thank you for the lesson. Remind them how important you are because you want to have fun, and maybe they'll realize how much fun an effective wizard can be and to have in a party.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-16, 11:36 PM
Ok. Contingency isn't guaranteed to go off (and even if it does it doesn't necessarily stop the ambush).
Word your contingencies better then.


Anticipate Teleport doesn't prevent foes from ambushing you without using teleport.
How exactly are they gettign within ambush range then? You think that a level 20 wizard just walks down the street? Or walks into buildings without knowing whats inside?


Detect thoughts is concentration (which means it's useless if you don't know about the ambush),
Not that useless. If someone is going to ambush you at an exchange or something you come in invisible or insubstantial and DT on him to find out if he is or not.


and foresight doesn't last long enough (10 mins/level - exactly when are you supposed to cast it?).
Extend it and it lasts 20 minutes per level. At level 20 that is 400 minutes or a little over 6 hours and 40 minutes. 1 casting will last you most of the time you are out of your MM. And 2 will cover you for over 13 hours.


or MoP is good for this, but the enemy still gets a surprise round. It helps to even the odds, but you can still be caught in a bad spot.
If PHB is allowed you go Clericty or Greater Clericty. And the enemy doesn't' get a surprise round. Remember the contingency. "If Attacked DD me to the safest open spot in range, preferably straight up if outdoors".



Really really? No high level wizard ever sleeps in an inn? This is a generalization for sure. What if you have to guard something or some location and it's hard to do so while you're holing up in your safe little magical coccoon. Let's be reasonable. Upon occasion, a wizard could be persuaded to sleep in an inn. Especially if he's courting the innkeeper's daughter or something. Use your imagination.
Sure he may rent a room for teh night, taht doesn't mean he will actually be in the room. MM can be cast in the room and everything is fine.

As for guarding something, it depends on what you are guarding and you shouldn't sleep on guard duty in the first place.



There are ways around magical protections. Mind Blank can be dispelled.
Onyl by a caster of almost the same level and not easily. And then to feeblemind a wizard requires him to fail a will save. Remember the MoP which gives a +20 bonus on the save?


You'll eventually run out of timestops.
"Oh looks like I'm down to my last timestop"*Grater Teleport to the top of everest or the like, cast MM, enter MM*"Time to rest up"


I'm simply saying that these situations are possible (and they are. It's not DM fiat. It's NPCs knowing their foe and planning accordingly).
But only an equally powerful caster stands even a chance of affecting the wizard. The point of this thread is that melee characters pail in comparison to caster types and wizards in particular. You have to find and ambush and kill/disable the wizard without magic. Or if you use magic then it has to be in a situation where a melee character was the deciding factor.


That's pretty creative actually. Did you come up with that one?
Numerous people have used it or invented it for themselves. Solid fog and ghost sound is also great for makeing the golem run around in circles for 20 minutes or so.



Well, scrying is only usefull when you know who your foe is (or that he even exists). And you can't scry someone 24/7. If you teleport away, that means you're beaten. I don't know what Arcane Genesis is... I assume it's not core?
Contact Other Planes "Is anyone planning to ambush me tomorrow?" "Will I be fighting X type of creature tomorrow?"

Just ask Boccob. Since you are one of the worlds most powerful casters your being attacked or killed falls within his portfolio sense and he knows what is going to happen to you a good 16+ weeks in advance.



And can't someone likewise scry you if you simply teleport away? This has happened to me before. My DM got angry that I teleported away too often so he had some clerics scry me and follow me. I got captured.
Mindblank or teleport into a previously set up Private Sanctum that has been made permanent. The thing even blocks deities from scrying on you.


Hmm. Well let's keep it core for now. Don't use any spells that you would not normally use if you were to play an honest character (like a lot of DMs don't allow shapechange/polymorph or gate). Whatever you think is fair. Let's see if BWL agrees with your list. Keep in mind that you have no idea what you will face at the start of the day (though you can prepare all the core divinations you want if you think they'll help).

Divinations are used the day before. To scry on tomorrow. And I allow Shapechange, Gate, Disjunction, etc. in my games. So an honest RAW wizard at level 20 would have access to all of them. Can we assume a base Int of 18?

crazedloon
2007-03-16, 11:46 PM
Guys you don't need to start another wiz vs other thread every character can perform well and better then any other class given the right situation wizs just are more flexable as far as the right situation (And then there is a list going down from there often followed by cleric/druid and then more often ending with ftr)

So none of this.

As far as the topic, if you ask me don’t prove it to them a group without cheesy wizards and power gamers is a more fun one in my opinion.

The_Werebear
2007-03-16, 11:53 PM
On the original topic...

Just challenge your players to a duel. Make a level 20 wizard, have them all make level 20 fighters. Then own them. If you start to lose, port out and come back tomorrow to pick them off on your terms.

Just make it clear that they can't kill you if you do it right.

Or, just let them be nonbelievers. They are entitled to their opinions, correct or incorrect.

Avenger337
2007-03-17, 12:19 AM
Elemental immunities? Why woudl those matter at all? And a golem? You can disintegrate the floor out from under one and then cast wall of force on top of the hole to keep him in there.

Wall of Force is a vertical wall only. Not going to keep many golems in a hole.

Beleriphon
2007-03-17, 12:52 AM
How exactly are they gettign within ambush range then? You think that a level 20 wizard just walks down the street? Or walks into buildings without knowing whats inside?


I do that all the time, hell people who shouldn't do that do it all the time. A 20th level wizard is horrendously powerful, but they are only human (well, maybe demihuman). Mechanically you can't beat a wizard, but from a functional perspective in a game its entirely possible to do so through trickery.

okpokalypse
2007-03-17, 12:52 AM
Keep in mind, the disjunction allows a will save, and the fighter's items get to use his will save bonus. A level 50 fighter has a base/epic will bonus of +21. That's not counting the epic magic items he could use to drive that even higher. Does this level 17 wizard have a DC high enough that that fighter even has a chance at failing, with +31 or higher?

By L17, A good Wizard should have an Int of near or over 40, plus the ability/feats to add to Spell DC. DC 35 isn't out of the question at all, and that's already a 15% failure chance for the presented L50 Epic Fighter. If you're going against the likes of a FateSpinner (PrC), your failure chance is 65% on that first shot.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-17, 12:56 AM
40? A level 20 wizard winds up with 18 (base) + 2 (grey elf) + 5 (levels) + 5 (tome) + 6 (item) = 36 INT at most.
The Fatespinner 5 ability can't be used on creatures with more HD than you.

The fighter also has wisdom, a WIS-boosting item, a cloak of resistance +10 to +15...

Jacob Orlove
2007-03-17, 01:19 AM
If he's going to fight a level 50 fighter, we might as well let the Wizard PaO himself into a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon, which has a base Int of 32. He can also chain-Gate Titans, Shapechange into something even more broken, and just generally break the game in half.

But a L50's WBL can let you do much, much crazier stuff. An item of +30 UMD and some scrolls can duplicate whatever the L20 Wizard does, and that's not even getting into Epic items and spells.

okpokalypse
2007-03-17, 01:22 AM
I don't know what Arcane Genesis is... I assume it's not core?

Genesis is the spell that keeps high-level caster haters up at night failing to find a way to best them. It's allows on to make a permanent demi-plane, and they can set all the environmental factors themselves. Per the DMG, these environmental factors include the temporal state of the plane. IE. It can move much faster. So much faster that...

Said PC Wizard can Plane Shift to his Demi-Plane and Re-Appear the Next Combat Round on the Prime Material, having had 10 hours of rest & preparation. And while the Arcane Version of the spell is not in the Core Books, it is in the SRD, and the Psionic Version is loosely considered Core.

Now, I can make a pretty bad-ass Melee PC. I'm talking L20 (Fighter / Soldier of Light) with 400+ HP, a 40+ Fort & Will Save, a 40+ AC, a 10' Reach, a +37 Base UMD Check and does > 50 Damage per attack w/ an Attack Bonus that starts at over +40 w/ 5 Attacks. All easily within BWL guidelines. Seriously Brutal.

And he doesn't stand a chance. Not much anyway. Sure, if the Wizard was immensely over-confident and/or dumb, he might try a few save-or-dies to give me enough time to read off a scroll of Giant Size and Dim Door to get next to him. Maybe I'm lucky and win Init and read a Time Stop scroll to buy myself time to Buff and Dim Door over to him - and then I delay out of the Time Stop to cast a Dimensional Anchor on him (and I get lucky that it overcomes any SR he may have). I'd still have to hope that whatever I did didn't trigger a Contingency he's got in place. I'd also have to hope that he doesn't have means to get out of my attack range, or at the very least, that one shot kills him if he tries to. Cause if he moves out, Time Stops, Target Dispels the Dimensional Anchor Effect and 'Ports out, I'm done. He's just going to come back and waste me.

Or he could just do any of the other things mentioned earlier in this thread.

And the most ironic part, is that the only melee build I've mde that even comes close to being competitive with a Wizard is one that has Charisma as a Primary Stat to get Enormous Saves & High UMD. To what end? To Emulate the Wizard of course!

okpokalypse
2007-03-17, 01:31 AM
40? A level 20 wizard winds up with 18 (base) + 2 (grey elf) + 5 (levels) + 5 (tome) + 6 (item) = 36 INT at most.
The Fatespinner 5 ability can't be used on creatures with more HD than you.

The fighter also has wisdom, a WIS-boosting item, a cloak of resistance +10 to +15...

You're forgetting other bonus types. By L17, a Wizard's either made or commissioned +Int items of other Bonus Types. Sacred, Luck, Etc..

And the Fighter's items were discussed as being Disjoined. Not by me - buy a previous poster. I was following in that vein, and using the quoted base save modifier the poster listed.

As for the FateSpinner - Seal Fate is HD restricted, but he can still apply a +5 to the DC, as well as Force Opponent Rerolls.

crazedloon
2007-03-17, 01:33 AM
If you are going to derail a thread at least quote up to date rules (last time I checked and that wasn't to long ago) all the Genesis effects have been updated so that you can not increase the flow of time. It is now at whatever rate os spead the material plane is at.

now stop derailing a thread :smallwink:

Behold_the_Void
2007-03-17, 01:34 AM
I also gotta jump in and say that you can't get those commissioned Int+ items without specific DM fiat as by RAW they don't exist. And Shapechange is still limited by your HD, which a 20th level mage does not fulfill the requirements for a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon. So that doesn't work either.

Titan Gate Chain does work, but I think something like that would get called by any sane DM (and, consequently, D&D character tournament judges) quite fast.

Jacob Orlove
2007-03-17, 01:42 AM
I didn't say Shapechange into a Great Wyrm, because Shapechange doesn't affect your Int score. I said Polymorph Any Object, which is in some ways the *more* broken spell. Shapechange can turn you into a Choker or something.

Behold_the_Void
2007-03-17, 01:49 AM
Polymorph any Object specifies that it functions like Polymorph except where noted, and they say nothing about it not being limited by HD, which means it still is. Great Wyrm Polymorph simply doesn't work pre-epic.

okpokalypse
2007-03-17, 01:56 AM
If you are going to derail a thread at least quote up to date rules (last time I checked and that wasn't to long ago) all the Genesis effects have been updated so that you can not increase the flow of time. It is now at whatever rate os spead the material plane is at.

It's only been updated for Psionics.

And even in a situation where a DM rules that the Psionic update affects all versions of the Genesis spell, there's still a multitude of ways to generate temporal effects like this with various caster types. It also states in the DMG that such planes exist already. One plane in particular in the Abyss has a backward time flow. How's that for awesome-sauce.


now stop derailing a thread :smallwink:

Well, in looking at the OPs power-levels of ECL 4 - 10, Wizard's aren't a whole lot better... yet. They just really start coming into their own at L9.

From L1 to L6, Melee tends to rule.

From L7 to L10, Clerics power-up fast. Either they make melee classes obsolete (melee builds) or they make melee classes 3 to 5 levels better (buff builds). Wizards are just starting to show their potential.

From L11 to L16, Wizards and Psions blow up. Clerics and Druids are just starting to peak. The only Melee types worth anything anymore are Psychic Warriors or EXTREMELY optimized Melee's - often with a focus on UMD and/or Massive Damage. Some stealth builds are still very useful.

After L17, Wizards, Psions, Druids and Clerics tend to dominate. Psychic Warriors are generally the most overall effective Melee type at this point. Skill-junkies have usually outlived their usefulness if they can't manage to do extreme damage when needed.

* It's worth mentioning that as good as Druids and Clerics are, Wizards and Psions tend to be a head and shoulders better because of certain unique features their spell-lists provide. They just have a greater ability to manipulate mechanics of the game.

okpokalypse
2007-03-17, 02:02 AM
I also gotta jump in and say that you can't get those commissioned Int+ items without specific DM fiat as by RAW they don't exist.

That's both yes and no.

You're right that you can't get em commissioned without the DM making it accessible in the game, but you CAN take a feat like "Ancestral Relic" which allows you to designate the bonuses using the Magic Item Creation rules for sacrifice cost required.

Cruiser1
2007-03-17, 02:02 AM
I also gotta jump in and say that you can't get those commissioned Int+ items without specific DM fiat as by RAW they don't exist.


Titan Gate Chain does work, but I think something like that would get called by any sane DM (and, consequently, D&D character tournament judges) quite fast.
Indeed, according to the SRD all magic items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) that grant ability bonuses are "enhancement" bonuses (which don't stack with each other). The table in the above link indicates prices for special bonuses such as "sacred", "luck", or "insight" to AC or saving throws, but there's nothing for ability bonuses other than the standard "enhancement".

Titan Gate Chain doesn't work for long, because there's no guarantee that the Titan that's called hasn't already cast Gate that day. Also, Gating a creature as powerful as a Titan is very dangerous. Tomorrow that Titan who was forced away from his home while eating dinner will likely Gate you and force you to fight a Balor or something for his amusement.

okpokalypse
2007-03-17, 02:29 AM
Indeed, according to the SRD all magic items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) that grant ability bonuses are "enhancement" bonuses (which don't stack with each other). The table in the above link indicates prices for special bonuses such as "sacred", "luck", or "insight" to AC or saving throws, but there's nothing for ability bonuses other than the standard "enhancement".

Then I'd assume it would use the "Use Activated or Continuous" effect - since these bonuses exist via spells as well. One example off the top of my head is Adrenaline Boost (Psionic). At CL 13 It gives +6 Str (Insight) & +6 Dex (Insight). The Formula for that would be: SL 1 * CL 13 * 2,000 = 26,000 * 4 (Duration Mod) = 104,000 gp.

Slap on an alignment restriction (valid per the CORE / SRD Material) and reduce it another 30% to 72,800.

Not bad, considering stacking two +6 Stat Enhancement Bonuses on one item normally comes to 36,000 + 54,000 (* 1.5 for Multiple Diff Effects) = 90,000 gp.

Now is this screwed up? Hells yes it is. But it's supported by the material at hand. Isn't it just easier to acknowledge that alternate +Stat bonuses are available at the same multiplier, such as the Save Bonus (other) - being they both have the same enhancement cost?

The problem is that those SRD Magic Item creation rules were made before alternate Stat Bonus types existed in 3.0 - and they never got adequately updated for the 3.5 revision. Unless one would be willing to allow non-enhancement +Stat effects to work as a Continuous Effect Spell item (very inbalanced), it makes much more sense to incorporate a higher multiplier for other bonus types present in the game along the lines with what's already been drawn out. My gaming group does this, as do both the shops I (very occasionally) play at.

marjan
2007-03-17, 02:53 AM
Then I'd assume it would use the "Use Activated or Continuous" effect - since these bonuses exist via spells as well. One example off the top of my head is Adrenaline Boost (Psionic). At CL 13 It gives +6 Str (Insight) & +6 Dex (Insight). The Formula for that would be: SL 1 * CL 13 * 2,000 = 26,000 * 4 (Duration Mod) = 104,000 gp.

Slap on an alignment restriction (valid per the CORE / SRD Material) and reduce it another 30% to 72,800.

Not bad, considering stacking two +6 Stat Enhancement Bonuses on one item normally comes to 36,000 + 54,000 (* 1.5 for Multiple Diff Effects) = 90,000 gp.

Now is this screwed up? Hells yes it is. But it's supported by the material at hand. Isn't it just easier to acknowledge that alternate +Stat bonuses are available at the same multiplier, such as the Save Bonus (other) - being they both have the same enhancement cost?

For continous items those values on the tables are just guidelines (so the DMG says). And any item that doesn't exist in any of the book has to be aproved by DM.

Leush
2007-03-17, 04:25 AM
Now, I can make a pretty bad-ass Melee PC. I'm talking L20 (Fighter / Soldier of Light) with 400+ HP, a 40+ Fort & Will Save, a 40+ AC, a 10' Reach, a +37 Base UMD Check and does > 50 Damage per attack w/ an Attack Bonus that starts at over +40 w/ 5 Attacks. All easily within BWL guidelines. Seriously Brutal.

How do you not stand a chance? You have easily enough UMD to do recreate all the brokenness of a high level caster. Although to be fair, I have yet to encounter it in a high level game. Perhaps I should play more high level games...

Saph
2007-03-17, 06:32 AM
So, I come to veterans of the game and ask--
How do I make my wizard so full of epic win, that he outshines the entire damn party?
Most of our games are ECL 4, so I'll start there. From there, where do I take it?

I've just recently been playing a bunch of arcane spellcasting characters around level 4, so this is something I know a bit about. However:

As several people have said, you don't do 'epic win' with a wizard at level 4. What you can do is use teamwork and co-operate with the rest of your party to make your party as a whole much, much more powerful.

You use debuff spells like Glitterdust, Grease, Colour Spray, and Sleep to weaken the monsters and make them lose their Dex penalty (meaning rogues can sneak attack them). If you blind a monster with Glitterdust while the melee types are up next to it, it should win the battle. The monster flails around ineffectively, the melee types hit it and kill it. Battle over. If things get dangerous, use Alter Self to take a defensive form like troglodyte or avariel.

Once you hit level 5, it becomes easier. Just learn Haste and Slow and cast them in every battle. The melee characters will be attacking twice as often while the monsters can only take partial actions. Monsters lose.

But here's the thing: All these tactics are about TEAMWORK. They aren't about 'winning D&D'. The party works together, and you support them. That's how D&D is supposed to work, but it's not quite what you're asking for. Which brings us to:


I think it's time to win D&D and teach them otherwise.

Bad plan. Think about it. What are you trying to accomplish?

'Winning D&D' usually means 'coming up with something so broken it spoils the game for everyone else'. Doesn't sound particularly good.

Or maybe you want to play a wizard so well that it convinces everyone else in your party to play one too, so they can be as overpowered as your character is or even more? Yeah, that'll lead to a great game. An entire party of players all trying to pull the kind of game-breaking stuff that Tippy keeps fantasising about and trying to convince the GM to allow this Pun-pun build they found on the CharOp boards because it really is balanced, honestly.

Just play a character and have fun. If everyone else doesn't play wizards, great! Take the arcane caster slot yourself and enjoy it (it's much more fun when no-one else in the party is trying to fill your role). Don't try and prove anything about power. Why should you care? You're playing D&D to have fun, aren't you? So why does it matter which class is more powerful at the higher levels that you're not playing at anyway?

- Saph

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-17, 08:59 AM
Bad plan. Think about it. What are you trying to accomplish?

Like I said, showing instead of telling them. I'm not even going to go to cheese, or min-maxing. I'm going to make a well-designed-but-not-ridiculously-optimized wizard.
I won't be going out of my way to outshine them. EDIT: Even when I say I will in the OP. Whoops.
I won't be gloating every time I do anything. I'm going to persuade them to my point of view using a very concrete example.

Variable Arcana
2007-03-17, 10:05 AM
Emperor Tippy-

In the level 15-20 range, wizards are indeed the most powerful class.

However, they aren't even remotely as powerful as you think.


Contact Other Planes "Is anyone planning to ambush me tomorrow?" "Will I be fighting X type of creature tomorrow?"

Just ask Boccob. Since you are one of the worlds most powerful casters your being attacked or killed falls within his portfolio sense and he knows what is going to happen to you a good 16+ weeks in advance.
Good grief. You think that direct intervention by a greater god is *more* likely for a level 20 wizard than for, say, a level 20 cleric or paladin??

For that matter... not one of the spells you described requires a wizard to "always go first" -- they just prevent surprise. And that 20th-level fighter build can do a massive amount of damage if he wins initiative and moves into range with his anti-magic shield.

An assassin or rogue-type whose weapon is coated with a well-chosen and enormously expensive poison has a reasonable chance of taking him out as well, again if he wins initiative (and how likely is it that a 20th level wizard will be maxing dex to the level that a 20th level rogue will??)

Lastly... a Magnificent Mansion is very useful -- but it's hardly the infinitely invunerable fortress of solitude. The entrance can be scried for and dispelled -- popping your wizard from sound asleep into the middle of an encounter, after the duration of his MoP and Foresight have passed...

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-17, 10:18 AM
Emperor Tippy-

In the level 15-20 range, wizards are indeed the most powerful class.

However, they aren't even remotely as powerful as you think.


Good grief. You think that direct intervention by a greater god is *more* likely for a level 20 wizard than for, say, a level 20 cleric or paladin??

For that matter... not one of the spells you described requires a wizard to "always go first" -- they just prevent surprise. And that 20th-level fighter build can do a massive amount of damage if he wins initiative and moves into range with his anti-magic shield.

An assassin or rogue-type whose weapon is coated with a well-chosen and enormously expensive poison has a reasonable chance of taking him out as well, again if he wins initiative (and how likely is it that a 20th level wizard will be maxing dex to the level that a 20th level rogue will??)

Lastly... a Magnificent Mansion is very useful -- but it's hardly the infinitely invunerable fortress of solitude. The entrance can be scried for and dispelled -- popping your wizard from sound asleep into the middle of an encounter, after the duration of his MoP and Foresight have passed...
The problem with that is that the assassin will have to win initiative. There are multiple ways a wizard can, and will, circumvent that.

Arbitrarity
2007-03-17, 10:43 AM
Why yes. Yes the wizard does.

He is never surprised, unless he is rudely awakened (more on that in a sec), and he can *always* make the intellignence checks. +14 intellignece modifier? (see age categories)

"Outer Plane, greater deity DC 16/5 weeks"
"Outer Plane, intermediate deity DC 14/4 weeks"

So, I have 73% odds of getting good data. It's a fifth level spell slot. Avoiding drain, I can theroetically ask the same question 10 times. It says nothing about getting the same answer, etc. Now, what's about 4^10? Oh yes. So, I have about 1 in a million chance of getting a false answer.

Now, scried for? So... once again, the wizard can be defeated by anothere wizard. Also


You can see and hear some creature

Not a building. Oh, and look!


You immediately become aware of any attempt to observe you by means of a divination (scrying) spell or effect. The spell’s area radiates from you and moves as you move. You know the location of every magical sensor within the spell’s area.

If the scrying attempt originates within the area, you also know its location; otherwise, you and the scrier immediately make opposed caster level checks (1d20 + caster level). If you at least match the scrier’s result, you get a visual image of the scrier and an accurate sense of his or her direction and distance from you.


This spell ensures privacy. Anyone looking into the area from outside sees only a dark, foggy mass. Darkvision cannot penetrate it. No sounds, no matter how loud, can escape the area, so nobody can eavesdrop from outside. Those inside can see out normally.

Divination (scrying) spells cannot perceive anything within the area, and those within are immune to detect thoughts. The ward prevents speech between those inside and those outside (because it blocks sound), but it does not prevent other communication, such as a sending or message spell, or telepathic communication, such as that between a wizard and her familiar.

The spell does not prevent creatures or objects from moving into and out of the area.

Mage’s private sanctum can be made permanent with a permanency spell.


Nice try there. So where am I?

Winning initiative? Enormously expensive poison? Contingency, MoP. You attack, you miss, I bounce way up into the air, and nuke you into small pieces, with fly and/or featherfall.

For that matter, I'm not even walking, I'm on a Phanton Steed.

Anti-magic shield? You mean spell resistance? Oh look! Max pre epic is 19!

Look at the wizard fail his CL checks at level 20 against that!

Massive damage? Fear the fighter attempting to full attack from ground level!

akira72703
2007-03-17, 10:50 AM
With ECL 4 your going to have to focus your spellcasting. By this I mean your going to have to pick and choose when you use your spells. (Not every fight will need a spell cast in them) but when you do cast a spell it should be to you and your groups maximum advantage. Spell combinations and really knowing what your spells can do are going to be to your advantage.
I have played a wizard at these levels for years and in the groups I have played with the other players think that I do more than anyone in combat even when I do nothing. They know that when I step in, the tide of battle is about to change.
As an example my group and I were in a tunnel intersection and goblins were charging from 2 of the three 10 foot x 10 foot intersections. The fighter and the rogue were set to defend both tunnels when I said, I have this side you guys hold the other one. Baffled they agreed. I had 1 round before the goblins (8) on my side would be on me charging..... I cast grease on the ground just inside my tunnel entrance and then prepared a burning hands spell for my next round action. As they ran through the grease and fell, I lit them on fire effectively killing most of them and creating a barrier for the other three (burning companions). This set up maximized the two spells i cast: Grease versus charging opponents severly hampered their reflex save so all of them had a better than normal chance of failing. the hall way was exactly as wide as the dimensions of the grease spell. And when they fell and were hit by burning hands that severly hampered their reflex save so none made it.
The point of all of this is know your spells and more importantly know when to cast them for best advantage.

Sutremaine
2007-03-17, 11:29 AM
Remember the contingency. "If Attacked DD me to the safest open spot in range, preferably straight up if outdoors".
Who or what decides what constitutes a safe spot?

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-17, 11:30 AM
Emperor Tippy-

In the level 15-20 range, wizards are indeed the most powerful class.

However, they aren't even remotely as powerful as you think.
Yes, yes they are. Want to watch me solo a wrym black dragon with core only at level 20?


Good grief. You think that direct intervention by a greater god is *more* likely for a level 20 wizard than for, say, a level 20 cleric or paladin??
I use CoP. Boccob then tells me what I want to know. It doesn't require any non RAW deity help. Clerics and Paladins are free to talk to their deities but that will have no affect on me.


For that matter... not one of the spells you described requires a wizard to "always go first" -- they just prevent surprise. And that 20th-level fighter build can do a massive amount of damage if he wins initiative and moves into range with his anti-magic shield.
The wizard will win initiative. MoP arguably gives +20 to the check. If PHB2 is in play then clercity/greater clercity make initiative useless.


An assassin or rogue-type whose weapon is coated with a well-chosen and enormously expensive poison has a reasonable chance of taking him out as well, again if he wins initiative (and how likely is it that a 20th level wizard will be maxing dex to the level that a 20th level rogue will??)
Um, most wizards have a very high dex. And you woudl have to avoid my contingency as well. And then you woudl have to drain all my Dex in that 1 hit before I get to act. No poison can do that. MoP could also give me a +20 to the save meaning I won't fail it. So even if you poison me I just ignore it and go quicken disjunction, timestop, drink potion of neutralize poison, dimensional lock, quickened cloudkill, forcecage.


Lastly... a Magnificent Mansion is very useful -- but it's hardly the infinitely invunerable fortress of solitude. The entrance can be scried for and dispelled -- popping your wizard from sound asleep into the middle of an encounter, after the duration of his MoP and Foresight have passed...
Scrying couldn't be done by a melee character though. And even a caster would be very hard pressed to do it. You could attempt to scry on my wizard but find me a scrying spell that allows you to scry for a MM entrance? And to scry on me it has to have interplanar range.


I do that all the time, hell people who shouldn't do that do it all the time. A 20th level wizard is horrendously powerful, but they are only human (well, maybe demihuman). Mechanically you can't beat a wizard, but from a functional perspective in a game its entirely possible to do so through trickery.

Wizards redefine paranoid. Especially when they aren't with a group. Hell I've had some who travel around in Telekentic Spheres just to be extra safe. One even got a ring of continuous TK sphere and was never outside of it when out of his MM.

Variable Arcana
2007-03-17, 11:49 AM
Arbitrary...

Re: Contact Other Plane...
Which yes-no question will you be getting your million-to-one-chance-of-being-right answer to every day?

How will you use it to gain perfect knowledge of all future events?

Re: "scrying" vs "Casting Scrying"

My assertion is: Nothing in the description of Mage's Magnificent Mansion protects the location of the entrance with anything more than invisibility. It can be found. (via magic, direct or indirect, via good scouting work...) It can be dispelled.

Yes, a powerful paranoid wizard who only sleeps in MMMs is likely to take further precautions. For any set of precautions, there is a way to defeat them. Even in D&D there is no perfect defense.

Re: Anti-magic shield
No I don't mean spell resistance. Why on earth would you think I did?

I'm talking about the fighter's magic shield which produces an Anti-magic Field once per day -- a more than reasonable magic item for a 20th level character to have -- and one that is rather useful when fighting a wizard.

Re: the other two quotes... Wow. You can cut and paste -- seriously... at least name the spells and sketch out how you think their existence advances your argument.


Winning initiative? Enormously expensive poison? Contingency, MoP. You attack, you miss, I bounce way up into the air, and nuke you into small pieces, with fly and/or featherfall.
Yes. This is indeed how the games of cops and robbers we all played when we were children always ended. "I shot you!" "No you didn't! You missed!"

*sarcasm alert* It's a shame we don't have a set of rules to use to adjudicate when people hit and when they miss *end sarcasm*

Can you perhaps explain in coherent sentences why you believe that a 20th level fighter will necessarily miss your wizard?

For example, MoP grants you a big bonus to your AC for one attack (though the 50th level fighter initially postulated would laugh at the bonus, the more reasonable 20th level one would likely miss), and is then used up. (Of course... if the fighter has a cohort, or Boccob forbid, it's two fifteenth level fighters instead of one twentieth...)

And then explain how you "bounce way up in the air" despite being inside an anti-magic field -- the one the fighter's shield can create once per day...

Yes... Wizards are incredibly powerful -- by far the most powerful class at upper levels. But they are nothing like unbeatable. In 20th level PC-v-PC combat, whichever character initiates the battle should usually win outright if they win initiative as well. The things 20th level PCs can do are just too varied and powerful for it to be otherwise.

You or I could come up with a spell that would protect a 20th level wizard from any given attack -- but not a combination of spells he could cast every day that would protect him from every possible attack.

okpokalypse
2007-03-17, 11:57 AM
How do you not stand a chance? You have easily enough UMD to do recreate all the brokenness of a high level caster. Although to be fair, I have yet to encounter it in a high level game. Perhaps I should play more high level games...

Meta-Magic. A Wizard's ability to enhance their effects with Meta-Magic, or use spells as swift / immediate actions trumps UMD by a long shot. Even if you're reading a Celerity Scroll, it still takes a standard action to spell complete it - so you lose the benefit of creating extra time.

Same thing with a Magic Duel between a caster and a UMD guy. A smart Wizard / Psion is getting off at least two actions per round. Not so with spell-completion. It's UMD's shortcoming.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-17, 12:18 PM
Arbitrary...

Re: Contact Other Plane...
Which yes-no question will you be getting your million-to-one-chance-of-being-right answer to every day?

How will you use it to gain perfect knowledge of all future events?
Will anyone attempt to me ambush me tomorrow?

Will I fight any wizards of level 15+ tomorrow?

With those 2 questions a wizard can stop almost everything that could kill them.


Re: "scrying" vs "Casting Scrying"

My assertion is: Nothing in the description of Mage's Magnificent Mansion protects the location of the entrance with anything more than invisibility. It can be found. (via magic, direct or indirect, via good scouting work...) It can be dispelled.
One day I shapechange into a white dragon and fly up to the top of a very tall mountain. Now I use a disintegrate to make a flat level cleared area. Now I cast Mage's Private Sanctum followed by making it permanent.

Whenever I go to use MM I first teleport inside the Private Sanctum and then cast MM. Now tell me hwo exactly you will find my location?


Yes, a powerful paranoid wizard who only sleeps in MMMs is likely to take further precautions. For any set of precautions, there is a way to defeat them. Even in D&D there is no perfect defense.
Sigh. The point is that no melee character can get through those defenses. Another caster stands a chance. A fighter? No. He onyl stands a chance if he uses magic. And lots of magic.


Re: Anti-magic shield
No I don't mean spell resistance. Why on earth would you think I did?

I'm talking about the fighter's magic shield which produces an Anti-magic Field once per day -- a more than reasonable magic item for a 20th level character to have -- and one that is rather useful when fighting a wizard.
First off that is a custom magic item. If you want to allow custom magic items the wizard will win. He can have twice as many as you.

And second, you have to get in range and stop the wizard from just using a move action to get out of the AMF and then use a quickened timestop.

And if you activate it while out of range the wizard puts a TK sphere around you and moves you 200 feet up so you take 20d6 falling damage.


Re: the other two quotes... Wow. You can cut and paste -- seriously... at least name the spells and sketch out how you think their existence advances your argument.

What quotes? It doesn't take you very long to quote my post in here and it reduces the chance that I will mistake what you are talking about.


Yes. This is indeed how the games of cops and robbers we all played when we were children always ended. "I shot you!" "No you didn't! You missed!"

*sarcasm alert* It's a shame we don't have a set of rules to use to adjudicate when people hit and when they miss *end sarcasm*
We do have rules. But for them to apply the fighter has to get within attack range of the wizard.


Can you perhaps explain in coherent sentences why you believe that a 20th level fighter will necessarily miss your wizard?
As soon as you go to attack the wizard his contingency goes off and he is now about 1200 feet up in the air. He uses feather fall to slow his descent and blasts you the whole way down. How exactly does the fighter get to attack?


For example, MoP grants you a big bonus to your AC for one attack (though the 50th level fighter initially postulated would laugh at the bonus, the more reasonable 20th level one would likely miss), and is then used up. (Of course... if the fighter has a cohort, or Boccob forbid, it's two fifteenth level fighters instead of one twentieth...)
You use MoP to grant +20 to initiative. And remember, the problem is not that the fighter can't attack and hit but that he can't get in range to attack.

As for 2 15th level fighters it depends on their distance from each other. But even assuming that they are pretty far apart you can still do the Forcecage trick to each of them. Or just shapechange into an adult red dragon.


And then explain how you "bounce way up in the air" despite being inside an anti-magic field -- the one the fighter's shield can create once per day...
How did you get the wizard inside your field?


Yes... Wizards are incredibly powerful -- by far the most powerful class at upper levels. But they are nothing like unbeatable. In 20th level PC-v-PC combat, whichever character initiates the battle should usually win outright if they win initiative as well. The things 20th level PCs can do are just too varied and powerful for it to be otherwise.
The wizard always goes first though.


You or I could come up with a spell that would protect a 20th level wizard from any given attack -- but not a combination of spells he could cast every day that would protect him from every possible attack.
Yeah. Contingency, foresight, MoP, and Timestop protect a wizard from almost all attacks.

Morty
2007-03-17, 12:22 PM
Just one simple question, Emperor Tippy:
you're the first to admit that on high levels wizards are obscenely powerful, yet you seem to be hapy about that and criticize most attempts to weaken them(mine for example). Am I missing something or assuming wrong thing?

okpokalypse
2007-03-17, 12:29 PM
For that matter... not one of the spells you described requires a wizard to "always go first" -- they just prevent surprise. And that 20th-level fighter build can do a massive amount of damage if he wins initiative and moves into range with his anti-magic shield.

That's the whole point. So long as a Wizard isn't surprised they can use Immediate Spells. These spells supercede current actions taking place. Greater Celerity --> Maximized (Rod) Time Stop --> Delayed Blast Fireball, Delayed Blast Fireball, Delayed Blast Fireball, Greater Invis, Dimension Door (400' - enough to get out of any true-seeing range). If by some means the target is still alive, it's got no clue where the Wizard just went.


An assassin or rogue-type whose weapon is coated with a well-chosen and enormously expensive poison has a reasonable chance of taking him out as well, again if he wins initiative (and how likely is it that a 20th level wizard will be maxing dex to the level that a 20th level rogue will??)

Poisons are a factor - but you have to surprise them. That's the caveat. It's even worse when you're facing a Wizard 10 / Divine Oracle 10. The L10 DO ability is "Immune to Surprise." How's that for a kick in the butt?


Lastly... a Magnificent Mansion is very useful -- but it's hardly the infinitely invunerable fortress of solitude. The entrance can be scried for and dispelled -- popping your wizard from sound asleep into the middle of an encounter, after the duration of his MoP and Foresight have passed...

Actually, the entrance can't be scried for. You can only scry creature targets per the PHB - not objects. Scrying inside the mansion doesn't tell you where it is, and it's easily stopped via Mind Blank.

What you're thinking of is Clairaudience / Clairvoyance - and that spell doesn't allow magical senses (detect invis, or example) to function through it, so you couldn't detect the entrance regardless.

Also, how do you propose to dispel it? You can't emulate a Caster Level, so when one uses UMD to cast a greater dispel , they do so at CL 13. The minimum CL needed. Your Max Check is a 33. A L20 Wizard with +3 in CL items is invulnerable to your Dispels.

* I'm assuming you're talking UMD here. After all, if you're relying on another Primary Caster to drop a Wizard, it kind of proves the point that they're untouchable by non-primary casters, no?

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-17, 12:33 PM
Just one simple question, Emperor Tippy:
you're the first to admit that on high levels wizards are obscenely powerful, yet you seem to be hapy about that and criticize most attempts to weaken them(mine for example). Am I missing something or assuming wrong thing?
Oh. I think that wizards should be obscenely powerful. Look through most fantasy literature, wizards are usually incredibly powerful.

But I would also love for there to be a balance at higher levels. The thing is not to nerf the wizard or other casters but to make the non casters more powerful. ToB made melee types viable at higher levels. BWL's fighter fix is very good at balancing fighters with wizards.

It depends entirely on the fix if I decided to support it or not. And I don't remember which one was yours so I can't say why I was against it.


Oh yeah and I do think that many spells should be weakened. But com up with a weakened shapechange that keeps the same flavor. Or a weakened Timestop that keeps the same flavor. No one (to my knowledge) has done either.

Variable Arcana
2007-03-17, 12:40 PM
Yes, yes they are. Want to watch me solo a wrym black dragon with core only at level 20?Nope. I believe a properly prepared level 20 wizard can do that.


I use CoP. Boccob then tells me what I want to know. It doesn't require any non RAW deity help. Clerics and Paladins are free to talk to their deities but that will have no affect on me.Again... you get a dozen yes-no questions. A fifth-level spell doesn't duplicate the effects of a Greater Deity's total knowledge of near-future events in their portfolio.

And the thing about predicting the future... If you change your plans and the other guy then does his future-prediction and changes his plans to accomodate, your initial set of predictions are no longer valid.


The wizard will win initiative. MoP arguably gives +20 to the check.Only if you can bully your novice DM into reading an initiative check as an opposed dexterity check. (The rules are close... but...)


If PHB2 is in play then clercity/greater clercity make initiative useless.Agreed about celerity -- though you spelled it wrong. With celerity in play, I would concede the point: No sub-divine creature in the D&D universe can go six seconds against a 20th level wizard with celerity and time stop. Celerity is broken. Immediate actions are very tough to DM -- what happens if three characters try to take immediate actions at the same time???


Um, most wizards have a very high dex. And you woudl have to avoid my contingency as well. And then you woudl have to drain all my Dex in that 1 hit before I get to act. No poison can do that. MoP could also give me a +20 to the save meaning I won't fail it. So even if you poison me I just ignore it and go quicken disjunction, timestop, drink potion of neutralize poison, dimensional lock, quickened cloudkill, forcecage.You're probably right about the poison. (Though there might be one properly suited, depending on your dump stat. You can't cast spells with a zero in any of your attributes...)

I should have been clearer. The melee attacker who would try to kill the wizard would be using a shield that casts "Anti-magic Field" -- it is the wizard-killing spell. (And remember -- the MoP will only work once. Use it to defend against his first attack, and he'll almost certainly succeed in tripping you with his AoO when you try to move out of the Anti-magic Field... (reach weapon; if you "withdraw" he can charge before you can cast a spell...))


Scrying couldn't be done by a melee character though. And even a caster would be very hard pressed to do it. You could attempt to scry on my wizard but find me a scrying spell that allows you to scry for a MM entrance? And to scry on me it has to have interplanar range.Scrying on a 20th level wizard is not an option -- Mind Blank renewed daily.

However... the fifth level "scry" does have interplanar range (though it only targets creatures) as does "discern location" which could find you if the caster has ever touched any object you take with you into the MMM... And, of course, twenty-questions with Contact Any Plane could eventually narrow down the location enough to find it...


Wizards redefine paranoid. Especially when they aren't with a group. Hell I've had some who travel around in Telekentic Spheres just to be extra safe. One even got a ring of continuous TK sphere and was never outside of it when out of his MM.
Some wizards no doubt do redefine paranoid -- however, I'd love to see a full listing of the daily spells cast by such a wizard. I've got to believe that between the eight hours of rest, most of an hour of spell prep, and all the long-casting-time spells (Private Sanctum, Contact Other Plane, Contingency every few weeks, and the literally dozens of standard-action spells he casts before he steps out of his Mansion...) He's going to start running out of the time and spell slots -- just casting Foresight twice and Mind Blank and Moment of Prescience eats up two spells at each of 8th and 9th level... Having disjunction and time stop prepared as well -- that he needs to accomplish any of the other things a powerful wizard ought to be doing.

Morty
2007-03-17, 12:41 PM
Oh. I think that wizards should be obscenely powerful. Look through most fantasy literature, wizards are usually incredibly powerful.

But I would also love for there to be a balance at higher levels. The thing is not to nerf the wizard or other casters but to make the non casters more powerful. ToB made melee types viable at higher levels. BWL's fighter fix is very good at balancing fighters with wizards.

It depends entirely on the fix if I decided to support it or not. And I don't remember which one was yours so I can't say why I was against it.


Oh yeah and I do think that many spells should be weakened. But com up with a weakened shapechange that keeps the same flavor. Or a weakened Timestop that keeps the same flavor. No one (to my knowledge) has done either.

Yeah, in books wizards may be obscenely powerful- though I haven't seen many, but my experience is quit limited- but that's a game. Not to mention wizards in books often aren't just poweful wizards, but some sort of demigods or god-chosen, like Belgarath. If the wizard can't be killed by any non-wizard, it's not fun anymore. And at this point no fighter fix can actually give him a chance in fight with optimised high-level wizard without breaking his flavor into million pieces. As for my fix- it basically prevented wizards from casting many buffs and battlefield control at the same time. MMM should be thrown into hell and forgotten about.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-17, 12:50 PM
Nope. I believe a properly prepared level 20 wizard can do that.

Again... you get a dozen yes-no questions. A fifth-level spell doesn't duplicate the effects of a Greater Deity's total knowledge of near-future events in their portfolio.
You ask a question of the deity. If he knows the answer he will tell you the truth 88% of the time. Boccob would have knowledge of the future concerning a level l20 wizard (especially one who worships him). So you can get advanced knowledge with CoP.


And the thing about predicting the future... If you change your plans and the other guy then does his future-prediction and changes his plans to accomodate, your initial set of predictions are no longer valid.
He would have to know that you know about his plans. How exactly is that happening?


Only if you can bully your novice DM into reading an initiative check as an opposed dexterity check. (The rules are close... but...)
Per RAW it can be read either way. CustServe has ruled both ways (and are mostly worthless). The FAQ doesn't say anything. And the sage hasn't said anything about it.


Agreed about celerity -- though you spelled it wrong. With celerity in play, I would concede the point: No sub-divine creature in the D&D universe can go six seconds against a 20th level wizard with celerity and time stop. Celerity is broken. Immediate actions are very tough to DM -- what happens if three characters try to take immediate actions at the same time???
If they try to take them at the same time then you rol la d20 and the higher number goes first I suppose. But I don't know waht RAW for that situation is.


You're probably right about the poison. (Though there might be one properly suited, depending on your dump stat. You can't cast spells with a zero in any of your attributes...)
Yeah. But most of my dump stats are at least a 10 before items or spells.


I should have been clearer. The melee attacker who would try to kill the wizard would be using a shield that casts "Anti-magic Field" -- it is the wizard-killing spell. (And remember -- the MoP will only work once. Use it to defend against his first attack, and he'll almost certainly succeed in tripping you with his AoO when you try to move out of the Anti-magic Field... (reach weapon; if you "withdraw" he can charge before you can cast a spell...))
But how do you get teh fighter in range to use the AMF feature to stop the wizard?


Scrying on a 20th level wizard is not an option -- Mind Blank renewed daily.

However... the fifth level "scry" does have interplanar range (though it only targets creatures) as does "discern location" which could find you if the caster has ever touched any object you take with you into the MMM... And, of course, twenty-questions with Contact Any Plane could eventually narrow down the location enough to find it.
Most require a non melee character. And not even deities know where the entrance to my MMM is. The entrance is inside a Private Sanctum. Even deities can't penetrate one of those.



Some wizards no doubt do redefine paranoid -- however, I'd love to see a full listing of the daily spells cast by such a wizard. I've got to believe that between the eight hours of rest, most of an hour of spell prep, and all the long-casting-time spells (Private Sanctum, Contact Other Plane, Contingency every few weeks, and the literally dozens of standard-action spells he casts before he steps out of his Mansion...) He's going to start running out of the time and spell slots -- just casting Foresight twice and Mind Blank and Moment of Prescience eats up two spells at each of 8th and 9th level... Having disjunction and time stop prepared as well -- that he needs to accomplish any of the other things a powerful wizard ought to be doing.

I'm finishing up the spell list now and it will be up later today.

Variable Arcana
2007-03-17, 12:54 PM
Tippy -- Post #64 was a response to the post by "Arbitrary" -- hence starting the post with his name.

Re: COP -- knowing someone may try to ambush you tomorrow is not the same as knowing who, how, where and when.

Additionally, COP only helps if your ambusher won't be under the influence of a Mind Blank effect when he attacks you.

Again:
The wizard always goes first though.

The character who goes first will likely win -- if it's the wizard, he will definitely win.

Please explain how the wizard will *ALWAYS* go first. (without 'celerity' -- again, I concede the argument in games where 'celerity' is in play)

The spells you've described explain why he can't be "surprised". That's not the same as going first.

The MoP +20 bonus to initiative is not RAW.

Okpokalypse-

Given celerity, you're right.

Re: mansion-dispeller...
I was making two separate arguments -- one about a properly prepared melee character who wins initiative and the other about the less-than-total-invulnerability of a Magnificent Mansion. It's pretty good, but it's not absolutely invulnerable.

okpokalypse
2007-03-17, 01:02 PM
Oh yeah and I do think that many spells should be weakened. But com up with a weakened shapechange that keeps the same flavor. Or a weakened Timestop that keeps the same flavor. No one (to my knowledge) has done either.

One could quickly bring some semblance of balance between primary casters and melee's by doing the following:

Remove immediate effects that create extra actions (Celerity)
Remove immediate effects that accellerate one's turn (Anticipatory Strike)
Remove Divine Meta-Magic
Remove Natural Spell & Wild Armor
Adjust ShapeChange (like Greater Metamorphosis was) to 25 HD Max. Only allow the use of 1 Supernatural Ability of the New Shape.There's more that can, and should be done, but I don't have the time to run through the ton of Psionic powers that are busted. Just a few off the top of my head are Fission (Create Extra You at -2 Level), Time Regression (Last Round Do-Over), Schism (Split your mind - gain Extra Actions), True Mind Switch (Perma-Steal a Body, get it's physical stats & bonuses, Ex abilities, etc..) and Psychic Reformation (relearn feats, skills, etc..).

Variable Arcana
2007-03-17, 01:27 PM
Tippy-

Re: COP...

Yes, of course you can get advance knowledge. That wasn't my point -- it's not kind of knowledge, but *quantity* of information that is limited.

Each casting by a 20th level wizard gets you exactly 10 bits of information, if you've chosen your questions optimally. A genius like our wizard is likely to come quite close to optimal information-maxing questions. However... even 30 bits of information is fairly paltry, and that's from 3 casting.

First question: will someone attempt to ambush me tomorrow?
Answer: Yes.

It would take three more questions to figure out which of the eight hours of the day the attack will take place in. If you want to know it within ten minutes, that's another three questions.

If you'd like to know the number of individuals involved in the ambush, their character classes, their intended first action...

The yes-no questions add up... very quickly





And the thing about predicting the future... If you change your plans and the other guy then does his future-prediction and changes his plans to accomodate, your initial set of predictions are no longer valid.
He would have to know that you know about his plans. How exactly is that happening?
No he wouldn't. It's just a question of who predicted the future most recently...
You wake up every morning and spend twenty or thirty minutes quizzing Boccob, and find out what the assassin plans. He plans to attack you at 3:42 PM in the throneroom where you will be ensuring the proper succession to the blah, blah, blah...

At noon, he goes to a soothsayer, nervous about the attack despite all his elaborate preparations (after all, you're pretty scary), and discovers that for some reason his current plan will now fail (though he doesn't know it, this is because you changed your plans in response to Boccob's answers that morning).

Thus, the assassin will change his plans -- and Boccob's answers, though accurate at the time, are no longer correct.

((Future-Prediction paradoxes are much nastier to unsnarl than mere time-travel ones))


But how do you get teh fighter in range to use the AMF feature to stop the wizard?That, of course, depends on your wizard. If he never leaves his Magnificent Mansion, you probably don't. It depends what he's out in the world accomplishing, if anything. (If he's never out in the world accomplishing things, of course, he's really already neutralized himself.)

Should also be mentioned... I'd have thought most 20th level wizards who are this paranoid and determined to be immortal would have taken one of the true-immortality routes -- such as Lichdom...


I'm finishing up the spell list now and it will be up later today.
Cool. That'll be a spectacular list to see.

(Heck, you might even be right that a wizard can be properly prepared to fend everything off...)

Merlin the Tuna
2007-03-17, 01:39 PM
I should have been clearer. The melee attacker who would try to kill the wizard would be using a shield that casts "Anti-magic Field"Very easily avoided. Through either Extraordinary Spell Aim (feat, CAdventurer) or just the Archmage's Mastery of Shaping ability (Y HELO THAR CORE), a wizard can already walk around in a protective AMF that doesn't affect him if he so desires. As soon as your fighter gets close enough to activate this shield you speak of, the shield is non-magical, and he can't get his own AMF (which would affect the Wizard) off.

Admittedly, being surrounded by an AMF might at times be bothersome for a Wizard -- you lose access to rays (which can hurt), size increases (Shapechange! Nooo~!), and some blasts (eh) -- but there's still plenty to work with outside of that.

Incidentally, an item that casts AMF is at least 23,760 gp by the book. That assumes one charge per day, and it's on an item that doesn't do anything else, such as a shield. It's also at minimum caster level. You're playing the Wizard's game; you're going to job to him at it.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-17, 01:45 PM
Tippy-

Re: COP...

Yes, of course you can get advance knowledge. That wasn't my point -- it's not kind of knowledge, but *quantity* of information that is limited.

Each casting by a 20th level wizard gets you exactly 10 bits of information, if you've chosen your questions optimally. A genius like our wizard is likely to come quite close to optimal information-maxing questions. However... even 30 bits of information is fairly paltry, and that's from 3 casting.

First question: will someone attempt to ambush me tomorrow?
Answer: Yes.

It would take three more questions to figure out which of the eight hours of the day the attack will take place in. If you want to know it within ten minutes, that's another three questions.

If you'd like to know the number of individuals involved in the ambush, their character classes, their intended first action...

The yes-no questions add up... very quickly
Yes they do. It gets to be a pain.




No he wouldn't. It's just a question of who predicted the future most recently...
You wake up every morning and spend twenty or thirty minutes quizzing Boccob, and find out what the assassin plans. He plans to attack you at 3:42 PM in the throneroom where you will be ensuring the proper succession to the blah, blah, blah...

At noon, he goes to a soothsayer, nervous about the attack despite all his elaborate preparations (after all, you're pretty scary), and discovers that for some reason his current plan will now fail (though he doesn't know it, this is because you changed your plans in response to Boccob's answers that morning).

Thus, the assassin will change his plans -- and Boccob's answers, though accurate at the time, are no longer correct.
How does the assassin change his plans in 3 hours and 42 minutes to something good enough to be able to be a credible threat to the wizard?


((Future-Prediction paradoxes are much nastier to unsnarl than mere time-travel ones))
Yeah. It gets very complicated very fast.

Boccob tells me that you will do X. You find out that I knwo about X so you do Y. But per RAW Boccob couldn't have given me false information. So he would have predicted that you would do Y. But now when you view the future then you would find out that X would still work so you would never do Y.

To solve such paradoxes I use the following system. I use CoP to contact a grater deity (boccob) and you get someone to use CoP but that someone only contacts a lesser deity. You get a false answer no matter how many times you ask the question because its the only way to stop a paradox. If we both use greater deities then we look at the deities divine rank. Highest wins. If both DR's are equal then we flip a coin. Heads my answer was correct, tails your answer was correct.


That, of course, depends on your wizard. If he never leaves his Magnificent Mansion, you probably don't. It depends what he's out in the world accomplishing, if anything. (If he's never out in the world accomplishing things, of course, he's really already neutralized himself.)
This depends on the wizard. I coudl kill 2 dragons per day and spend the rest of my time in my MM. Do this until you get epic casting and then you win. Because with epic casting you can make a spell that makes you immune to anything and everything.


Should also be mentioned... I'd have thought most 20th level wizards who are this paranoid and determined to be immortal would have taken one of the true-immortality routes -- such as Lichdom...
I would have just started as an Elan. Or as a Grey Elf and then use a Power Stone of True Mind Switch to get the body on an Elan with the +2 to Int from Grey Elf.



Cool. That'll be a spectacular list to see.

(Heck, you might even be right that a wizard can be properly prepared to fend everything off...)

No big surprise on it as far as I know. The problem is replacing the spell compendium, Complete Mage, and PHB2 spells on it with useful core spells.

Leush
2007-03-17, 02:13 PM
Meta-Magic. A Wizard's ability to enhance their effects with Meta-Magic, or use spells as swift / immediate actions trumps UMD by a long shot. Even if you're reading a Celerity Scroll, it still takes a standard action to spell complete it - so you lose the benefit of creating extra time.

Firstly I would like you to forgive me for refusing to acknowledge anything outside the SRD, even if it is meant to help my argument.

Secondly, I'd expect the fighter to use his UMD checks on long lasting effects like MOP and contingency and what not, which grant effects which last a while. It's not like he's going to try to outmagic the wizard in the middle of the fight (Well he might just use his superior initiative to timestop or disjunct or whatnot) before the wizard can put his hands on his Greater Quicken rod (unless it's one of THOSE wizards who never lets go of said rod) . He's going to [try to] out-inititative him and beat him to death with one of the multiple sticks that he carries, position him or whatever.

.....As for wizards beating dragons, dragons are meant to have high intelligence and high level spellcasting as well as the goodness of being giant, stuff breathing reptiles with wings, methinks that someone doesn't optimise their dragons enough:smallsigh:

Ahh... How I love a good wizard thread!

Marius
2007-03-17, 02:21 PM
One could quickly bring some semblance of balance between primary casters and melee's by doing the following:
Remove immediate effects that create extra actions (Celerity)
Remove immediate effects that accellerate one's turn (Anticipatory Strike)
Remove Divine Meta-Magic
Remove Natural Spell & Wild Armor
Adjust ShapeChange (like Greater Metamorphosis was) to 25 HD Max. Only allow the use of 1 Supernatural Ability of the New Shape.There's more that can, and should be done, but I don't have the time to run through the ton of Psionic powers that are busted. Just a few off the top of my head are Fission (Create Extra You at -2 Level), Time Regression (Last Round Do-Over), Schism (Split your mind - gain Extra Actions), True Mind Switch (Perma-Steal a Body, get it's physical stats & bonuses, Ex abilities, etc..) and Psychic Reformation (relearn feats, skills, etc..).

You forgot Temporal Acceleration ;)

martyboy74
2007-03-17, 02:42 PM
You forgot Temporal Acceleration ;)
Oh yeah, 'cause that's so much more broken than Time Stop...


You don't even get a worthwhile duration until 15th or 19th level...

crazedloon
2007-03-17, 02:52 PM
I’m sorry but the argument that you think that Wizards should be obscenely powerful based on fantasy fiction is a little ludicrous. Wizards very widely between books. However I will take possibly the most well known wizard of them all (no not Harry Potter :smalltongue: ) and you will have to explain to me how he is ludicrously powerful

Gandalf the gray/white:
One of the first wizards in modern fantasy fiction (There are wizards long before that in mythos and other ancient cultures but I personally cant think of one uber powered one who wasn’t ether divine or divinely empowered.) yet he would be smashed easily by a level 7 or so wiz. Not once does he dominate like a level 20 Wiz would in a battle. His magic is more of subtle nature manipulating light in the battle against orcs. And his abilities also come into their own when he is researching information about anything. Not even when he returns as the white does he kill swaths of orcs. Yes he kills a great deal but he doesn’t point and the Nazgul die indeed he has a hard time killing them and he is wielding truly epic weapons.

How can a DnD Wiz compare this epic hero? Really you can't compare them because they are so different. If you ask me the Wizard has gone down a bad path of pretty much if you want to do it obviously magic will allow you to. Really I prefer the Idea that Magic doesn’t make the Impossible happen it just bends the rules i.e. you don’t fly because you want to you fly because you summon a wind to concentrate under your feat

Variable Arcana
2007-03-17, 02:59 PM
Gandalf kills one of the Nazgul?

I don't remember that passage... I remember Eowyn and Pippin killing one...


Tippy-

Yeah... the "My God is Greater than Your God" route works until the assassin consults a priest of the greater god of knowledge or the greater god of secrets or something... But it does solve the paradox.

Not sure how he'd modify his plan precisely.

In the case of your wizard who leaves the Batcave each morning to slay two dragons and return home... the obvious thing to do would be to work with one of the dragons...

I believe a 20th level wizard can casually locate and kill two powerful dragons in a day. I'm not so sure that he's going to be invulnerable at the same time. If a 20th level fighter pops up in a way that would (if not for Foresight) have surprised the wizard... and he's either wearing the anti-magic shield (TM) or has a contingent anti-magic field or whatever... I think he still gets a non-MoP'd attack (and perhaps an AoO when the wizard tries to exit the field), to say nothing of the dragon's chance to act while the wizard is distracted...

(If the wizard is flying, there's an added bonus -- mid-air grapple with contingent anti-magic field... falling damage is a nice way to start the fight.)

Again, it's going to take everything going right for the fighter for him to beat the wizard -- but it is doable, if he can catch the wizard in an anti-magic field and trip/grapple him there for long enough. One full attack is game over.

crazedloon
2007-03-17, 03:02 PM
Gandalf kills one of the Nazgul?

I don't remember that passage... I remember Eowyn and Pippin killing one...

I think he does but he may not its been a while since i last read the last book.

Emperor Demonking
2007-03-17, 03:02 PM
Gandalf was divine wasn't he. At higher levels wizards simply are better at the lower three not so good.

The_Werebear
2007-03-17, 03:21 PM
From what I can tell, Gandalf is a Cleric anyway.

As for the level 20 fighter poping up en route to a dragon... You would know about it from CoP, know when he comes, and destroy him from a distance. Take your EXP for that, kill one dragon, and go rest in your mansion.

Raum
2007-03-17, 03:23 PM
Comparing game mechanics to fiction is generally pointless. Quite frankly, the fiction will cover every point of view. Fiction, particularly epic fiction, is going to show case a hero / heroine (or anti-hero / anti-heroine) so if you want weak mages in fiction read stories where the protagonist is a fighter. The opposite applies also.

In any case, Gandalf's power or lack thereof is pretty far afield from the OP's request.

To the OP - Some good advice on spells has been given in particular, Glitterdust, Fog Cloud, and Web are good low level BC spells. Some general advice: look for spells which have effects even in case of a save or spells which don't allow a save. Ensure you have at least one spell using each type of save and learn which opponents have what weak saves (in character, you probably already know out of character). Finally, most of your spells should last more than one round. This is one reason why Haste is far more effective than Fireball, it keeps adding to damage without costing you more spells.

Marius
2007-03-17, 05:12 PM
Oh yeah, 'cause that's so much more broken than Time Stop...


You don't even get a worthwhile duration until 15th or 19th level...

I know, but you can't even cast time stop until the 17th level. I didn't say it was more broken than time stop, psionics are much more balance than magic.

Saph
2007-03-17, 06:38 PM
Like I said, showing instead of telling them.

What's the point? It's not at all guaranteed that they're going to be persuaded by you showing them. If they think wizards are weak, they're probably not very observant anyway, so your 'showing them' plan is likely to fail. And like everyone's said, you can't do 'epic win' at level 4.


I won't be gloating every time I do anything. I'm going to persuade them to my point of view using a very concrete example.

Again, what's the point? So they, in your opinion, underestimate the power of casters. Who cares?

Having other people underestimate your character's power is a GOOD thing. Use it. I know it's tempting to try and prove how powerful you are, but it isn't really all that good an idea.

- Saph

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-17, 06:59 PM
What's the point? It's not at all guaranteed that they're going to be persuaded by you showing them. If they think wizards are weak, they're probably not very observant anyway, so your 'showing them' plan is likely to fail. And like everyone's said, you can't do 'epic win' at level 4.



Again, what's the point? So they, in your opinion, underestimate the power of casters. Who cares?

Having other people underestimate your character's power is a GOOD thing. Use it. I know it's tempting to try and prove how powerful you are, but it isn't really all that good an idea.

- Saph

I've already told you the point, Saph. Because I want them to see my point of view. And no, it doesn't guarantee success, but it's clear just telling them isn't working, and I want to try.
And since I'm going to make this character, apparently I care.

Saph
2007-03-17, 07:09 PM
I've already told you the point, Saph. Because I want them to see my point of view.

But they have seen your point of view - you've explained it to them. They just don't agree / don't care.


And no, it doesn't guarantee success, but it's clear just telling them isn't working, and I want to try.
And since I'm going to make this character, apparently I care.

Sorry if I got on your nerves. What I was trying to say - maybe not all that well - was that in some ways it's a lot easier to play a character that the other players don't think is very powerful.

It's always tempting to prove how effective you are, but it rarely actually gets you anything, and giving away your best tricks can have bad consequences (GMs do metagame, even the ones that try not to). It's also a lot less effort not to go out of your way to prove people wrong when they boast about being stronger than you. Let the other guy boast. He'll find out otherwise eventually, no matter what you do.

- Saph

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-17, 07:42 PM
But they have seen your point of view - you've explained it to them. They just don't agree / don't care.
They don't believe me, and I figure it can't hurt to show. I've been meaning to try more casters anyway.




Sorry if I got on your nerves. What I was trying to say - maybe not all that well - was that in some ways it's a lot easier to play a character that the other players don't think is very powerful.

Like I said, I usually don't play casters--I've made two in my entire D&D experience, an artificer and a cleric. And I only used the cleric for about one game before it ended.

Arbitrarity
2007-03-17, 09:43 PM
Arbitrary...

Re: Contact Other Plane...
Which yes-no question will you be getting your million-to-one-chance-of-being-right answer to every day?

How will you use it to gain perfect knowledge of all future events?

Re: "scrying" vs "Casting Scrying"

My assertion is: Nothing in the description of Mage's Magnificent Mansion protects the location of the entrance with anything more than invisibility. It can be found. (via magic, direct or indirect, via good scouting work...) It can be dispelled.

Yes, a powerful paranoid wizard who only sleeps in MMMs is likely to take further precautions. For any set of precautions, there is a way to defeat them. Even in D&D there is no perfect defense.

Re: Anti-magic shield
No I don't mean spell resistance. Why on earth would you think I did?

I'm talking about the fighter's magic shield which produces an Anti-magic Field once per day -- a more than reasonable magic item for a 20th level character to have -- and one that is rather useful when fighting a wizard.

Re: the other two quotes... Wow. You can cut and paste -- seriously... at least name the spells and sketch out how you think their existence advances your argument.


Yes. This is indeed how the games of cops and robbers we all played when we were children always ended. "I shot you!" "No you didn't! You missed!"

*sarcasm alert* It's a shame we don't have a set of rules to use to adjudicate when people hit and when they miss *end sarcasm*

Can you perhaps explain in coherent sentences why you believe that a 20th level fighter will necessarily miss your wizard?

For example, MoP grants you a big bonus to your AC for one attack (though the 50th level fighter initially postulated would laugh at the bonus, the more reasonable 20th level one would likely miss), and is then used up. (Of course... if the fighter has a cohort, or Boccob forbid, it's two fifteenth level fighters instead of one twentieth...)

And then explain how you "bounce way up in the air" despite being inside an anti-magic field -- the one the fighter's shield can create once per day...

Yes... Wizards are incredibly powerful -- by far the most powerful class at upper levels. But they are nothing like unbeatable. In 20th level PC-v-PC combat, whichever character initiates the battle should usually win outright if they win initiative as well. The things 20th level PCs can do are just too varied and powerful for it to be otherwise.

You or I could come up with a spell that would protect a 20th level wizard from any given attack -- but not a combination of spells he could cast every day that would protect him from every possible attack.


Bleah, sorry about that. Ok. You can't scry the wizard. If the assassin tries to hit the wizard with his weapon, the wizard activates MoP, gets obscene AC bonuses, and is almost guarenteed to avoid such an attack. The spells are evidence of the impossiblity of scrying the wizard, or his possesions.

The bouncing related to the assassin. The fighter having a shield making a 1/day AMF is custom, and is thus not RAW, or it allows the wizard ridiculous abilities. The cost is actually pretty low.

Ah, we speak of the fighter. Right, the postulated 50'th level fighter. K. First, because I'm bored, can we calculate how much XP that's worth? :smallbiggrin:

Hey, I have a question. If the fighter gets surprise, wins initiative, while using an item of 1/day AMF, or two fighters, etc, why can't the wizard do something equivalent?

Like say, asking Boccob "Is anyone planning to kill me within the next week (year, insert time here)" *if negative* "(same, with longer time frames)"
In this manner, I eventually get a true answer, and each week, I have 1 in 16000 odds of not learning I will be attacked. Over years, etc, the odds begin to favor me. More.

Since this is a level 11+ character, he's a target for Legend Lore, which allows me to learn things about him. Or Vision, depending on how much I value my life and time. A Genesis usage here would help. Now, a bit of paranoia involving Prying Eyes might help, or making a Clone.

Course, the issue here is time, but of MMM which has been warded, possibly arcane locked, and actually... can you dispel a spell on another plane? Or do you just dispel the portal? How about Screen?

Ach. To many spells used, and to refute an argument which involves custom items, very specific circumstances, exactly designed to kill someone.

To kill such a fighter, feint his 1/day use item, kill him 2 hours later.

Dausuul
2007-03-18, 02:00 AM
20th-level bard. Maxed-out Charisma (say 34 after tomes, cloak of charisma, and level increases). Maxed-out Bluff. Glibness. Circlet of persuasion, Skill Focus (Bluff), and Persuasive for a total +73 on Bluff checks.

"Wizard, the God of Accursed Magic whose name may not be spoken has grown angry with you. He is going to turn all your vast powers against you! Your only hope of survival is to cast anti-magic shell on yourself, right now, then kneel, close your eyes, and pray for forgiveness. Don't worry, I'll protect you while your defenses are down."

*wizard casts, kneels, closes eyes, and prays*
*bard whips out a bow and fires a volley of arrows coated in insanely-high-DC poison*

"...Sucker."

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-18, 02:04 AM
Good thing that Bluff/Diplomacy don't work on PCs.

And good thing that Bluff makes them think you're not lying, it doesn't make them think you're right. "Yeah, sorry, that's not how Boccob works." or "Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Mystra would just cut me off from the Weave if she was going to do that."

Dausuul
2007-03-18, 02:11 AM
Good thing that Bluff/Diplomacy don't work on PCs.

They don't? Where does it say that? Diplomacy specifies NPCs, but I see no such restriction on Bluff.


And good thing that Bluff makes them think you're not lying, it doesn't make them think you're right. "Yeah, sorry, that's not how Boccob works." or "Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Mystra would just cut me off from the Weave if she was going to do that."

SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) "A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe."

One round being quite enough.

Zincorium
2007-03-18, 02:15 AM
They don't? Where does it say that? Diplomacy specifies NPCs, but I see no such restriction on Bluff.



SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) "A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe."

One round being quite enough.

Yeah, but the rest of that paragraph is pretty specific. It is, specifically, not a suggestion spell, and it lists an example where you tell a shopkeep his shoes are untied, and he does not have to tie his shoes, merely he then checks. Honestly, an 18+ intelligence wizard who does not trust you is going to see if he can't, I dunno, come up with a solution that does not render him helpless?

Dausuul
2007-03-18, 02:39 AM
Yeah, but the rest of that paragraph is pretty specific. It is, specifically, not a suggestion spell, and it lists an example where you tell a shopkeep his shoes are untied, and he does not have to tie his shoes, merely he then checks. Honestly, an 18+ intelligence wizard who does not trust you is going to see if he can't, I dunno, come up with a solution that does not render him helpless?

Actually, the rest of that paragraph is vague as hell. It says that Bluff is not a suggestion spell but does not lay out the difference between the two, nor does it specify what the limitations of Bluff are. The shopkeep example I would interpret as demonstrating the "1 round or less" limitation. You can get the shopkeep to pay attention to his shoes briefly; you cannot get him to sit down on the floor and mess with his shoes for several minutes.

In this case, the bard is trying to Bluff the wizard into thinking that he will die if he does not cast anti-magic field instantly. The only specific information in the description of Bluff ("the target reacts as you wish for a short time or believes something you want it to believe") suggests that the Bluff would work, assuming the bard could beat the wizard's Sense Motive despite taking a -30 to -40 penalty. Immediately after casting, the wizard would say, "Hey, wait a minute--what the hell?" But by that time the bard would already have shot him full of poison.

ZekeArgo
2007-03-18, 02:51 AM
Actually, the rest of that paragraph is vague as hell. It says that Bluff is not a suggestion spell but does not lay out the difference between the two, nor does it specify what the limitations of Bluff are. The shopkeep example I would interpret as demonstrating the "1 round or less" limitation. You can get the shopkeep to pay attention to his shoes briefly; you cannot get him to sit down on the floor and mess with his shoes for several minutes.

In this case, the bard is trying to Bluff the wizard into thinking that he will die if he does not cast anti-magic field instantly. The only specific information in the description of Bluff ("the target reacts as you wish for a short time or believes something you want it to believe") suggests that the Bluff would work, assuming the bard could beat the wizard's Sense Motive despite taking a -30 to -40 penalty. Immediately after casting, the wizard would say, "Hey, wait a minute--what the hell?" But by that time the bard would already have shot him full of poison.

Nevermind this would require the wizard *prepare* antimagic field instead of say, useful spells.

Zincorium
2007-03-18, 02:55 AM
Aaaand what stops the wizard from thinking, very quickly as his intelligence warrants, why can't I use a quickened teleport back to my home, and cast the antimagic shell and pray while protected by my golems/undead/minions?

And by it not being a suggestion, it's establishing that it is not in any way depriving a creature of free will or controlling them. Just because you have proffered a course of action does not mean they are compelled to do exactly as you have asked in that order and without doing anything else.

Of course, all this depends on the bard approaching the wizard out of combat and the wizard listening to them, and assuming the wizard has antimagic shell memorized. And recognizes a god as having control over magic. Those are by no means certain.

Variable Arcana
2007-03-18, 08:24 AM
More generally on the all-powerful wizard....

I think my main problem with the uber-paranoid, hiding in my MMM except for a few small excursions, using massive divinations to be sure it's safe wizard is that it's such a waste of an incredibly powerful 20th level primary caster.

At that level, a wizard *ought* to be exerting power primarily by giving orders, not by his personal actions. He *ought* to be one of the most important people in the world -- and therefore some greater gods ought to wish him will, while others wish him ill. If he doesn't rule a nation, he ought to be the power behind a throne. (Let the figurehead deal with the assassins...)

Contact Other Plane is a very vaguely written spell. There is nothing in the description which indicates that you have any control over who or what responds to your spell -- it is reasonable to assume that you can select which row of the table to use (Greater Deity of the Outer Planes as opposed to Appropriate Elemental Plane, for example) but there's nothing at all to indicate that you could, for example, decide to contact the God Boccob. And at least one article at Wizards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20020705) states that unfriendly powers can intercept the spell, and you-the-caster have no way of knowing who responded to your questions.

(That is, that the "1-88 True Answer" is for use when the party is low enough in power *not* to have gained the direct attention and interest of the greater gods...)

Treating Contact Other Plane as a purely mechanical spell like Otto's Irresistable Dance is probably the same mistake as treating Bluff and Diplomacy as purely mechanical skills like Spot and Listen.

Last thought...

The biggest reason that high level wizards are overpowered (even after the broken spells are forbidden) is that they have the near-total capacity to dictate the number of encounters they will have in a day. D&D classes are (supposed to be) balanced on the assumption of 4 encounters a day. The 20th level wizard casting Foresight twice, and beginning his combat against the 20th level fighter with a quickened disjunction and a time stop -- he will win that encounter -- but he can't do that twice, much less four times, in one day.

That doesn't help the first (or second) 20th level fighter (or massive dragon with a high dex) that he faces in the day -- but it is what the game designers were shooting for.

Marius
2007-03-18, 08:55 AM
More generally on the all-powerful wizard....

I think my main problem with the uber-paranoid, hiding in my MMM except for a few small excursions, using massive divinations to be sure it's safe wizard is that it's such a waste of an incredibly powerful 20th level primary caster.

At that level, a wizard *ought* to be exerting power primarily by giving orders, not by his personal actions. He *ought* to be one of the most important people in the world -- and therefore some greater gods ought to wish him will, while others wish him ill. If he doesn't rule a nation, he ought to be the power behind a throne. (Let the figurehead deal with the assassins...)

Contact Other Plane is a very vaguely written spell. There is nothing in the description which indicates that you have any control over who or what responds to your spell -- it is reasonable to assume that you can select which row of the table to use (Greater Deity of the Outer Planes as opposed to Appropriate Elemental Plane, for example) but there's nothing at all to indicate that you could, for example, decide to contact the God Boccob. And at least one article at Wizards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20020705) states that unfriendly powers can intercept the spell, and you-the-caster have no way of knowing who responded to your questions.

(That is, that the "1-88 True Answer" is for use when the party is low enough in power *not* to have gained the direct attention and interest of the greater gods...)

Treating Contact Other Plane as a purely mechanical spell like Otto's Irresistable Dance is probably the same mistake as treating Bluff and Diplomacy as purely mechanical skills like Spot and Listen.

Last thought...

The biggest reason that high level wizards are overpowered (even after the broken spells are forbidden) is that they have the near-total capacity to dictate the number of encounters they will have in a day. D&D classes are (supposed to be) balanced on the assumption of 4 encounters a day. The 20th level wizard casting Foresight twice, and beginning his combat against the 20th level fighter with a quickened disjunction and a time stop -- he will win that encounter -- but he can't do that twice, much less four times, in one day.

That doesn't help the first (or second) 20th level fighter (or massive dragon with a high dex) that he faces in the day -- but it is what the game designers were shooting for.

People always assume that the 4 encounters are always fights and that they have to be always solved in the same way. They are not.

Pocket lint
2007-03-18, 12:31 PM
Personally, I think Boccob "the Uncaring" would very quickly start caring even less than usual about the fate of some paranoid dork who keeps tugging his sleeve every single day...

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-18, 02:07 PM
Well heres a pretty standard general spell list.

9th
1: Mage’s Disjunction
2: Timestop
3: Foresight
4: Timestop
5:Mage’s Disjunction
6: Foresight

8th
1: Mind Blank
2: Moment of Prescience
3: Telekinetic Sphere
4: Dimensional Lock
5: Dimensional Lock
6: (Whatever you want, if its allowed Polymorph Any Object would be the best choice. Or perhaps another greater teleport)

7th
1: Teleport, Greater
2: Teleport, Greater
3: Forcecage
4: Forcecage
5: Mage’s Magnificent Mansion
6: Teleport, Greater

6th
1: Contingency
2: Disintegrate
3: Dispel Magic, Greater
4: True Seeing
5:
6:

5th
1: Cloudkill
2: Cloudkill
3: Wall of Force
4: Contact Other Planes
5: Contact Other Planes
6: (Whatever you want. Perhaps Teleport. Or leave blank so you can fill it with only 15 minutes notice)
7: (Whatever you want. Perhaps Teleport. Or leave blank so you can fill it with only 15 minutes notice)

4th
1: Stoneskin
2: Enveneration
3: Left blank to be filled as needed
4: Invisibility, Greater
5: Invisibility, Greater
6: Dimension Door
7: Dimension Door

3rd
1: Phantom Steed
2: Phantom Steed
3: Windwall
4: Ray of Exhaustion
5: Gaseous Form
6: Haste
7: Left blank to be filled as needed

2nd
1: Glitterdust
2: Glitterdust
3: Detect Thoughts
4: Detect Thoughts
5: Fill with whatever you feel like
6: Fill with whatever you feel like
7: Fill with whatever you feel like

1st
1: Ray of Enfeeblement
2: Grease
3: Fill with whatever
4: Fill with whatever
5: Fill with whatever
6: Fill with whatever
7: Fill with whatever
8: Fill with whatever

0 level spells can be filled with whatever.

With that list you can deal with at least 2 fighters of pretty much any level and with most other things that would attack you. The numerous greater teleports can get you away from anything that you can't kill with what you have prepared. You come back the next day wit ha specialized list to deal with them. This list is also for a level 20 pure wizard using core only. If I could take archmage it would be different. The same with the spell compendium, PHB2, or Complete Mage being allowed.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-18, 02:16 PM
Well heres a pretty standard general spell list.

9th
1: Mage’s Disjunction
2: Timestop
3: Foresight
4: Timestop
5:Mage’s Disjunction
6: Foresight

8th
1: Mind Blank
2: Moment of Prescience
3: Telekinetic Sphere
4: Dimensional Lock
5: Dimensional Lock
6: (Whatever you want, if its allowed Polymorph Any Object would be the best choice. Or perhaps another greater teleport)

7th
1: Teleport, Greater
2: Teleport, Greater
3: Forcecage
4: Forcecage
5: Mage’s Magnificent Mansion
6: Teleport, Greater

6th
1: Contingency
2: Disintegrate
3: Dispel Magic, Greater
4: True Seeing
5:
6:

5th
1: Cloudkill
2: Cloudkill
3: Wall of Force
4: Contact Other Planes
5: Contact Other Planes
6: (Whatever you want. Perhaps Teleport. Or leave blank so you can fill it with only 15 minutes notice)
7: (Whatever you want. Perhaps Teleport. Or leave blank so you can fill it with only 15 minutes notice)

4th
1: Stoneskin
2: Enveneration
3: Left blank to be filled as needed
4: Invisibility, Greater
5: Invisibility, Greater
6: Dimension Door
7: Dimension Door

3rd
1: Phantom Steed
2: Phantom Steed
3: Windwall
4: Ray of Exhaustion
5: Gaseous Form
6: Haste
7: Left blank to be filled as needed

2nd
1: Glitterdust
2: Glitterdust
3: Detect Thoughts
4: Detect Thoughts
5: Fill with whatever you feel like
6: Fill with whatever you feel like
7: Fill with whatever you feel like

1st
1: Ray of Enfeeblement
2: Grease
3: Fill with whatever
4: Fill with whatever
5: Fill with whatever
6: Fill with whatever
7: Fill with whatever
8: Fill with whatever

0 level spells can be filled with whatever.

With that list you can deal with at least 2 fighters of pretty much any level and with most other things that would attack you. The numerous greater teleports can get you away from anything that you can't kill with what you have prepared. You come back the next day wit ha specialized list to deal with them. This list is also for a level 20 pure wizard using core only. If I could take archmage it would be different. The same with the spell compendium, PHB2, or Complete Mage being allowed.
If complete mage is allowed, Master Specialist is a great PRC for a specialist wizard. Some useful abilities and +2 cater level, and you can take it at level 3, so its usually worth it.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-18, 02:26 PM
I would use the elven wizard substitution levels from Races of the Wild if that was allowed for the extra 9th level slot and Archamge to get Timestop as a spell like ability twice per day at the cost of only 1 9th level and 1 5th level slot.

Doing both of those woudl get me 2 more 9th level slots to fill.

If I could use Complete Arcane then I get Craft Contingent Spell cheese and just stack contingencies on me.

PHB2 would get me Celercity/greater Celercity (however its spelled).

Spell Compendium would change a lot of the list.

dorshe1
2007-03-18, 02:48 PM
I'm still a fan that divination will only cause your heartache.

"Is anyone planning to ambush me today" - The CoP says 'No' because they aren't planning, they have already planned it. Or they say 'yes' and you waste your spells only to find out that someone is 'planning' to kill you on that day, but not execute it that day.

"Will anyone attempt to ambush me today?" - The CoP says 'No' and you are surprised when the lvl 20 fighter jumps out of a bush and kills you. He didn't 'attempt' to ambush you, he did ambush you.

"Will anyone ambush me today?" - The CoP says 'Yes' you spend more spells to find out exactly when and where... and still get surprised because according to you the CoP can't be wrong. So if he answered yes, then you have to get ambushed, because if you say that you can 'change' the future with your predictions, then so can your opponents and your CoP will be useless.

Just my two cents on divinations.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-18, 03:08 PM
Your a 36 Int wizard. You will be able to come up wit ha question in suitable legalese that gets around such problems.

Rigeld2
2007-03-19, 06:44 AM
"Is anyone planning to ambush me today" - The CoP says 'No' because they aren't planning, they have already planned it. Or they say 'yes' and you waste your spells only to find out that someone is 'planning' to kill you on that day, but not execute it that day.
planning - "the cognitive process of thinking about what you will do in the event of something happening; "his planning for retirement was hindered by several uncertainties""
You plan for something up until it happens - just because youve decided on a way to accomplish it doesnt mean you dont keep going over it until you go through with it. Youre still planning up until it happens.

Your other questions have similar problems but the best way would be:

"Am I going to be involved in combat today?"

Doesnt care if youre ambushed, doesnt care if you randomly encounter something that thinks you look funny... and you can narrow it down from there.

Ramza00
2007-03-19, 08:39 AM
At ECL 4, there isn't much you can do. Best thing I can recommend is this.

Race Illuminan
Feats: Improved Sigil Krau
Feats: Fiery Blast or Storm Blast
Prep the rest of your spell slots besides 1 with spells such as sleep, grease, glitterdust and similar spells that aren't damage. Prep 1 2nd lvl spell (which is 3rd lvl due to Improved Sigil Krau) with the matching element of your reserve feat.

Now you can do 3d6 fire burst (5 ft) to people within 30 feet, or you can do 3d6 line electricity damage to people within 20 feet. Use your other spell slots as applicable.

Retrain the Fiery Blast/Storm Blast Later. Improved Sigil Krau on the other hand is a "keeper" feat.

illyrus
2007-03-19, 09:14 AM
Okay, my local gang is convinced that wizards aren't appreciably more powerful than melee classes. And nothing I tell them changes their minds.
I think it's time to win D&D and teach them otherwise.
So, I come to veterans of the game and ask--
How do I make my wizard so full of epic win, that he outshines the entire damn party?
Most of our games are ECL 4, so I'll start there. From there, where do I take it?

So I skipped most of the 4 pages when it got into another class versus class debate just to ask a question. Are you just going to build a character and then tell about how great he is; maybe show them thru some test runs? Or are you going to intentionally ruin someone else's session/campaign by playing a cheesy wizard? I hope it's the former and not the latter.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying all or even most wizards are cheesy.

Jayabalard
2007-03-19, 09:30 AM
It sounds like the latter to me.

If so, I hope the DM pulls out Rule-0 as needed, without much regard to the OP having his "fun" at the rest of the group's expense.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-19, 09:39 AM
So I skipped most of the 4 pages when it got into another class versus class debate just to ask a question. Are you just going to build a character and then tell about how great he is; maybe show them thru some test runs? Or are you going to intentionally ruin someone else's session/campaign by playing a cheesy wizard? I hope it's the former and not the latter.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying all or even most wizards are cheesy.
1: No. I'm not going to "tell them how great" he is.
2: No.


It sounds like the latter to me.

If so, I hope the DM pulls out Rule-0 as needed, without much regard to the OP having his "fun" at the rest of the group's expense.
I love you too.

illyrus
2007-03-19, 09:44 AM
1: No. I'm not going to "tell them how great" he is.
2: No.


Then what third option will you be using to teach your gaming group otherwise?

kamikasei
2007-03-19, 09:54 AM
Then what third option will you be using to teach your gaming group otherwise?

I think his aim is to, without brokenness or cheese, play a wizard who will clearly and undeniably be the party's greatest asset.

Which is a laudable goal, if not taken to the extreme of making all the other characters worthless and denying them the spotlight, but pretty hard to pull off at ECL 4.

illyrus
2007-03-19, 09:58 AM
I think his aim is to, without brokenness or cheese, play a wizard who will clearly and undeniably be the party's greatest asset.

Which is a laudable goal, if not taken to the extreme of making all the other characters worthless and denying them the spotlight, but pretty hard to pull off at ECL 4.

Ah I see, when I read "How do I make my wizard so full of epic win, that he outshines the entire damn party?" that his goal was to intentionally deny them the spotlight. If he just plans to play in such a way that everyone is enjoying themselves then kudos to him, I just didn't get that from his first post or his reply which is why I was asking again to try to understand what he was trying to do.

Sir Giacomo
2007-03-19, 10:04 AM
Hi everyone,

just had to jump into this discussion, and for those who are interested, there is a similar discussion going on here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36333

Mainly that thread is about concrete stuff on fighter and cleric builds at high levels, and what drawbacks (if there are any) exist for casters (in particular clerics) to make up for any shortcomings of a fighter.

Now one of the caster drawbacks that I brought up is the vulnerability of magic to countermeasures, many non-magic, others equipment-related, and also many from spell sources. Overall I tend to agree with Variable Arcana that simply there is no foolproof protection in DD3.5 for casters, certainly there isn't any in core/SRD. (I do not know how celerity and stuff works, or the various time stop variants, probably going beyond core is simply to mind-spinning for me, although I love to use expansion books in my games).

Now, Emperor Tippy made excellent suggestions on where the true power of high-level wizards lie and I'd like to make some short comments on potential countermeasures vs each of the spells outlined.



Well heres a pretty standard general spell list..

9th
1: Mage’s Disjunction (learned twice)
This spell is actually a horrible mage's bane for the wizard's opponents, since it dispel all buffs of said wizard without a save and without SR, in a burst area, at close range. Equipment is likewise lost, but the wizard should quite easily save, as should a fighter/non-caster with some effort to get a will save of 20+ (boostable at leisure by friendly casters, bards etc. with morale boni/spell protections).

2: Timestop (learned twice)
No arguing here, probably the most powerful spell in the game. It likely allows you to always get the surprise round as a caster (as can a good dimension door or greater teleport), although not the initiative round. But you cannot affect anything in the time stop time, so it is good for buffs and area control spells. However, buffs: see above for disjunction (one such opponent's spell can take out 5+ of your buff spells, so he's ahead!).
Overall, if quickened, is also a good way to get out of an unforeseen/badlyturnedout fight and still remain in the area without the enemy knowing with greater invisibility (stay out of true seeing range of 120ft, though! And see invisibility will always locate you. Maybe a disguise self/seeming spell if in a city). But for that, the wizard needs to survive a round if he loses initiative or take the opponent out with a standard action in the surprise round (so one quickend spell and one spell).
One horrible countermeasure against attacking a foe is if that foe was likewise prepared (say, the dragon you wish to take out) and there is a simple programmed illusion. It takes a standard action to disbelieve (if you interact, which you cannot do in time stop).

3: Foresight (learned twice)
Is not enough to really protect you 100%. First, it only will prevent a surprise round and does not do much else (gives puny +2 boni, that will even go away if a rogue bluffs/feints you to get a sneak attack). Second, it costs you a greater extend rod to make it last long- and even 10 hours are not long enough, if you get attacked in your MMM (which you cannot foresee in that time!).

Overall, dominate monster with a likely DC of 34 with INT 36, spell focus, greater spell focus is quite tough offense, or use a heightened hideous laughter at the same DC to get a last joke...(courtesy greeknight). Plus, shades (simulating all conjuration spells at 80%) is greatly adding to flexibility.


8th
1: Mind Blank
One drawback is that morale boni won't affect you anymore, but it is a good buff (see, again, disjunction). However, contact other plane (cop) will still work against the wizard. Plus, against the hilarious thing that Dausuul pointed out above with a bard bluff at insane levels vs the caster it will not help. And remember that the cop you outlined only dealt with ambushes...and a bard bluffing the wizard is definitely not an ambush...(at least the non-violent part is not)

2: Moment of Prescience
A great spell, but the wording is quite clear: no bonus to initiative checks allowed. The problem is, a non-DEX-maxed-out caster (likely, given that your caster has INT 36) will often lose the initiative roll vs non-casters. Non-core, there are some feats that improve initiative further (which the caster has less feats to spare, although the divine casters get "sign"- a nice 1st level spell giving once +4 initiative- rather limited duration, though).
So the wizard better prepares to get his stuff done in the surprise round: like a domination/implosion/whatever and then quicken greater teleport away before getting hit by dimensional anchors. (now once again as a countermeasure, an opponent may have a contingency set to dimensional anchor an attacker).

3: Telekinetic Sphere
Now this one I do not quite get - it is very cool, mind you. But it allows a negating reflex save, plus it does not work against the heavy dragon of which that wizard is supposed to take out two per day. Telekinesis (especially if quickened) is way more powerful (take it for 7th level, I'd suggest).

4: Dimensional Lock (twice)
OK, this is maybe my big opportunity to learn about the relevance of this spell, but so far I do not see any. Dimensional anchors are great (especially if heightened or quickened so that they cannot be stopped by globes of invulnerability). The wizard needs to follow the lock up with a quickened force cage or at least quickened solid fog to make it work (and the enemy not simply walking out of it and then teleporting away). Now this is starting to use up quite a lot of high-level spell slots better used for other stuff at 8th level like the Polymorph Any Object (pao) Emperor Tippy suggested).
And I still se no big offense yet to take out opponents. So far it is very defensive, a bit too specialised for the most powerful spells of the wizard (althoug he could take out different stuff for that special dragon-hunting attacking day like polar ray, empowered with caster-level boosting items). Cool is using greater shadow evocation to simulate all 1-6th level evocations and be a part-time blaster. Plus, it can be used to cast contingency, saving that spell slot for other things.


7th
1: Teleport, Greater (three times)
No-brainer. Good to have with greater rod quicken.

3: Forcecage (twice)
Ah, the first more offensive spell. But the forcecages are easily countered by a 11,000 gp rod of cancellation which does not get spent when it is used vs wall of force/force cage (only if used vs items).
So I would not choose this spell. Power Word, Blind is much better. Great core spells are also plane shift and simulacrum to create a decoy for a paranoid caster :smallsmile:

5: Mage’s Magnificent Mansion (MMM)
Now this has already been said: the entry can be found/scryed/dispelled/disjuncted, leaving the wizard very vulnerable. So best not rely on it.
Even if a Mage's private Sanctum (need to list that under the 5th level slots in lieu of a teleport) is cast around it with permanency that likewise can be dispelled (without the wizard having a chance of knowing what is going on outside since he himself cannot scry into his private Sanctum - a classic own goal).
Probably the best tactics is to always change your location of entry with a MMM, so it is difficult for opponents to narrow it down. HOWEVER another time the horrible bard strikes: at 20th level, bards regularly know your caster's childhood nickname (it's even a core example) with their bardic knowledge, an ability which cannot be stopped by any wizard spells (short of a wish, maybe). So opponents asking the major bard of the country may know where to find the wizard's mmm entry (it would only be impossible if the wizard NEVER told anyone, not even in his sleep :smallsmile: . In that case, that would be quite a lonely person...with a whole dragon community angry with him as well, since he kills/intends to kill two of those creatures/week or day or whatever:smallsmile: ).


6th
1: Contingency

A great spell. But no 100% safety escape pod. As outlined above, contingencies are a tricky thing to set. "teleport when attacked" teleports the caster away when getting into a bar brawl/accidently hit/attacked by an angry rat. "conjure up wind wall when hit by arrows" does not help vs a demon gating in next to the wizard. Etc etc. Plus, the spell level is capped at lvl6).

2: Disintegrate
Ah - the first offensive spell! It should be heightened to get to level 9 (occupying a slot there) to get a higher DC.
However, the wizard will need something to boost up his chance to hit, since many opponents will have very high touch ACs.

3: Dispel Magic, Greater
Another must have. Caps out at +20, though, so other casters of lvl 20 boosted in the casting by ioun stones and what have you will be difficult to dispel/counter. Helps vs buffed opponents (zillas etc.), since you have a good chance to get rid of several spells at once.

4: True Seeing
Great. But: only has limited duration (better get an item for it), and it only extends to 120 ft (cf the great recent OOTS comic for the effect it has in a battle when you do not know which of the three opponents is the real one at 1000 ft range...:smallbiggrin: )

For the 5th and 6th slots, I would suggest eihter metamagicked stuff from lower levels, or research spells like legend lore.


5th
1: Cloudkill (twice)
Cloudkill is great, but also often greatly overrated as being able to trump all evocation/battle/Area of effect spells of that level or lower.
The point is, that quite a few creatures are immune to poison (or have buffed to be so, in particular at high levels). Additionally, it is quite easy to move out of the cloud, getting only affected once. So you will need to put solid fog around it or another wall and/or a quickened dimensional anchor. However, those in the cloud can simply fly out if impeded by dimensional anchor and a wall (even for non-casters it is easy with a celestial armour for 22k gold), or freedom of movement out if impeded by a solid fog (a bit more expensive to get, though). So the cloudkill really only works in confined spaces or with a combination of spells. And for that, you can nicely do a quickened (even with a metamagic rod) fireball and lightning ball in one round.

3: Wall of Force
The same goes for this one as for forcecage. But since it is bigger area, it can do more battefield control. A fellow player once used it to stop a whole cavalry charge (was quite devastating) since it is invisible.


4: Contact Other Planes (twice)
Here Emperor Tippy made a good point saying that an INT 36 caster should get the wording right. However, this still does not mean that the answers are 100% correct. In 1 out of 8 cases, the wizard is misinformed, possibly ending in his untimely demise if he relies too much on it. Likewise, a Cop done by an opponent could result in more confusion.
Handle with care! Plus: only learned twice per day will not give anything near warnings of impending dangers, great strategies vs opponents etc.

6: (Whatever you want. Perhaps Teleport. Or leave blank so you can fill it with only 15 minutes notice) Twice.

Great idea. At this level, it is highly useful to leave slots open for more flexibilty in a non-spontaneous caster. Will try to remember that, thanks!


4th
1: Stoneskin
2: Enveneration
3: Left blank to be filled as needed
4: Invisibility, Greater
5: Invisibility, Greater
6: Dimension Door
7: Dimension Door

3rd
1: Phantom Steed
2: Phantom Steed
3: Windwall
4: Ray of Exhaustion
5: Gaseous Form
6: Haste
7: Left blank to be filled as needed

2nd
1: Glitterdust
2: Glitterdust
3: Detect Thoughts
4: Detect Thoughts
5: Fill with whatever you feel like
6: Fill with whatever you feel like
7: Fill with whatever you feel like

1st
1: Ray of Enfeeblement
2: Grease
3: Fill with whatever
4: Fill with whatever
5: Fill with whatever
6: Fill with whatever
7: Fill with whatever
8: Fill with whatever

0 level spells can be filled with whatever.


OK, the lower level spells indicated are all very good, but not so powerful anymore to make that grand difference at high-level play (possibly reflecting more the strength of the character at low levels, which is OK with all the goodies of dim'door, greater invisbility, windwall (but beware: archer can simply walk through it/fly over it, plus still get manyshot!), phantom steed (beware its low hitpoints! Plus, a full round casting, which you may get around with shadow conjuration which only take a standard action and then can be quickened).

Now the ray spells are great against dragons (sure the suggestion is because of these). However, they are not without drawbacks:
- a simple globe of invulnerability counters them, so better have them heightened all the time (you may study your opponent nicely while within a time stop, though).
- they need to hit a touch AC, which is not always easy. My example fighter build in the thread linked above has something in the high 30s; monks can definitely go higher.
Which takes me to the following statement:



With that list you can deal with at least 2 fighters of pretty much any level and with most other things that would attack you. The numerous greater teleports can get you away from anything that you can't kill with what you have prepared. You come back the next day wit ha specialized list to deal with them. This list is also for a level 20 pure wizard using core only. If I could take archmage it would be different. The same with the spell compendium, PHB2, or Complete Mage being allowed.


I would be suprised if the wizard at lvl 20 would always win against two reaonably maxed fighters of the same level. The wizard would have surprise round, buff with quickened time stop, and then do ONE attack which the fighters will have formidable defenses against. Probably a domination attack has a 50% chance of getting through, getting the one fighter to attack the other (likely a winning strategy). However, dominate monster allows a new save each time you order the subject to do something which is against its nature (like, attacking a friend out of the blue, for example, at +2 to boot). So that is not that good. Implosion would be a strong attack, but that needs the wizard's concentration, so no more quickened spells besides (and it goes against the fighter's strong Fort saves).
Once the wizard is done with the attack, it is the fighters turn (at least one of them wins the initiative), meaning one of them gets to full attack with a composite longbow (something in the area of 160 damage hits the caster). Now, this may be partially countered by beforehand buffs like a protection from missiles (reducing some damage of that, at most 10/hit, but that may still be enough to take out a caster, in particular if there were slaying arrows shot in case of partially prepared fighters). Or, the caster likely has a contingency set to teleport away after he takes the first damage.

Overall, that fight would likely end in a draw (like many high-level encounters do if all opponents have access to teleports).

Add to this if the fighters happen to get the surprise round (say, because they managed to get to the MMM and have it dispelled). Then the caster is toast except on a well-worded contingency...:smallsmile:

Well, it all boils down to (including my individual comments on the spell ideas) that, yes, the wizard is mightly powerful at high levels, but he has no auto-win button. So the game should be challenging still for everyone.

Hope those comments are useful!

- Giacomo

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-19, 10:08 AM
I think his aim is to, without brokenness or cheese, play a wizard who will clearly and undeniably be the party's greatest asset.

Which is a laudable goal, if not taken to the extreme of making all the other characters worthless and denying them the spotlight, but pretty hard to pull off at ECL 4.
Yes, thank you. I'm probably going to avoid any arguments over cheese--I probably won't even take the polymorph spells.

I probably could (and should) have worded it better, but no, I'm not going to be trying to ruin a game.

illyrus
2007-03-19, 10:10 AM
Alright thank you for clarifying.

The_Werebear
2007-03-19, 10:27 AM
Alright thank you for clarifying.

Just letting you know, it is entirely possible to do what you are trying to without ruining everyone elses play experience. In the group I currently play with, I am a Barbarian/Fighter and my Girlfriend plays a Wizard 3/Fighter 1 focused on buff/debuff casting. We have absolutely destroyed several monsters, and after the battle, everyone always comments "wow, the barbarian hits for a lot. You won us the battle." I then promptly give credit to the Wizard (In and out of character) for casting Enlarge Person on myself and Glitterdust on the Opponent.

My group, which started off in the "Blastercasters are the best type of Wizards" is starting to shift opinion to "Crippling your opponent and controlling the battle is the best way to go." Even the DM is starting to realize this and shift his tactics.

So, my advice is don't give up. Just make a good buff/debuff wizard and quietly mention how much easier you made the battle. If they don't believe you, change tactics to blasting and let them see how much harder it is.

ravenkith
2007-03-19, 10:27 AM
If anybody still cares, offensively, at ecl 4 the 'I win' button is invisibility + Summon Swarm: Spiders.

Most things can't find you to hurt you, and most things will lack the capability to hurt the swarm.

Manyjaws (3rd level, spell compendium/complete arcane?) is also incredibly good, especially when combined with the telekinetic sphere line of spells.

Sir Giacomo
2007-03-19, 10:33 AM
Yes, thank you. I'm probably going to avoid any arguments over cheese--I probably won't even take the polymorph spells.

I probably could (and should) have worded it better, but no, I'm not going to be trying to ruin a game.

Ah, that one I left out (since Emperor Tippy also followed that road of moderation). However, I wonder- what is so extremely broken about the morphing spells that it is more broken than, say, time stop? Do not get me wrong: these spells are highly powerful and useful and very versatile. But are they really broken (meaning there are no effective countermeasures against them, guaranteeing a win, making other classes obsolete etc.)?

Let us consider it. All of them (excepting polymorph any object) have a limited duration. And all of them are dispellable/disjunctionable, which can have serious consequences if you get hit by a dispel and used a form to fly/dive underwater. Plus, if you turn into something with a wildly different anatomy and size, your equipment may turn partly non-functional (like rings if you turn into a fish, or bracers if you turn into a roc. Plus, many forms will no longer allow you to wield the key metamagic rods for the caster).
- Alter Self is incredibly strong for its low level, but like all morphing spells it will morph you, with many adverse social consequences if you choose the more cheesy creatures (in any case you would need to have knowledge of such a creater beforehand).
- Polymorph caps at 15HD. Now this could well mean that for high level play, you actually get BEHIND the others in the group/your opponents when you turn into a creature with lower physical stats, in particular in the DEX area (making you slower if you maxed out DEX before, as you should in case you want to win initiative). Since its duration is only min/lvl, it is certainly no auto-win.
Greenknight has posted in the thread I mentioned above a brilliant creature to turn into: the barbed devil (humanoid form) with excellent physical stats. However, again I bring up social issues, which you may wish to cover with a ring of chameleon or other disguise self effect (one of the great things about this disguising thing is that a true seeing would simply reveal the original form of the caster, and not the devil form).
- Polymorph any object can make a form like the barbed devil last on a permanent basis. May not be for everyone's taste, but certainly doable. Still, the dispel vulnerability remains, and you get the INT of that creature- may be a loss.
- Now on to the grand master of morphs, the shapechange. If you boost your caster level, you can get some quite awesome dragon forms...but still, there is something to consider: 1) the disjunctionability 2) the duration of 10min/lvl is not a permanent duration, but may be greater rod extended (if you can afford on top of all the other stuff), 3) a new passage has been added "...You can become just about anything you are familiar with...." (bold mine). Now that is already a bit more limiting the whole thing, having read somewhere about a great wyrm black dragon certainly does not constitute familiarity. A maxed out knowledge-arcane (or other knowledges of respective creature knowledge skills) may get you there, though.
And remember: if you become a great wyrm to combat a great wyrm, you essentially level your chances of beating the critter to 50%. Heightened ray spells seem a much better route here...

So the morphing group is powerful, yes. But an auto-win button? No. So Emperor Tippy should feel free to add them to his spell choices!:smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-19, 10:42 AM
What's wrong with them? They're unutterably more powerful than other spells of their level. Look what you gain by, say, turning the party's melee cleric into a War Troll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=6). As for Shapechange, try the (core) Choker, which grants two standard actions a round, for the wizard. Or just a Solar. 150' (good) fly speed, huge physical stats, +21 natural armor, DR, regeneration, its protective aura, SR...

Jayabalard
2007-03-19, 11:07 AM
I love you too.Hey, you're the one who's asking for advice to build a wizard in order to ruin everyone else's fun ("outshines the entire damn party"); if that's your intent, I just hope your DM handles it like they should.

ravenkith
2007-03-19, 11:20 AM
Oy vey.

RTFM.

First off, normally you don't get Shapechange until level 17 at the earliest.

Second, Polymorph by itself does not let you turn into outsiders.

Right, sure, Shapechange is busted. But by the time you're supposed to get it, you're only three levels from epic anyways.

Polymorph, while an incredibly useful spell, by itself, is not that bad.

Come on, the fact that it is limited to your hit dice (max 15) for starters, is a pretty big stumbling block. You can only change into things that have the same or less HD than you.

Follow that up with a specific list of types of forms you can take, and that helps control it. You cannot go undead, incorporeal or gaseous. You don't even get all of the abilities of the critter you're trying to change into.

Add in the fact that it can be dispelled in a heartbeat, and while a damn good spell, IJNTU.

Especially when you consider that the spell was originally designed to work only with the critters in the MMI.

MMII, III, IV? Weren't even published when polymorph was first printed up.

Excercise a little common bloody sense, and you can fix polymorph with just one change:

You have to be familiar with the thing you want to turn into.

See how simple that is? You want to turn into a Solar? First of all, you're not an outsider. Second, you've never seen one. What the hell's a solar?

War Troll? Uh, yeah sure. Ever met one? No? Too bad.

Want more controls? Limit it to specific books, like, say, the MMI.

Make it clear that the spell can't duplicate templates.

Whatever.

Polymorph is clearly powerful, it's true, but under the right circumstances, so is dimension door, or the resilient sphere, or assay resistance.

It's just that anyone with an MMI is smart enough to use polymorph, whereas the other spells take a little more ingenuity to maximize.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-19, 11:33 AM
Hey, you're the one who's asking for advice to build a wizard in order to ruin everyone else's fun ("outshines the entire damn party"); if that's your intent, I just hope your DM handles it like they should.
With respect, reread what I wrote later on.
And I'll stop there.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-19, 11:34 AM
Oy vey.

RTFM.

First off, normally you don't get Shapechange until level 17 at the earliest.

Second, Polymorph by itself does not let you turn into outsiders.

Right, sure, Shapechange is busted. But by the time you're supposed to get it, you're only three levels from epic anyways.
It's level 17! That means it doesn't matter how broken something is, anything goes! ...er, wait, no.


Polymorph, while an incredibly useful spell, by itself, is not that bad.C'mon. 7-HD familiars include, oh, the arms-having Treant with 30 base STR. That'll double a melee guy's effectiveness. 30 STR, huge NA, two slams, trample. Annis Hag, also 7 HD. 25 base STR, +10 NA.

Polymorph is pretty damn bad. It completely outclasses other spells of its level, and gets worse with each new monsters released.


Come on, the fact that it is limited to your hit dice (max 15) for starters, is a pretty big stumbling block. You can only change into things that have the same or less HD than you.Oh noes! That's still enough to get you or your friend 30 base STR and +13 Natural Armor, or other similar bonuses.


Follow that up with a specific list of types of forms you can take, and that helps control it. You cannot go undead, incorporeal or gaseous. You don't even get all of the abilities of the critter you're trying to change into.So, it's... not as broken as Shapechange. That... makes it okay?


Add in the fact that it can be dispelled in a heartbeat, and while a damn good spell, IJNTU.

Especially when you consider that the spell was originally designed to work only with the critters in the MMI.

MMII, III, IV? Weren't even published when polymorph was first printed up."It can be dispelled." Wow. Great. Like all other spells. That sure balances it in comparison to them. I sure know every single monster I meet spams dispels at my party.


Excercise a little common bloody sense, and you can fix polymorph with just one change:

You have to be familiar with the thing you want to turn into.

See how simple that is? You want to turn into a Solar? First of all, you're not an outsider. Second, you've never seen one. What the hell's a solar?

War Troll? Uh, yeah sure. Ever met one? No? Too bad.Boy, those knowledge checks sure come in handy! And scrying! And writing "totally saw a war troll once" into a background.


Want more controls? Limit it to specific books, like, say, the MMI.

Make it clear that the spell can't duplicate templates.

Whatever.Yes, nerfing the spell, um, nerfs it. True. We know it can't duplicate templates.


Polymorph is clearly powerful, it's true, but under the right circumstances, so is dimension door, or the resilient sphere, or assay resistance.

It's just that anyone with an MMI is smart enough to use polymorph, whereas the other spells take a little more ingenuity to maximize.Except that polymorph is vastly more powerful than these. A level 7 fighter has, what, 18 base strength? Whoop, 30. And here, have two slams, and a bunch of natural armor. What's that? You're more than twice as effective now? You're welcome! You're easily owning CR 7 enemies in melee? I guess the spell's a wee bit broken.

Polymorph is broken. It gives you bonuses that are limited only by how good a monster of your HD and one of the right types you can dig up. These bonuses are huge for the level. You can turn an ECL 7 character into a CR 8 Treant *who still has PC stats/class abilities/feats/gear*.

ravenkith
2007-03-19, 11:52 AM
Actually, no you can't.

When the guy changes size, his equipment doesn't. and if it doesn't fit, it falls off and lands at his feet (or gets absorbed and becomes nonfunctional).

Treant? Giant? Wartroll? If he was medium or smaller to begin with, his crap no longer fits.

If he changes more than two size categories, he can no longer wield his weapons.

Knowledge checks? Backgrounds? Yeah, as a competent DM, I'm more than happy to tell you that it doesn't work that way.

Sure, you might have glimpsed one. You might even have read about it in a book once.

But that doesn't make you 'familiar' with such a creature. You're going to have to get up close and personal (within 30ft?), and study the living thing itself (I don't know, for 5 minutes, maybe?) in order for it to count as familiar. Figure out how it moves, where all the appropriate bits go, etc.

Guess what? you want to write it into your back story that you saw a wartroll for 5 minutes once? Go right ahead. Congratulations, that character is dead, make a new one. 'Cos the only way a level one ween saw a war troll for five minutes straight was from the inside. Oh, so you don't want to do that? Ok. Great, I guess I don't have to wait for you to reroll.

Polymorph is only as cheese as you let it.

Oh and hey? Worst to worst, If an encounter isn't a challenge, the pcs get next to no XP...you know that, right?

Variable Arcana
2007-03-19, 11:53 AM
Tippy-

Excellent list. A few spells (like Greater Arcane Sight - especially good as the start of a Time-Stop sequence, to optimize your use of the rest of the rounds) that I'm surprised not to see...

The biggest problem is that combining cloudkill and forcecage to beat an assassin works exactly once. No assassin with an intelligence greater than, say, 6, will come after you without a rod of cancellation after that.

At that point (assuming it isn't disjoined), an infinitely reusable 11,000 gp magic item reduces your wizard to spells of level 6 and below with which to attack... (and at 11,000 gp a pop... a determined 20th level assassin would likely bring several...)

As you've basically said, facing such an attack your wizard will (quite reasonably) use greater teleport, and come back properly prepared tomorrow (another reason to want Greater Arcane Sight to use in the Time Stop before departing -- knowing exactly what to prepare for).

The main thing to keep in mind, though, is that a fight the wizard has to run away from for many hours is not a *tie* -- it's a loss. In D&D terms, the fighter gets XP's for your wizard. In real-world terms, he's made you cede the ground you were fighting over. Even if you come back the next day and whip his butt... that just ties the score.

Of course... a wizard with a large, large supply of high-level scrolls that he's scribed tucked in his Handy Haversack might be a bit more formidable...

Sir Giacomo
2007-03-19, 11:53 AM
What's wrong with them? They're unutterably more powerful than other spells of their level. Look what you gain by, say, turning the party's melee cleric into a War Troll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=6). As for Shapechange, try the (core) Choker, which grants two standard actions a round, for the wizard. Or just a Solar. 150' (good) fly speed, huge physical stats, +21 natural armor, DR, regeneration, its protective aura, SR...

OK, ravenkith already raised some points I wished to make (although the passage "familiar" should be covered by knowledge skills, and the whole Monster Manual is core and assumed to be the average campaign).

Now, BWL, your creature suggestions are mighty indeed. But, apart from all being subject to being dispelled, they have some drawbacks if you turn into them.

- war troll. Cool creature, can help greatly in combat (in particular good for healing as a wizard!), but with a DEX score of 16 base you likely fall behind in the all-important initiative curve (in particular if the gloves do not fit the large creature any more and inherent boni do not move over to the new form, not sure about the rules on this, though). If you cast the spell when you already won initiative/in combat it may be different, but then you may give up the good boni you have to AC/defenses from your robes and other equipment alongside the lower DEX as well.
- the choker is similarly affected by the low DEX and as a small aberration, probably nothing of your equipment will fit on it. It is a great thing to churn out three spells per round instead of two, though, but those spells should also be able to do something. Meaning: eventually you will have to take down an enemy's defenses, and a, say, +28 Will save is around for three attack spells. Ah, and I would argue that it is impossible to cast spells with somatic and vocal components in this form (need to do that stilled, silenced- burning two more feats).
- the solar is an impressive creature, but looking at the stats I was a bit disappointed for a level 22 creature - Spell Resistance at 32 is great for arcane casters, but clerics with their 5th level spell resistance spell get up to 36. And again, DEX is 20 (and as a large creature the DEX boosters may not work here), lower than some optimised DEX builds. Some evil creatures may now be able to target you better with good-targeting spells, and there is something which holds for all casters using morphing techniques excepting the divine casters (druid and animal domain clerics are able to cast shapechange, trickery clerics get polymorph any object):
The casters retain their BAB! Now this make these creatures with boost to physical stats only partially useful for an arcane caster in combat. Certainly he should not be tempted to go melee and thus abandon his otherwise formidable spell attacks.

The morphing route in my opinion is actually quite alluring in a negative way: it lures away from being a truly powerful caster to trying to emulate melee combatants like gish and non-casters. It may be different for clericzillas able to do divine power to get up their BAB, but for an arcane caster I'd not suggest it.
Having shapechange is great for versatility, but it's not an auto-win and even not broken.

- Giacomo

ravenkith
2007-03-19, 11:58 AM
Sorry G, shapechange is broken because it gives all of the qualities.

Wouldn't be nearly as bad without those.

But we're totally jacking this poor thread.

I still say Invisibilty + Summon swarm at ECL 4 FTW.

Ramza00
2007-03-19, 12:17 PM
About polymorph and items from the srd



Size And Magic Items

When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.
There may be rare exceptions, especially with racial specific items.
Armor and Weapon Sizes

Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being Small (01-30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31-90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91-100).
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm

Weapon and armor are the main exceptions, to the resizing of magic items, they don't resize. (Though there is a weapon enchantment that does, and if I recall a armor enchantment). Mage Robes do resize.

Remember you take penalties of using weapons that were made for medium size creatures as a large size creature.


Inappropriately Sized Weapons
A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll) for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#weaponArmorAndShieldProficienc y) with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htmSpells such as righteous might, enlarge person, and the expansion power specifically have clauses that their items resize, polymorph does not. If you cast enlarge person followed by polymorph a fighter can be a treant with not penalties. Of course you have limited rounds per battle, thus you may not have the right amount of time to cast all these buffs.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-19, 12:26 PM
Actually, no you can't.

When the guy changes size, his equipment doesn't. and if it doesn't fit, it falls off and lands at his feet (or gets absorbed and becomes nonfunctional).

Treant? Giant? Wartroll? If he was medium or smaller to begin with, his crap no longer fits.

If he changes more than two size categories, he can no longer wield his weapons.
Sorry, no.
"When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional."
The thing to keep in mind, here? Magic items resize.
And if some of them don't resize enough, like a weapon? Slap an Enlarge Person on there, first. Whoop, equipment's Large.


Knowledge checks? Backgrounds? Yeah, as a competent DM, I'm more than happy to tell you that it doesn't work that way.

Sure, you might have glimpsed one. You might even have read about it in a book once.

But that doesn't make you 'familiar' with such a creature. You're going to have to get up close and personal (within 30ft?), and study the living thing itself (I don't know, for 5 minutes, maybe?) in order for it to count as familiar. Figure out how it moves, where all the appropriate bits go, etc.

Guess what? you want to write it into your back story that you saw a wartroll for 5 minutes once? Go right ahead. Congratulations, that character is dead, make a new one. 'Cos the only way a level one ween saw a war troll for five minutes straight was from the inside. Oh, so you don't want to do that? Ok. Great, I guess I don't have to wait for you to reroll.First of all, the "familiar" thing is a house rule. It's basically saying "I get to veto whatever forms I like", which you could just do anyway.
Second of all, "familiar" is not defined. "Five minutes straight" is a completely made up time. A very good knowledge of something, however, is what knowledge checks are for. You know the monster's habits, weaknesses, what it looks like... but you can't turn into it because you didn't stare at it for five minutes?
Third of all, oh well. Scrying. Voila.


Polymorph is only as cheese as you let it.Yes, you can house rule Polymorph to be unreasonable. You can house rule anything to be more reasonable. That doesn't mean it's not broken. I can house rule that Natural Spell doesn't exist; that doesn't mean druids aren't teh uber.


Oh and hey? Worst to worst, If an encounter isn't a challenge, the pcs get next to no XP...you know that, right?Actually, XP is assigned by CR, not by how easy it *actually* was.


OK, ravenkith already raised some points I wished to make (although the passage "familiar" should be covered by knowledge skills, and the whole Monster Manual is core and assumed to be the average campaign).

Now, BWL, your creature suggestions are mighty indeed. But, apart from all being subject to being dispelled, they have some drawbacks if you turn into them.
We've covered dispellings in other discussions. Repeatedly. Anything that can dispel you could be incapacitating or killing you, instead, because it's a spellcaster. They're also not exactly just flying around all over the place in every fight. The vast majority of enemies can't do it.


- war troll. Cool creature, can help greatly in combat (in particular good for healing as a wizard!), but with a DEX score of 16 base you likely fall behind in the all-important initiative curve (in particular if the gloves do not fit the large creature any more and inherent boni do not move over to the new form, not sure about the rules on this, though). If you cast the spell when you already won initiative/in combat it may be different, but then you may give up the good boni you have to AC/defenses from your robes and other equipment alongside the lower DEX as well.16's plenty of dex for a strong fighter-type, which is whom you cast Polymorph on. And your items resize. Magic gloves expanding to Large? Noooo problem. The War Troll gives a higher Strength and Con, natural attacks, and the ridiculous Awesome Blow (welcome to dazeville, enemies).


- the choker is similarly affected by the low DEX and as a small aberration, probably nothing of your equipment will fit on it. It is a great thing to churn out three spells per round instead of two, though, but those spells should also be able to do something. Meaning: eventually you will have to take down an enemy's defenses, and a, say, +28 Will save is around for three attack spells. Ah, and I would argue that it is impossible to cast spells with somatic and vocal components in this form (need to do that stilled, silenced- burning two more feats).Check the picture of the Choker. It has the same magic item spaces, and they will resize to Small.
Why wouldn't you be able to cast spells in that form? That's completely made up. They can speak and they are capable of fine manipulation.


- the solar is an impressive creature, but looking at the stats I was a bit disappointed for a level 22 creature - Spell Resistance at 32 is great for arcane casters, but clerics with their 5th level spell resistance spell get up to 36. And again, DEX is 20 (and as a large creature the DEX boosters may not work here), lower than some optimised DEX builds. Some evil creatures may now be able to target you better with good-targeting spells, and there is something which holds for all casters using morphing techniques excepting the divine casters (druid and animal domain clerics are able to cast shapechange, trickery clerics get polymorph any object):
The casters retain their BAB! Now this make these creatures with boost to physical stats only partially useful for an arcane caster in combat. Certainly he should not be tempted to go melee and thus abandon his otherwise formidable spell attacks.You don't Solar-shapechange in order to go into melee, you do it for the DR, NA, regeneration, dragonlike fly speed (with a vastly better maneuverability). A base dex of 20 is almost certainly higher than what you have, too, as a caster.


The morphing route in my opinion is actually quite alluring in a negative way: it lures away from being a truly powerful caster to trying to emulate melee combatants like gish and non-casters. It may be different for clericzillas able to do divine power to get up their BAB, but for an arcane caster I'd not suggest it.
Having shapechange is great for versatility, but it's not an auto-win and even not broken.

- GiacomoChoker adds an extra standard action a round. That's not broken? Come on. But, fine, then: Efreeti. Grant your buddies componentless Wishes. Zodar (FF). Wish as a (Su--componentless!) ability once for each Zodar you turn into.
Nymph, as a sorcerer. CHA to AC and saves, whee!
Druids, as we know, play Force Dragon tetris.

You don't Polymorph yourself into a combat form (although you *can*, and you'll be scary if you do it right). You do it to the melee guy, or better yet the cleric or even the rogue (wyvern? six attacks a round plus CON poison).
You use Shapechange to get a sudden batch of various kinds of bonuses--and you can switch them out for others as a free action once/round.
That, or you snag some specific broken ability.

Edit: the increased STR more than covers the -2 AB penalty, and slap a Mage Armor on him at the beginning of the day and with that and the +13 NA, his AC's getting a hefty boost, too.

Variable Arcana
2007-03-19, 12:33 PM
Sir Giacomo-

You seem to have missed something.

The reason Polymorph is an incredibly broken spell is that with just a single spell (known for a sorcerer or prepared for a wizard) you can choose to affect yourself or any of your companions with any of a dozen very, very powerful transformations.

The flexibility is a big part of the power (and why in my campaigns the whole series of specific polymorph spells like Trollshape and Dragonshape (PHII), Primal Form and a dozen others (SC) replace the Alter Self, Polymorph, PAO and Shape Change spells).

Turning your party's ECL:7 fighter into an ECL:12 treant (losing only the treant's ability to animate trees -- at best a 1 LA power) is just ONE of MANY possible uses of the spell.

Sir Giacomo
2007-03-19, 12:49 PM
Hmmm- I admit I have been wrong here on the shapechange thing. The ability to get spell-like abilities which get you stuff like wish (the solar can also cast it, it's non-divine so it should work) for free is...quite powerful and makes shapechange the best of all spells.

The problem also is, everyone able to UMD a scroll of shapechange is bound to get it. Which then quickly reverts to an endless loop for all npcs and pcs in the campaign able to get that scroll and having been shapechanged at least once and wished for everything they needed, greatly exceeding the wealth per level guideline.

This way of shapechange does not make arcane casters the most powerful, it makes everyone the most powerful (don't know the time yet, probably the rogue or bard gets it even ahead of the wizard with their UMD skill).

And this automatically leads to a ban on shapechange to be used for such purposes (like other endless loop as the gate-wish-combo, or the endless farbricate masterwork combo causing inflation). Otherwise, the campagin is at an end. The rules are not fool-proof.

Still, even without the wish stuff, the most powerful spell, and able to emulate quite a few things. The other spell-like abilities of the solar are awesome, but once again, no auto-win.

- Giacomo

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-19, 12:54 PM
You don't get SLAs; my bad on the Efreeti. You do get (Su) abilities, which is bad enough. The Zodar has Wish as a (Su) ability. The Choker's Quickness is (Su). The Chronotyryn's ability to take two full round actions every round is (Su). Et cetera.

Sir Giacomo
2007-03-19, 01:01 PM
Check the picture of the Choker. It has the same magic item spaces, and they will resize to Small.
Why wouldn't you be able to cast spells in that form? That's completely made up. They can speak and they are capable of fine manipulation.


Sorry, just looked it up in the SRD. Did not believe an aberration would look similar to a humanoid, so that should work out. Does it have five fingers on its hand to fit the gloves of DEX, though?



You don't Solar-shapechange in order to go into melee, you do it for the DR, NA, regeneration, dragonlike fly speed (with a vastly better maneuverability). A base dex of 20 is almost certainly higher than what you have, too, as a caster.


Yep, you're right. The spell-like abilities are awesome. It won't get the divine spellcasting (since the deity does not acknowledge the caster and there are no spells prepared), but the spell-like abilities alone make it worthwhile. It greatly extends the ability to cast from lvl 17 for wizards, 18 for sorcerers and 17 for druids/animal sphere clerics (the latter even get arcane spells).



We've covered dispellings in other discussions. Repeatedly. Anything that can dispel you could be incapacitating or killing you, instead, because it's a spellcaster. They're also not exactly just flying around all over the place in every fight. The vast majority of enemies can't do it.


Now here I would object. Yes, we discussed it, although you may have missed out the most recent stuff on the power of mage's disjunction (instant automatic dispel). The point is that at such high levels (17-20), if the DM is doing his job right, the caster will run into plenty of creatures AND npcs able to dispel him, since magic is so omni-present at such levels.
So even the mighty shapechange CAN be beaten by a simple greater dispel, certainly by its 9th level brother, the mage's disjunction.

- Giacomo

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-19, 01:04 PM
Yeah, Disjunction. You run into that... how often? In my games, never, because neither the PCs nor the DM use it (Mutually Assured Destruction). Disjunction is one of those "broken" spells. Plus it has the problem of frying the shiny loot you want. It's also not exactly common anyway.
Few enemies can dispel. Balors get it as an SLA, sure (but have better things to do with their turns, most of the time), and NPC spellcasters can do it (but can do much worse). It's just not really feasible to throw a dispeller into every fight, or even every other fight, unless you're going up against a cabal of NPC wizards or something.

ravenkith
2007-03-19, 01:19 PM
Re: Polymorph/Shapechange etc.:

Yes, Shapechange is broken. Duh. It's a ninth level spell, the last step before epic (in which, if you recall, you can create spells that destroy worlds if you so wish). Another ninth level spell (Wish) will, if the DM doesn't adjudicate it correctly, break the game just as badly.

At the ninth level of spells, almost all of them can be difficult to deal with.

Polymorph? Not so much. It's nice, don't get me wrong, but easily countered if the DM just gets over himself and thinks things through.

1. Nothing says that all magical items resize. The books say that many do, but this does not normally cover armor and weapons.

One of your big arguments in favor of poly being broken is that you can give the fighter this, and that and the other.

Fine, but his platemail doesn't resize and neither does his greatsword.

So that natural armor replaces his armor as far as armor class is concerned, and that strength bonus is offset by the fact that he's taking negatives to hit with his weapons.

In addition, he's just changed sizes, so does he even fit in this corridor anymore? can he move about unimpeded? or is he denied his dex to armor class as well for trying to fit into a 5ft corridor when he's now a ten foot base critter?

2. The familiarity thing isn't a house rule, it's common sense. You cannot change into something if you do not know it exists. To suggest anything else is simply silly. Certainly, I suppose ranks in certain knowledges would help you to learn about new creatures.

What would the DCs be to be able to change into something? Probably varying based on the rarity/fame of the creature, I suppose.

Skill points are a limited resource: if someone wishes to spend points on such a skill, so be it, they ought to get some benefit. Don't forget, however, that different skills cover different kinds of monster, so that a Knowledge-nature roll would probably cover plants & animals, while knowledge-arcana would be required for magical beasts, and if you possess the ability to turn into outsiders, knowledge-the planes would govern those forms.

That's a lot of skill points for a 2+int char to spend.

In addition, if you want to lock it down tighter, you can require physical interaction with the critter, as I suggested earlier (This is actually a house rule). No, Scrying is not 'getting up close and personal', nor is it physical interaction.

brian c
2007-03-19, 01:21 PM
I use CoP. Boccob then tells me what I want to know. It doesn't require any non RAW deity help. Clerics and Paladins are free to talk to their deities but that will have no affect on me.


The wizard will win initiative. MoP arguably gives +20 to the check. If PHB2 is in play then clercity/greater clercity make initiative useless.


Say it with me: Celerity. Okay.

About chatting up Boccob: you think that Boccob cares about you just because you're a powerful caster? If you're in FR or a similar high-magic setting then you probably aren't the best spellcaster in your zip code and lvl17 wizards are a dime a dozen; this also makes it more likely that you'd meet a hostile wizard who can use the same spells and techniques as you do.

In general though, I think these "Wizards win at D&D" builds are against the spirit of the game, even if they are technically legal by RAW. As a DM, I wouldn't allow most of the stuff you're talking about. If the DM says "You're ambushed" and you start arguing with him (or her) "B-b-b-but I had MoP and I'm in my own plane and contingency and..." you're more likely to get killed by any DM I know than for them to say "Oh you're right, I forgot, you win at D&D. Battle over, adventure over, campaign over, D&D over, let's go play Mario or something instead"

Leush
2007-03-19, 01:34 PM
/\ Somebody sig him!

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-19, 01:38 PM
Say it with me: Celerity. Okay.

About chatting up Boccob: you think that Boccob cares about you just because you're a powerful caster? If you're in FR or a similar high-magic setting then you probably aren't the best spellcaster in your zip code and lvl17 wizards are a dime a dozen; this also makes it more likely that you'd meet a hostile wizard who can use the same spells and techniques as you do.

Assuming a greyhawk level of magic then yes, Boccob would care. You are one of one hundred or so casters of that power level on the whole plane. In settings where most everyone is a high level caster then yes, he wouldn't care much at all.


In general though, I think these "Wizards win at D&D" builds are against the spirit of the game, even if they are technically legal by RAW. As a DM, I wouldn't allow most of the stuff you're talking about. If the DM says "You're ambushed" and you start arguing with him (or her) "B-b-b-but I had MoP and I'm in my own plane and contingency and..." you're more likely to get killed by any DM I know than for them to say "Oh you're right, I forgot, you win at D&D. Battle over, adventure over, campaign over, D&D over, let's go play Mario or something instead"

If a DM chooses to ignore the RAW without any advance notice or posted house rules then he is an ass. If you can't improvise then you don't deserve to DM. Sure if you come up with pages of house rules to fix the numerous broken spells in D&D then the player should follow the rules or play in a different campaign. But if you just get annoyed that a player with a level 20 wizard made your whole campaign irrelevant because you were to stupid (and yes I mean stupid) to take into account what he was capable of then you shouldn't be DMing and the player has every right to tell you off to your face.

DMs should follow the stated rules just like the players. If the PCs make your planned quest useless then you tweak it and use it some other time. Just because you want a fighter to last 10 rounds against the PC's party at level 20 and have him as the BBEG doesn't mean that you should alter things when the level 20 wizard solos him without him getting to act.


My players surprise me all the time. Good for them.


If you don't want to deal with high level magic then house rule it out of existence before the game starts, not once you see what it can do. You should already know what it can do before you start the game. If a DM doesn't understand what high level magic can do then they should IM me or BWL or TLN or any of a dozen others who understand what it can do and have us answer their questions.



Oh and you rarely have dungeon crawls at high levels. It brakes immersion very easily when you have a dozen dungeons in a moth that have cr 20 challenges. If the players want a good old hack and slash adventure then you send them against a dragon or a balor. Most high level games are intrigue based for a reason.

illyrus
2007-03-19, 03:31 PM
Just letting you know, it is entirely possible to do what you are trying to without ruining everyone elses play experience...


As this was a reply with a quote to my post, I'll respond.

You're preaching to the choir here, I actually play a buff debuff wizard in our party's current campaign, the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. Enlarge person, ray of enfeeblement, fly, invis, haste, slow, heroism, displacement, blur, greater invis, enervation, polymorph (we stick to the MM1 and still it's scary effective), magic jar, wall of force, vampiric touch in the fighter's spell storing blade, and teleport tend to be my bread and butter spells. Past magic jar (which is used as mainly an assisted mass sucide on all but 1 guy then using that last guy as a trap finder) everything else directly benefits another PC.

I just wanted to make sure that the OP was going to do it without ruining everyone fun at a game that is meant to be enjoyed. He has cleared that up for me and so I'm happy. I wasn't in any way saying that it couldn't be done so you will receive no argument from me.

dorshe1
2007-03-19, 04:03 PM
Assuming a greyhawk level of magic then yes, Boccob would care. You are one of one hundred or so casters of that power level on the whole plane. In settings where most everyone is a high level caster then yes, he wouldn't care much at all.

Five reasons Boccob would give misleading information.

1) You ticked him off. You go to him, your deity, every week and ask him pointless questions. Oh, and you don't just 'ask' nicely, you use a magical spell that COMPELLS him (your deity) to give you information. Chances are his INT is just as high, or higher, than the wizard's. I'm sure he could find a way to mislead you if he so desired.

2) Your death serves a higher purpose to him than your continued existence. He's a God, so he makes those choices all day long.

3) He's got a side bet with another deity to see if his followers can kill you and they have both vowed that they are not allowed to interfere.

4) He is teaching you to learn self reliance. Honestly, if the God actually cared about your existence, do you think he'd make you cast a spell to get the information you needed? No, I think he'd take time out of his busy day and let you know about it.

5) He needs you dead, so your soul comes to his plane of existence so he can use you there, instead of on the prime material plane.

That is off the top of my head, I'm sure that a God could come up with their own reasons.

Incidentally enough, even though your assertion of 'someone with a 36 int could come up with a reasonably worded question' is laughable at best, since the deity will be smarter than the wizard. Or, if the wizard thinks he is smarter than his deity, he may get smited, and it won't be from a fighter.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-03-19, 04:06 PM
Five reasons Boccob would give misleading information.

1) You ticked him off. You go to him, your deity, every week and ask him pointless questions. Oh, and you don't just 'ask' nicely, you use a magical spell that COMPELLS him (your deity) to give you information. Chances are his INT is just as high, or higher, than the wizard's. I'm sure he could find a way to mislead you if he so desired.

2) Your death serves a higher purpose to him than your continued existence. He's a God, so he makes those choices all day long.

3) He's got a side bet with another deity to see if his followers can kill you and they have both vowed that they are not allowed to interfere.

4) He is teaching you to learn self reliance. Honestly, if the God actually cared about your existence, do you think he'd make you cast a spell to get the information you needed? No, I think he'd take time out of his busy day and let you know about it.

5) He needs you dead, so your soul comes to his plane of existence so he can use you there, instead of on the prime material plane.

That is off the top of my head, I'm sure that a God could come up with their own reasons.

Incidentally enough, even though your assertion of 'someone with a 36 int could come up with a reasonably worded question' is laughable at best, since the deity will be smarter than the wizard. Or, if the wizard thinks he is smarter than his deity, he may get smited, and it won't be from a fighter.

Ah yes, the "screw the player as the DM because the rules make him too powerfull" way out.

dorshe1
2007-03-19, 04:22 PM
Ah yes, the "screw the player as the DM because the rules make him too powerfull" way out.

Or the Gods aren't ATMs of information without their own objectives, feelings, or world views way out.

One of the two of those.

Ramza00
2007-03-19, 04:30 PM
Or the Gods aren't ATMs of information without their own objectives, feelings, or world views way out.

One of the two of those.
But the Gods are benevolent to the people with 15 int and only 5 lvls of cleric/wizards, yet they loathe the 17 lvl wizards with 18 base int (20 after racial)?

You make special rules for pcs, yet these rules do not apply to npcs. This in basic english is called gypping the player.

Jack Mann
2007-03-19, 05:00 PM
It doesn't matter how Boccob might feel in the eyes of the DM. By the rules, 88% of the time, he tells the wizard exactly what he wants to know. Only 9% of the time does he lie (and one percent makes something up).

If you want to change it, fine. Okay! Go ahead! But this is a house rule. It is not the way the game runs by default.

Woot Spitum
2007-03-19, 05:52 PM
Boo lying to players about divinations. Hooray finding ways to challenge them in spite of divinations!

KoDT69
2007-03-19, 06:34 PM
This is not directed to anyone in particular, so please don't get offended if my post disagrees with yours, but one thing to consider, as mentioned earlier about the interpretation of the questions asked from the CoP spells. What makes that any different than the interpretation of a wish spell? I have DM'ed many years and have yet to just let a player make a frivilous wish and just deliver what they want on a silver platter, nor have I allowed direct harrassment of the gods, direct or indirect to any one in particular from spamming divinations. Interpreting the divination questions exactly as stated by the player is NOT gimping the spell or any other kind of DM fiat, it's fair play. "I wish for the king's treasure" is just asking for trouble. I never just deny the players or get mad at divinations when done properly. I do tend to get irritated when on the 5th casting of CoP and I've answered 48 questions and the rest of the players are off in another room complaining that they're not having fun. A full volley of 20 questions can be fun for us all tho when it's done quickly.
The next thing to consider especially in regards to Boccob, he is known as "the Uncaring" for a reason. Even under a life of self-proclaimed servitude in his name, that doesn't make you special. That makes you a worshipper like any other. Even a cleric or paladin in his legion, just by making level 18, does not mean they did a darn thing on their way to that level that makes them deserving of any special treatment. Of course any campaign depending on the DM and player motivation, could be the opposite. Our mage could be the chosen one destined to rule all magicalness and has a 95% chance of divine intervention, even when not requested or needed. :smallsigh:
As far as the fighter versus wizard stuff, it's so overdone. BWL did a handy fix for the fighter, and I made an altered feat list along his same lines of thinking as well (of course changed a bit from my posting of them). One thing I've noticed many times is that BWL and Emperor Tippy both can come up with optimal tricks/strategies/combos/whatever for about every one of these debate type posts. I kinda wonder, do you 2 game together? I'd love to sit in on a session. :smallwink:
Since the dawn of 3rd edition, I got left out of the loop. Real life took me from the game table right before its release and I have only recently returned and started learning all the new stuff. I try to keep up tho. :smallbiggrin:

Variable Arcana
2007-03-19, 06:39 PM
Actually, Jack Mann, it doesn't say "tells the wizard exactly what he wants to know."

It says "You get a true, one-word answer. Questions that cannot be answered in this way are answered randomly." (footnote 2 in the table here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm))

The effect turns on what questions can be answered with a simple one-word answer.

This doesn't just mean that the question needs to be phrased as a yes-no question. If you cast CoP and ask "Is 'yes' an inaccurate answer to this question?" -- clearly this is not a question that can be answered with a simple yes or no, at least not accurately. In any universe with free will (that is to say, one in which the *players* and not the DM decides what the player characters do) there are many questions about the future which "cannot be answered in this way."

If a player casts this spell and asks the DM "What monster guards the such-and-such treasure?" -- he can play 20 questions and get some information. If he asks "What action will that other player take in the third round of combat?" then what exactly are you suggesting the DM should do?

1) Make up an answer, and then force the other player to take that action?
2) Make the other player determine his future action in advance?
3) Play the entire game forward in time and then replay it all over again, with the one player now knowing the answer, but forcing the other players not to change their actions except in response to his changes?
4) Rule that the greater god has become angry with the player and caused great rocks to fall down on his head?
5) Roll a random answer?

Edit:
Agreeing with KoDT69:
The next thing to consider especially in regards to Boccob, he is known as "the Uncaring" for a reason.
One of the few things the remarkably vague CoP spell description does say is this: "The powers reply in a language you understand, but they resent such contact and give only brief answers to your questions. (All questions are answered with “yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or some other one-word answer.)"

Question 1: "Will I be ambushed today?"
Boccob: "Maybe."
...
Question 43: "If I stay in my MMM all morning, will I be safer?"
Boccob: "Bored, now."

KoDT69
2007-03-19, 06:53 PM
Heh, that's why I use so many house rules in my campaigns. A lot of the RAW is broken in some way, shape, or form.

Ramza00
2007-03-19, 07:04 PM
Heh, that's why I use so many house rules in my campaigns. A lot of the RAW is broken in some way, shape, or form.
I have no problems with this, and the games I play is heavily houseruled. Just that we point out to our players these are houserules, and when I say what we do at our table on the boards I point out these are houserules and not the RAW :smallsmile:

dorshe1
2007-03-19, 08:30 PM
But the Gods are benevolent to the people with 15 int and only 5 lvls of cleric/wizards, yet they loathe the 17 lvl wizards with 18 base int (20 after racial)?

You make special rules for pcs, yet these rules do not apply to npcs. This in basic english is called gypping the player.

My NPCs don't contact the gods to find out what color shoelaces their opponents wear, so they don't tend to tick off the Gods, however, if one of them did that they would probably meet their end in the same way, especially if they relied too heavily on them.

Actually, my NPCs are usually hamstrung compared to the PCs in the games that I run. My only point is that it has been said that wizards can NEVER lose initiative and ALWAYS have a surprise round, therefore they can never be killed. The biggest reason that is given is the ability to case CoP. My arguements merely show that in a reasonably run game there could be situations that would arise with that spell that would allow them to be misled (not lied to, but misled) that would lead to a situation where another character could get initiative and thus kill the wizard.

Will every CoP yield misleading information? No. Most will give the wizard exactly what he needs to know, however, I only have to prove that they could be misled once to prove my point. And the success of the previous CoP castings will probably be the CAUSE of the surprise.

Example:

The first 100 times you cast it you get great information and are able to swat down the feeble attempts on your life.

Attempt 101 - You get misleading information. So you prep your spells differently, decide to spend a night in the country air, after all, the God said that you weren't going to get attacked and then.... BLAM!

Just rambling now I think.

Blackdrop
2007-03-19, 09:44 PM
Your a 36 Int wizard. You will be able to come up wit ha question in suitable legalese that gets around such problems.


A 36 Int Wizard, yes. A 36 Int PC, Not so much. A 36 Int would be smarter then a super genius. Brian van Hoose may think of one but...

Asking if someone will attack you wouldn't work to well, since that specifies a person or intelligent creature. Something would be a better bet since that would specify something like the Tarrasque and its massive 32 SR.

Now that I think about it how would you 20th level wizard contend with and army(5000+) beholders or will-o'-wisps, and a tarrasque. The will-O'-Wisps alone are immune to anything that you can throw at them with a SR.

And I've been thinking about Time Stop. It spell description states that most wizards use the spell for the summoning of allies. But wouldn't the allies fall down to normal time while your moving really quickly?

Ramza00
2007-03-19, 09:46 PM
someone[/U] will attack you wouldn't work to well, since that specifies a person or intelligent creature. Something would be a better bet since that would specify something like the Tarrasque and its massive 32 SR.


Well "something" can be as basic as a random tree branch blown by the wind trying to swap you in the face. Nonlethal damage of 1 can be an encounter if your DM wants it to be. :smallwink:

Blackdrop
2007-03-19, 09:50 PM
True, but someone still doesn't specify non-intelligent things.

Ramza00
2007-03-19, 10:17 PM
True, but someone still doesn't specify non-intelligent things.
Then oozes don't count :smallwink:

Blackdrop
2007-03-19, 10:19 PM
Exactly.

Wizard: Will someone attack me today?
CoP: No
Wizard: Sweet!

Walks away, ooze pops out of the ground and eat him.

Wizard: Damn!

Ramza00
2007-03-19, 10:34 PM
Exactly.

Wizard: Will someone attack me today?
CoP: No
Wizard: Sweet!

Walks away, ooze pops out of the ground and eat him.

Wizard: Damn!

A Mage Disjunction Living Spell no less :smallwink:

Marius
2007-03-20, 05:21 AM
And I've been thinking about Time Stop. It spell description states that most wizards use the spell for the summoning of allies. But wouldn't the allies fall down to normal time while your moving really quickly?

Yes, they fall down to normal but in the 5 rounds of a maximized time stop you can summon a lot of things but wizard despite the spell description don't usually use time stop to summon anything since most wizard don't even have summon spells.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-20, 05:26 AM
Now that I think about it how would you 20th level wizard contend with and army(5000+) beholders or will-o'-wisps, and a tarrasque. The will-O'-Wisps alone are immune to anything that you can throw at them with a SR.
5000+ beholders and a tarrasque.

Let me just check the CR on that.

marjan
2007-03-20, 05:42 AM
5000+ beholders and a tarrasque.

Let me just check the CR on that.

If I done it correctly it is CR 37 for 4096 beholders so I would guess it is CR 37-38 for the entire army.

Rigeld2
2007-03-20, 05:47 AM
according to http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm 120 CR 13 monsters is EL 27. I doubt 4096 beholders are EL 37.

marjan
2007-03-20, 05:55 AM
According to DMG doubling number of creatures of same CR increases CR by 2 so since 2^12 = 4096 it should mean that CR is 13 (beholder) + 2*12(number of times we doubled number of creatures). This is also not correct by the DMG because when you add enough creatures formula doesn't work all that well (they have example with 32 orcs).

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-20, 06:28 AM
If I done it correctly it is CR 37 for 4096 beholders so I would guess it is CR 37-38 for the entire army.

Great. The epic wizard has antimagic wards, and dominates the Tarrasque, which tears through beholders for him.

Tobrian
2007-03-20, 07:59 AM
How was this wizard blinded, and feebleminded? You can't assume conditions that can't actually arise without DM fiat.Is it possible for the wizard to be targeted by a blindness or feeblemind spell from a monster or enemy caster? Or are they just immune to these things because they're wizards?

Trust me, my own rogue/wizard/arcane-trickster with Iron Will feat was targeted by Feeblemind spells on several occasions, and although I had one of the highest WILL saves (second to the cleric) of the group, I blew the save twice: vegetable wizard. Luckily, the cleric had a Heal spell. Admittedly, the spells were being cast by some high-level aboleth or mindflayer sorcerer each time (I forgot which, I think it was an aboleth wizard), so the DC was horrible, but.... Wizard: *blubber blubber gaaah.....drool*
My character was so pissed off, he went and bought himself a ring of spell turning. The third time an enemy targeted a Feeblemind on him... Strike! Revenge is sweet. :smallamused:

As for Blindness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blindnessDeafness.htm), it requires a FORT save... something most wizards suck at, esp single-class casters.

Spells like Wither Limb are also nasty to use against PCs. The spell withers either both legs or both arms of the victim, permanently unless dispelled by a caster of higher level than the one who cursed the victim. And it needs a FORT save to negate.
I once had a cleric of Nerull use it against my group's sorcerer, who failed his save. The player got really nervous when I told him it was permanent. Suddenly he could only cast spells without gestures. Good thing he had a ring of invis on him. Withering the legs of a fighter or rogue would also be nasty.

The spell is originally from the WotC Libris Mortis The Book of Undead, I think, and the spell also turns up in the Spell Compendium, p.241. Just use your GM powers to turn it from an obscure domain spell into a normal necromantic clerical or arcane spell (limited to certain alignments or followers of certain evil deities, if you want), and hey presto! Personally, I'd allow Remove Curse or Heal instead of Dispel Magic to break the spell, but that's just me.

Edit:

Well "something" can be as basic as a random tree branch blown by the wind trying to swap you in the face. Nonlethal damage of 1 can be an encounter if your DM wants it to be. :smallwink:

But "attack" implies intent. A tree branch falling on your head doesn't have intent to harm. Unless someone else made it fall on you.

Sir Giacomo
2007-03-20, 09:41 AM
Hi again,

and the thread moves ever on :smallsmile: ...onto a great many fascinating details.

The original poster ExHunterEmerald wondered about a wizard's true power. And so far the thread has shown a division between those in support of seeing drawbacks in a wizard's power that make such a wizard entirely playable within the rules, and those who do not. For the latter group, I'd like to requote a comment by M0rt from the 2nd page of this thread, which somehow went by unnoticed. I think it is at the core of the question:



Just one simple question, Emperor Tippy:
you're the first to admit that on high levels wizards are obscenely powerful, yet you seem to be hapy about that and criticize most attempts to weaken them(mine for example). Am I missing something or assuming wrong thing?


In my view, you are missing nothing here, M0rt. You see, the logical conclusion of anything encountered in the game which leads to a great infinite loop, infinite powers, infinite cosmic mulligan, is to try and find stuff within the rules before resorting to drastic banning of stuff. Additionally, one gets often the impression of the wizard-power-autowin-button supporters, that they are trying to resist that anyhthing in the rules is there to stop it, because the spells just look so great, that
- as players, they just grab it and say: look, I'm winning the game. And fighters, btw, are just useless at high levels.
- or as DMs, they outright ban it without looking into the details.

And this, M0rt, also baffles me.

Let us take, once again, the spell who so many believe is the most broken in core: shapechange. Most wizard supporters will list incredible creatures that you can turn into making you super-powerful. However, they never stop to look at all the drawbacks such a spell has. Ravenkith made a great list with spoiler in post #136 further up of way how to find counterbalance for morphing and shapechanges that ARE ALREADY IN THE RULES.

The thing is, if I would love to play a wizard as in the Earthsea novels and short stories, it would be impossible to get the shapechange spell with DMs believing in the face value power of that spell, and that would be a great loss, imo.
However, when noticing, that turning into a choker (never heard of that thing before this thread) would give you unparalleled power of doing three spells per round, then some small research into the rules can get you already quite far in finding out that, yes, there are
1) Drawbacks of turning into such a creature (does not have human hands, plus see also ravenkith's general remark on resizing magical equipment), plus some hefty requirements to get to be "familiar" with it. Note that the core game does provide help for defining "familiar" with the wording of the teleport spell:
SRD: "Familiarity: “Very familiar” is a place where you have been very often and where you feel at home. “Studied carefully” is a place you know well, either because you can currently see it, you’ve been there often, or you have used other means (such as scrying) to study the place for at least one hour. “Seen casually” is a place that you have seen more than once but with which you are not very familiar. “Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic. "
So, the average of "familiar" is here seen as equal to "studied carefully". Which even assumes, you must have seen that creature for AN HOUR! Now, scrying helps, but - assuming you interpret the spell as being able to generally be able look for a type, not a spedific creature which is suggested by the spell- for this to work, you need to have knowledge of the relevant subject. Aberrations like a choker need knowledge-dungeoneering, something not every wizard has taken. The SRD also provides a guideline how to identify SINGLE PIECES OF INFORMATION of a monster with each one check:
SRD: "Check: Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).
In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.
For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information."
Now, the choker has three HD, so the basic DC is 13. But how many "pieces of useful information" constitute something like requirements for second hand knowledge of the scrying spell? One piece of information is "lives underground and is solitary". Now, that does not help getting anything to scry such a thing, since this applies to a great many other creatures. I would say, it is necessary to get about maybe 5 pieces of info to really pin down that creature's identity well enough for a scrying spell to work. That puts the DC already at 38! Now, a lvl 20 wizard with a maxed knowledge can do that, but for a HD 22 solar?...doubtful.
Plus, even in case your knowledge skill check is successful, the scry spell still gives a creature a +5 save vs the scrying. Not impressive, for the choker. But sure impressive for a wyrm dragon that you wish to turn into (who may notice the scrycing and may detest/block it), and for a solar (on another plane) you would even get a +10 save vs scrying- difficult to overcome even for an INT 36 wizard.
2) Ways to counter it for opponents, like disjunction. And guess what wizard power believers as BWL say to that? That Disjunction is broken, and should also be banned, or are too rare, anyhow. To this I would answer: if you ban such spells, of course other spells get out of hand (since you took away their couterbalancing power, showing how quickly you get into trouble by houseruling away from a system play-tested a zillion times). And even if you would ban disjunction, a caster (including bards!) of 13th level and above with access to greater dispel magic and the maximise feat can dispel everything a lvl 20 wizard boosted to lvl 22 spells can do (including all the buffs that are on him, at a medium range, at that!).


Similar procedures can be, with some effort, done for all the spells out there which appear "broken" at first glance. If somehow that caster is able to do something like an unlimited wish combination, then common sense should be applied banning that particular usage of the spell (not the spell altogether), since no game system (especially one trying to simulate high-level magic) can be 100% foolproof.
Plus, a quick logical conclusion what would happen if such infinite combos are possible in that campaign would lead to results likely not wanted by any player or DM:
- shapechange getting you wishes for free results in a campaign where there are quickly powers trying to obstruct the way for anyone to access to shapechange
- non-deity clerics without risk of ever angering their god quickly replacing all other beliefs and gods results in said clerics and churches, plus their gods, persecuting any non-deity cleric (the PHB states and exception to this rule for good clerics)
- casters making use of the fabricate spell and maxed skill/craft flooding the market with many masterwork items, making the economy crash regularly.

Hope this can give some guidelines on how to deal with powerful magic.

-Giacomo

kamikasei
2007-03-20, 09:51 AM
The original poster ExHunterEmerald wondered about a wizard's true power. And so far the thread has shown a division between those in support of seeing drawbacks in a wizard's power that make such a wizard entirely playable within the rules, and those who do not. For the latter group, I'd like to requote a comment by M0rt from the 2nd page of this thread, which somehow went by unnoticed. I think it is at the core of the question:

Acutally, Tippy did respond to this point.


Oh. I think that wizards should be obscenely powerful. Look through most fantasy literature, wizards are usually incredibly powerful.

But I would also love for there to be a balance at higher levels. The thing is not to nerf the wizard or other casters but to make the non casters more powerful. ToB made melee types viable at higher levels. BWL's fighter fix is very good at balancing fighters with wizards.

...

Oh yeah and I do think that many spells should be weakened. But com up with a weakened shapechange that keeps the same flavor. Or a weakened Timestop that keeps the same flavor. No one (to my knowledge) has done either.

Sir Giacomo
2007-03-20, 09:58 AM
Acutally, Tippy did respond to this point.

Oops - sorry, overlooked that! Hope also that Emperor Tippy forgives me, and that he can make some use of my post.

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2007-03-20, 11:08 AM
Few enemies can dispel. Balors get it as an SLA, sure (but have better things to do with their turns, most of the time), and NPC spellcasters can do it (but can do much worse). It's just not really feasible to throw a dispeller into every fight, or even every other fight, unless you're going up against a cabal of NPC wizards or something.

During a break I took a short time to look through the core monsters. Of CR 11-20, 12 out of 45 had access to greater dispel magic, 4 more to dispel magic (so roughly a third, not counting dragons, since the CR/agecategories/spellcasting was a bit bothersome to look up, but most should at least have dispel magic). Add to this the many npc/monsters/templates with classes (where 5 out of 11 are full casters with access to dispel/greater dispel), then you have something in the region of 30-40% of all creatures/encounters/combats with some dispelling ability on the opposite site. The higher the level, btw, the higher the probability that your enemies will have access to dispel.

Overall, this is hardly "few" as intended by the core rules, and you will not need to always resort to a cabal of NPC wizards...:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Ramza00
2007-03-20, 11:27 AM
During a break I took a short time to look through the core monsters. Of CR 11-20, 12 out of 45 had access to greater dispel magic, 4 more to dispel magic (so roughly a third, not counting dragons, since the CR/agecategories/spellcasting was a bit bothersome to look up, but most should at least have dispel magic). Add to this the many npc/monsters/templates with classes (where 5 out of 11 are full casters with access to dispel/greater dispel), then you have something in the region of 30-40% of all creatures/encounters/combats with some dispelling ability on the opposite site. The higher the level, btw, the higher the probability that your enemies will have access to dispel.

Overall, this is hardly "few" as intended by the core rules, and you will not need to always resort to a cabal of NPC wizards...:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Just because they have access to dispel and greater dispel doesn't mean they have the caster level to successfully dispel. (1d20+ your caster level, maximum +10/+20) vs 11 + the spell’s caster level. Thus there is a 50/50 chance you will dispel a spell if two things occur, your caster level is same as the spellcaster who cast the buff and your caster level is not above the dispel magic/greater dispel magic maximum. Add to that spellcaster caster level and spells known are the "main thing" for the class, thus they will invest in feats, spells, items, prcs that boost caster level. Thus even if the monster took arcane mastery he is not likely to dispel a buff the majority of the time.

What 1 beads of karma reduces your odds of dispeling from 50% to 30%. Ioun stone to 25%. Adept Spirit, Create Magic Tattoo, Death Kneel if Evil, Mystic Surge reduces it by 5% more each. If a bard is in the party Harmonic Chorus, Hymn of Praise (Good Divine casters), Infernal Threnody (Evil Divine Caster) all reduce it by 10% each. Spell Enhancer by 10% each. Divine Spell Power can reduce it by up to 20% each with a decent turn check

I can go on but I will just post the list instead (I proved my point)
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=615672

Ramza00
2007-03-20, 11:42 AM
Forgot to mention, so even if a monster can remove buffs with Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic it is often not in their best interest to do so (due to the low chance of it succeeding). That action can be better spent doing other things, other attacks, spell like abilities, etc.

Now a NPC enemy is a different case from a monster. He can build himself around dispeling just like the PC can.

Additionally the best way to get rid of buffs is two levels of spell thief. Use the steal spell effect, works every time you can get the sneak attack off (3.5 damage vs major buff I know what I would choose)+you get your normal attack.

For more ideas (as a DM) countering heavily buffed people go to this CO thread.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=648019

Sir Giacomo
2007-03-20, 11:45 AM
I can go on but I will just post the list instead (I proved my point)
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=615672


Thanks for the link plus the many ideas! However, what point exactly did you prove? Yes, player characters can put the odds in their favour. But the karma beads and other caster boost are cheap enough to assume in possession of npc casters and some monsters.Spells like magic tattoo can likewise be used by enemy spellcasters. Plus, there are evil bards possibly on the other side. And if at higher CR, there may be several lower-level casters on the monster side, who (if surprising the party) could open up with a volley of 3-4 greater dispel magics. Now that should take down quite a few defenses. Or, they may divide up, with two of them dispelling the buffs, and two readying their dispels as counterspells for anything the party casters may do..

I am not saying that the challenges will dispel everything, or even 50%, but enough to keep the game challenging for everyone until high levels.

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2007-03-20, 11:49 AM
For more ideas (as a DM) countering heavily buffed people go to this CO thread.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=648019

Ah, thanks a lot for that other thread, and the spellthief idea (my knowledge is quite limited when it comes to non-core).

Now about the "dispel magic should not be done most of the time since there are better attacks" argument: I would agree. However, if you see a morphed opponent who makes very big use out of his morphs (see the many great ideas of BWL for creatures), then that morph is likely the toughest threat/buff and should be taken out first. If the monster/opponent is alone and has to face such buffed party, it should more likely retreat if it sees no chance of winning. If it is not alone, dispelling can provide a great synergy (as it can for a party with casters!).

- Giacomo

Marius
2007-03-20, 12:10 PM
However, when noticing, that turning into a choker (never heard of that thing before this thread) would give you unparalleled power of doing three spells per round, then some small research into the rules can get you already quite far in finding out that, yes, there are

They are not in the rules. You somehow think that houseruling is in the rules but it's not. And it's ok to house rule but I don't get why you have such a hard time to accept that you have to house rule the game.



1) Drawbacks of turning into such a creature (does not have human hands, plus see also ravenkith's general remark on resizing magical equipment),

Size And Magic Items

When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.
There may be rare exceptions, especially with racial specific items.

So as you can see, magic items can be adjusted for almost any creature, and the choker has a general humanoid body so I don't see why he can wield magic items just as any other race. A choker could easily wear rings, amulets, bracers, cloaks, robes or headbands.
The only exception in the rules are specific racial items.




plus some hefty requirements to get to be "familiar" with it. Note that the core game does provide help for defining "familiar" with the wording of the teleport spell:
SRD: "Familiarity: “Very familiar” is a place where you have been very often and where you feel at home. “Studied carefully” is a place you know well, either because you can currently see it, you’ve been there often, or you have used other means (such as scrying) to study the place for at least one hour. “Seen casually” is a place that you have seen more than once but with which you are not very familiar. “Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic. "
So, the average of "familiar" is here seen as equal to "studied carefully". Which even assumes, you must have seen that creature for AN HOUR! Now, scrying helps, but - assuming you interpret the spell as being able to generally be able look for a type, not a spedific creature which is suggested by the spell- for this to work, you need to have knowledge of the relevant subject. Aberrations like a choker need knowledge-dungeoneering, something not every wizard has taken. The SRD also provides a guideline how to identify SINGLE PIECES OF INFORMATION of a monster with each one check:
SRD: "Check: Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).
In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.
For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information."
Now, the choker has three HD, so the basic DC is 13. But how many "pieces of useful information" constitute something like requirements for second hand knowledge of the scrying spell? One piece of information is "lives underground and is solitary". Now, that does not help getting anything to scry such a thing, since this applies to a great many other creatures. I would say, it is necessary to get about maybe 5 pieces of info to really pin down that creature's identity well enough for a scrying spell to work. That puts the DC already at 38! Now, a lvl 20 wizard with a maxed knowledge can do that, but for a HD 22 solar?...doubtful.
Plus, even in case your knowledge skill check is successful, the scry spell still gives a creature a +5 save vs the scrying. Not impressive, for the choker. But sure impressive for a wyrm dragon that you wish to turn into (who may notice the scrycing and may detest/block it), and for a solar (on another plane) you would even get a +10 save vs scrying- difficult to overcome even for an INT 36 wizard.

Everything you wrote is made up. Even if somehow it was ok to use the description of familiarity from another spell (that is a house rule), in the description of Shapechange says that you have to be "familiar" and in the description of teleport says that "VERY familiar" is a where you have been very often and that's VERY familiar, not just familiar so in the shapechange case you shouldn't need to be "very familiar" or "studied carefully" but just familiar.
Another house rule of yours is that you need 5 pieces of information to use scrying, actually in the description of "Scrying" says that you can use it even if you have NO knowledge at all as long as you have a connection.
Another point is that a wizard could easily travel to another plane and that even if he can't try scrying the same creature again he can try it with another of it's kind.
Also in the case of weak creatures like the choker a wizard could just find out where they are, go there, capure it, watch it, then dissect the poor creature and then shapechange to a choker and continue to do the same with every creature in his path.



2) Ways to counter it for opponents, like disjunction. And guess what wizard power believers as BWL say to that? That Disjunction is broken, and should also be banned, or are too rare, anyhow. To this I would answer: if you ban such spells, of course other spells get out of hand (since you took away their couterbalancing power, showing how quickly you get into trouble by houseruling away from a system play-tested a zillion times). And even if you would ban disjunction, a caster (including bards!) of 13th level and above with access to greater dispel magic and the maximise feat can dispel everything a lvl 20 wizard boosted to lvl 22 spells can do (including all the buffs that are on him, at a medium range, at that!).

Other spells won't be unbalanced since you banned or nerfed all of them. The system playtested a million times has a million mistakes, just look at "complete psionics" and it's not like it's their first book. Or even the first "psionics handbook". And again, disjunction doesn much more damage to the non-casters and than to casters AND while a DM can't use a casters with disjunction all the time since it's unlikely that every opponent in a campaign is a high level arcane casters the players can use it all the time since the party wizard is there all the time. They don't have to worry about loot since the DM have to follow the tables and gave them the money they should have anyway.
You should really read about what you write. You can't maximize a dispel or a greater dispel, read the feat description. You can use the heighten to make a low level spell act like a higher level spell but again it doesn't work on dispel or greater dispel since they work with caster level (so rogues and bards won't be good dispellers).



Similar procedures can be, with some effort, done for all the spells out there which appear "broken" at first glance. If somehow that caster is able to do something like an unlimited wish combination, then common sense should be applied banning that particular usage of the spell (not the spell altogether), since no game system (especially one trying to simulate high-level magic) can be 100% foolproof.
Plus, a quick logical conclusion what would happen if such infinite combos are possible in that campaign would lead to results likely not wanted by any player or DM:
- shapechange getting you wishes for free results in a campaign where there are quickly powers trying to obstruct the way for anyone to access to shapechange
- non-deity clerics without risk of ever angering their god quickly replacing all other beliefs and gods results in said clerics and churches, plus their gods, persecuting any non-deity cleric (the PHB states and exception to this rule for good clerics)
- casters making use of the fabricate spell and maxed skill/craft flooding the market with many masterwork items, making the economy crash regularly.


All house rules and I don't agree with the second one.

Ramza00
2007-03-20, 12:16 PM
I specifically said monster not npc caster:smallwink:

My point was even if 1/3rd of the cr10+ monster can dispel magic doesn't mean they will dispel your buffs in battle, the odds are in the players favor for even on equal footing there is a 50% chance it won't work and the chances of an actual footing even occurring is rather slim since anybody that reads the DMG/SRD knows of basic magic item boosters such as beads of karma and ioun stone. Add some splat books and an intelligent player and the odds reach effectively nil.

This changes with PRCs such as master specialist and such, but those prcs are for npcs and monsters with lots of class levels.

--- --- --- --- ---

If you want to build a "spellcaster buff nuker" this is how you do it.
Wizard 3/Master Specialist 6/IotSFV 10 followed by 4 more lvls of Master Specialist or 1-2 lvls of Archmage followed by 2 more lvls of MS.

Notable bits
Elven Spell Lore (+2 to dispel check), Arcane Thesis Greater Dispel Magic (+2 to Caster Level and reduce metamagic cost) Master Specialist bonus to dispelling, IotSFV bonus to dispeling abjurrations, Caster Level Boosting Items.

Now Cast Chain Spell Greater Dispel Magic. Should be a 6th lvl spell+2 due to Arcane Thesis. Can affect up to 20 buffs/items and it should pretty much go off. If you want to be cruel (as in no DM should do this) you can cast a quicken rod chain shatter/imbue familar with spell ability and watch the magic items of the party disapear. (Dm and players shouldn't do it for the same reason you don't use Mage Disjunction)

--- --- --- ---

There is also the suppression weapon enchantment

ravenkith
2007-03-20, 12:51 PM
@ Marius:

How can you turn into something you don't know exists?

How?

You can't. Period.

If you are not aware of something's existence, you cannot turn into it.


DM: "Ok Bob, it's your turn."
Bob: "Oh, urm yeah, I'm going to polymorph into a kelvezu."
DM: "Ok Bob, how does your character know what a kelvezu is? They don't come to the material plane much,"
Bob: "Well, it's a demon, and I'm a star elf, and I took the feat, so I can turn into outsiders,"
DM: "Yes Bob, you have that ability. But your character doesn't know what a kelvezu is. He can't turn into it,"
Bob: "What are you talking about? My knowledge check is high enough. I can roll a forty easy,"
DM: "I'm sure you can Bob. But kelvezu do not come to the material plane unless gated in by powerful magicians, and such wizards are not the type to share what they learn, so it's just not possible for you to have even heard about a kelvezu, let alone turn into one."
Bob: "Alright, I'll turn into a dragon,"
DM: Ok, Bob, but keep in mind that you're going from small, as a halfling, to large, as a dragon. Your belt wont fit you, and since it's not magical, it wont resize. As such, it, and all the items on it, as wells as your clothes and backpack, will meld into you and become nonfunctional, as the per the spell,"
Bob: "I know, I know!"
<a couple of rounds later>
DM: "Ok Bob, Frank just stabilized the paladin at -9, and the bad guy looks winded, but you've been having trouble hitting him because he's got some kind of magic shield and armor spells on. He's about sixty feet away, and you can't take another hit after the first one. What are you going to do?"
Bob: "I'm going to cast dispel fireball on that guy. Even if he saves for half, it should finish him."
DM: "Sorry, no."
Bob: "What? Why?"
DM:" Well bob, your spell component pouch, last I checked, was attached to your belt so you can access it easily,"
Bob: "Yeah, so?"
DM: "Well, when you polymorphed, it melded with you...and became non-functional,"
Bob: "Sunnuva!"

hewhosaysfish
2007-03-20, 12:58 PM
Let us suppose, for the sake of arguement if nothing else, that there is a combination of spells and precautions and contingencies and divinations such that a wizard can be invincible.
If anything is planning to attack him, he teleports into its kitchen and Force Cage/Cloudkills it while it's eating its cornflakes. If he randomly stumbles across anything, he always, always goes first and either annihilates it in the first round with his time stopping madness or vanishes to his pirvate demi-plane to return six seconds later and wipe it out. And no-one can ever, ever track him to his hidey-hole, or even get there, to surprise him while he's sleeping. Oh, and he's permanently polymorphed into the Questing Beast.

Well done to anyone who can find this combo. We salute your extraordinary knowledge of splatbook spell-lists and your forward-planning. you are truly a great wizard.

But is he a great player? Consider what happens to the game now:

1) The GM nerfs some of the spells used so that he has actually has a chance of touching this wizard. The wizard played feels a little victimised by this and, apparently, the GM is a very bad GM for breaking RAW just to smack this one player down. The player appeals to the European court of Human Rights to get the decision overturned.
2) The GM homebrews a new monster with an unprecedented ability/spell that can actually touch this wizard. Functionally the same as 1, with an increased chance of the wizards companions becoming collateral damage.
3) Each session is reduced to the GM reading through MM XIV and the wizard player going "Dead, next one... dead, next one... dead, next one..." over and over. Since the other two options are the result of bad GMing this must, by process of elimination, be the correct way for the GM to respond.

Does this seem right to anyone else?

Ramza00
2007-03-20, 01:02 PM
Does this seem right to anyone else?
You are confusing two different things, whether its morally/game wise okay and whether the wizard can do it. Those are two different arguements, just because (as a player who is outside the system an understands the rules) you believe wizards can be like gods, doesn't mean you play wizards as gods.

It is similar to how I can make a legal justification to do X, just because I can doesn't mean it is wise to do X.

kamikasei
2007-03-20, 01:06 PM
DM: "Yes Bob, you have that ability. But your character doesn't know what a kelvezu is. He can't turn into it,"
Bob: "What are you talking about? My knowledge check is high enough. I can roll a forty easy,"
DM: "I'm sure you can Bob. But kelvezu do not come to the material plane unless gated in by powerful magicians, and such wizards are not the type to share what they learn, so it's just not possible for you to have even heard about a kelvezu, let alone turn into one."

Also known as:

Bob: "I play my character as having access to miscellaneous knowledge in a field, as represented by this skill rank, in which I have made a mechanical investment."
DM: "I don't want you to do that, so you can't. The fact that that knowledge skill is specifically there to represent knowing exactly the sort of thing you're claiming to know is irrelevant, because I, by fiat, deny you that knowledge. Though you've built your character intending for him to have this capability, I obviously didn't feel the need to tell you in advance you'd be denied it as a house rule."

What's that knowledge skill there for, if the DM can simply decide things are unknowable (despite, based on Bob's claim, having an achievable DC)?

ravenkith
2007-03-20, 01:08 PM
Alternatively, a dragon who learned anti magic field is going to eat your little quester for lunch.

As to the DCs: the rules of knowledge checks specifically allows the DM to set the DC, suggesting 10 for easy, 20 for hard and 30 for really tough, with a guideline for establishing the difficulties. See below for the SRD text for the knowledge skills:

Check Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).
In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.
For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.
Action

Usually none. In most cases, making a Knowledge check doesn’t take an action—you simply know the answer or you don’t.
Try Again

No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place.

Please note that this, as written simply allows you to identify monsters you encounter, and recall useful pieces of information on how to kill them.

If you have not encountered the monster, these skills, as written, do nothing for you.

Many players posit that 40 is the highest DC possible, since this is the highest number associated with any given skill, and work towards being able to beat such a DC on a regular basis as part of optimization.

In actuality, there is no upper limit on DCs. Especially since the epic level handbook came out.

So your whole "Knowledge skills, nyah nyah nyah" is a frickin generous house rule.

One that is probably a very good one, mind, but nonetheless, still one of those 'house rules' some of you folk seem so quick to dismiss.

My initial point still stands: If your character doesn't even know the name of the creature that you, as a player, found in the monster manual and want to abuse, it is simply impossible for him to become the critter in question.

I'll say it again in case you missed it earlier in my post.

ANTIMAGIC FIELD + DRAGON = NO POLYMORPH/SHAPECHANGE/high level spell abuse.

Mind, now, I'm talking about people who are abusing it, by relying on it to solve their every problem.

Of course, the correct response to an antimagic field is distance & telekinetic thrusts, but that's a whole nother, long, drawn out battle...I mean issue...

Face it people: you don't have to go insane with the nerf-stick to blunt the fangs of the polymorph/shapechange beast, nor any other high-level spell. You just have to think things through.

If a wizard player really gets your goat, simply throw an initiate of mystra mystic theurge at him in a spell duel.

That said, wizards are supposed to be insanely powerful at high levels.

There is a built in power curve for all of the core classes, with fighters dominating the low levels, but sucking at high, wizards sucking at low levels and owning everything in sight at high, and clerics & druids dominating the middle levels, while the other classes are gnerally more or less playable at all levels (with the exception of bard, but don't get me started).

If you can't handle players with that much power, don't go past level 11. Because it's those 6th level spells that really start giving DMs trouble.

If you want people to have the same amount of power, and for everyone to be on a level playing field, and for them no to have too much power, well the answer is simple.

Force your players to roll up some monk 20s.

Ramza00
2007-03-20, 01:08 PM
ravenklith talking about monsters and polymorphYou are skipping a step on polymorph knowlege (but good job on the spell component part) The druids in the background are laughing for they don't have that problem with wildshape, who needs bat dung to make booms?

Knowledge check means you have read about the monsters in some book, passing conversation, whatever. It is reasonable to assume that if the monster is common that a knowledge check will procur you the common location where said monsters can be found (works better with nonintelligent monsters). Such as the X desert.

It is now reasonable to say such a high level wizard can do an expedition, either teleporting to the area to find such monsters (why do I feel like making analogies to the 19th/20th century europe and adventures to africa) or they can scry and hope they see such monsters via scrying such lands.

In the end this above thing forces the player to communicate their plans to the DM before using such a spell, fostering player/dm communication and giving the DM an oppurtunity to say no. If the DM is being unreasonable the player can argue that, but in the end it boils down to two opposing things DM rule 0 vs how much fun the group is having (if the DM is being an ass fun may be removed from the game)

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-20, 01:17 PM
Wizard's Backstory: "When I was a little boy my grandpappy, Mr. Wizardo The Magnificent, showed me all the neat little monsters that he had met or heard about in his adventuring days and even summoned some of them."

Bob; Suck it Mr. DM. My character has the knowledge ranks to know about that specific monster but since you are deciding to houserule in the middle of a campaign because you can't plan in advance then my backstory covers it just fine. You already approved the backstory so ta. I'm now a choker.


I have no problem with a DM creating housrules to "fix" magic before a campaign starts. I may disagree with their rule but so long as its known before you start the campaign its fine. Those are the rules.

The problem arises when the DM decides to change the rules after the game has already started. Imagine the rules are like the laws of physics. These rules can be whatever the DM wants and they are created before the game starts. But once it starts those rules can't be broken by either the players or the DM.

hewhosaysfish
2007-03-20, 01:21 PM
You are confusing two different things, whether its morally/game wise okay and whether the wizard can do it. Those are two different arguements, just because (as a player who is outside the system an understands the rules) you believe wizards can be like gods, doesn't mean you play wizards as gods.

It is similar to how I can make a legal justification to do X, just because I can doesn't mean it is wise to do X.

Yes, there are two arguements. I spoke entirely about the first and completely ignored the second. No confusion.

EDIT:
So, Tippy, if a player spots some loophole the GM didn't, he is supremely entitled to go "Aahahahahaha!!!!!!! My character is invulnerable now and you can't do anything about it! Aahahahaha!" and promptly destroy everything the GM throws at him while the other players sit around picking each-others noses (or worse, copying his little trick so we have a whole party of them)?
And the GM can't do anything to correct his oversight or prevent the player from physically eating his DMG or he's "stupid" and "shouldn't be DMing and the player should tell you right to your face"?

What would you do if one of your players did manage to slip a Pun-Pun under your radar? Continue to play with 3/4 normal characters in the party and one of unchallengable might? Scrap the entire campaign you've been playing for months and start everything again? Or are you sufficiently confident in the combined might of your private legal team and you own encyclopedic knowledge that no player will ever find a permutation of the rules which you yourself have not seen and countered first, possibly by asking Boccob,

Ramza00
2007-03-20, 01:25 PM
Yes, there are two arguements. I spoke entirely about the first and completely ignored the second. No confusion.

Well how you phrased your comments their is an implied assumption that anybody is arguing wizards can do this doesn't mean they break out all the bells, whistles, and the cutting board to start slicing the cheese.

Just because people speak at length wizards can do this, that, and everything else doesn't mean they believe they should be played in such a way. Maybe they believe that the knowledge of why you shouldn't do that is so basic that they don't spend time talking about it. Now explaining how you can make wizards like gods is more complicated and thus takes more of their speaking time.

hewhosaysfish
2007-03-20, 01:42 PM
Just because people speak at length wizards can do this, that, and everything else doesn't mean they believe they should be played in such a way.

Have you seen some of the stuff Tippy (and to a lesser extent Bears) has been saying?
To paraphrase: "If you can do it by the rules, you have every moral right to do so and if the GM turns around and says "No. Just... no" then they are stupid and sucky GMs and ethnocentric bitches oppressing your culture, regardless of their reasons for saying it."

EDIT
Looking back at Bears' posts, he hasn't really said anything like that... I just clocked that he was in the "Wizards are like gods!" camp and tarred him with the same brush as Tippy. Sorry, Bears.

Jayabalard
2007-03-20, 01:47 PM
According to DMG doubling number of creatures of same CR increases CR by 2 so since 2^12 = 4096 it should mean that CR is 13 (beholder) + 2*12(number of times we doubled number of creatures). This is also not correct by the DMG because when you add enough creatures formula doesn't work all that well (they have example with 32 orcs).

hmmm.... when you double something that has already been doubled, do you change the multiplier to x3 instead?

that would make for a more sane calculation with high numbers of creatures.

The_Werebear
2007-03-20, 01:56 PM
Have you seen some of the stuff Tippy (and to a lesser extent Bears) has been saying?
To paraphrase: "If you can do it by the rules, you have every moral right to do so and if the GM turns around and says "No. Just... no" then they are stupid and sucky GMs and ethnocentric bitches oppressing your culture, regardless of their reasons for saying it."

I think Tippy is more refering to active "GM trying to screw you for using a legal tactic rather than saying 'this tactic is cheesy, please desist in the interest of fairness to the other players.'"

Jayabalard
2007-03-20, 01:59 PM
um, by RAW the GM has the right to change any rule, or veto anything a player tries to pull regardless of their rules lawyering....

Besides, having someone talk about a creature and even having seen the creature isn't quite the same thing as knowing enough about them to actually change into them and gain all of their abilities; you might know their shape, but not their nature.

I haven't would up in a situation with anyone trying to use shape change, but if I do I'm probably going to require them to do substantial research to be familiar enough to do more than take the shape of a creature; probably I'll several levels of familiarity, where the first allows the player to take on the appearance/shape but not gain anything else and the last finishes with all of the abilities that polymorph would normally give. On top of that I may toss on an additional penalty: the shape that we wear tends to dominate your thinking and being after a time; it's a common theme in fantasy as to why wizards might not use shape change often or at all.

of course, that's a different thread....

Ramza00
2007-03-20, 02:01 PM
Have you seen some of the stuff Tippy (and to a lesser extent Bears) has been saying?
To paraphrase: "If you can do it by the rules, you have every moral right to do so and if the GM turns around and says "No. Just... no" then they are stupid and sucky GMs and ethnocentric bitches oppressing your culture, regardless of their reasons for saying it."

EDIT
Looking back at Bears' posts, he hasn't really said anything like that... I just clocked that he was in the "Wizards are like gods!" camp and tarred him with the same brush as Tippy. Sorry, Bears.

Disagree about some words.
Moral Right is different than the Right as a Player. Moral Right implies not what is your positive/negative rights as a person but instead isn't a right at all it is what is best for the group. It is the communal interest (not right though). Damn I am starting to sound like political theory class :smallfrown:

The big problem Tippy has is that the DM doesn't communicate to the player before, no he just says no and in Tippy's mind doesn't have a good reason. Noticed I said Tippy's mind, everybody level of what is good reason is by definition arbitrary.

I think Tippy's biggest want is for the DM to work with the player, communicate why he feels such a way, and give the player a heads up so Tippy doesn't waste all this time and emotional investment perfecting his character only to get a door slammed in his face. Now Tippy is far more vehement, outrage, frustrated than I would be as a player, but everybody is different.

Tippy has said in multiple posts he is willing to be reasonable, he just has a different opinion of what reasonable is. His suggestions on PC DM relations while may not be what I consider "absolutes" are guidelines and he does list many things a DM should avoid.

So even if you disagree with him vehemently he still makes good points.

The_Werebear
2007-03-20, 02:01 PM
um, by RAW the GM has the right by the rules to change any rule, or veto anything...

It never hurts to be polite.

And to ask them to desist before trying to screw them to make a point.

Ramza00
2007-03-20, 02:03 PM
um, by RAW the GM has the right by the rules to change any rule, or veto anything...

And by RAW the players can always play a different game or tell the DM to shove it if the DM is an ass. Exccessive DM rule 0 is always balanced against this opposing facet.

Real games should occur in between these two extremes.

hewhosaysfish
2007-03-20, 02:13 PM
I think Tippy is more refering to active "GM trying to screw you for using a legal tactic rather than saying 'this tactic is cheesy, please desist in the interest of fairness to the other players.'"

That's fair enough.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-20, 02:40 PM
EDIT:
So, Tippy, if a player spots some loophole the GM didn't, he is supremely entitled to go "Aahahahahaha!!!!!!! My character is invulnerable now and you can't do anything about it! Aahahahaha!" and promptly destroy everything the GM throws at him while the other players sit around picking each-others noses (or worse, copying his little trick so we have a whole party of them)?
No. That player is an ass. If he won't stop then you say fine, good day. Your out of the campaign. Or you just kill him. Pelor decided that he didn't like a future action of yours as it woudl mess up his long range plans in some way so he uses Alter Reality to kill you.

I'm fine with that. The problem is a DM just going "No, you can't use Shapechange to change into X because I never realized that it could do that before and I don't want you having that power".

He is fine to say to the player "Hey can you not use that ability any more? Its kinda broken and I never realized it could do that. Perhaps you could replace it with X?"

And if the specific broken combination took 15 or so levels of a carefully planned idea to bring about then the DM should just live with it and not allow it in any future games.



And the GM can't do anything to correct his oversight or prevent the player from physically eating his DMG or he's "stupid" and "shouldn't be DMing and the player should tell you right to your face"?
The DM should just learn to compensate. Anything the player can do the DM can do better. I know lots of DMs who don't ban spells like Disjunction but if they are used more than once or twice the DM will start using them. MAD kinda.


What would you do if one of your players did manage to slip a Pun-Pun under your radar? Continue to play with 3/4 normal characters in the party and one of unchallengable might? Scrap the entire campaign you've been playing for months and start everything again? Or are you sufficiently confident in the combined might of your private legal team and you own encyclopedic knowledge that no player will ever find a permutation of the rules which you yourself have not seen and countered first, possibly by asking Boccob,

I would say Good for you. I never noticed that before. Build another character 3 levels higher than the rest of the party because the old one is now the personal play thing of X.

And if they won't live with that then you say "See Yah. Leave."


Have you seen some of the stuff Tippy (and to a lesser extent Bears) has been saying?
To paraphrase: "If you can do it by the rules, you have every moral right to do so and if the GM turns around and says "No. Just... no" then they are stupid and sucky GMs and ethnocentric bitches oppressing your culture, regardless of their reasons for saying it."
Haha. Way to create random stuff. This whole time I have been arguing what you CAN do in D&D. Not what you SHOULD do.

My problem is with people who don't understand and won't accept what you CAN do. We get a "Wizards aren't overpowered" or "Fighters are good" thread every 2 weeks or so. If you want to maintain that position I will bring out all the RAW cheese and crush your position easily. And when you say well I use XXX houserule so that doesn't happen I will tell you thats great but it doesn't belong in a RAW debate.


EDIT
Looking back at Bears' posts, he hasn't really said anything like that... I just clocked that he was in the "Wizards are like gods!" camp and tarred him with the same brush as Tippy. Sorry, Bears.

Play with Bears or Me sometime. Neither of us uses 99% of the broken stuff we can do.


um, by RAW the GM has the right to change any rule, or veto anything a player tries to pull regardless of their rules lawyering....
Sure. And it doesn't belong in a RAW debate at all ever. The DM should also refrain from changing the rules after the game has started.

How would you like it if I decided one day that fighters got d4 HD's instead of d10's and you were a level 20 fighter?


Besides, having someone talk about a creature and even having seen the creature isn't quite the same thing as knowing enough about them to actually change into them and gain all of their abilities; you might know their shape, but not their nature.
RAW its covered by knowledge and if not then you just backstory it in.

If a DM wants to Rule 0 something then I'm fine with it. He just should call it what it is. If before a game starts the DM wants to say "Shapechange doesn't exist or works like X" then I have no problem with it. But if the DM says "Shapechange doesn't work in this instance because of X or requires X" and then gets pissed when the player achieves X then the DM is an ass.

Rule 0 is fine. Just call it Rule 0. Never say the rules don't work like X or X isn't allowed under the rules if you don't want something to happen. You appear to be an idiot when the player proves you wrong.


I haven't would up in a situation with anyone trying to use shape change, but if I do I'm probably going to require them to do substantial research to be familiar enough to do more than take the shape of a creature; probably I'll several levels of familiarity, where the first allows the player to take on the appearance/shape but not gain anything else and the last finishes with all of the abilities that polymorph would normally give. On top of that I may toss on an additional penalty: the shape that we wear tends to dominate your thinking and being after a time; it's a common theme in fantasy as to why wizards might not use shape change often or at all.

of course, that's a different thread....

And your well within your rights as a DM to do that. Just write out the rules and tell the players during character creation.

Jayabalard
2007-03-20, 02:40 PM
It never hurts to be polite.

And to ask them to desist before trying to screw them to make a point.Agreed... "Suck it Mr. DM." doesn't count as being polite though.

The DM in the example above with Bob the wizard on the other hand, is being quite polite in pointing out that the player cannot have heard of a particular creature. Arbitrary DM rulings like this, as long as it is in the best interest of the game, are always ok by me.

Jayabalard
2007-03-20, 02:50 PM
Sure. And it doesn't belong in a RAW debate at all ever. The DM should also refrain from changing the rules after the game has started. Should refrain perhaps, but not "never change the rules after the game has started". It's better to head of problems immediately, and that means making rulings on the spot; ruling that a player cannot of heard of a particular rare creature because it doesn't appear in books, isn't spoken of by those few who have seen or met with one over the millennia, and he has never met any of those few people is not out of line in the slightest. It's no different than ruling that you can't use knowledge to know what's in "the book that man is not meant to see" that has never been opened.


How would you like it if I decided one day that fighters got d4 HD's instead of d10's and you were a level 20 fighter?If that is in the best interest of the game, then it doesn't bother me at all. Somehow, I can't see any "for the best interest of the game" reason for that arbitrary change though... so it's not even a very good strawman.

ravenkith
2007-03-20, 02:54 PM
Hey Tip.

Good seeing ya again.

I didn't mean to open up this can of worms, but it is raising some interesting discussion.

I'd like to point out, Tippy, that I haven't changed the rules. I'm simply offering a suggestion of how to deal with a player who's end-all, be-all answer is polymorph, etc.

The knowledge skill description gives rules on how to answer questions about various things, up to and including, in certain cases, various different types of animal.

IT DOES NOT, AT ANY TIME, SPECIFICALLY STATE THAT THE SKILL ALLOWS YOU TO ACCURATELY POLYMORPH INTO THE CREATURE IN QUESTION.

It is intended to allow you to go:
"Oh, this thing has green skin and heals really fast. It must be a troll. Trolls can be hurt badly by fire or acid." (By the way, per the rules, that description would require three seperate successful Knowledge checks at a minimum DC of 17).

The DC of these checks are not fixed. The skill only includes guidelines. If I let you use the skill to do polymorph, etc, I will set the DC appropriate to how common the critter is and how freely available to you the information is.

Could be 11, could be 73. You don't know, and it's my call, or so the rule itself tells us.

3. If you don't let me read the background before the game starts, it isn't your background. I would never approve a past that includes a menagerie for any player (why are you adventuring if your family was that rich and powerful?), and if I did, I would either work with the player to select what specific monsters were contained therein, or I would roll them up randomly and just tell him, before the game got started.

4. Some critter forms just aren't friendly to wizards. If it's not the spell components thing, it's the inability to speak. If it's not speech that's the problem, it's lacking the ability to perform the correct somatic guestures, usually based on a complete lack of fingers.

At higher levels, even allowing spell components for up to a gold piece in value (from eschew materials, natch), the spell components thing is a real bear to get around sometimes, as some of the best spells require expensive components (or in the case of a divine/arcane hybrid, a divine focus).

Most of this is covered by stuff that's in the PHB, DMG, or SRD.

NullAshton
2007-03-20, 03:03 PM
Simple thing to prevent abuses in your game.... if the players can use it, so can the DM. And the DM can abuse things a LOT MORE than your players can.

hewhosaysfish
2007-03-20, 03:20 PM
I'm fine with that. The problem is a DM just going "No, you can't use Shapechange to change into X because I never realized that it could do that before and I don't want you having that power".

There are only three possible circumstances where a GM will ever say this:
1) The player picked up a couple of spells that looked good and was as startled as anyone else when the combination of the two one-shotted a dragon. Since the player was never expecting this power, they won't mind losing it much. No problem here.
2) The player had this build planned and told the GM about they cunning synergy of its element. If the GM didn't put his foot down at campaign start, he's a muppet and deserves the shaft. No problem here.
3) The player came up with the uber-build of gorgonzola grade cheese that is perfectly legal under the proposed house-rules for the campaign and only requires him to Polymorph into a Vdgjvc, then didn't tell the GM instead cobbling together a backstory about guarding caravans on the Qgfdsd plains. When the GM glances over the backstory and says "Looks okay" the player responds "Bwahaha! You've fallen into my trap you fool! The Qgfdsd plains are infested with Vdjgvc! A Polymorph into one and rule the world! Mwahahahaha!"
This is the problem. And I don't think it's the GMs fault.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-20, 03:21 PM
Agreed... "Suck it Mr. DM." doesn't count as being polite though.

The DM in the example above with Bob the wizard on the other hand, is being quite polite in pointing out that the player cannot have heard of a particular creature. Arbitrary DM rulings like this, as long as it is in the best interest of the game, are always ok by me.

If the DM told Bob when he was looking at the shapechange power that he had to meet X criteria to transform into X creature then there is no problem. The problem arises when the DM tells Bob that he can't use the spell like the RAW says it works for no other reason then the DM thinks its overpowered.


Should refrain perhaps, but not "never change the rules after the game has started". It's better to head of problems immediately, and that means making rulings on the spot; ruling that a player cannot of heard of a particular rare creature because it doesn't appear in books, isn't spoken of by those few who have seen or met with one over the millennia, and he has never met any of those few people is not out of line in the slightest. It's no different than ruling that you can't use knowledge to know what's in "the book that man is not meant to see" that has never been opened.
Incorrect. Where does the DM get the ability to tell a PC what he does or does not know? Especially if he has approved a backstory the implies such knowledge quite clearly. Or perhaps the wizard learned it at wizard school. That is the kind of thing knowledge checks are supposed to simulate. The DM changing the rules all of the sudden is a very annoying move.

As for the book, just make it a DC 500 knowledge check or something similar and its all good. But monsters have set knowledge checks by the rules. If the player can make that check then they know about said creature, per RAW.


If that is in the best interest of the game, then it doesn't bother me at all. Somehow, I can't see any "for the best interest of the game" reason for that arbitrary change though... so it's not even a very good strawman.The game doesn't matter at all. The objective is so that the players and the DM have fun. The DM changing the rules because he couldn't imagine the players doing X just ruins the players fun. If the DM really doesn't like it then he can come to you away from the game and provide a solution that is fun for both the player and DM (extra levels, a unique item, or some other ingame thing).




Hey Tip.

Good seeing ya again.

I didn't mean to open up this can of worms, but it is raising some interesting discussion.

I'd like to point out, Tippy, that I haven't changed the rules. I'm simply offering a suggestion of how to deal with a player who's end-all, be-all answer is polymorph, etc.

The knowledge skill description gives rules on how to answer questions about various things, up to and including, in certain cases, various different types of animal.

IT DOES NOT, AT ANY TIME, SPECIFICALLY STATE THAT THE SKILL ALLOWS YOU TO ACCURATELY POLYMORPH INTO THE CREATURE IN QUESTION.
Yep. Per RAW the caster just has to be familiar with the creature. "My master took me on a grand tour of the multiverse and showed me all of these great creatures to turn into" is perfectly fine for familiar. I read about it in a book that had a picture also falls within the definition of familiar.

The player is free to say what their character is familiar with and what they aren't. The most RAW restriction that the DM can implement is a knowledge check.

Even if you go with the studied carefully description from teleport it can be backstoried in easily.


It is intended to allow you to go:
"Oh, this thing has green skin and heals really fast. It must be a troll. Trolls can be hurt badly by fire or acid." (By the way, per the rules, that description would require three seperate successful Knowledge checks at a minimum DC of 17).

The DC of these checks are not fixed. The skill only includes guidelines. If I let you use the skill to do polymorph, etc, I will set the DC appropriate to how common the critter is and how freely available to you the information is.

Could be 11, could be 73. You don't know, and it's my call, or so the rule itself tells us.

3. If you don't let me read the background before the game starts, it isn't your background. I would never approve a past that includes a menagerie for any player (why are you adventuring if your family was that rich and powerful?), and if I did, I would either work with the player to select what specific monsters were contained therein, or I would roll them up randomly and just tell him, before the game got started.And you woudl be well within your rights to do such a thing. But its a houserule and not relevant to a RAW debate.

I have hundreds of houserules that I use for games outside of my RL ones. Most the players don't know about because they don't affect them at all. And I just tell online groups them, don't use something cheesy unless you want to see what I can do with the RAW.

Few players ever choose to do anything really cheesy. And if they do something a bit outside of what I allow then I PM them and ask them to not do it anymore.


And absolutely none of that has any bearing on a RAW debate.


4. Some critter forms just aren't friendly to wizards. If it's not the spell components thing, it's the inability to speak. If it's not speech that's the problem, it's lacking the ability to perform the correct somatic guestures, usually based on a complete lack of fingers.

At higher levels, even allowing spell components for up to a gold piece in value (from eschew materials, natch), the spell components thing is a real bear to get around sometimes, as some of the best spells require expensive components (or in the case of a divine/arcane hybrid, a divine focus).

Most of this is covered by stuff that's in the PHB, DMG, or SRD.Yeah. And most forms that a wizard would shape into have such things. The choker has 5 fingers and a mouth. Its also the size of a halfling.

You can't reasonably rule that a wizard loses spell casting in that form.

EDIT: @^
And the DM should say "Great. Meet Mr. DM NPC" He happened to do the exact same thing as you except hes level 50. He uses an Epic Hold Monster spell that doesn't allow a save or you to cast any spells. He then uses Programmed Amnesia to completely alter your past so you believe that you grew up as a cow **** smeller in Random Town 2.

Mr. DM NPC then uses another epic spell to make it so your mind can't be changed back. He did all of this because he doesn't want anyone else to be a threat to his power. Or he realized that if allowed to continue then the whole world woudl be destroyed 20 years down the road.

The whole party now forgets that MR. DM PC ever existed. Do too yet another epic spell.

The DM is well within his rights to do the above. And I would do it in a heart beat. If the player wants to whine then let them. If they want to quit say "don't let the door hit you on the way out". And next campaign you will houserule that combination X isn't allowed.


Do you get the idea? One is within the rules. The other isn't.

ravenkith
2007-03-20, 03:46 PM
Chokers don't have hands.

They have tentacles, as per the stat block.

Jayabalard
2007-03-20, 03:49 PM
Incorrect. Where does the DM get the ability to tell a PC what he does or does not know? Especially if he has approved a backstory the implies such knowledge quite clearly. Or perhaps the wizard learned it at wizard school. That is the kind of thing knowledge checks are supposed to simulate. The DM changing the rules all of the sudden is a very annoying move.it comes from the same place as "No, you can't use a knowledge check to know what the full on plans of the BBEG that you haven't even met yet". or just "no, you can't use a knowledge check to know something about a creature that has never been discovered"

I'm not sure where you're getting the "has approved a backstory the implies such knowledge quite clearly." ... the original example with Bob didn't mention any backstory.


As for the book, just make it a DC 500 knowledge check or something similar and its all good. But monsters have set knowledge checks by the rules. If the player can make that check then they know about said creature, per RAW.Actually, they are guidelines for those knowledge checks... not rules, as are all knowledge checks. That's what "in general" means. "In general" does not mean "always".


The game doesn't matter at all. The objective is so that the players and the DM have fun. agreed; and in order for everyone to have fun everyone is going to have to be flexible, and that the GM will have to make rulings that keep the game world consistent. For example, not allowing people to shapechange into creatures that they would have no way to have known about keeps the game world more consistent, and heads off possible abuse without ever having to be a vindictive GM.


Yep. Per RAW the caster just has to be familiar with the creature. "My master took me on a grand tour of the multiverse and showed me all of these great creatures to turn into" is perfectly fine for familiar. I read about it in a book that had a picture also falls within the definition of familiar.
In the first case, I would not have approved that back story; nor would I allow a player to retcon it in with any amount of knowledge check.

In the second case, I would rule that if you made a knowledge check you could turn into something that appeared the similar to the artist's rendition, but since you lack any knowledge about the actual nature of the creature you gain nothing else but that appearance. If it's a rare enough creature, I might say "no, you didn't; it's not in any of the books in any wizard library"


The player is free to say what their character is familiar with and what they aren't. The most RAW restriction that the DM can implement is a knowledge check.Nope; a player cannot automatically retcon their backstory. And a GM can assign any DC that they want to a knowledge check, or simply rule that it is unknowable to that player based on their backstory or because the knowledge that the player wants.


And I just tell online groups them, don't use something cheesy unless you want to see what I can do with the RAW.a poorer solution imo than instant rulings and nerfage by the DM to preserve game balance and consistency.

Marius
2007-03-20, 03:52 PM
Chokers don't have hands.

They have tentacles, as per the stat block.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm

These vicious little predators lurk underground, grabbing whatever prey happens by. Its hands and feet have spiny pads that help the choker grip almost any surface. The creature weighs about 35 pounds.

Sure, the fingers are like tentacles but tentacles are usually even more flexible than fingers.

ravenkith
2007-03-20, 03:58 PM
Yes, I noticed that. But since it has a tentacle attack, they can't very well be hands, or else it would have a slam, no?

Obviously the two contradict...and doesn't table trump text?

Problem solved, vis a vis the choker.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-20, 04:02 PM
it comes from the same place as "No, you can't use a knowledge check to know what the full on plans of the BBEG that you haven't even met yet". or just "no, you can't use a knowledge check to know something about a creature that has never been discovered"

I'm not sure where you're getting the "has approved a backstory the implies such knowledge quite clearly." ... the original example with Bob didn't mention any backstory.

Actually, they are guidelines for those knowledge checks... not rules, as are all knowledge checks. That's what "in general" means. "In general" does not mean "always".
*sigh*

The only restriction on what you can polymorph into is a fluff restriction and doesn't belong in a RAW debate. Familiar is not a RAW term. Mechanically Shapechange lets you turn into any creature with the same amount of HD as you (or less). That is all I happen to care about. Any fluff restrictions can be gotten around through backstory.


agreed; and in order for everyone to have fun everyone is going to have to be flexible, and that the GM will have to make rulings that keep the game world consistent. For example, not allowing people to shapechange into creatures that they would have no way to have known about keeps the game world more consistent, and heads off possible abuse without ever having to be a vindictive GM.
"My grandpappy taught me all about them". The game world stays consistent and the player turns into what he wants.



In the first case, I would not have approved that back story; nor would I allow a player to retcon it in with any amount of knowledge check.

In the second case, I would rule that if you made a knowledge check you could turn into something that appeared the similar to the artist's rendition, but since you lack any knowledge about the actual nature of the creature you gain nothing else but that appearance. If it's a rare enough creature, I might say "no, you didn't; it's not in any of the books in any wizard library"

Nope; a player cannot automatically retcon their backstory. And a GM can assign any DC that they want to a knowledge check, or simply rule that it is unknowable to that player based on their backstory.

I bolded all the times you made a DM call. 'I would" or "I might" should never appear in a RAW debate. "The rules allow" or "The rules don't allow" is all that matters in a RAW debate.

As I have said. Houserule whatever you like. Just don't bring it to a RAW debate, it has no place.


a poorer solution imo than instant rulings and nerfage by the DM to preserve game balance and consistency.

No. My action is in game and justifiable in game. Your action is an out of game change to the rules that the game world operates under. In game problems get dealt with in game and out of game problems get dealt with out of game.

martyboy74
2007-03-20, 04:03 PM
Obviously the two contradict...and doesn't table trump text?
Um...actually, text trumps table.:smallwink:

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-20, 04:03 PM
Yes, I noticed that. But since it has a tentacle attack, they can't very well be hands, or else it would have a slam, no?

Obviously the two contradict...and doesn't table trump text?

Problem solved, vis a vis the choker.
Text Trumps Table. In all cases unless errata says different.

ravenkith
2007-03-20, 04:16 PM
Text Trumps Table. In all cases unless errata says different.

Crap. I always get that backward.

Well in that case, those spiny, pointy pads that are strong enough to allow it to climb any surface? That are big & plentiful enough to deal damage similar to that of armor spikes?

They impede the choker in the performing the precise and measured movements required in spell casting, as per the description of somatic components.

Alter self has a nice little section about "must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components." in regards to keeping spell casting ability.

If he's got armor spikes in his hands....I'm thinking 'fine and precise' just ain't gonna happen.

Thoughts? Comments?

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-20, 04:25 PM
Whoever said they were strong? The fluff just says that they are spiny. Never that they are armored or anything else.

And they have a Dex of 14.

And look at the picture of one in the SRD.

Woot Spitum
2007-03-20, 04:28 PM
There are only three possible circumstances where a GM will ever say this:
1) The player picked up a couple of spells that looked good and was as startled as anyone else when the combination of the two one-shotted a dragon. Since the player was never expecting this power, they won't mind losing it much. No problem here.
2) The player had this build planned and told the GM about they cunning synergy of its element. If the GM didn't put his foot down at campaign start, he's a muppet and deserves the shaft. No problem here.
3) The player came up with the uber-build of gorgonzola grade cheese that is perfectly legal under the proposed house-rules for the campaign and only requires him to Polymorph into a Vdgjvc, then didn't tell the GM instead cobbling together a backstory about guarding caravans on the Qgfdsd plains. When the GM glances over the backstory and says "Looks okay" the player responds "Bwahaha! You've fallen into my trap you fool! The Qgfdsd plains are infested with Vdjgvc! A Polymorph into one and rule the world! Mwahahahaha!"
This is the problem. And I don't think it's the GMs fault.

The problem isn't the player turning into a Vdgvc, the problem is the player turning into a choker, solar, or a dragon, all of which are core monsters. Most DM's will have, by level 15, thrown at least one dragon encounter. If killing a monster doesn't grant familiarity, then the player probably isn't "familiar" with any monsters. Which means the spell only works if you wrote monster familiarity into your background.

A further problem is the fact that wizards have access to a great deal of knowledge. Not familiar with any good monsters? Then head for the great library in Arcanis, city of mages. I'm sure you'll find reference to more than a few powerful monsters.

Finally, I think a lot of people are forgetting that the issue isn't what a DM should allow, but that certain aspects of the RAW are kinda broken. You can't argue that there are ways to beat the brokenness, get rebutted, and then respond, "Well no sane DM would allow that anyway," and expect that to settle things.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-20, 04:57 PM
Reading through this gave me a brilliant plot for killing an epic wizard.

An epic chameleon that focuses on intelligence. No, really.

He could bluff/diplomacy/mundane disguise his way close to the wizard thanks to ability boons and a huge skill pool, then use a variety of good buffs on himself via divine and arcane aptitudes while "helping" the wizard before getting close enough to one-shot the unsuspecting old man after switching to the combat and stealth aptitudes (20 minute change). It would require extreme patience in waiting for just the right opportunity, but catching a wizard completely offguard at 0-range is certainly the best (if not only) way for a non-caster to beat a wizard.

It's an awful lot of work and requires a certain amount of luck, though. And if there's any mistep along the way, the agent's toast.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-20, 05:02 PM
Crap. I always get that backward.

Well in that case, those spiny, pointy pads that are strong enough to allow it to climb any surface? That are big & plentiful enough to deal damage similar to that of armor spikes?

They impede the choker in the performing the precise and measured movements required in spell casting, as per the description of somatic components.
Uh... huh. When a DRAGON with its GIANT CLAWS can still do it just fine.
C'mon.


Alter self has a nice little section about "must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components." in regards to keeping spell casting ability.

If he's got armor spikes in his hands....I'm thinking 'fine and precise' just ain't gonna happen.

Thoughts? Comments?
They're hands. The spikes are inside your magical gloves, anyway. All sorts of monsters can and do cast spells; the choker wouldn't suddenly be an exception.


About banning backstories which feature familiarity with powerful monsters, not letting scrying or knowledge checks cont, et cetera... this is not "using the rules to prevent abuse". This is exactly the same as house-ruling "you can't Polymorph into X, Y, and Z." It does NOT mean that Polymorph isn't broken, it means that you have to change it to fix it.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-20, 05:03 PM
Reading through this gave me a brilliant plot for killing an epic wizard.

An epic chameleon that focuses on intelligence. No, really.

He could bluff/diplomacy/mundane disguise his way close to the wizard thanks to ability boons and a huge skill pool, then use a variety of good buffs on himself via divine and arcane aptitudes while "helping" the wizard before getting close enough to one-shot the unsuspecting old man after switching to the combat and stealth aptitudes (20 minute change). It would require extreme patience in waiting for just the right opportunity, but catching a wizard completely offguard at 0-range is certainly the best (if not only) way for a non-caster to beat a wizard.

It's an awful lot of work and requires a certain amount of luck, though. And if there's any mistep along the way, the agent's toast.
See. Thats the kind of thing you do. And even that can be stopped by a truly paranoid wizard. Mind Probe all people you let close to you. Or rebuild them with Programmed Amnesia.

Woot Spitum
2007-03-20, 05:47 PM
Crap. I always get that backward.

Well in that case, those spiny, pointy pads that are strong enough to allow it to climb any surface? That are big & plentiful enough to deal damage similar to that of armor spikes?

They impede the choker in the performing the precise and measured movements required in spell casting, as per the description of somatic components.

Alter self has a nice little section about "must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components." in regards to keeping spell casting ability.

If he's got armor spikes in his hands....I'm thinking 'fine and precise' just ain't gonna happen.

Thoughts? Comments?

Golems have hands. So do mummies and zombies. All these creatures also possess slam attacks. Having a slam attack doesn't prevent fine manipulation, it merely describes the natural attack of a creature that lacks sharp teeth, claws, spines, etc. It does not mean you have tentacles, although tentacles are capable of delivering slams.

I always thought the choker's "spikes" were more like a gecko's pads, allowing it to easily climb things, but not to damage things.

Jayabalard
2007-03-20, 05:50 PM
The only restriction on what you can polymorph into is a fluff restriction and doesn't belong in a RAW debate. If you say so, though it's odd that you've been debating the RAW of it.

I thought I was being pretty specific that RAW is nothing but a guideline that can and should be overruled as needed by the GM, even if it's not spelled out at the beginning of the game; if a player is starting to become abusive, a GM should instead immediately stop and deal with the player out of the game (like the GM did in original example with Bob) rather than getting into a vindictive pissing contest over who can be the most abusive with the rules.

It was mostly in response to your "suck it DM" attitude, which seems to be carried over to GMing, as in "don't use something cheesy unless you want to see what I can do with the RAW."

That debate seems about as relevant to a building a superwizard build as the debate on how polymorph works. If they go for some sort of polymorph abuse they should be aware that it's possible that their GM will just flat overrule it regardless of how it works by RAW.

Jack Mann
2007-03-20, 07:23 PM
Exactly. That's very much the case, Jay. At least for Bears and I. We have no objection to people changing the RAW as they see fit for their games. I have a lot of house rules, and so does Bears. We just object to people saying that the rules aren't broken, then giving their own house rules as justification. The fact that they must be fixed is an indication that they are broken.

Now, a few other points. Tippy, there are parts here where I disagree. A character's backstory is subject to limitations set by the DM and setting. If a particular creature simply doesn't exist anywhere in the world, and planar travel isn't common, then a DM is justified in saying that you can't have seen a given creature. This is a house rule, certainly. But it's a reasonable one, I think.

As for changing rules after the game has begun, this is sometimes necessary. If something is making the game less fun for everyone involved, then it's the DM's duty to change that. Certainly, he should tell his players, and if their characters are built around the broken bit, he should give them a chance to rebuild. If a character is using a broken spell like polymorph, let the player choose a different fourth level spell. If a character is using a broken feat like craft contingent spell, let him get a different feat in place of it. But don't the game shouldn't be screwed up just because the game's already begun. Keeping balance is already a tough job. It shouldn't be made any harder.

Stevenson
2007-03-20, 07:25 PM
Two words:

Gnome. Illusionist.

Now, before you die of laughter, you may take a look at some racial substitution goodness. You can cast ventriloquism (one of the more powerful utility spells, I think anyway) as a zero level spell, for example. And illusions are kick-awesome anyway.

martyboy74
2007-03-20, 07:27 PM
Two words:

Gnome. Illusionist.

Now, before you die of laughter, you may take a look at some racial substitution goodness. You can cast ventriloquism (one of the more powerful utility spells, I think anyway) as a zero level spell, for example. And illusions are kick-awesome anyway.
Have you heard of the killer gnome? (Or is it shadow gnome? The one guy who has 120% real shadow spells.)

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-20, 07:29 PM
Exactly. That's very much the case, Jay. At least for Bears and I. We have no objection to people changing the RAW as they see fit for their games. I have a lot of house rules, and so does Bears. We just object to people saying that the rules aren't broken, then giving their own house rules as justification. The fact that they must be fixed is an indication that they are broken.
I feel the same.


Now, a few other points. Tippy, there are parts here where I disagree. A character's backstory is subject to limitations set by the DM and setting. If a particular creature simply doesn't exist anywhere in the world, and planar travel isn't common, then a DM is justified in saying that you can't have seen a given creature. This is a house rule, certainly. But it's a reasonable one, I think.
Oh its certainly reasonable. I would veto such a backstory in an instant. But that doesn't matter at all for purposes of the debate :smallwink:. Its a housrule.


As for changing rules after the game has begun, this is sometimes necessary. If something is making the game less fun for everyone involved, then it's the DM's duty to change that. Certainly, he should tell his players, and if their characters are built around the broken bit, he should give them a chance to rebuild. If a character is using a broken spell like polymorph, let the player choose a different fourth level spell. If a character is using a broken feat like craft contingent spell, let him get a different feat in place of it. But don't the game shouldn't be screwed up just because the game's already begun. Keeping balance is already a tough job. It shouldn't be made any harder.

I can come up with maybe 3 instances where it is really necessary. Most of the time you can fix it in game. Even if it screams of blatant DM cheese (such as sending Mr. DM NPC to fix it) it is still an in game fix and it doesn't change the rules that the game world operates on at all.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-20, 07:34 PM
...how on earth is an awkward in-game fix superior to an out-of-game fix?

martyboy74
2007-03-20, 07:35 PM
...how on earth is an awkward in-game fix superior to an out-of-game fix?
Magically?

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-20, 07:42 PM
...how on earth is an awkward in-game fix superior to an out-of-game fix?
Because out of game fixes change the rules of the game. In game fixes don't.

And I've never had to deal with bad players doing broken things so I've never really had to think about it.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-20, 07:45 PM
Because out of game fixes change the rules of the game. In game fixes don't.
Yeah. So? Quite frankly, the rules of the game blow goats for pocket change, in a lot of places.
Out-of-game fixes are less likely to go wrong, since they're a matter of either group agreement or authority; in-game fixes invite people to worm their way around them in-game. In-game fixes of the kind you describe just kind of promote a DM-vs.-PC mindset.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-20, 07:47 PM
Perhaps. As I said, I've never had to really think about it. My players behave and know how much cheese is allowed.

The_Werebear
2007-03-20, 08:15 PM
It is entirely possible to combine the two..

OOC: This is too cheesy. Desist in the future.

IC: The one time you pulled it off and turned into a troll with Polymorph was a small wild magic zone. It is doubtful that you will every be able to do it again. The spell you thought did that to you is actually X

Marius
2007-03-20, 09:13 PM
Yes, I noticed that. But since it has a tentacle attack, they can't very well be hands, or else it would have a slam, no?

Obviously the two contradict...and doesn't table trump text?

Problem solved, vis a vis the choker.

Warforged have a slam attack and they can be wizards without any problem. There is nothing in the book that tells you that a creature with slam attacks (or any other) can wield magic. If you want to do it fine but it's not RAW.

Jack Mann
2007-03-20, 09:39 PM
I think his point is that if it could be perform the somatic components, it would have a slam, rather than a tentacle attack.

Poppycock, of course. If you look at the picture of the choker, you can see that they have hands. It's just that their "arms" are actually boneless tentacles, with knobs of cartilage for the joints. They still have sufficient fingers and dexterity.

kamikasei
2007-03-20, 09:41 PM
Okay people, let's try to keep straight whether we're saying something can or can't <whatever>. I'm looking at you Marius, but for some reason a lot of people seem to be doing this lately. It makes posts really hard to follow.

Anyway... is everyone else misunderstanding ravenkith, or is it just me? As I read it her point was that since a choker has a tentacle attack, and since monsters with hands (like warforged and zombies) tend to have slam attacks, therefore chokers didn't have hands. If they had hands, their attacks would be slam attacks and not tentacle attacks. Yes? Have I misunderstood, ravenkith?

(Not that I necessarily agree; it's just that a lot of people seem to be responding to say "but other things which have slam attacks can be wizards!"... which is utterly backwards.)

edit: Damn you Jack Mann. I will have revenge.

Nowhere Girl
2007-03-21, 12:08 AM
I got as far as page 3 before I gave up, but I really did learn a lot.

'Kay, how's this:

Skillmonkey intelligence-based rogue/shadowdancer (I happen to believe intelligence, not dexterity, is the rogue primary stat ... dexterity is the secondary one) with use magic device (along with almost every other skill in the book :smallbiggrin:) ... scroll of contact other plane ("Where is Wizard X?" and "Is Wizard X whom I'm planning to kill going to know I'm coming?") ... sneak up on wizard (gather information if you need more specific "Where is Wizard X right now?" information) ... scroll of time stop (surprise negates any chance of an immediate action to counter it) ... scroll of Mordenkainen's disjunction on the wizard and goodbye all contingencies and probably all magic items too (the latter is bad, but if you're being paid well for the assassination, you'll be happy, and besides, you can always take nonmagical-but-nice goodies, like the spellbook, along with anything the wizard had packed away elsewhere for safekeeping) ... toss a small, almost innocuous animal from a gray bag of tricks (just to be insulting), hide again, and ready an action to attack the instant the wizard attempts to cast anything.

Any spell provokes your readied action, and your massive sneak attack damage pretty much ensures a failed concentration check. If you want to be sure, have dragon bile or black lotus extract or something equally nasty that requires a fortitude save (which wizards are poor at) applied, and of course crippling strike increases the odds of dragon bile resulting in an immediate downed and helpless wizard (dragon bile plus crippling strike on a single sneak attack is an average of 12.5 points of strength damage, which is far more than most unbuffed wizards, especially min-maxed optimized wizards, have). If you also have the feat staggering strike, the wizard is also staggered, but that isn't really necessary. None of the wizard's goodies like foresight or contingency help at all because they were all disjoined. If the wizard isn't already down by now, your little Badger of Death moves to flank, and you proceed to do a full round of sneak attacks against a wizard whose AC-boosting gear and spells are all gone.

I hate this, by the way. I hate that what should be a roleplaying game has come to this. But fine, since I always liked rogues best, I played my rogue card in this horrible game of "craft the perfect winning strategy." It's a crude first draft. I hope never to refine it.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-21, 12:09 AM
scroll of time stop (surprise negates any chance of an immediate action to counter it)

Not with Foresight, it doesn't. You also can't use Disjunction on someon during a Time Stop.


Edit: it hasn't "come to this". Nobody's making you try to come up with ways to kill a paranoid high-level wizard.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-21, 12:18 AM
I got as far as page 3 before I gave up, but I really did learn a lot.

'Kay, how's this:

Skillmonkey intelligence-based rogue/shadowdancer (I happen to believe intelligence, not dexterity, is the rogue primary stat ... dexterity is the secondary one) with use magic device (along with almost every other skill in the book :smallbiggrin:) ... scroll of contact other plane ("Where is Wizard X?" and "Is Wizard X whom I'm planning to kill going to know I'm coming?") ... sneak up on wizard (gather information if you need more specific "Where is Wizard X right now?" information) ... scroll of time stop (surprise negates any chance of an immediate action to counter it) ... scroll of Mordenkainen's disjunction on the wizard and goodbye all contingencies and probably all magic items too (the latter is bad, but if you're being paid well for the assassination, you'll be happy, and besides, you can always take nonmagical-but-nice goodies, like the spellbook, along with anything the wizard had packed away elsewhere for safekeeping) ... toss a small, almost innocuous animal from a gray bag of tricks (just to be insulting), hide again, and ready an action to attack the instant the wizard attempts to cast anything.
Try it. CoP won't get you the wizards location. Yes or No answers. And where the wizard is now is rarely where the wizard will be by the time you reach him. Foresight negates a surprise round and disjunction can't be used inside a timestop. And thats all without even really thinking about any wizard counters.


Any spell provokes your readied action, and your massive sneak attack damage pretty much ensures a failed concentration check. If you want to be sure, have dragon bile or black lotus extract or something equally nasty that requires a fortitude save (which wizards are poor at) applied, and of course crippling strike increases the odds of dragon bile resulting in an immediate downed and helpless wizard (dragon bile plus crippling strike on a single sneak attack is an average of 12.5 points of strength damage, which is far more than most unbuffed wizards, especially min-maxed optimized wizards, have). If you also have the feat staggering strike, the wizard is also staggered, but that isn't really necessary. None of the wizard's goodies like foresight or contingency help at all because they were all disjoined. If the wizard isn't already down by now, your little Badger of Death moves to flank, and you proceed to do a full round of sneak attacks against a wizard whose AC-boosting gear and spells are all gone.
Nothings disjoined. And whats to stop my contingency from going off when you use Disjunction to get me out of range? My Heavy Fortification Shield protects me from your sneak attack and poison isn't really worth it.


I hate this, by the way. I hate that what should be a roleplaying game has come to this. But fine, since I always liked rogues best, I played my rogue card in this horrible game of "craft the perfect winning strategy." It's a crude first draft. I hope never to refine it.


Its better than some attempts but it still doesn't stand any real chance.

Nowhere Girl
2007-03-21, 12:20 AM
Not with Foresight, it doesn't. You also can't use Disjunction on someon during a Time Stop.

Oh. I hate to say these two words, but ... you're right.

Funny, but I never knew before just how obscenely overpowered wizards could really be. I knew they were bad, but I didn't realize they were this bad.

Maybe I need an arcane trickster. I hate that, though. I already knew they were overpowered, and besides, that's just beating a wizard with another wizard. :smallyuk:

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-21, 12:24 AM
That's why my answer entirely involved mundane skill manipulation. It's the only thing a wizard might have trouble countering, and then it's all up to luck of the dice and favorable scenarios. The moment a wizard's on to you, he's wearing your skin as a +5 magic armor.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-21, 12:27 AM
Funny, but I never knew before just how obscenely overpowered wizards could really be. I knew they were bad, but I didn't realize they were this bad.


You want bad?
It's possible to teleport during a Time Stop.

A wizard can scry an enemy, Time Stop, teleport over, drop a Dimensional Lock on them, Time Stop again to get more time, throw an Acid Fog and a Cloudkill down, then cast a third Time Stop if they need more time, add Silence on a rock, and put a Prismatic Sphere around them, move out of the Dimensional Lock, and teleport away.

No one will ever know they were there. Someone will just suddenly be trapped in a Prismatic Sphere with deadly contents.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-21, 12:31 AM
"I hear that wizard a few continents away has really been a prick lately."
"Yeah. I think I might kill him if he ever comes here."
*one moment later*
"Sweet Jesus, where's my lungs? Oh god oh god oh god I am on fire and breathing liquid acid! Why has my life suddenly become pain?!"

marjan
2007-03-21, 02:45 AM
hmmm.... when you double something that has already been doubled, do you change the multiplier to x3 instead?

that would make for a more sane calculation with high numbers of creatures.

Well in DMG this doesn't fall under "two doubles make a triple" rule. Specificaly they have example with four lvl 8 fighters (CR8 each) and together they have CR 12.

Sir Giacomo
2007-03-21, 06:45 AM
Hi again,

guess I have to join NullAshton, ravenkith and Jayabalard's side here, but let me try first to defuse some aspects of the debate.

Emperor Tippy, you posted further up that you and BWL would not make use (neither as DMs nor as players) any of the spells you consider overpowered in your campaigns. And this means that broadly we all share a similar outlook on the game, in that it should be somehow balanced and fun for everyone.
The point where we differ, it seems (and this was also my impression from the fighter and caster at high levels thread I started elsewhere), is then only a technical one: that you see the core rules as full of cheese already, but at the same time do not see the drawbacks which can allow you to solve most of the issues within the rules.
Now where I would agree is that all the different expansions, new rules and stuff are too many to really guarantee that it does not unbalance the game in one way or the other. However, I trust the zilliontime playtested core rules enough stability to solve almost everything within.

I guess that the "within-the-rules" technique to balance stuff is superior because
1) it allows to still use the spells, which sometimes (like shapechange) are highly atmospheric and
2) avoids any other consistency problems or overpowering at other points, like not allowing disjunction in the game which greatly diminishes a caster's magic vulnerability at high levels. Banning that to "help" the equipment-heavy non-casters is not really necesary, since the wealth-by-level guidelines can easily still be reached over time, plus some non-casters like a paladin and monk have great will saves (and the others can also boost it up). AND any special item, like the holy sword of the paladin or that great bow of the elven fighter that happens to still get disjuncted can be re-echanted in a different quest. It's all part of the game, imo.
3) in the case some unlimited combo arises, than just ban that particular use of the spell. Unlimited wishes or fabricate masterwork items are certainly possible as such in the rules, but they lead to a shutdown of the game. But, hey, if a player wants to turn into a solar, by all means: let him. If he also wants to cast a wish from it that somehow comes across great: why not? But since the form he uses to cast that wish is the essence of one of the gods (a solar always belongs to a certain belief) that wish must be in accordance of that deity (so up to the DM, that is not houseruling, it would be houseruling that the DM all of a sudden cannot decide on what his npcs are doing, and a god in the game certainly is one), and that deity may demand a price for it, which should be roughly balanced towards the normal use of the wish spell (after all, the deity provides the power of that wish). This is exactly what I meant by using the rules to provide balance.

Now, you may of course still use your houserules to avoide balance problems, and you are obviously also highly successful at it since you and your fellow players have fun in the game. But it is exactly that: houseruling, while NullAshotn, ravenkith, Jayabalard (correct me if I'm wrong) certainly see enough stuff in the rules to balance it out.

Finally, on to a more detailed debate in reply to Marius' earlier comments further up on what I would do on shapechange drawbacks. Aahhhh, Missterr Marius, my old nemesis, we meet ageyn, but ziss taim the edvantedge is maine...(read with Gerd Fröbe James Bond voice...):smallbiggrin:



They are not in the rules. You somehow think that houseruling is in the rules but it's not. And it's ok to house rule but I don't get why you have such a hard time to accept that you have to house rule the game.


Because certainly banning spells IS a houserule, while even the effort to research the rules and finding stuff to balance the game within it is much less houseruling, and I would even argue (as ravenkith) that the rules are fine here.



Size And Magic Items
So as you can see, magic items can be adjusted for almost any creature, and the choker has a general humanoid body so I don't see why he can wield magic items just as any other race. A choker could easily wear rings, amulets, bracers, cloaks, robes or headbands.
The only exception in the rules are specific racial items.

It was already said further up: MOST of the times is not ALWAYS. Now I admit, that a humanoid cloak of resistance should fit even on a choker (may make him trip over it once in a while, but it is certainly functional. Or the caster-turned-choker simply tugs the loose ends into his belt or whatever. But on a dragon, now that is a different thing altogether. "racial items" also include garments, which non-humanoid monsters simply cannot wear.
Now on the choker's hands. Certainly I would not go so far as ravenkith, that a choker cannot cast spells. But it certainly cannot wear gloves of dexterity +6, which are fairly key in determining initiative and thus a key power at high-level play. Read: who cares if the choker can cast three spells per round, if the enemy caster casts two spells before him? (or the fighter slams a full arrow volley into the poor caster-turned-choker who now even has a reduced AC to boost?). Now a caster can win initiative, greater quicken rod shapechange, and then do two more actions, which is quite powerful. But while he stays a choker, he has the drawbacks outlined.
Finally, ravenkith further up has made a great analysis with his fictional bob dialogue how many problems one encounters as a morphed caster when the non-magical items did NOT resize...



Everything you wrote is made up. Even if somehow it was ok to use the description of familiarity from another spell (that is a house rule), in the description of Shapechange says that you have to be "familiar" and in the description of teleport says that "VERY familiar" is a where you have been very often and that's VERY familiar, not just familiar so in the shapechange case you shouldn't need to be "very familiar" or "studied carefully" but just familiar.
Another house rule of yours is that you need 5 pieces of information to use scrying, actually in the description of "Scrying" says that you can use it even if you have NO knowledge at all as long as you have a connection.
Another point is that a wizard could easily travel to another plane and that even if he can't try scrying the same creature again he can try it with another of it's kind.
Also in the case of weak creatures like the choker a wizard could just find out where they are, go there, capure it, watch it, then dissect the poor creature and then shapechange to a choker and continue to do the same with every creature in his path.


You are right! I made it up, however not in the direction that you believe. The rules are actually quite clear in that it is NOT POSSIBLE to turn into something that you do not know. I actually tried something very close to the rules, but certainly houseruling, so that the wizard has ANY CHANCE AT ALL to use shapechange to turn into the coveted creatures. Points where I houseruled:
- the term "familiar". Now there is no RAW definition here, so the RAW is: it's up to the DM to define it! You could also use the Oxford Dictionary entry "familiar: well known, well acquainted...", but then the caster is even more in trouble.
- the problem with the first sentence of the spell "scrying", which, in combination with the table of modifiers strongly suggests that it must be a PARTICULAR creature, not simply a "show me a random choker, will ya?".
- the knowledge skill which is key that the scrying spell works at all (since if you have no knowledge, the scrying does not work at all, only if you have a "personal connection". Now you could buy in a rare magic component shop the hand of a choker or some such and then scry (showing you the decayed body of that creature through that spell), but even the availability of such a thing (since it is not a magical component for any spell or a magic item or mundane equipment) is - once again - HOUSERULE!
And the knowledge skill is highly specific on how to gain knowledge on monsters: it is only indirect through the knowledge skill of a broad area (like dungeoneering), and it will only yield single pieces of information, greatly increasing the DC for any other piece. My "5" pieces of information were highly generous HOUSERULE to even give a chance to get to "familiar".

Now do not get me wrong: a shapechange spell, even without this stuff, is still greatly powerful. You can turn into an insect to escape, free action next round into a large dragon that your party once has fought, etc. But all of this has drawbacks in the rules, even if it is powerful.



Other spells won't be unbalanced since you banned or nerfed all of them. The system playtested a million times has a million mistakes, just look at "complete psionics" and it's not like it's their first book. Or even the first "psionics handbook".

Complete psionics is not core (PHB, DMG, MM), although it is part of the SRD. I agree that the expansions/new rules being churned out every month can greatly tilt the balance, which is why they are considered optional only and often very style/campaign-specific (for instance, if you play a very typical medieval campaign, the tome of battle can tilt the balance AND create a new flavour which you may not want).
When it comes to the core rules, though, I guess that the million times playtesting did not result in million mistakes, but some loopholes ferreted out by many of the optimisation players.



And again, disjunction doesn much more damage to the non-casters and than to casters AND while a DM can't use a casters with disjunction all the time since it's unlikely that every opponent in a campaign is a high level arcane casters the players can use it all the time since the party wizard is there all the time. They don't have to worry about loot since the DM have to follow the tables and gave them the money they should have anyway.


see above my initial comments under 2).



You should really read about what you write. You can't maximize a dispel or a greater dispel, read the feat description. You can use the heighten to make a low level spell act like a higher level spell but again it doesn't work on dispel or greater dispel since they work with caster level (so rogues and bards won't be good dispellers).


I did not realise the maximise dispel was possible until a fellow player used it. Then I looked up the rules and realised: yes, it is possible! And a great way to balance out magic power at high levels (even the monsters with their often non-boosted spell powers can simply have a maximise feat to make them better opponents this way).
This is what the maximise feat says:
SRD: MAXIMIZE SPELL [METAMAGIC]
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.

Guess what? A dispel magic check is NOT an opposed roll (it is a check, unlike a grapple, or opposed skill checks), but it contains a random variable. So it works. And I just noticed: the empower spell feat would work as well! But let us leave it for now only to the maximise effect:
Creatures with access to a simple dispel magic at level 11 can now dispel effects of up to lvl 21 (provided they have it as a spell, to get the 6th level spell slot needed to use the maximise feat, but you could also get a normal rod of maximising for a measly 14,000 gp), which would counter/dispel everything except the boosted core wizards of level 18-20. Now, as outlined above in a previous post, you normally have only a third of your encounters in the average campaign at lvl 11 and up who are able to dispel magic, but this should be enough to balance the game nicely (in particular since at the CR 17-20, almost ALL monsters and almost HALF of the npc classe have access to greater dispel magic, who could then dispel EVERYTHING non-epic player characters can do.)



All house rules and I don't agree with the second one.


(note: this was on my suggestion how to handle infinite loops/obvious advantages granted by RAW in campaigns: to make them apply for everyone, consistently resulting in effects nobody wants). Yes, I know (we discussed it already in another thread).
My point remains that if you fail to find anything in the rules that opposes a sudden cheese hitting the campaign (cannot foresee everything), then you should take a step back and think: what would this logically mean? If there is NO drawback of being a non-deity cleric vs MORE drawbacks of being a deity cleric, which faith do you believe will then dominate the world, in your opinion? And if (as the core rules suggest) powerful deities exist to start with, how would they react, since they depend in their power on the number of worshippers?
Guess that is up to everyone to decide for him- or herself.

- Giacomo

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-21, 06:57 AM
Sorry, Giac. Dispel Magic doesn't have any variables. Dispel magic does one of several things. One of those things involves making a dispel check. Similarily, you couldn't maximize a spell that boosts skills (like Heroism) and then get to maximize your skill checks. You can't maximize the grapple check of a Grasping Hand. Etc.
These things are checks made to determine what the spell does; they aren't direct effects of the spell itself. Otherwise you could maximize a summoned monster's attack rolls.

Rigeld2
2007-03-21, 07:03 AM
I did not realise the maximise dispel was possible until a fellow player used it. Then I looked up the rules and realised: yes, it is possible! And a great way to balance out magic power at high levels (even the monsters with their often non-boosted spell powers can simply have a maximise feat to make them better opponents this way).
This is what the maximise feat says:
SRD: MAXIMIZE SPELL [METAMAGIC]
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.

Guess what? A dispel magic check is NOT an opposed roll (it is a check, unlike a grapple, or opposed skill checks), but it contains a random variable. So it works. And I just noticed: the empower spell feat would work as well! But let us leave it for now only to the maximise effect:
Creatures with access to a simple dispel magic at level 11 can now dispel effects of up to lvl 21 (provided they have it as a spell, to get the 6th level spell slot needed to use the maximise feat, but you could also get a normal rod of maximising for a measly 14,000 gp), which would counter/dispel everything except the boosted core wizards of level 18-20. Now, as outlined above in a previous post, you normally have only a third of your encounters in the average campaign at lvl 11 and up who are able to dispel magic, but this should be enough to balance the game nicely (in particular since at the CR 17-20, almost ALL monsters and almost HALF of the npc classe have access to greater dispel magic, who could then dispel EVERYTHING non-epic player characters can do.)
Your fellow player is 100% wrong. What hes attempting to maximize is the dispel check - which you cant. Its a dispel check, not a random variable. Random variables for spells are 1d6, 2d4, etc.

You cant maximize a dispel magic, or a greater dispel magic. You cant empower it either.

Sir Giacomo
2007-03-21, 07:04 AM
Wow, fast response!

I would disagree, though. In the heroism spell description, there is no variable number, so maximise feat does not qualify. Similary, there is no variable number in the summoning monster spells.

Now "direct effects of the spell itself": If the dispel check is not a direct effect, I do not know what constitutes "direct". A fireball causes variable fire damage. A dispel magic causes a variable dispelling effect.

Guess we'll have to ask custserv for this, I think. Will try to find out the mailing address.

- Giacomo

Edit: @Rigeld: er...a dispel check uses a d, it is "1d20"
Edit 2: Ah, there is a variable in the monster summonings: the number of monsters you get for lower-level summons. Great way to use maximise!

Rigeld2
2007-03-21, 07:05 AM
Wow, fast response!

I would disagree, though. In the heroism spell description, there is no variable number, so maximise feat does not qualify. Similary, there is no variable number in the summoning moster feat.

Now "direct effects of the spell itself": If the dispel check is not a direct effect, I do not know what constitutes "direct". A fireball causes variable fire damage. A dispel magic causes a variable dispelling effect.

Guess we'll have to ask custserv for this, I think. Will try to find out the mailing address.

- Giacomo
So youd be cool with Maximezed summoned monster attack and damage rolls? According to you, theyre direct effects.

NullAshton
2007-03-21, 07:08 AM
So youd be cool with Maximezed summoned monster attack and damage rolls? According to you, theyre direct effects.

No, the direct effect would be teleporting a creature here and magically forcing it to follow your orders.

marjan
2007-03-21, 07:11 AM
The fact that they mention d20 in spell description doesn't mean that it is variable. It's just explaination what you do to make dispel check. The spell only adds certain amount on your d20 roll.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-21, 07:12 AM
Now "direct effects of the spell itself": If the dispel check is not a direct effect, I do not know what constitutes "direct". A fireball causes variable fire damage. A dispel magic causes a variable dispelling effect.
Dispel Magic lets you make a dispel attempt. A dispel check is how you decide whether or not you succeed on the attempt.
The dispel check is just that--it's a check. It's not an effect.
Maximizing the 1d4 rounds an item is suppressed could be possible.

Again: summoned monster attack and damage, a Bigby's Hand's grapple or bullrush, etc. are like this, too. Can't be maximized.


CustServ has confirmed that you can't maximize Dispel Magic in the past, incidentally. Repeatedly.

Rigeld2
2007-03-21, 07:17 AM
Edit: @Rigeld: er...a dispel check uses a d, it is "1d20"
10 points for assuming I didnt know that. Instead of just going by the SRD, why not read the PHB?
"Saving Throws and opposed rolls (such as the one you make when you cast dispel magic) are not affected, nor are spells without random variables."
Page 97.

Sir Giacomo
2007-03-21, 07:18 AM
Ah, while we're at it, you can also sudden maximise/greater metamagic rod maximise a time stop tp the full 5 rounds...

- Giacomo

Rigeld2
2007-03-21, 07:18 AM
Ah, while we're at it, you can also sudden maximise/greater metamagic rod maximise a time stop tp the full 5 rounds...

- Giacomo
...
Yes, we've said that many times before. You can't extend it tho.

Sir Giacomo
2007-03-21, 07:20 AM
10 points for assuming I didnt know that. Instead of just going by the SRD, why not read the PHB?
"Saving Throws and opposed rolls (such as the one you make when you cast dispel magic) are not affected, nor are spells without random variables."
Page 97.

OK, can't say anthing on that. I stand corrected!

The usual ways to pump up dispels (for both pcs and monsters/npc) will have to suffice...

- Giacomo

martyboy74
2007-03-21, 07:20 AM
This is a little bit late in the discussion, but I though that I'd point out that any one-word answer is acceptable from CoP (such, say, Barcelona. Look that's a place!) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm)

Saph
2007-03-21, 07:35 AM
Oh its certainly reasonable. I would veto such a backstory in an instant. But that doesn't matter at all for purposes of the debate.

Well . . . yes it does. When it comes to actual games, not UBB arguments, it matters very much.

If no sane DM will allow something in his game, then the question of whether it's legal by RAW isn't really all that important unless you're a game designer. Saying: "This build is game-breakingly powerful, just as long as you find a good DM who's willing to allow it" is kind of like saying "We're all going to be flung off the Earth and into space, just as long as the law of gravity stops working". True but not particularly relevant.

- Saph

hewhosaysfish
2007-03-21, 07:49 AM
Well . . . yes it does. When it comes to actual games, not UBB arguments, it matters very much.

If no sane DM will allow something in his game, then the question of whether it's legal by RAW isn't really all that important unless you're a game designer. Saying: "This build is game-breakingly powerful, just as long as you find a good DM who's willing to allow it" is kind of like saying "We're all going to be flung off the Earth and into space, just as long as the law of gravity stops working". True but not particularly relevant.

- Saph

Marry me, Saph.

Sir Giacomo
2007-03-21, 09:35 AM
...er...is that actually it? The dispel magic cannot be maximised, and thus rules cannot help to balance casters/wizards?

Hmmm...

...meanwhile, I also agree to Saph- but as I said at the beginning of my post, that opinion is likely shared by all. It is only technical possiblilities of balancing IF (and that's a big if) imbalances turn up during play. And as the poll on the most common playing levels seem to illustrate (most playing at the undoubtedly balanced levels 1-10), it is an even rarer occurrence.

- Giacomo